First one more try to get people to take this disease seriously and not just think of it as the flu. The flu doesn't do this:
QuoteThe Lucky Pelican in Lakewood Ranch posted a terrifying message on Facebook revealing a cook had called late on Wednesday night to confirm he had tested positive for the Coronavirus, but that he felt good
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 11, 2020, 07:46:03 AM
First one more try to get people to take this disease seriously and not just think of it as the flu. The flu doesn't do this:
Second, I am intimately familiar with the public health containment strategy that calls for identifying cases and isolating all those the positive case came in contact with (case investigation and contact tracing and isolation/quarantine)
Now there is another level that public health rarely discusses publicly. I like to call it the "we are fuc**d so there is no point in trying" phase. Essentially an outbreak becomes so bad that you consider it ubiquitous and as a result, you don't have the resources nor the return on investment to engage in case investigation and contact tracing. You essential surrender that battlefield and focus on some general messages like stay home if you are sick and so on. So understanding this concept, this part of the same article really spoke to me about how bad things have gotten in Florida:
Add in reports I have been hearing about Florida's ICU bed being filled (it's even worse than when the NYC area had it because this is not flu season), and you can see things are really really really bad down in Florida
https://toofab.com/2020/07/10/lucky-pelican-closes-florida-cook-dies-covid/
Too soon for a victory lap.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 11, 2020, 07:51:57 AM
Too soon for a victory lap.
There is an old saying, "if a dog bites you once, shame on the dog, if a dog bites you twice shame on you". Bob, please stop petting the dog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4S7k62oK-38
'I thought this was a hoax': Patient in their 30s dies after attending 'COVID party'QuoteChief Medical Officer of Methodist Healthcare Dr. Jane Appleby said the idea of these parties is to see if the virus is real.
Bob,
Will you listen to doctor Fauci?
Quote"As a country, when you compare us to other countries, I don't think you can say we're doing great. I mean, we're just not," Fauci said in an interview with FiveThirtyEight. Although Fauci noted that some cities like New York City have seen improvement, several other states are seeing a dramatic spike in coronavirus cases.
Fauci attributed COVID surges in states to their decisions to reopen too quickly. On Thursday, California, Florida and Texas reported their largest single-day death tolls since the pandemic began.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fauci-coronavirus-united-states-not-doing-great-other-countries/
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 11, 2020, 08:08:39 AM
Bob,
Will you listen to doctor Fauci?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fauci-coronavirus-united-states-not-doing-great-other-countries/
Too soon for a victory lap.
Maybe the answer was to not shut down a given city / area /state till there was a spike in that location. Then maybe people wouldn
Quote from: Ron in NJ on July 11, 2020, 08:31:45 AM
Maybe the answer was to not shut down a given city / area /state till there was a spike in that location. Then maybe people wouldn
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 11, 2020, 08:10:35 AM
Too soon for a victory lap.
Bob,
There is a passage from the book "The Influential Mind"
Quotethe greater your cognitive capacity, the greater your ability to rationalize and interpret information at will, and to creatively twist data to fit your opinions. Ironically, then, people may use their intelligence not to draw more accurate conclusions but to find fault in data they are unhappy with.
Is it possible you are using your impressive cognitive capacity not to fairly and properly evaluate all information, but rather to unintentionally mislead yourself by dismissing information that doesn't match your opinions by labeling it a "victory lap"?
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 11, 2020, 08:36:54 AM
Ron,
It's really just a no brainer.
Twenty/twenty hindsight.
I cant speak to Sarasota county, but I am thankful that the restaurants in Nassau county have a conscience. We have had a few voluntarily report that a worker was tested positive and then voluntarily close down for a week to deep clean and retest the rest of the staff.
Those that are open, have so much plastic around the workers that you feel like you are walking into a "clean room" and I can only think of one that is open (or was two weeks ago - we haven't been back yet, maybe today) for indoor seating with major spacing between tables. Very few have outdoor seating and the rest are take out only.
Nassau and Duval counties have a lot of testing going on and there are probably 60% (or less) positive in results. I know this because my wife works for the Director of Chronic Diseases for the Florida Department of Health in Duval and is the one who is processing ALL the test results that come in. And trust me - they are coming in in droves. She comes home brain fried each day. She gets anywhere from 80 - 120 test result reports, each upwards of 100 pages. About 20 pages or so are her "normal", what use to be day-to-day work: HIV, Hep, TB etc. the rest are Covid test results and there are probably 60% (maybe a little less) that are positive.
What we see here, living in "ground zero" is not indicative of what is being reported. In the department where I work, there are maybe 3 or 4 that have it (out of 218 employees) and not one of them are in the hospital. The local news is reporting that there are 26% of the hospital beds open and available in the entire state. Edit: 26% of ICU Beds available state wide
Quote from: Jim143 on July 11, 2020, 09:10:06 AM
I cant speak to Sarasota county, but I am thankful that the restaurants in Nassau county have a conscience. We have had a few voluntarily report that a worker was tested positive and then voluntarily close down for a week to deep clean and retest the rest of the staff.
Those that are open, have so much plastic around the workers that you feel like you are walking into a "clean room" and I can only think of one that is open (or was two weeks ago - we haven't been back yet, maybe today) for indoor seating with major spacing between tables. Very few have outdoor seating and the rest are take out only.
Nassau and Duval counties have a lot of testing going on and there are probably 60% (or less) positive in results. I know this because my wife works for the Director of Chronic Diseases for the Florida Department of Health in Duval and is the one who is processing ALL the test results that come in. And trust me - they are coming in in droves. She comes home brain fried each day. She gets anywhere from 80 - 120 test result reports, each upwards of 100 pages. About 20 pages or so are her "normal", what use to be day-to-day work: HIV, Hep, TB etc. the rest are Covid test results and there are probably 60% (maybe a little less) that are positive.
What we see here, living in "ground zero" is not indicative of what is being reported. In the department where I work, there are maybe 3 or 4 that have it (out of 218 employees) and not one of them are in the hospital. The local news is reporting that there are 26% of the hospital beds open and available in the entire state. Edit: 26% of ICU Beds available state wide
Jim,
On the testing, are they testing all comers or only those with symptoms? Also, I remember you were in law enforcement. Do you still have that kind of information? I am curious if the hospitals have had to supplement morgue space with refrigerated trailers as they did in NY and NJ. I know that treatments have improved since my area got hammered, but I am seeing that you guys are seeing a spike in deaths.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 11, 2020, 08:59:23 AM
In what way?
Nothing with a NOVEL virus is a "no-brainer," by definition. Further, remember... my remarks here (of which there will be no more) apply ALSO to governors who sent covid patients to nursing homes. Bob
Quote from: Jim143 on July 11, 2020, 09:10:06 AM
I cant speak to Sarasota county, but I am thankful that the restaurants in Nassau county have a conscience. We have had a few voluntarily report that a worker was tested positive and then voluntarily close down for a week to deep clean and retest the rest of the staff.
Those that are open, have so much plastic around the workers that you feel like you are walking into a "clean room" and I can only think of one that is open (or was two weeks ago - we haven't been back yet, maybe today) for indoor seating with major spacing between tables. Very few have outdoor seating and the rest are take out only.
Nassau and Duval counties have a lot of testing going on and there are probably 60% (or less) positive in results. I know this because my wife works for the Director of Chronic Diseases for the Florida Department of Health in Duval and is the one who is processing ALL the test results that come in. And trust me - they are coming in in droves. She comes home brain fried each day. She gets anywhere from 80 - 120 test result reports, each upwards of 100 pages. About 20 pages or so are her "normal", what use to be day-to-day work: HIV, Hep, TB etc. the rest are Covid test results and there are probably 60% (maybe a little less) that are positive.
What we see here, living in "ground zero" is not indicative of what is being reported. In the department where I work, there are maybe 3 or 4 that have it (out of 218 employees) and not one of them are in the hospital. The local news is reporting that there are 26% of the hospital beds open and available in the entire state. Edit: 26% of ICU Beds available state wide
The reporting overall of the pandemic has been abysmal on both sides. CNN is non-stop hysteria, while Fox concentrates on what's going on in a city block in Portland or Seattle and ignores the virus altogether. There is no balance. Of course if we had leadership things would be different, but we don't. We have an ignorant president who spreads his ignorance to others as contagious as Covid.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 11, 2020, 09:14:44 AM
Nothing with a NOVEL virus is a "no-brainer," by definition. Further, remember... my remarks here (of which there will be no more) apply ALSO to governors who sent covid patients to nursing homes. Bob
Bob,
It is my firm belief that copying what has proven to work is always a "no brainer". That applies to pretty much any situation including dealing with novel viruses
Quote from: katkavage on July 11, 2020, 09:17:33 AM
The reporting overall of the pandemic has been abysmal on both sides. CNN is non-stop hysteria, while Fox concentrates on what's going on in a city block in Portland or Seattle and ignores the virus altogether. There is no balance. Of course if we had leadership things would be different, but we don't. We have an ignorant president who spreads his ignorance to others as contagious as Covid.
Sometimes I forget that there are people who let the news networks decide what they will learn about in terms of what is going on. I mean I listen to news radio getting ready every morning and read a morning paper (while I eat breakfast) for general situational awareness but beyond that, I use online news aggregators to see what is going on and what information is available. The thought of sitting down and listening to CNN, MSNBC, or FOX "News" is a foreign concept to me because it seems like such an inefficient and poor way to learn what is going on.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 11, 2020, 09:14:04 AM
Jim,
On the testing, are they testing all comers or only those with symptoms? Also, I remember you were in law enforcement. Do you still have that kind of information? I am curious if the hospitals have had to supplement morgue space with refrigerated trailers as they did in NY and NJ. I know that treatments have improved since my area got hammered, but I am seeing that you guys are seeing a spike in deaths.
They are testing everyone and anyone who shows up. They have even opened up three new testing areas in Eastern Jacksonville area. They now have a total of 6 or 7 testing areas Jacksonville wide. A coworker sat in line two Sunday's ago for 5 hours just to get tested.
