Toomer Assessment of Tyrod vs Jones

[babywhales]

Yes, Tim. Tyrod was able to move the ball effectively. If the Oline was able to do their job, that audible would have and should have resulted in a TD. I actually fault Daboll for poor clock management near the end of that drive. If they had the time and just one more second, they win the game with two field goals.

Tyrod had just 6 starts in 2021 and none since. We saw the results of Jones not having a start in 9 months against Dallas in the season opener. Zero points. Both faced top-ten Defenses. Jones outside of that Cards game has scored 7.75 points on average including Defensive scoring.

   

4.75 pts per game over the 4 games not counting the cards game if the 12 points from the defense are removed.

I really thought the light had gone on for Jones in the second half of the Cards game. To come out flat, albeit on a short week against the 9ers, was troubling to me.

I hope he's cleared to play and Pugh gets the nod again.

The Seahwaks game was the one for me where I really took a step back and realized what the reality of Jones was at. 

Seattle is the #28 passing offense and #16 defense over all and Jones was 6-16 on 3rd downs with 136 passing yards, completely lost.

[Ed Vette]

4.75 pts per game over the 4 games not counting the cards game if the 12 points from the defense are removed. The Seahwaks game was the one for me where I really took a step back and realized what the reality of Jones was at. 

Seattle is the #28 passing offense and #16 defense over all and Jons was 6-16 on 3rd downs with 136 passing yards, completely lost.

Chris, there was one play where I believe it was WDR or Slay on the right side flat and it was an intended one-read quick pass. There were 2 defenders on it and one was undercutting the route to pick the ball off and the other to hit him as he caught the pass. TT threw the ball away. See where I'm going with this...

[True Blue]

I don't think Tyrod is better than Jones, Jones is more physically gifted overall. Not sure who has the stronger arm but can't imagine it's very different.

But until Jones shows otherwise I do think TT does gives this team a better chance to win most weeks. He may not be better, but he doesn't have the mental issues some say DJ has, with him in, the offense was at least to attempt more downfield shots, avoid and/or prevent "as much" pressure, and in general getting the ball out easier. He also had more time to throw against a good pass rush.

Maybe DJs clock is damaged, maybe the games too fast for him or something else whatever the reason may be its holding him back until he shows me a reason to believe otherwise. But TTs clock was just fine and the offense was more functional in several areas. Not great, but better than most of the season however low that bar may be. He wasn't seeking the checkdown every single play

[babywhales]

I don't think Tyrod is better than Jones, Jones is more physically gifted overall. Not sure who has the stronger arm but can't imagine it's very different.

But until Jones shows otherwise I do think TT does gives this team a better chance to win most weeks. He may not be better, but he doesn't have the mental issues some say DJ has, with him in, the offense was at least to attempt more downfield shots, avoid and/or prevent "as much" pressure, and in general getting the ball out easier. He also had more time to throw against a good pass rush.

Maybe DJs clock is damaged, maybe the games too fast for him or something else whatever the reason may be its holding him back until he shows me a reason to believe otherwise. But TTs clock was just fine and the offense was more functional in several areas. Not great, but better than most of the season however low that bar may be. He wasn't seeking the checkdown every single play

Personally, I think the big difference is mindset. 

Tyrod said he was going to go out and make the most of his opportunity.  He went into the game with something to prove, he had an opportunity and was going to make the most of it.

He played smart, made quick field assessments, through downfield at the correct times, through the ball away at the right times, he was more aggressive with his pocket presence- stepping up and extending the play at the right time vs running and flushing out to the side, adjusted and advised blocking when needed and audibled correctly roughly three times and of course completely screwed up the one audible that will not be forgotten.

Tyrod was playing to win vs the 3rd highest pressure % of the season. He made a bad O line better with his reads, pocket presence and play.


Jones
I do not see a Jones playing that way.  He scrambles to the side even when no pressure exist, rarely stepping up, checks down even when a receiver is open, he plays it safe all the time seldom taking the chances necessary to beat the best defenses.



If Jones could get his mind right I think he could be a stud QB. Coming out of last season I thought his development would get him there.  However, in the face of pressure vs Dallas his PTSD kicked in and he is a mess mentally. He is not calm and collected at the line, he is more like Dave Brown Deer in headlights while he waits for the next horrible play to plague him.

He doesn't read the rush very well, hit the hot route very well, he is making a bad line worse with his poor reads, pocket presence and play.

[DaveBrown74]

For me the key thing here is that I don't think Taylor is better than Jones. It's more that they appear to be roughly similar in overall effectiveness. That statement holds true if you are just isolating Sunday night's game against what Jones has done under similar conditions this year, and it also holds true if you widen the lens and look at their whole careers (Taylor's passing stats are in fact a bit better than Jones' long term).

I don't think anyone is pounding the table that Jones is significantly inferior to Taylor. That is not the argument. The point is more that they are not dissimilar in overall effectiveness, and yet one is a career journeyman backup making relatively modest money, and the other is a very well-paid starter. Which if you're a Giants fan feels problematic.

[T200]

I don't think anyone is pounding the table that Jones is significantly inferior to Taylor. That is not the argument. The point is more that they are not dissimilar in overall effectiveness, and yet one is a career journeyman backup making relatively modest money, and the other is a very well-paid starter. Which if you're a Giants fan feels problematic.

100% this.

