Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 08, 2023, 05:29:09 PMHow can you not know at this point. Jones was awful this year before being hurt and he has never had a truly good season in five years. It is time to move on. Especially when the team will finally be in position to get a true franchise guy. Passing on that chance would be gross negligence.

For every "Franchise Quarterback" drafted early in the first round, there's a dozen washouts. The term "FRANCHISE" is not tatooed on their forehead, and it's anybody's guess. You are rolling the dice when drafting a QB and far more often than not, the guy doesn't have what the team was hoping for. I could list dozens of busts, but everyone already knows this and know who they are. For every Mahommes, there are "can't miss prospects", like Jeff George, Vince Young, David Carr, Tim Coach, Ryan Leaf...the list goes on and on

There are years when the QB crop looks amazing, like the '83 draft with Elway, Marino, Jim Kelly, and Ken O'Brien...or '04 class with Eli, Rivers, and Roethlisberger...after that, you have to go back to 1957 when I was 4-years-old and the '57 Chevy was making its way to the showroom floor in which Len Dawson, Sonny Jurgensen, and Jack Kemp

There is NOBODY claiming this year's QB crop is even remotely in that group of those years. It's a crap shoot, and you don't know what you have until you have half your cap wrapped up in a "can't miss" Kyler Murray or JaMarcus Russell

I think you are wrong. I think this class is comparable to 2004. I think you have forgotten what good QB play looks like. So you pine for yet another chance for Jones.

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on November 08, 2023, 07:43:20 PMFor every "Franchise Quarterback" drafted early in the first round, there's a dozen washouts. The term "FRANCHISE" is not tatooed on their forehead, and it's anybody's guess. You are rolling the dice when drafting a QB and far more often than not, the guy doesn't have what the team was hoping for. I could list dozens of busts, but everyone already knows this and know who they are. For every Mahommes, there are "can't miss prospects", like Jeff George, Vince Young, David Carr, Tim Coach, Ryan Leaf...the list goes on and on

There are years when the QB crop looks amazing, like the '83 draft with Elway, Marino, Jim Kelly, and Ken O'Brien...or '04 class with Eli, Rivers, and Roethlisberger...after that, you have to go back to 1957 when I was 4-years-old and the '57 Chevy was making its way to the showroom floor in which Len Dawson, Sonny Jurgensen, and Jack Kemp

There is NOBODY claiming this year's QB crop is even remotely in that group of those years. It's a crap shoot, and you don't know what you have until you have half your cap wrapped up in a "can't miss" Kyler Murray or JaMarcus Russell

Had Justin Herbert not decided to stay in school for his Senior year, the G for Giants, G for Gettleman would have taken him over Daniel Jones with their 6th overall in 2019. Broke my heart it did. But as Dandy Don used to say, "If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas."

Cheers!

This class isn't comparable to 2004 but it is comparable to 2020 where Burrow, Herbert, Tua, and Hurts were taken.

I just don't see how anyone can watch the Qb play we've had for 5 years now and say yeah give me more of that. I get Jones is a great guy but he's a pedestrian Qb. The NFL is a passing league and Jones has never been and never will be a high volume thrower. Tyrod Taylor played better football in 2023 than Daniel Jones. That sentence should never ever be the truth if Jones is a franchise QB.

Holding onto a bad Qb for 5 years might have been ok in the 80s but man the Giants have to get with the times so that we can actually start winning. Qbs maybe get 2-3 years to prove they have it REGARDLESS of talent around them and then they are gone.

Gotta start drafting qbs immediately until we get one that changes our fortunes because it definitely will never be Daniel Jones.

I am higher on them than you. We won't know who's correct for a few years.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 08, 2023, 09:44:19 PMThis class isn't comparable to 2004 but it is comparable to 2020 where Burrow, Herbert, Tua, and Hurts were taken.

I just don't see how anyone can watch the Qb play we've had for 5 years now and say yeah give me more of that. I get Jones is a great guy but he's a pedestrian Qb. The NFL is a passing league and Jones has never been and never will be a high volume thrower. Tyrod Taylor played better football in 2023 than Daniel Jones. That sentence should never ever be the truth if Jones is a franchise QB.

Holding onto a bad Qb for 5 years might have been ok in the 80s but man the Giants have to get with the times so that we can actually start winning. Qbs maybe get 2-3 years to prove they have it REGARDLESS of talent around them and then they are gone.

Gotta start drafting qbs immediately until we get one that changes our fortunes because it definitely will never be Daniel Jones.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 08, 2023, 09:44:19 PMThis class isn't comparable to 2004 but it is comparable to 2020 where Burrow, Herbert, Tua, and Hurts were taken.

I just don't see how anyone can watch the Qb play we've had for 5 years now and say yeah give me more of that. I get Jones is a great guy but he's a pedestrian Qb. The NFL is a passing league and Jones has never been and never will be a high volume thrower. Tyrod Taylor played better football in 2023 than Daniel Jones. That sentence should never ever be the truth if Jones is a franchise QB.

Holding onto a bad Qb for 5 years might have been ok in the 80s but man the Giants have to get with the times so that we can actually start winning. Qbs maybe get 2-3 years to prove they have it REGARDLESS of talent around them and then they are gone.

Gotta start drafting qbs immediately until we get one that changes our fortunes because it definitely will never be Daniel Jones.

J: Having a bad QB is not ALONE a reason to draft a QB with a high first-round pick.

If anyone doesn't notice, I keep saying "high first-round" in most of my remarks about next year's draft.

That's because I'm not per se against drafting a QB next year.  If a guy they're 80 percent sure about falls to the 2nd or 3rd (or maybe bottom of the 1st) I've probably got no problem.