No, I am out of law enforcement and I have not heard anything about needing extra space like NY. . .and trust me, the way the local media hypes and overkill's every single story they think is necessary to overkill, we would have heard something if they were doing it.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 11, 2020, 09:23:04 AM
Sometimes I forget that there are people who let the news networks decide what they will learn about in terms of what is going on. I mean I listen to news radio getting ready every morning and read a morning paper (while I eat breakfast) for general situational awareness but beyond that, I use online news aggregators to see what is going on and what information is available. The thought of sitting down and listening to CNN, MSNBC, or FOX "News" is a foreign concept to me because it seems like such an inefficient and poor way to learn what is going on.
I can not tell you when I last watched ANY of these channels. . . I only watch local news, turning it off for world news or nightly news or what ever it's called. After an hour of local news, I ask myself "WHY" because, depending on the time of the year, it's a total waste of time. For instance, in the summer and fall - a 30 minute segment might have 10 minutes of weather and 20 minutes of jaguars. Maybe a minute or two of a shooting.
Lately it is have gloom and doom covid wall to wall, with the exception of maybe 5 minutes of weather now that we are in hurricane season.
Quote from: Jim143 on July 11, 2020, 10:19:44 AM
They are testing everyone and anyone who shows up. They have even opened up three new testing areas in Eastern Jacksonville area. They now have a total of 6 or 7 testing areas Jacksonville wide. A coworker sat in line two Sunday's ago for 5 hours just to get tested.
No, I am out of law enforcement and I have not heard anything about needing extra space like NY. . .and trust me, the way the local media hypes and overkill's every single story they think is necessary to overkill, we would have heard something if they were doing it.
That 60% is surprisingly high in that context. During our worst in the region we were seeing 50% with only symptomatic. When we got to all comers we were 40%. These days we are seeing 2-3% positive rate
Since we are talking Florida, I would like other opinions on the opening of Disneyworld?
Personally I think this is one of the worst ideas since this virus started. OK< they are trying to do it sensibly, but in reality, that is impossible. PLUS, according to ticket sales, they are already sold out thru July. So all those visitors will go there, possibly contact someone with the virus and then take it back to wherever they came from?
Maybe I'm old and naive, but how in God's name can you open up Disneyworld in the middle of a pandemic, especially in a state where the numbers are going off the charts?
Quote from: Jim143 on July 11, 2020, 10:23:52 AM
I can not tell you when I last watched ANY of these channels. . . I only watch local news, turning it off for world news or nightly news or what ever it's called. After an hour of local news, I ask myself "WHY" because, depending on the time of the year, it's a total waste of time. For instance, in the summer and fall - a 30 minute segment might have 10 minutes of weather and 20 minutes of jaguars. Maybe a minute or two of a shooting.
Lately it is have gloom and doom covid wall to wall, with the exception of maybe 5 minutes of weather now that we are in hurricane season.
JIM FIRST A CORRECTION ON MY PREVIOUS POST- when we started testing supplies were short so we did only symptomatic patients. Most of us got just under 50% positive with that rule in place. It was like a month and a half before demand for testing and supplies were such that we could open it up to all comers. By then we were starting to see positive test rates of 10% and those testing for anti-bodies were seeing like 40% positive rate (meaning they previously were infected). Now, like I said we are seeing between 2% and 3% positive rate. (sorry I posted my first information while walking and between my phone and less than ideal memory my numbers were off)
I also remember when we were being hammered all the news would talk about was Covid. I don't think that was by design but I think it was simply the news stations seeing it as the biggest story and one that was easy to report on (they knew where to go to get the story) since with Covid being so active, the reporters weren't in a position to really go hunting for stories.
Quote from: LennG on July 11, 2020, 12:58:38 PM
Since we are talking Florida, I would like other opinions on the opening of Disneyworld?
Personally I think this is one of the worst ideas since this virus started. OK< they are trying to do it sensibly, but in reality, that is impossible. PLUS, according to ticket sales, they are already sold out thru July. So all those visitors will go there, possibly contact someone with the virus and then take it back to wherever they came from?
Maybe I'm old and naive, but how in God's name can you open up Disneyworld in the middle of a pandemic, especially in a state where the numbers are going off the charts?
Len,
If they weren't in Florida I wouldn't have a problem with them opening. However, opening in Florida not only makes things worse for their state, but people from all over the nation (let me tell you I know Disney fanatics) will also travel to the terrible hotbed of Covid and will bring the disease back to their home states
I stand corrected. With all that
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 11, 2020, 02:10:43 PM
Jim,
We both had to issue corrections, does that mean we are getting old? =))
Considering yesterday was my birthday, I
15,350 new cases in Fla today, a new one day record for the state - by almost 50%! Schools are scheduled to open in about 4 weeks. What could possibly go wrong?
And the governor wants schools open 5 days a week. We had a great plan where schools would be split shifts and if parents wanted 50% or more virtual learning, it would be available. Now, with the governor's statement, that threw a wrench into everything.
I saw some southern counties basically say screw that, we're doing what's best for our students and staff. . . .I wonder if other counties will follow suit.
Please tell me that the FL governor has at least mandated the use of masks and rolled back dangerous indoor activities like eating out, movies, gyms, and bars
Stay safe my friends
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 12, 2020, 04:14:37 PM
Please tell me that the FL governor has at least mandated the use of masks and rolled back dangerous indoor activities like eating out, movies, gyms, and bars
Stay safe my friends
Not that I am aware of. I do know the local mayor of Jacksonville, City of Fernandina and County of Nassau have all mandated masks indoors and when you can not be at least 6 feet apart until 30 July.
I do not believe Bars, Gyms and Theaters are closed, but many of the dining establishments are still going - and have stayed - carry out or delivery only. There is only one, that I am aware of, that has indoor dining and they have many tables with chairs on them for distancing.
I thought this was well done and explains a lot (hopefully)
How can a disease with 1% mortality shut down the United States?
Franklin Veaux
Just saw that the city commissioner's office is meeting Wednesday to consider going back to phase 1 - indoor restaurants at 25% capacity, Gyms closed, etc. We'll see what happens. Usually, when the city makes a decision, the county follows shorts there after.
Quote from: Jim143 on July 13, 2020, 09:07:04 AM
Just saw that the city commissioner's office is meeting Wednesday to consider going back to phase 1 - indoor restaurants at 25% capacity, Gyms closed, etc. We'll see what happens. Usually, when the city makes a decision, the county follows shorts there after.
Sometimes I forget about a basic weather issue of Florida. Here in NJ, we have outdoor dining only. I forget that the heat and humidity in Florida would make that option less practical. So I guess that's why they go 25%. The problem with indoor dining is that people need to remove masks to eat and they stay in one place for relatively long periods of time. I think the key is to think about the virus as a poison. There is a dose (number of virus particles that will make you sick (we don't know the number but it's thought to be in the hundreds). I personally believe (and it's not scientifically proven) that the more virus that enters your body the sicker you get.
So when you think about being exposed it's like all poisons which is an equation of time exposed multiplied by the concentration you are exposed to. So sitting for an hour to enjoy a fine meal without inside is riskier than two maskless people passing each other in a grocery store
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 13, 2020, 09:58:38 AM
Sometimes I forget about a basic weather issue of Florida. Here in NJ, we have outdoor dining only. I forget that the heat and humidity in Florida would make that option less practical. So I guess that's why they go 25%. The problem with indoor dining is that people need to remove masks to eat and they stay in one place for relatively long periods of time. I think the key is to think about the virus as a poison. There is a dose (number of virus particles that will make you sick (we don't know the number but it's thought to be in the hundreds). I personally believe (and it's not scientifically proven) that the more virus that enters your body the sicker you get.
So when you think about being exposed it's like all poisons which is an equation of time exposed multiplied by the concentration you are exposed to. So sitting for an hour to enjoy a fine meal without inside is riskier than two maskless people passing each other in a grocery store
Rich: I saw an article making a case (for Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and southern California) that most of the current increases are from proximity to the border and protests. I have no opinion on the issue now. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 13, 2020, 10:36:33 AM
Rich: I saw an article making a case (for Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and southern California) that most of the current increases are from proximity to the border and protests. I have no opinion on the issue now. Bob
The only studies I have seen have not seen spikes from protests. I think from a common-sense perspective if protests were a significant cause of increased cases, you would expect NY and NJ major hub of protest activity would be seeing surges in cases rather than what we are currently seeing which a generally low level of Covid activity.
As for the proximity to the border, did the article explain how Mexico with its 2,324 cases per million population ended up infecting the US with its 10,324 infected per million?
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 13, 2020, 10:36:33 AM
Rich: I saw an article making a case (for Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and southern California) that most of the current increases are from proximity to the border and protests. I have no opinion on the issue now. Bob
Bob, I don't agree with Trump's policy/behavior etc... but I do admire your faithful defense of everything he does. This most recent post by you though is disappointing to me because it isn't the type of stuff you would normally post. No link to the article is fine but if you have no opinion on the issue why would throw something like this out there? Today's cultish America is not able to decipher this kind of stuff. I can see it now on Fox News, Is Black Lives Matter responsible for the recent spike of Corona virus cases? Mexico brings criminals, rapists, drugs and now the Corona virus to US border states! By the time the research is done proving this not to be true the damage is already done.
Quote from: umassgrad on July 13, 2020, 11:44:59 AM
By the time the research is done proving this not to be true the damage is already done.
I think this has been a major problem in the United States for at least the last 2 decades.
There has been no spike in NY from the massive protests that took place a month ago. I don't think Minnesota has spiked either. So there really is no correlation.
