Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 10:03:57 AMI will make it more concrete.  Right now, the Giants need a really good O-line coach (after a long string of really bad ones).   Being desirable both in destination and pay is how one gets a really good one rather than a string of bad ones.

Their typical behavior is just their typical behavior: nothing prevents the Giants from going over and above to get their guy. Also, the language was they pay above-market for "key assistants." Very possible that's OL coach here.

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 07:46:37 PMThe NYG PR team is doing a full-court press on Wink.  Assuming it's true, then Wink was wrong.  Still, it's hard to know what is and isn't true at this point, at least for me.

I'd think the 24 thing would be easily proven wrong if they made it up.

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 09:38:49 AMTim,

You may have noticed, but I am not one of Wink's critics.  I appreciate that Wink's defenses seemed a bit hit-or-miss and didn't hold up.   However, I hear smart people who have worked in the NFL frequently talk about the importance of complimentary football.    By this, they mean the offense helps the defense by not forcing the defense to spend too much time on the field.  The defense helps the offense by generating turnovers and good field positions.   The special teams simply help both sides. 

Wink's defense often had to carry the team and the talent (I would say the talent was middle of the pack) Wink had to work with made that a nearly impossible task, in my opinion.   

Agree totally
Wink made Chicken soup from Chicken feathers
Daboll's offense was mostly lame

As I have said in other posts, Daboll should be tossed also.

Start over with a top of the line HC.  Daboll came to us with zero HC experience, and it shows.   We won 6 games and in those 6 wins it was the D that led the way with umpteen turnovers generated.   

To make matters worse, the back up QBs showed Daboll's judgement to ride Jones as starting QB was catastrophic.  Perhaps Mara saddled Daboll with Jones. Who knows

Daboll's on an increasingly hot seat but we have to break our cycle of two and done HC so he gets year 3 to show growth on and off the field.

As for OL coach or coordinators I have no doubt Mara/Tisch will pay what is needed if we have a shot at an in-demand candidate. I have more doubts about whether or not we are an attractive proposition to top candidates.

We all know the Giants are old school in certain business and people aspects so the lower than top end salaries my cousin reports (decent benefits, working environment) in entry level and lower positions is really part and parcel of that 'work your way up' and 'earn your stripes' mentality. As with most things in life there are pros and cons.

From what I read it sounded like on the D side it was less collaborative as Wink and Wilkins ran D and kept out other D coaches from collaborating.  If true, I can see a firing being justified if the coaches being kept out have good ideas and are not idiots.

Quote from: Philosophers on January 11, 2024, 08:23:44 AMFrom what I read it sounded like on the D side it was less collaborative as Wink and Wilkins ran D and kept out other D coaches from collaborating.  If true, I can see a firing being justified if the coaches being kept out have good ideas and are not idiots.

As Mike Lombardi said, if they weren't included in the collaborative process, you have to ask why that was the case.   In the same podcast, there was something else that Mike said that struck me (in terms of collaboration)-  "you have never seen any one put up a statue to honor a committee"

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2024, 08:26:04 AMAs Mike Lombardi said, if they weren't included in the collaborative process, you have to ask why that was the case.  In the same podcast, there was something else that Mike said that struck me (in terms of collaboration)-  "you have never seen any one put up a statue to honor a committee"

No one who ever got a statue did so without a team of people behind them 

Quote from: babywhales on January 11, 2024, 08:29:00 AMNo one who ever got a statue did so without a team of people behind them

When you develop a defensive game plan, it can be done by the DC by themselves, it can be done with the DC and one or two others he works very well with, or it can be done collaboratively with the entire team.

In the end, a smart head coach allows his coordinators to work in the way they are most comfortable with and where they are most effective.  To tell a DC how to come up with his game plan is what would be called micromanaging.   

Quote from: BluesCruz on January 11, 2024, 04:44:02 AMAgree totally
Wink made Chicken soup from Chicken feathers
Daboll's offense was mostly lame

As I have said in other posts, Daboll should be tossed also.

Start over with a top of the line HC.  Daboll came to us with zero HC experience, and it shows.  We won 6 games and in those 6 wins it was the D that led the way with umpteen turnovers generated. 

To make matters worse, the back up QBs showed Daboll's judgement to ride Jones as starting QB was catastrophic.  Perhaps Mara saddled Daboll with Jones. Who knows

In 2022 the defense certainly did not carry the team.  They were a liability more than not, certainly not to the extent the offense was this season but they were the weak link that season. And they had more pieces than the offense.


If anyone deserved the Houdini award in 2022 it was Daboll for creating the most basic preliminary smoke and mirrors offense yet they were still able to get production with a horrible line, a glorified backup QB, a receiver corp led by Slayton. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2024, 08:37:20 AMWhen you develop a defensive game plan, it can be done by the DC by themselves, it can be done with the DC and one or two others he works very well with, or it can be done collaboratively with the entire team.

In the end, a smart head coach allows his coordinators to work in the way they are most comfortable with and where they are most effective.  To tell a DC how to come up with his game plan is what would be called micromanaging. 

Sure people work in different ways but that doesn't have any tie to Lombardi's comment. 


FYI, overall through 33 games, Winks game plans sucked

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 09:38:49 AMWink's defense often had to carry the team and the talent (I would say the talent was middle of the pack) Wink had to work with made that a nearly impossible task, in my opinion.   

I don't see any case that can be made that there wasn't significantly more talent on the defense than the offense.   I don't get the notion that Wink's performance was because of lack of talent but the offense's performance was all on Daboll. 

Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 11, 2024, 10:27:12 AMI don't see any case that can be made that there wasn't significantly more talent on the defense than the offense.   I don't get the notion that Wink's performance was because of lack of talent but the offense's performance was all on Daboll. 

It is very simple.  To me, MG wants to put the bulk of the blame on Daboll because he doesn't like his management style.

Quote from: coggs on January 11, 2024, 10:33:20 AMIt is very simple.  To me, MG wants to put the bulk of the blame on Daboll because he doesn't like his management style.

Coggs,

I think your use of the word "wants" is incorrect.  I don't "want" to blame anyone.  However, like you and everyone else here, I examine the facts and assign blame based on my values (which are based on my decades of management experience in a variety of settings). 

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2024, 10:43:27 AMCoggs,

I think your use of the word "wants" is incorrect.  I don't "want" to blame anyone.  However, like you and everyone else here, I examine the facts and assign blame based on my values (which are based on my decades of management experience in a variety of settings). 

As a manager with decades of experience, are you OK with Wink's insubordination?

Quote from: T200 on January 11, 2024, 10:48:38 AMAs a manager with decades of experience, are you OK with Wink's insubordination?

That's a really difficult question to answer.  There are degrees of insubordination, and there are usually circumstances surrounding a given incident.  For me, each case has to be considered on its own in context with an employee's history and value (along with the seriousness of the offense).  There have been cases where I have disciplined employees, and there are others where I ignored it (as I got older, I learned the value of selective vision and hearing).