Unfortunately, some will read this as a negative and critical post against Jones.

[DaveBrown74]

100% this.

Unfortunately, some will read this as a negative and critical post against Jones.

And that is completely their right to do if they so wish.

[True Blue]

For me the key thing here is that I don't think Taylor is better than Jones. It's more that they appear to be roughly similar in overall effectiveness. That statement holds true if you are just isolating Sunday night's game against what Jones has done under similar conditions this year, and it also holds true if you widen the lens and look at their whole careers (Taylor's passing stats are in fact a bit better than Jones' long term).

I don't think anyone is pounding the table that Jones is significantly inferior to Taylor. That is not the argument. The point is more that they are not dissimilar in overall effectiveness, and yet one is a career journeyman backup making relatively modest money, and the other is a very well-paid starter. Which if you're a Giants fan feels problematic.

That's the biggest thing that most are overlooking.

If that $40M went toward G and OL Depth and other areas, a Tyrod led team may actually be much more effective.

[Doc16LT56]

That's the biggest thing that most are overlooking.

If that $40M went toward G and OL Depth and other areas, a Tyrod led team may actually be much more effective.

Agreed. It wasn't a question of Daniel or Tyrod. It was a question of Daniel or Tyrod and better players. Plus moving on from Daniel would've unburdened the franchise of the fairytale that Daniel Jones is a franchise QB, which has been holding the organization back for 5 years. We're still stuck in the Gettleman era and will be until his contract is off the books.

[True Blue]

Agreed. It wasn't a question of Daniel or Tyrod. It was a question of Daniel or Tyrod and better players. Plus moving on from Daniel would've unburdened the franchise of the fairytale that Daniel Jones is a franchise QB, which has been holding the organization back for 5 years. We're still stuck in the Gettleman era and will be until his contract is off the books.

Couldn't agree more, $80++ Million, one less Gettleman mistake, and fewer checkdowns can go a very long way.

[Trench]

Toomer can say that all he wants in terms of softening the blow but his comments were a CLEAR indication that he thought the team played better behind Tyrod. That cannot be disputed when we read the text of what he stated

[Trench]

First, saying it's "one extreme" is a gross mischaracterization of what was said.

Another mischaracterization is saying people hold Jones to "an impossibly high standard."

No one absolved Tyrod of his bone-headed decision at the end of the first half. And had it not been for inept refs at the end of the game, it's a very good chance the Giants win, meaning Tyrod led them on a game-winning drive at the end, on the road in a hostile environment.

Former.players, analysts, and fans who watched the game have said that the offense looked more effective with Taylor under center. At a fraction of the cost. Neither QB has thrown a TD pass or engineered a TD drive through 6 drives. They are equal in that regard, I'm sure you would agree.

What's more palatable: a QB who can't put it in the end zone for 5.5 million or 40 million?

Edit to add/ask: what's the "impossibly high standard" you speak of?

I would add Daniel Jones OWN comments about Tyrod as proof that many of the people pushing back against Tyrod not playing too well are totally misguided.

Toomer said Tyrod played well.
Daboll said Tyrod played well.
Daniel Jones said Tyrod played well!

But people here still feel otherwise.

[Trench]

Since @T200 and @Ed Vette are taking the one extreme, I am going offer up a counterpoint for balance

I find it interesting that the same people who hold Daniel Jones to an impossibly high standard dropped that bar to the ground for Tyrod Taylor.  If Jones had scored just 9 points, made a huge mistake that cost the team the game, and failed to score twice while snapping the ball from the 1-yard line, there would be thread after thread calling for him to be benched. 

Taylor didn't LOOK bad, but his RESULTS were no better than and arguably worse than Jones.  How many games will a team win scoring just 9 points especially when the defense gives the offense 2 turnovers?

Since I am one of these people who hold Jones to the high standard I will reply to this.

I don't believe Tyrod is a better overall (potential) QB than Jones. But I am positive Jones is shaken and Tyrod gives the Giants a better chance to win at this time. The team looks smoother on offense in my opinion.

I always say winning is all that matters. Just win baby! This remains true with Tyrod. He lost and he ultimately failed. BUT I don't absolve him from any negativity which I would've had for Jones if the shoe were on the other foot. There is a major difference - one is the franchise QB and one is a journeyman backup. When the franchise guy screws up I will magnify it simply because he is expected to be better than the backup.

But as I mentioned last week and will reiterate now - Tyrod performance for me had more to do with examining what Daniel Jones is. I got my answer. Tyrod played a better defense than most teams of what Jones had to deal with this year, he moved the ball more fluidly, was way better on 3rd down, took less sacks, looked to have much more poise.

Did he win?....no...but he offered a glimpse into a comparison against Jones.

[Philosophers]

DJ can learn better pocket awareness and movement from Tyrod as well as greater downfield awareness and taking more 3rd down longer throws. DJ is more accurate than Tyrod.

[DaveBrown74]

DJ can learn better pocket awareness and movement from Tyrod as well as greater downfield awareness and taking more 3rd down longer throws. DJ is more accurate than Tyrod.

The idea that a fifth year starting QB making $40mm a year needs to "learn from " a $5mm/yr journeyman veteran backup in the later stages of his career is mind-boggling.

Is anyone saying Jalen Hurts can benefit from leaning from Marcus Mariotta? Or that Brock Purdy would stand to benefit from learning from Sam Darnold?