Quote from: umassgrad on July 13, 2020, 11:44:59 AM
Bob, I don't agree with Trump's policy/behavior etc... but I do admire your faithful defense of everything he does. This most recent post by you though is disappointing to me because it isn't the type of stuff you would normally post. No link to the article is fine but if you have no opinion on the issue why would throw something like this out there? Today's cultish America is not able to decipher this kind of stuff. I can see it now on Fox News, Is Black Lives Matter responsible for the recent spike of Corona virus cases? Mexico brings criminals, rapists, drugs and now the Corona virus to US border states! By the time the research is done proving this not to be true the damage is already done.
umass: I didn't provide the link because I didn't want to take a position on the contents, but rather just wanted the idea to be put up in case anyone was interested. Since you asked,
https://www.foxnews.com/media/dr-atlas-coronavirus-surges-linked-mostly-to-protests-and-proximity-to-us-mexico-border
As for defending the President, I did the same for Obama, and would do so for every President, because as an American, I think it's something I should do (and I'm not alone in this attitude). This is particularly true, IMO, for issues like the pandemic, which involves a novel microbe. I have no doubt at that, every governmental level, the people are doing their level best (in a no-win situation) and so I try to minimize or avoid criticism on that issue. It just so happens I just saw an article analyzing Fauci's performance throughout the crisis.... It counters the idea that Fauci can do no wrong. IMO it's just a reminder that everyone in charge is a real person, not Superman.
https://www.businessinsider.com/white-house-seeks-to-undercut-fauci-by-circulating-mistakes-list-2020-7
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 13, 2020, 12:34:01 PM
umass: I didn't provide the link because I didn't want to take a position on the contents, just wanted it to be put up in case anyone was interested. Since you asked,
https://www.foxnews.com/media/dr-atlas-coronavirus-surges-linked-mostly-to-protests-and-proximity-to-us-mexico-border
As for defending the President, I did the same for Obama, and would do so for every President, because as an American, I think it's something I should do and there are others like me. This is particularly true, IMO, for issues like the pandemic involving a novel microbe. I have no doubt at every governmental level the people are doing their level best (in a no-win situation) and so try to minimize or avoid criticism on that issue. It just so happens I just saw an article analyzing Fauci's performance throughout the crisis.
Since you reminded me, though, here's another article about the virus that counters the idea that Fauci can do no wrong. IMO it's just a reminder that everyone in charge is a real person, not Superman.
https://www.businessinsider.com/white-house-seeks-to-undercut-fauci-by-circulating-mistakes-list-2020-7
Bob
This article is a good opportunity to share my vetting process.
First Fox News- They have historically been more about disseminating propaganda that favors the Republicans than providing anything close to their claims of "fair and balanced"
Doctor Scott Atlas- His medical credentials are sound and he has the knowledge to speak on the topic. His employment at a conservative think tank means he may have an agenda beyond the truth (same could be said of liberal think tank employees).
So really you need to get into the way the information is disseminated. If you notice when I speak on a Covid I try my best (I bet you can find examples where I slipped and didn't follow the rule) to categorize what I say into one of 5 categories:
1) I believe
2) My professional opinion
3) The current scientific thinking
4) The study shows
5) If enough good studies show I state it as fact
You will notice the good doctor never does what I say is the appropriate way to speak when you are dealing with science and medicine
Instead, he uses the word "correlate" that when used in this context would be best considered a "weasel word" Every claim doctor Atlas makes is based on "correlations" as HE sees them. When you are dealing with a disease that can take up to 2 weeks to develop after exposure it's difficult, at best, to use correlation as the evidence of a claim. That is why almost all the legit scientific and medical literature on the topic does not use coloration (or just use) as a tool to better understand the disease. Plus you always have to consider causation as every proper man of science knows this important phrase, "Correlation is not causation". Otherwise, one can believe- "there is a rock in my front yard. There are no tigers in my yard or my neighborhood. Therefore the rock keeps tigers away"
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 13, 2020, 12:52:53 PM
This article is a good opportunity to share my vetting process.
First Fox News- They have historically been more about disseminating propaganda that favors the Republicans than providing anything close to their claims of "fair and balanced"
Doctor Scott Atlas- His medical credentials are sound and he has the knowledge to speak on the topic. His employment at a conservative think tank means he may have an agenda beyond the truth (same could be said of liberal think tank employees).
So really you need to get into the way the information is disseminated. If you notice when I speak on a Covid I try my best (I bet you can find examples where I slipped and didn't follow the rule) to categorize what I say into one of 5 categories:
1) I believe
2) My professional opinion
3) The current scientific thinking
4) The study shows
5) If enough good studies show I state it as fact
You will notice the good doctor never does what I say is the appropriate way to speak when you are dealing with science and medicine
Instead, he uses the word "correlate" that when used in this context would be best considered a "weasel word" Every claim doctor Atlas makes is based on "correlations" as HE sees them. When you are dealing with a disease that can take up to 2 weeks to develop after exposure it's difficult, at best, to use correlation as the evidence of a claim. That is why almost all the legit scientific and medical literature on the topic does not use coloration (or just use) as a tool to better understand the disease. Plus you always have to consider causation as every proper man of science knows this important phrase, "Correlation is not causation". Otherwise, one can believe- "there is a rock in my front yard. There are no tigers in my yard or my neighborhood. Therefore the rock keeps tigers away"
I can validate this rock/tiger theory. About three years ago, I put landscape timber around my entire house, 3 feet out from the house. I filled that space with marble chips. To this date, we had had zero tiger sightings (outside, anyway) and that is equally surprising since we are relatively close to CattyShack (Big cat rescue) and White Oak Conservatory.
:)
The World Health Organization has announced that it will not visit the Wuhan Institute of Virology during its investigation into the origins of the coronavirus, despite the fact that the lab held samples of coronavirus that were almost exactly the same as that which caused a global pandemic.
WHO stated that its mission will only seek to
It's not surprising to me, Bob. WHO is working hand-in-hand with China on the Chinses coverup.
I am pretty sure that WHO was not created to investigate every right-wing/GOP conspiracy theory.
Not everyone institution (some like FOX "news", sure) was created to serve the GOP's goals to rule American.
WHO was actually created and serves the role of protecting the world's public health.
Of course, our impeached President has pulled the US out of the World Health Organization in the middle of a deadly pandemic, which will mean more lives lost, but ask the Ukrainian President there is a big price to pay if you don't launch investigations into conspiracy theories that would help Trump's Presidential campaign
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 15, 2020, 07:26:56 AM
WHO was actually created and serves the role of protecting the world's public health.
Rich: They're doing a bang-up job! Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 15, 2020, 07:53:09 AM
Rich: They're doing a bang-up job! Bob
Is it fair to hold them accountable when countries don't cooperate?
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 15, 2020, 07:53:09 AM
Rich: They're doing a bang-up job! Bob
Yet, the rest of the world is doing better than the USA under Donald Trump
Quote from: T200 on July 15, 2020, 07:57:24 AM
Is it fair to hold them accountable when countries don't cooperate?
Tim: No, it's not. However, they do have a duty to report what they know as soon as possible after they learn it. This, they did not do back at the inception of the virus. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 15, 2020, 08:16:58 AM
Tim: No, it's not. However, they do have a duty to report what they know as soon as possible after they learn it. This, they did not do back at the inception of the virus. Bob
What information was specifically withheld and how do you know that to be true? Also what role did Trump's failure to fill America's open seat on WHO's board contribute to communications issues?
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 15, 2020, 08:24:52 AM
What information was specifically withheld and how do you know that to be true? Also what role did Trump's failure to fill America's open seat on WHO's board contribute to communications issues?
Rich: I'm not going to answer.
I'm trying my best to avoid criticizing any of our country's ELECTED leaders as IMO they are all trying their best to discharge their sworn duties in a "no-win" situation. To answer would require otherwise.
If you don't see the connection between WHO and some elected leaders, look harder. Then you'll be able to infer what I'm talking about (and, in any event, I think you already know!).
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 15, 2020, 08:37:38 AM
Rich: I'm not going to answer.
I'm trying my best to avoid criticizing any of our country's ELECTED leaders as IMO they are all trying their best to discharge their sworn duties in a "no-win" situation. To answer would require otherwise.
If you don't see the connection between WHO and some elected leaders, look harder. Then you'll be able to infer what I'm talking about (and, in any event, I think you already know!).
Bob
I know you said on a 1-10 scale that you were 9.9 certain that Trump was doing his very best to fight the virus. Yet, we also know that the US has done the worst (of major nations) in handling the virus. Which makes me wonder two things:
1) does that mean you think so little of Trump's abilities that you really do believe that he did the best HE could do in terms of dealing with this nation/world crisis?
2) Is there anything you could hear or see that would sway you from your opinion that Donald Trump did his best to lead the nation during this major crisis and he never allowed thoughts of his re-election to influence his actions and decisions?
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 15, 2020, 08:41:58 AM
I know you said on a 1-10 scale that you were 9.9 certain that Trump was doing his very best to fight the virus. Yet, we also know that the US has done the worst (of major nations) in handling the virus. Which makes me wonder two things:
1) does that mean you think so little of Trump's abilities that you really do believe that he did the best HE could do in terms of dealing with this nation/world crisis?
2) Is there anything you could hear or see that would sway you from your opinion that Donald Trump did his best to lead the nation during this major crisis and he never allowed thoughts of his re-election influence his actionsand decisions?
Rich: Your measure of determining that "the US has done the worst.... etc." ignores basic facts. There were 50 responses (state by state) rather than one. We can argue about whether a totalitarian response forcing all states to comply with one set of rules would have been better, but the correct comparison is to weigh each state's results with Germany. Some did better. Some did worse. IMO with a novel virus, it was better to do what Trump did, which was to make recommendations and then leave it to the states. That's the American way, and in addition, and importantly, it enabled us to learn which approaches worked best MUCH FASTER (and time was the key) so that each state would be free to copy what was working in other states and to avoid what was not working. Bob
Before everyone makes a judgement, you may have to wait. There is evidence of massive errors in Florida's reporting. They have discovered that many labs were not reporting any negative results which increases the positive percentage. They are also reporting that a significant number of sites are reporting 100% positive results. The Orlando hospital was being reported as a 98% positive rate when the reality was 9.4%. In addition the Florida death rate is nowhere near what happened in N.Y. nor does it correlate to the positive % being reported. This will come out in the next few days with the Governor possibly discussing today.
Quote from: FL GMAN on July 15, 2020, 09:06:17 AM
Before everyone makes a judgement, you may have to wait. There is evidence of massive errors in Florida's reporting. They have discovered that many labs were not reporting any negative results which increases the positive percentage. They are also reporting that a significant number of sites are reporting 100% positive results. The Orlando hospital was being reported as a 98% positive rate when the reality was 9.4%. In addition the Florida death rate is nowhere near what happened in N.Y. nor does it correlate to the positive % being reported. This will come out in the next few days with the Governor possibly discussing today.