But a high 1st-rounder must be CONVINCINGLY special - he must stand out over a group of men who stand out.

If the brass agrees with me and don't see the "next Peyton" (or Elway, etc.) in this class AND they miss out on that maybe ONE special player they would have used the first overall pick on if they had it, then I don't believe it's out of the question that they might consider trading down in the 1st round for even more 2nd- or 3rd-round picks, or maybe even for a 1st in 2025.

Bob

The QBs you want are gone as is Marvin Harrison JR. What is left when you pick are :
Fashanu OT from Penn State , Latu, edge rusher from UCLA, Bowers , TE from Georgia, Alt OT from Notre Dame .

Who is your choice ?

Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on November 09, 2023, 03:26:27 AMThe QBs you want are gone as is Marvin Harrison JR. What is left when you pick are :
Fashanu OT from Penn State , Latu, edge rusher from UCLA, Bowers , TE from Georgia, Alt OT from Notre Dame .

Who is your choice ?

For me? Fashanu

Reason: we must fix the line. I think you move Neal to LG next to Thomas as Neal was more natural working on the left side of the line and after two years of trying to make a RT out of him, it doesn't seem to suit him

If not Fashanu, then Bowers

You can only draft a QB gunslinger if he is available to you.  You can't manufacture one.  Go get em but you better be right in your eval of him.

Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 08, 2023, 10:39:21 PMI am higher on them than you. We won't know who's correct for a few years.

Saying they are 2020 is not a dig at them, that 2020 class is imo the 2nd best qb class in 30+ years. That's a truly elite class.

Quote from: Bob In PA on November 08, 2023, 10:42:06 PMJ: Having a bad QB is not ALONE a reason to draft a QB with a high first-round pick.

If anyone doesn't notice, I keep saying "high first-round" in most of my remarks about next year's draft.

That's because I'm not per se against drafting a QB next year.  If a guy they're 80 percent sure about falls to the 2nd or 3rd (or maybe bottom of the 1st) I've probably got no problem.

But a high 1st-rounder must be CONVINCINGLY special - he must stand out over a group of men who stand out.

If the brass agrees with me and don't see the "next Peyton" (or Elway, etc.) in this class AND they miss out on that maybe ONE special player they would have used the first overall pick on if they had it, then I don't believe it's out of the question that they might consider trading down in the 1st round for even more 2nd- or 3rd-round picks, or maybe even for a 1st in 2025.

Bob

I get that and I agree. I don't want them to reach and if they want I'm OK with waiting a year but I think they need to acknowledge that Jones was a mistake and that we are rebuilding so people temper their expectations. Its what they should have said from the beginning even when we won last season. 

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on November 09, 2023, 08:07:50 AMFor me? Fashanu

Reason: we must fix the line. I think you move Neal to LG next to Thomas as Neal was more natural working on the left side of the line and after two years of trying to make a RT out of him, it doesn't seem to suit him

If not Fashanu, then Bowers

I would break my TV if they drafted a TE at #4.

Quote from: Philosophers on November 09, 2023, 10:34:52 AMYou can only draft a QB gunslinger if he is available to you.  You can't manufacture one.  Go get em but you better be right in your eval of him.

Is there anything more obvious than that, Joseph?
 
As Eli had just one winning season in his last 8 and went 9-26 at the end, it was not unreasonable for Gettleman to look to the Draft for a new starting QB. While by no means was everyone here happy when he used the overall No.2 pick on a RB even one as talented as Saquon, in hindsight, it doesn't seem all that likely that he would have come away with a Josh Allen instead of a Mayfield, Darnold, or Rosen or even less likely, Lamar Jackson.

While I personally believe that Gman would have grabbed Justin Herbert had he even expected him to be available the following year, I was not dismayed when he had not much choice but to take Daniel Jones with the 6th overall pick. Indeed, in watching DJ's Duke tapes where he looked like an Eli clone playing on a not very good team, I saw a lot of positives.

Even now, with his having had to play with a team with an often unimpressive lineup, with some questionable coaching, and nothing close to a history of consistently winning seasons, now compounded by serious durability concerns, I'm not interested in labeling DJ a bust, nor Schoen/Daboll for giving him the big 4-year deal.

That said, it doesn't alter the enormous challenge that all concerned now face nor make it any more certain that using whatever turns out to be their 1st Round pick on a new QB will prove to be the solution As I have said so often is that the NFL is, if nothing else, unpredictable.

Not that we need proof of such, but for Giants fans all that should be needed is to reflect on the fact that Eli Manning, whose regular season record has been described as "profoundly mediocre", somehow managed to win 2 Lombos by beating the Pats and their otherwise seemingly invincible GOAT.

Cheers!

There is an abundance of good oline prospects in this draft. No need wasting a first on one.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 09, 2023, 11:46:35 AMI get that and I agree. I don't want them to reach and if they want I'm OK with waiting a year but I think they need to acknowledge that Jones was a mistake and that we are rebuilding so people temper their expectations. Its what they should have said from the beginning even when we won last season. 

J: They need to acknowledge it to themselves (if they didn't already). I don't think they'll ever admit it to us.

Sure, most of us here would probably say OK, let's move on with the improvement phase (yet again).

But IMO they think it will hurt business over all (fewer hot dogs and paraphernalia sold, etc.) and maybe the owners don't want to criticize any acts by past employees, because that would make it even harder to hire GM's and coaches for the team than I believe it already is.

And it'd open Pandora's box (an apology might become expected even for future errors, even if inconsequential).

Last, the bunker mentality IMO will never change, not only because they may be "stubborn" in that regard, but also because almost every team operates with a bunker mentality, so they are IMO in line with the crowd (a good place for those who may not know what they're doing to hide).

Bob