FL: Yes. It's way too early in the "life" of a pandemic to start reaching any conclusions about anything. To your point, however, I do believe a few of the labs have some explaining to do. Bob
Decisions are being made on these numbers, such as school reopening. They may have to go back over everything. I haven't been tested but I heard they fingerprint so they may be able to do it. Something is very wrong when multiple sites report 100% positive.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 15, 2020, 08:56:18 AM
Rich: Your measure of determining that "the US has done the worst.... etc." ignores basic facts. There were 50 responses (state by state) rather than one. We can argue about whether a totalitarian response forcing all states to comply with one set of rules would have been better, but the correct comparison is to weigh each state's results with Germany. Some did better. Some did worse. IMO with a novel virus, it was better to do what Trump did, which was to make recommendations and then leave it to the states. That's the American way, and in addition, and importantly, it enabled us to learn which approaches worked best MUCH FASTER (and time was the key) so that each state would be free to copy what was working in other states and to avoid what was not working. Bob
"totalitarian response forcing all states to comply with one set of rules"
In environmental public health, we like to say that pollution doesn't respect town/county/state borders. The same could be said of a virus. The nations with successful responses to the virus had nationwide responses because that is how you handle this sort of outbreak.
I have been in public health for 17 years now and I have been through the H1N1 and Ebola outbreaks as well have spent all those years on emergency planning.
A nationwide has always been the US strategy (from the Bush years when I started through the Obama years) until Trump took office. The CDC is our leading public health agency and they are the ones who are more than equipped to issue guidelines and procedures and updates to the states. The states then take that information to form their own policies. In previous outbreaks, some states may make guidelines that are more stringent than the CDC's but it was never seen that a state would be so reckless as to set standards that were laxer than the CDC.
It's sort of interesting, that just last night I was reading in my paper (I know cardinal sin reading a morning paper in the evening) that thanks to irresponsible states that followed Trump's urgings and ignored the exerts and rushed to open the explosion of cases has created a shortage of testing supplies. Now, Covid tests in NJ are going from taking 2-4 days for the lab to process to more than 5 days to process. Taking over 5 days to process kneecaps our state's effort to contain the disease by case investigation/contact tracing/isolation because all the spread you can get in those extra days. If we had a proper nationwide response that wouldn't be an issue. If we had a proper nationwide response, NY/NJ/CT wouldn't have 22 states on their list of states where you need to quarantine for 14 days after you return from them.
Quote from: FL GMAN on July 15, 2020, 09:06:17 AM
Before everyone makes a judgement, you may have to wait. There is evidence of massive errors in Florida's reporting. They have discovered that many labs were not reporting any negative results which increases the positive percentage. They are also reporting that a significant number of sites are reporting 100% positive results. The Orlando hospital was being reported as a 98% positive rate when the reality was 9.4%. In addition the Florida death rate is nowhere near what happened in N.Y. nor does it correlate to the positive % being reported. This will come out in the next few days with the Governor possibly discussing today.
So how do you explain all the hospitals being full during the time of year when they are traditionally their most empty?
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 15, 2020, 09:34:47 AM
"totalitarian response forcing all states to comply with one set of rules"
In environmental public health, we like to say that pollution doesn't respect town/county/state borders. The same could be said of a virus. The nations with successful responses to the virus had nationwide responses because that is how you handle this sort of outbreak.
I have been in public health for 17 years now and I have been through the H1N1 and Ebola outbreaks as well have spent all those years on emergency planning.
A nationwide has always been the US strategy (from the Bush years when I started through the Obama years) until Trump took office. The CDC is our leading public health agency and they are the ones who are more than equipped to issue guidelines and procedures and updates to the states. The states then take that information to form their own policies. In previous outbreaks, some states may make guidelines that are more stringent than the CDC's but it was never seen that a state would be so reckless as to set standards that were laxer than the CDC.
It's sort of interesting, that just last night I was reading in my paper (I know cardinal sin reading a morning paper in the evening) that thanks to irresponsible states that followed Trump's urgings and ignored the exerts and rushed to open the explosion of cases has created a shortage of testing supplies. Now, Covid tests in NJ are going from taking 2-4 days for the lab to process to more than 5 days to process. Taking over 5 days to process kneecaps our state's effort to contain the disease by case investigation/contact tracing/isolation because all the spread you can get in those extra days. If we had a proper nationwide response that wouldn't be an issue. If we had a proper nationwide response, NY/NJ/CT wouldn't have 22 states on their list of states where you need to quarantine for 14 days after you return from them.
Rich: That's all Monday morning quarterbacking. Trump's approach is, was and continues to be the approach required by the Constitution, which he swore to uphold and protect. All powers not specified there are SPECIFICALLY reserved to the states. There are public safety exceptions as you well know, but IMO it is up to the President as the top elected Federal official to determine when those exceptions apply. In this case, IMO Trump's decision IMPROVED our ability to learn as quickly as possible about this novel microbe. You can argue in retrospect that a nationwide approach might have been better, but you can also argue that it might have been WORSE. Suppose all 50 states had followed religiously every statement made by Fauci that later proved to be incorrect (not picking on him, just using him as an example)? Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 15, 2020, 09:39:22 AM
So how do you explain all the hospitals being full during the time of year when they are traditionally their most empty?
Rich: Non sequitur. Completely unrelated to the point being made. Also, hospital beds are now being occupied by numerous non-covid-related ELECTIVE procedures which require hospitalization. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 15, 2020, 09:45:53 AM
Rich: Non sequitur. Completely unrelated to the point being made. Also, hospital beds are now being occupied by numerous non-covid-related ELECTIVE procedures which require hospitalization. Bob
Is that because it's harder to doctor hospitalization numbers?
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 15, 2020, 09:42:00 AM
Rich: That's all Monday morning quarterbacking. Trump's approach is, was and continues to be the approach required by the Constitution, which he swore to uphold and protect. All powers not specified there are SPECIFICALLY reserved to the states. There are public safety exceptions as you well know, but IMO it is up to the President as the top elected Federal official to determine when those exceptions apply. In this case, IMO Trump's decision IMPROVED our ability to learn as quickly as possible about this novel microbe. You can argue in retrospect that a nationwide approach might have been better, but you can also argue that it might have been WORSE. Suppose all 50 states had followed religiously every statement made by Fauci that later proved to be incorrect (not picking on him, just using him as an example)? Bob
More like the week before the game quarterbacking as you (or anyone) can go back and see that I was citing experts well before decisions were made that it was dangerous and people would be killed if you ignored the experts and the guidelines and rushed to open up.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 15, 2020, 09:50:13 AM
More like the week before the game quarterbacking as you (or anyone) can go back and see that I was citing experts well before decisions were made that it was dangerous and people would be killed if you ignored the experts and the guidelines and rushed to open up.
Rich: And other experts said the opposite. So what? Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 15, 2020, 09:55:01 AM
Rich: And other experts said the opposite. So what? Bob
Not exactly, the right/GOP/Trump trotted out people that said what they wanted to hear and touted them as experts.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 15, 2020, 09:48:06 AM
Is that because it's harder to doctor hospitalization numbers?
Always political. What happened to the "truth" in science? Is the amount of info we have on the virus only important if it helps Democrats? Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 15, 2020, 09:57:38 AM
Not exactly, the right/GOP/Trump trotted out people that said what they wanted to hear and touted them as experts.
Rich: As did the left. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 15, 2020, 09:58:04 AM
Rich: As did the left. Bob
No, Bob the rest of us simply listened to the actual experts who correctly told us not to rush to open things back up and said if we did cases would spike and you would have to start shutting things back down.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 15, 2020, 09:57:41 AM
Always political. What happened to the "truth" in science? Is the amount of info we have on the virus only important if it helps Democrats? Bob
Really?!?! Bob, I honestly think you might need to take a break my friend. You are starting to see ghosts like Sam Darnold :laugh:
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 15, 2020, 10:00:58 AM
Really?!?! Bob, I honestly think you might need to take a break my friend. You are starting to see ghosts like Sam Darnold :laugh:
Rich: Condescending and demeaning. Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 15, 2020, 09:59:20 AM
No, Bob the rest of us simply listened to the actual experts who correctly told us not to rush to open things back up and said if we did cases would spike and you would have to start shutting things back down.
Rich: The word "rush" is an opinion, so there is no "science" in your statement, just politics. IMO not a single state rushed to open things back up because every leader wanted the best for his or her people. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 15, 2020, 10:03:43 AM
Rich: Condescending and demeaning. Bob
Sorry, you believe that Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 15, 2020, 10:07:37 AM
Rich: The word "rush" is an opinion, so there is no "science" in your statement, just politics. IMO not a single state rushed to open things back up because every leader wanted the best for his or her people. Bob
The CDC issued guidance (that Trump even labeled as his plan to open America) it was a roadmap on how to safely open up the nation. There was other CDC guidance on how to safely open up that Trump censored (thanks to our watchdog media the document was available and I was able to download a copy). When I used the term "rushed" I was using it in the context of states that violated the guidelines so they could open up quicker.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 15, 2020, 10:30:19 AM
The CDC issued guidance (that Trump even labeled as his plan to open America) it was a roadmap on how to safely open up the nation. There was other CDC guidance on how to safely open up that Trump censored (thanks to our watchdog media the document was available and I was able to download a copy). When I used the term "rushed" I was using it in the context of states that violated the guidelines so they could open up quicker.
Rich: That seems about right, but I must ask.... is there no chance some states intentionally opened up slower by implementing more precautions than the guidelines suggested were necessary? No need to answer that. I mention it only to point out that there is another side of the story. If some states DID go slower, good for them. If some went faster, it was because they believed it was in the best interest of their residents to do so. The response to a public health crisis should not be determined in a vacuum that considers ONLY one type of "health." That's why each state has a chief executive... to determine the over-all "best" solution. It's not a clear-cut "science only" proposition, and again that is why I refuse to criticize any of them. Bob
Rich all I was saying is that there are major inconsistencies in the numbers that need to be investigated. You always talk about verification but in any news that runs contrary to your opinion you label it false and untrue. Let it play out. It might be insignificant or it could be a big change.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 15, 2020, 10:37:58 AM
Rich: That seems about right, but I must ask.... is there no chance some states intentionally opened up slower by implementing more precautions than the guidelines suggested were necessary? No need to answer that. I mention it only to point out that there is another side of the story. If some states DID go slower, good for them. If some went faster, it was because they believed it was in the best interest of their residents to do so. The response to a public health crisis should not be determined in a vacuum that considers ONLY one type of "health." That's why each state has a chief executive... to determine the over-all "best" solution. It's not a clear-cut "science only" proposition, and again that is why I refuse to criticize any of the them. Bob
It seems to me many of our elected officials shared your beliefs rather than the "let us listen to the experts" type leaders like Germany did (or even NY and NJ who got started out, when testing finally was available, with the virus widespread and getting worse). Staying closed was not an easy option politically what with heavily armed protestors storming government buildings demanding their states reopen quickly
Quote from: FL GMAN on July 15, 2020, 10:54:04 AM
Rich all I was saying is that there are major inconsistencies in the numbers that need to be investigated. You always talk about verification but in any news that runs contrary to your opinion you label it false and untrue. Let it play out. It might be insignificant or it could be a big change.
Here is how I see it.
You can't doctor hospitalizations so that is a gold standard indicator and it shows Florida is in a really bad way
As for the cases to death numbers, I am mindful of a few things:
1) Florida had a couple of months to prepare that NY and NJ didn't have
2) Medical treatments have improved since NY/NJ got hammered
3) There are more PPE supplies available now than when NY/NJ got hammered and healthcare workers were forced to wear garbage bags and reuse the same mask for a week or more (or worse use a lesser mask)
4) The explanation of the skewed cases to death ratio can also be explained by the death rates being underreported just as easily as the positive rates being over-reported
That's what i mean, you always look at it from a point of view you already have. It's almost as if you hope it's bad to prove your point. If the rate is lower than being reported and people are not dying due to what you stated and other things, that's good isn't it? I don't view this as a contest. I hope someone gets an answer soon and I don't care who it is.
Quote from: FL GMAN on July 15, 2020, 09:06:17 AM
Before everyone makes a judgement, you may have to wait. There is evidence of massive errors in Florida's reporting. They have discovered that many labs were not reporting any negative results which increases the positive percentage. They are also reporting that a significant number of sites are reporting 100% positive results. The Orlando hospital was being reported as a 98% positive rate when the reality was 9.4%. In addition the Florida death rate is nowhere near what happened in N.Y. nor does it correlate to the positive % being reported. This will come out in the next few days with the Governor possibly discussing today.
I can confirm that with what my wife told me on Saturday. They are not required to report negatives. They are required to report positives.
Quote from: FL GMAN on July 15, 2020, 11:25:35 AM
That's what i mean, you always look at it from a point of view you already have. It's almost as if you hope it's bad to prove your point. If the rate is lower than being reported and people are not dying due to what you stated and other things, that's good isn't it? I don't view this as a contest. I hope someone gets an answer soon and I don't care who it is.
I was looking at Florida's death rates. You can see them here
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/
The individual day bar chart is a bit ragged (indicating that deaths are likely not reported immediately so they can be over and under-reported on a given day). So what I did was check the 7-day rolling average option to get a better feel for things What you see is a peak in early May. After that, there was a small decline for a little bit and then started rising around the end of June.
Quote from: Jim143 on July 15, 2020, 11:32:38 AM
I can confirm that with what my wife told me on Saturday. They are not required to report negatives. They are required to report positives.
If you know how many tests were done and the positives you have all the information you need mathematically speaking
All the information is not being reported which is why they are investigating. If what you said were true we wouldn't have locations with a 100% infection rate. I don't know the requirements but I heard on the news this morning that they were required to report negatives. I also think you overlooked the largest determining factor in the death rate which is the different treatment of Nursing Home residents in the 2 states.
Quote from: FL GMAN on July 15, 2020, 12:01:12 PM
All the information is not being reported which is why they are investigating. If what you said were true we wouldn't have locations with a 100% infection rate. I don't know the requirements but I heard on the news this morning that they were required to report negatives. I also think you overlooked the largest determining factor in the death rate which is the different treatment of Nursing Home residents in the 2 states.
I dug into this and I see what you are saying. As Jim mentioned, some places are only reporting positive tests to the state which creates wildly high "percent positive" numbers.
The percent positive of people tested is an important number and skewed numbers will not help properly monitor what is going on.
Still, those skewed percentages would not affect the total number of positive cases in any way. In other words, new case numbers and total case numbers are valid regardless of the reporting issues skewing percent positive rates of people tested.
I also know that over the weekend Jim reported back what sounded like reasonable percent positive rates that his wife was aware of
As for nursing homes, they enjoyed a lot more time to get ready and were able to take advantage of lessons learned (and more PPE and better treatments) from what NY and NJ had to go through.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 15, 2020, 11:38:22 AM
I was looking at Florida's death rates. You can see them here
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/
The individual day bar chart is a bit ragged (indicating that deaths are likely not reported immediately so they can be over and under-reported on a given day). So what I did was check the 7-day rolling average option to get a better feel for things What you see is a peak in early May. After that, there was a small decline for a little bit and then started rising around the end of June.
If you know how many tests were done and the positives you have all the information you need mathematically speaking
Problem with that is - all she sees are the results (mixed in with tests for other diseases her department is responsible for) - she doesn't see the total numbers
"The World Health Organization (WHO) was founded in 1948 as a special agency of the United Nations. With nearly two hundred member countries, the agency implements worldwide programs to prevent and eliminate disease. But the WHO
Good Post Len (I didn't quote it as it's too long), do you know what is ironic? Many of the same people who are attacking WHO because they say they were too deferential to China seem to have completely forgotten that their man Donald Trump was praising China for its good handling and transparency at the very same time.
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
Quote from: LennG on July 15, 2020, 12:39:17 PM
"The World Health Organization (WHO) was founded in 1948 as a special agency of the United Nations. With nearly two hundred member countries, the agency implements worldwide programs to prevent and eliminate disease. But the WHO
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 15, 2020, 10:37:58 AM
Rich: That seems about right, but I must ask.... is there no chance some states intentionally opened up slower by implementing more precautions than the guidelines suggested were necessary? No need to answer that. I mention it only to point out that there is another side of the story. If some states DID go slower, good for them. If some went faster, it was because they believed it was in the best interest of their residents to do so. The response to a public health crisis should not be determined in a vacuum that considers ONLY one type of "health." That's why each state has a chief executive... to determine the over-all "best" solution. It's not a clear-cut "science only" proposition, and again that is why I refuse to criticize any of them. Bob
Erroring on the side of safety is usually considered a reasonable choice, whiling erroring on the side of danger usually isn't
Here is a comment by VP Mike Pence at a roundtable for reopening of higher education that I found troubling from a public health perspective
QuoteBut let me say, as the director of CDC said not long ago, we don
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 15, 2020, 12:54:34 PM
Lenn: A really nice job. Bob
You know Bob, I like you--even if you are a Republican. <:-P <:-P <:-P <:-P <:-P <:-P
=)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =))
Quote from: LennG on July 15, 2020, 07:51:18 PM
You know Bob, I like you--even if you are a Republican. <:-P <:-P <:-P <:-P <:-P <:-P
=)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =))
Lenn: As I have sought to emphasize, I have never been a member of any political party, nor have I ever given money to any party or candidate. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 15, 2020, 11:35:53 PM
Lenn: As I have sought to emphasize, I have never been a member of any political party, nor have I ever given money to any party or candidate. Bob
C'mon, Lenny; I'm the Republican around here! :yes: :yes: :yes:
Sometimes, you don't need to say it directly
(https://i.imgur.com/qBusBnJ.jpg)
Many American public-health specialists are at risk of burning out as the coronavirus surges back.
ED YONG
JULY 7, 2020
It's an excellent read
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/07/pandemic-experts-are-not-okay/613879/?fbclid=IwAR2CGtNbCOLAgzfbLTRsYwyoPJPBfIJEfF1OKiQy_KaSY5yYf17Z5AgkpZk
Yes, they have been "ordered" to be open 5 days a week, full class load, etc. But Miami, Broward, Duval and a few other larger counties are bucking that order and are opening up half with half virtual
Also - regarding the reports of Florida Labs screwing up and "cooking the books". . . . .this is an eye opening comment from the inside. . . .
Sadly, all those reporting
Quote from: Jim143 on July 16, 2020, 09:48:26 AM
Also - regarding the reports of Florida Labs screwing up and "cooking the books". . . . .this is an eye opening comment from the inside. . . .
Sadly, all those reporting
Can someone explain to me why Republican Brian Kemp decided this was a good idea and in the best interest of his state's citizens?!?! (Pardon the interrobang, but the sheer stupidity/callous disregard for life is beyond upsetting for me)
QuoteGeorgia governor bans cities from ordering people to wear face masks
Updated on: July 16, 2020 / 9:09 AM / CBS/AP
Georgia's Gov. Brian Kemp is explicitly banning Georgia's cities and counties from ordering people to wear masks in public places. He voided orders on Wednesday that at least 15 local governments across the state had adopted even though Kemp had earlier said cities and counties had no power to order masks during the coronavirus pandemic.
An increasing number of other states order residents to wear masks in public, including Alabama, which announced such a ban Wednesday.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ohio-veteran-who-refused-to-wear-a-mask-dies-of-coronavirus-complications/ar-BB16Pakn?ocid=anaheim-ntp-feeds
An Ohio Army veteran died of the coronavirus just two months after he publicly condemned the use of face masks in an online social media post.
The veteran, who served in the U.S. Army for nine years with two tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, was adamant about not wearing a face mask amid the pandemic, calling the precaution just part of the "hype" in an April 28 Facebook post.
"Let me make this clear. I'm not buying a f
I can't help but wonder how many other people he infected or possibly killed
Quote from: jimv on July 16, 2020, 12:29:11 AM
C'mon, Lenny; I'm the Republican around here! :yes: :yes: :yes:
Jim
Compared to Bob, you are FAR RIGHT, but he is quickly chasing you. /sarcasm/ /sarcasm/ /sarcasm/
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: LennG on July 15, 2020, 12:39:17 PM
"The World Health Organization (WHO) was founded in 1948 as a special agency of the United Nations. With nearly two hundred member countries, the agency implements worldwide programs to prevent and eliminate disease. But the WHO
Quote from: jimmyz on July 16, 2020, 12:47:31 PM
Says.....some liberal with an opinion.
and this is why the right works so hard to demonize liberals and try to paint them as the villains
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 16, 2020, 12:57:25 PM
and this is why the right works so hard to demonize liberals and try to paint them as the villains
The only demonizing I've seen around here is in the opposite direction.
Quote from: jimmyz on July 16, 2020, 01:03:48 PM
The only demonizing I've seen around here is in the opposite direction.
You are quite selective in what you choose to "see". Bob has his NY Time thread attacking liberals and you just posted a thread from another anti-liberal liberal. You don't need to see it, you actively participate in the smearing of liberals so you say "what do expect they are liberal" rather than deal with an issue based on fact and reason
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 16, 2020, 01:05:00 PM
You are quite selective in what you choose to "see". Bob has his NY Time thread attacking liberals and you just posted a thread from another anti-liberal liberal. You don't need to see it, you actively participate in the smearing of liberals so you say "what do expect they are liberal" rather than deal with an issue based on fact and reason
Sorry you feel that way. :P
Quote from: jimmyz on July 16, 2020, 01:10:07 PM
Sorry you feel that way. :P
but not sorry enough to stop doing it
Also acccording to WorldOmeter, the US (with many states still not reporting) has past the 140,000 death mark today :(
What would you put on his gravestone?
I Guess I was Wrong
No Do Overs
Lenn: Sorry to hear about that, but there is no way to prove that he contracted the disease as a result of not wearing a mask.
It is also possible he engaged in other risky behavior (more risky than wearing a mask) which may have caused his death (in whole or in part).
I don't put much weight in isolated (anecdotal) examples cited to prove a much broader point. They just aren't convincing, no matter which "side" posts them.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 16, 2020, 02:23:18 PM
Lenn: Sorry to hear about that, but there is no way to prove that he contracted the disease as a result of not wearing a mask.
It is also possible he engaged in other risky behavior (more risky than wearing a mask) which may have caused his death (in whole or in part).
I don't put much weight in isolated (anecdotal) examples cited to prove a much broader point. They just aren't convincing, no matter which "side" posts them.
Bob
Bob,
Are you suggesting that the science on masks helping to prevent the spread of Covid is not proven science at this point?
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 16, 2020, 02:25:34 PM
Bob,
Are you suggesting that the science on masks helping to prevent the spread of Covid is not proven science at this point?
Rich: No, but now that you mention masks, studies of the use of masks to protect against the FLU VIRUSES have almost uniformly established that masks play no significant role in preventing spread of the flu.
This fact may be a non sequitur as applied to a novel coronavirus, but it is one of the chief reasons, IMO, why Fauci first stated (generally speaking) that masks were not necessary.
Why he later changed his mind and decided to start recommending the wearing of masks is not clear to me.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 16, 2020, 03:03:10 PM
Rich: No, but now that you mention masks, studies of the use of masks to protect against the FLU VIRUSES have almost uniformly established that masks play no significant role in preventing spread of the flu.
This fact may be a non sequitur as applied to a novel coronavirus, but it is one of the chief reasons, IMO, why Fauci first stated (generally speaking) that masks were not necessary.
Why he later changed his mind and decided to start recommending the wearing of masks is not clear to me.
Bob
Bob,
As someone who knows exactly what went down in reference with masks and Covid, let me share this:
1) Once it was established that Covid could be transferred from person to person it was believed that the transmission was from airborne droplets (most being generated by coughing and sneezing)
2) It was originally believed (not certain but believed) that people without symptoms were not contagious
3) When the outbreak started there was a massive (and deadly) shortage of N95 masks (and to a lesser extend surgical masks)
4) Because of points 2 and 3 (they thought people would buy up and hoard the limited supplies of masks) it was advised that only symptomatic people were masks and that those who were not sick shouldn't wear a mask. The idea was for sick people to stay home or wear a mask and everyone else would be safe.
5) Since then we learned that asymptomatic people could spread the disease. This was a game-changer and it resulted in rethinking the whole mask-wearing strategy
6) Surgical masks and even cloth face coverings (when worn by the infected) have been proven effective in lowering the spread of the disease.
7) Surgical masks and even cloth face coverings will provide some protection for the non-infected
8) I would advise getting KN-95 masks if you want to protect yourself (ideally the ones on the FDA's emergency use list) as this will give much better protection than a surgical mask
9) speaking of surgical masks, they are like the kid that doesn't test well. Surgical masks rarely test well but when they do studies of people wearing them, they seem to provide better protection than the tests indicate.
10) N-95 (when properly fit tested) is the gold standard and this is the mask that is effective in stopping any airborne infection I am aware of. They are very difficult for professionals to obtain especially early on
11) As early as February my agency (including me) was going to have to drive people who were potentially exposed (having come from Wuhan) but were asymptomatic. Even with the guidance, we were going to have them wear a surgical mask and the driver was going to wear an N-95 and googles. We knew that was above the standard at the time but as public health professionals, we knew there was a good chance that the standards of protection could increase as we learned more about the disease.
No where in the Covid Mask history did we consider the flu and how masks are in terms of protection. The reason why was there were enough other Corona viruses out there to use for comparisons.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 16, 2020, 02:23:18 PM
Lenn: Sorry to hear about that, but there is no way to prove that he contracted the disease as a result of not wearing a mask.
It is also possible he engaged in other risky behavior (more risky than wearing a mask) which may have caused his death (in whole or in part).
I don't put much weight in isolated (anecdotal) examples cited to prove a much broader point. They just aren't convincing, no matter which "side" posts them.
Bob
No, we don't Bob, but we are still intelligent adults and it has been beaten into our minds for the past two months, maybe more, that wearing a mask WILL help prevent one from catching the virus. There was this dude who basically shouted at the top of his lungs, he ain't wearing a F**king mask, no way, no how. Sure we can't say as 100% certain that if he had worn a mask he would still be alive, but it sure looks like a pretty good possibility.
The point was also, that here was a 37-year-old guy, supposedly in good to perfect health, got sick, and died.
You CAN be young, healthy and still die from this virus, so why take chances because some refuse to wear that 'F**king mask.
Do you think if Trump had worn a mask right from when most experts felt that wearing one would help keep you and others safe, we would have all this 'I'm not wearing one" stuff that we see on the news basically every day? It has become a political statement, why--because Trump made people believe the 'his' people don't need masks.
Quote from: LennG on July 16, 2020, 05:04:01 PM
No, we don't Bob, but we are still intelligent adults and it has been beaten into our minds for the past two months, maybe more, that wearing a mask WILL help prevent one from catching the virus. There was this dude who basically shouted at the top of his lungs, he ain't wearing a F**king mask, no way, no how. Sure we can't say as 100% certain that if he had worn a mask he would still be alive, but it sure looks like a pretty good possibility.
The point was also, that here was a 37-year-old guy, supposedly in good to perfect health, got sick, and died.
You CAN be young, healthy and still die from this virus, so why take chances because some refuse to wear that 'F**king mask.
Do you think if Trump had worn a mask right from when most experts felt that wearing one would help keep you and others safe, we would have all this 'I'm not wearing one" stuff that we see on the news basically every day? It has become a political statement, why--because Trump made people believe the 'his' people don't need masks.
Bob, loves to say you shouldn't listen to all the (horrible) things Trump says (horrible is my word) and just look at what he does. Only when you are the President of the United States, what you say and the example you set matters, it matters greatly. I think it's safe to say Donald Trump personally is responsible for needless Covid deaths (how many, I have no clue) because for months he discouraged the wearing of masks (even going so far as trying to make fun of Biden for wearing one) by what he said and the example he set. If Trump had done the right thing, not only would lives have been saved, but maybe we wouldn't have these crazy anti-maskers who attack people (verbally or physically) when they are asked to put on a mask.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 16, 2020, 02:23:18 PM
Lenn: Sorry to hear about that, but there is no way to prove that he contracted the disease as a result of not wearing a mask.
It is also possible he engaged in other risky behavior (more risky than wearing a mask) which may have caused his death (in whole or in part).
I don't put much weight in isolated (anecdotal) examples cited to prove a much broader point. They just aren't convincing, no matter which "side" posts them.
Bob
Prove? Of course not, but it is safe to say if he DID wear the mask the chances of him getting sick would have been much less. Could have still got sick? Of course, but when you are as vocal and as condescending on social media as this guy was, it is hard for people to feel any sympathy. Young guy, feel bad for his family and just hope he didn't have any young kids.
I keep hearing about how Trump doesn't have a plan. One quarter of all covid deaths in the United States are in the state of New York. Great plan! /sarcasm/ Bob
Please post all COVID-19-related items here.
Quote from: T200 on July 16, 2020, 10:29:42 PM
Please post all COVID-19-related items here.
Tim: Oops. Sorry about that. Tired eyes! Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 01:20:46 AM
Tim: Oops. Sorry about that. Tired eyes! Bob
No worries, Bob. One team - one fight! :ok:
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 16, 2020, 10:09:30 PM
I keep hearing about how Trump doesn't have a plan. One quarter of all covid deaths in the United States are in the state of New York. Great plan! /sarcasm/ Bob
NY went from one worst to first, so yeah there was a "plan", one that was a hell of a lot better than what Trump and the GOP has been putting out there
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 17, 2020, 07:36:32 AM
NY went from one worst to first, so yeah there was a "plan", one that was a hell of a lot better than what Trump and the GOP has been putting out there
Rich: Damn right they did. New York now has 1/4 of all covid deaths in the United States. Bob
By the way, New York is roughly 6 percent of the total population of the United States.
Quote from: coggs on July 16, 2020, 09:50:49 PM
Prove? Of course not, but it is safe to say if he DID wear the mask the chances of him getting sick would have been much less. Could have still got sick? Of course, but when you are as vocal and as condescending on social media as this guy was, it is hard for people to feel any sympathy. Young guy, feel bad for his family and just hope he didn't have any young kids.
coggs: Be careful to distinguish between the effectiveness of a mask to prevent you from getting sick -vs- effectiveness of the mask to prevent you from transmitting the disease.
I know it's a nit-pick but ALL OF SCIENCE IS nitpicking (meaning that in a good way). The wording can make a big difference in certain contexts (like when reading the scientific studies).
The science right now says generally that masks are unlikely to help avoid viruses if you don't wash dirty hands AND maintain social distancing AND refrain from touching your face with contaminated hands.
Bob
I think population density is the key factor in the issue of virus-spreading. Not testing (which unavoidably increases the number of KNOWN cases) and not "plans."
"Plans" is a Democrat talking-point in response to Trump (correctly IMO) leaving to each individual state the power to implement whatever "plan" they believed was best for their particular state.
There is no doubt in my mind that if Trump HAD implemented a national "plan" they would be calling on Trump to allow individual states to develop their own plans. Being in charge is a no-win proposition.
Bob
PS. And all of that applies equally to the individual state "plans" and the Governors who implemented them.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 09:30:39 AM
coggs: Be careful to distinguish between the effectiveness of a mask to prevent you from getting sick -vs- effectiveness of the mask to prevent you from transmitting the disease.
I know it's a nit-pick but ALL OF SCIENCE IS nitpicking (meaning that in a good way). The wording can make a big difference in certain contexts (like when reading the scientific studies).
The science right now says generally that masks are unlikely to help avoid viruses if you don't wash dirty hands AND maintain social distancing AND refrain from touching your face with contaminated hands.
Bob
Want to know something funny? I tell people the biggest threat out there are the non-mask wearers. I say they pose a two-fold threat. First off, they are not wearing a mask and hence they are much more likely to get you sick if they are sick. What makes it some much worse is that non-mask wearers are engaging in risky behavior and so are far more likely to be infected in the first place.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 09:45:08 AM
I think population density is the key factor in the issue of virus-spreading. Not testing (which unavoidably increases the number of KNOWN cases) and not "plans."
"Plans" is a Democrat talking-point in response to Trump (correctly IMO) leaving to each individual state the power to implement whatever "plan" they believed was best for their particular state.
There is no doubt in my mind that if Trump HAD implemented a national "plan" they would be calling on Trump to allow individual states to develop their own plans. Being in charge is a no-win proposition.
Bob
PS. And all of that applies equally to the individual state "plans" and the Governors who implemented them.
Do you think it was appropriate for the White House to tell the public not to let science get in the way of their plans/desires?
Do you think it was appropriate to allow the Governor of Georgia to negate local laws requiring masks?
You talk about "democratic talking points", Bob. The reality is it's the Republicans who are the only ones playing politics with this disease and their political games are literally killing Americans. I really am at a loss at how you can't recognize that, other than I see you read a lot of opinion pieces and they are all of people who are the game players.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAh4uS4f78o
Fox got it wrong from the start and then jumped on the Florida and Texas early reopen plan. Yep, they got that one wrong again.
Just found the Fox News victory lap video, enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGDNaB6fZCU
Quote from: umassgrad on July 17, 2020, 09:47:51 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAh4uS4f78o
Fox got it wrong from the start and then jumped on the Florida and Texas early reopen plan. Yep, they got that one wrong again.
You know the old saying about the dog biting you once, shame on the dog, if the dog bites you twice shame on you.
The right/Trump-supporters/GOP were bitten once (with FOX and Trump downplaying the threat) and instead of avoiding the dog they decided to adopt him >:D
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 17, 2020, 09:50:46 AM
You know the old saying about the dog biting you once, shame on the dog, if the dog bites you twice shame on you.
The right/Trump-supporters/GOP were bitten once (with FOX and Trump downplaying the threat) and instead of avoiding the dog they decided to adopt him >:D
It's sad Rich but true. I don't think we needed Trump to tell each state exactly what to do but he could have guided them a little better. For example, Trump and Fox News were pushing the cure is worse than the disease or something like that. All the Trump talk of "we've got to open up our economy!" Trump rallies in Tulsa with no masks or social distancing required, and now Trump saying schools must open no matter what. All of these things are examples of Trump and his crew promoting bad practices that have led the US to the horrific number of new cases each day. Trumps words lead to actions because we have a lot of not so bright folks that are his followers, see Florida governor.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 17, 2020, 09:47:12 AM
Want to know something funny? I tell people the biggest threat out there are the non-mask wearers. I say they pose a two-fold threat. First off, they are not wearing a mask and hence they are much more likely to get you sick if they are sick. What makes it some much worse is that non-mask wearers are engaging in risky behavior and so are far more likely to be infected in the first place.
Rich: I also forgot to mention the guideline (more like the common sense) to not go out into public if/when you are ill. That's obvious, but it does not occur to all people, and some I suppose have no choice. Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 17, 2020, 09:47:12 AM
Do you think it was appropriate for the White House to tell the public not to let science get in the way of their plans/desires?
Rich: If you have something to support this contention, please post it. Otherwise, I respectfully request your withdraw it. Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 17, 2020, 09:47:12 AM
Do you think it was appropriate to allow the Governor of Georgia to negate local laws requiring masks?
Rich: Exactly who is "allowing" the Governor to do that? Who has the power to stop him? Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 17, 2020, 09:47:12 AM
You talk about "democratic talking points", Bob. The reality is it's the Republicans who are the only ones playing politics with this disease and their political games are literally killing Americans. I really am at a loss at how you can't recognize that, other than I see you read a lot of opinion pieces and they are all of people who are the game players.
Rich: Statements like this completely deplete your credibility. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 10:06:29 AM
Rich: If you have something to support this contention, please post it. Otherwise, I respectfully request your withdraw it. Bob
It's amazing the things you are willing to believe, but I make a statement and you doubt me (despite my history of careful vetting and statements)
Jim Acosta
@Acosta
The White House Press Secretary on Trump's push to reopen schools: "The science should not stand in the way of this."
3:01 PM
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 10:08:00 AM
Rich: Exactly who is "allowing" the Governor to do that? Who has the power to stop him? Bob
Bob- I believe Rich is referring to the Georgia governor filing a lawsuit against the mayor of Atlanta's must wear a. mask order with the hopes of not making wearing a mask mandatory. I will look for a link.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 10:08:00 AM
Rich: Exactly who is "allowing" the Governor to do that? Who has the power to stop him? Bob
Donald Trump for one. Do you think the governor would reverse the course of Donald did one of his public call-outs?
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 10:06:29 AM
Rich: If you have something to support this contention, please post it. Otherwise, I respectfully request your withdraw it. Bob
QuoteAsked about President Donald Trump's message to parents as some schools opt to go fully online in the coming weeks, McEnany said "the president has said unmistakably that he wants schools to open."
"And I was just in the Oval talking to him about that," she said. "When he says open, he means open in full, kids being able to attend each and every day in their school. The science should not stand in the way of this."
Link: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/white-house-press-secretary-science-should-not-stand-way-schools-n1234102
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 10:09:27 AM
Rich: Statements like this completely deplete your credibility. Bob
Bob,
Do you think in light of you posting links from FOX News and other far-right propaganda sources that are known to distort the truth (to put it nicely), that it is appropriate for you to then turn around and question my credibility? I am calling it as I see it. I have been in public health under George Bush, Barack Obama, and now Donald Trump. Only Trump politically interfered with the national public health process. That is a fact, not even an opinion. Only FOX News (and similar outlets) mislead the public about Covid, that is another fact, not opinion.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 17, 2020, 10:11:57 AM
It's amazing the things you are willing to believe, but I make a statement and you doubt me (despite my history of careful vetting and statements)
Jim Acosta
@Acosta
The White House Press Secretary on Trump's push to reopen schools: "The science should not stand in the way of this."
3:01 PM
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 17, 2020, 10:11:57 AM
It's amazing the things you are willing to believe, but I make a statement and you doubt me (despite my history of careful vetting and statements)
Jim Acosta
@Acosta
The White House Press Secretary on Trump's push to reopen schools: "The science should not stand in the way of this."
3:01 PM
Quote from: umassgrad on July 17, 2020, 10:03:34 AM
It's sad Rich but true. I don't think we needed Trump to tell each state exactly what to do but he could have guided them a little better. For example, Trump and Fox News were pushing the cure is worse than the disease or something like that. All the Trump talk of "we've got to open up our economy!" Trump rallies in Tulsa with no masks or social distancing required, and now Trump saying schools must open no matter what. All of these things are examples of Trump and his crew promoting bad practices that have led the US to the horrific number of new cases each day. Trumps words lead to actions because we have a lot of not so bright folks that are his followers, see Florida governor.
umass: Being President requires weighing of ALL national interests and striking a balance. He is doing what he thinks is in the overall best national interests, and each Governor is doing likewise for his or her state. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 10:31:59 AM
umass: Being President requires weighing of ALL national interests and striking a balance. He is doing what he thinks is in the overall best national interests, and each Governor is doing likewise for his or her state. Bob
How do you know this to be true?
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 17, 2020, 10:13:00 AM
Donald Trump for one. Do you think the governor would reverse the course of Donald did one of his public call-outs?
Rich: The President of the United States has no power to overrule a Governor. The "bully pulpit" has the power of persuasion, maybe, but it is not the power to affect legal change. Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 17, 2020, 10:36:52 AM
How do you know this to be true?
Rich: Because every politician wants to succeed and be correct about his decisions all of the time. Is this news to you? Or will you next contend that Trump is intentionally trying to kill you? Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 10:28:17 AM
Rich: My hearing isn't the best, but those were NOT her words... she either said "the scientists do not stand in the way of this" or "the scieneS do not stand in the way of this." Bob
Bob,
I have to confess that sometimes your responses disappoint me. Here is literally the official White House transcript
QuoteMS. MCENANY: You know, the President has said unmistakably that he wants schools to open. And I was just in the Oval talking to him about that. And when he says open, he means open in full
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 10:38:57 AM
Rich: Because every politician wants to succeed and be correct about his decisions all of the time. Is this news to you? Or will you next contend that Trump is intentionally trying to kill you? Bob
By "succeed" do you mean to stay in office or do the right thing, as they are not always the same thing?
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 10:38:57 AM
Rich: Because every politician wants to succeed and be correct about his decisions all of the time. Is this news to you? Or will you next contend that Trump is intentionally trying to kill you? Bob
Is it possible that some politicians might do things that benefit him or her personally that could not be in the best interest of the people he serves?
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 17, 2020, 10:40:17 AM
Bob,
I have to confess that sometimes your responses disappoint me. Here is literally the official White House transcript
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/press-briefing-press-secretary-kayleigh-mcenany-7-16-2020/
I
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 17, 2020, 10:51:00 AM
Ron,
I spent a lifetime paying attention to context (and partly because I have often had to interpret laws and regulations for my jobs), and I have to respectfully disagree at the statement clearly was Trump wants schools fully opened and science shouldn't stand in the way. There is no way that the wording can be reasonably read interpreted differently, in my opinion
This is the part of her remarks where I drew my conclusion
The science is very clear on this, that
Quote from: Ron in NJ on July 17, 2020, 10:58:20 AM
This is the part of her remarks where I drew my conclusion
The science is very clear on this, that
Quote from: Ron in NJ on July 17, 2020, 10:58:20 AM
This is the part of her remarks where I drew my conclusion
The science is very clear on this, that
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 17, 2020, 11:13:08 AM
The science of the health risk to children or the science of disease spread? There are two significant issues at play, not one. Also what about the health of teachers and staff?
I would also remind you that this is a novel virus and the long term effects from it are not fully understood but I have not seen a disease that has such detrimental effects on such a wide variety of body systems as we have seen with Covid. So I don't think it's safe to assume that just because they didn't get critically ill, that there are not other risks.
Like I said, you can disagree with her conclusions, but she is not saying to ignore the science.
Quote from: Ron in NJ on July 17, 2020, 11:16:21 AM
Like I said, you can disagree with her conclusions, but she is not saying to ignore the science.
Correct, she said don't let science stand in the way of Trump's desire to fully open up schools
As I said, there is more science at work, Ron
Scientists at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention drew up guidelines for re-opening schools, the CDC endorsed a school environment in which educators should, among other things, distance kids within classrooms, build physical barriers to prevent infections, and go to staggered scheduling to minimize interactions.
That science was dismissed by Trump:
(http://)
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 17, 2020, 10:40:17 AM
Bob,
I have to confess that sometimes your responses disappoint me. Here is literally the official White House transcript
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/press-briefing-press-secretary-kayleigh-mcenany-7-16-2020/
Rich: I was going to address this in a PS above, but first tell me... did they ask her what she meant? Did they ask her if she misspoke? (I have an answer. I just drawing this out a bit for dramatic effect). Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 11:25:13 AM
Rich: I was going to address this in a PS above, but first tell me... did they ask her what she meant? Did they ask her if she misspoke? (I have an answer. I just drawing this out a bit for dramatic effect). Bob
So are you suggesting Donald Trump hired a press secretary who isn't very good at communicating? I have training on how dealing with the press and I can tell you if you think it's the reporter's job to clarify YOUR points, then it's best you don't speak with the press.
Plus, the CDC science on what schools should do to safely open up schools was soundly dismissed by Donald Trump. So I see nothing that conflicts with here "don't let science stand in the way" comment.
As I said, I rarely post opinion articles. That said, I also qualified that on technical matters, opinions from experts have value. In that vein, I offer up
John M. Barry is a professor at the Tulane University School of Public Health and Tropical Medicine and the author of
Tim and Ron (and I suspect a silent majority) have addressed the "context" aspect of the statement (with which you continue to argue) and most of the semantics issues (which are effecting your interpretation).
Their words express my point of view on the "context" aspect, but I'm going to eventually make a point about one more word.... the word "should" (hint: versus use of the word "shall" or "must").
You've asked a lot of questions, all of which to this point I have answered. But I asked a question and all I got is more questions in return.... did they ask her what she meant? Or did they ask her if she misspoke?
Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 17, 2020, 11:41:40 AM
As I said, I rarely post opinion articles. That said, I also qualified that on technical matters, opinions from experts have value. In that vein, I offer up
John M. Barry is a professor at the Tulane University School of Public Health and Tropical Medicine and the author of
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 12:25:26 PM
Rich: Medically, it's good stuff. He's a doctor and IMO is doing a good job of being a doctor and stating his opinion.
But being President or a Governor is not the same as being a doctor.
Chief execs must solve the "equation" of what public policy is "best" for their jurisdiction, and clearly the weight to be given to "medicine" should be high, and should always remain so.
Any chief executive would be remiss in his duties if he or she gave it anything other than high priority (because it involves lives).
But it does not mean that THAT single phase of "medicine" is the ONLY medical factor... there are also other medical factors that carry weight on the other side of the argument (and they ALSO involve lives).
Bob
Bob,
Your comments tell me that you don't fully appreciate what public health is, as it's not "medicine"
CDC
PUBLIC HEALTH CONNECTS US ALL.
Public health is the science of protecting and improving the health of people and their communities. This work is achieved by promoting healthy lifestyles, researching disease and injury prevention, and detecting, preventing and responding to infectious diseases.
Overall, public health is concerned with protecting the health of entire populations. These populations can be as small as a local neighborhood, or as big as an entire country or region of the world.
Public health professionals try to prevent problems from happening or recurring through implementing educational programs, recommending policies, administering services and conducting research
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 10:31:59 AM
umass: Being President requires weighing of ALL national interests and striking a balance. He is doing what he thinks is in the overall best national interests, and each Governor is doing likewise for his or her state. Bob
Bob
Do YOU really believe this? That Trump has the NATIONAL interests at heart? If so, you really have to be kidding. Trump couldn't care one iota about anyone who might be a Democrat and probably could care 1/2 an iota about most of those others who support him. He plays to a crowd, but in private he probably despises them all. Really, you have been watching this move towards re-election and that is all he cares about. Every move, every statement, every tweet is all about how he is viewed and towards his re-election bid. Why else would he have pushed so hard to get states to reopen--the economy, his ONLY saving grace in his presidency. He wants schools reopened, not because he cares if the little kiddies will learn or have a good environment, but if they go back to school, parents go back to work and economy numbers might rise. He couldn't care a diddley about kids, people even hos own people, only Donald Trump. No one is saying that the economy isn't important, but since that this his ONLY platform, that is all he cares about.
We know him for a very long time, being a NYer. We have seen him grow, we have seen him for what he really is. a spoiled rich kid who had everything he ever wanted or needed. If he failed, his daddy bailed him out and that happened quite often. He goes thru women like a sieve, marriages mean nothing, children are just objects for him to sue as he chooses. When he couldn't get his way, he throws a garage of lawyers into the mix until people just get tired of fighting him. He doesn't win with honesty, he wins by being dishonest and a tyrant. If you really think he cares about all the peo[ple of this country, I have a very nice bridge I'm trying to sell.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 10:37:19 AM
Rich: The President of the United States has no power to overrule a Governor. The "bully pulpit" has the power of persuasion, maybe, but it is not the power to affect legal change. Bob
At first, he thought he did
QuoteTrump said it was within his presidential powers to override governors in deciding whether and how a state should reopen.
And the next day, after Governors like Cuomo and several others from the NorthEast, basically called him on this, he backed down. To this day he feels he can do anything he desires as President. Just not so.
Quote from: umassgrad on July 17, 2020, 09:50:38 AM
Just found the Fox News victory lap video, enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGDNaB6fZCU
This should be Biden's entire campaign. He should air these clips, and just add "Is this what you want next time we are faced with something disastrous?". he doesn't have to do anything else. They speak for themselves.
Quote from: LennG on July 17, 2020, 02:14:30 PM
This should be Biden's entire campaign. He should air these clips, and just add "Is this what you want next time we are faced with something disastrous?". he doesn't have to do anything else. They speak for themselves.
Fox News = xxxxxxxx Central and the scariest part is this is where our president gets his ideas =)) =))
Quote from: umassgrad on July 17, 2020, 03:41:17 PM
Fox News = xxxxxxxx Central and the scariest part is this is where our president gets his ideas =)) =))
Trump answers the question- What would happen if a person whose world views were shaped by FOX "News" became President
https://i0.wp.com/www.bitsandpieces.us/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Relative-importance-in-2020-so-far.jpg?fit=600%2C600&ssl=1
(courtesy of my cousin)
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 03:48:07 PM
https://apis.mail.yahoo.com/ws/v3/mailboxes/@.id==VjN-OBSZ7ugV3OGsOVLqzt_HOXDKv_yFU_366uiMjKhlfgrzHxJaeR_jiL9GL_Ou_nu_6F676llwJijNHGM9Rx73ng/messages/@.id==AGk_AWIEVgdPXxH4tArhKBa93DE/content/parts/@.id==2/thumbnail?appId=YMailNodin&page=1
(courtesy of my cousin)
Bob,
That link doesn't work
Rich: I think this one will work. Bob
https://i0.wp.com/www.bitsandpieces.us/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Relative-importance-in-2020-so-far.jpg?fit=600%2C600&ssl=1
PS. Also replaced the one in my original attempt.
Kind of clever
(https://i0.wp.com/www.bitsandpieces.us/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Relative-importance-in-2020-so-far.jpg?fit=600%2C600&ssl=1)
I don't think I agree (I already gone into great detail about masks) but I could see how some people could feel that way, especially if you get your Covid news/information from certain sources.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 17, 2020, 04:06:07 PM
Kind of clever
I don't think I agree (I already gone into great detail about masks) but I could see how some people could feel that way, especially if you get your Covid news/information from certain sources.
I think it's a thing they sell at "Bits and Pieces" (essentially a jigsaw puzzle seller) and someone drew on the extra line. Bob PS. Thanks for being only indirectly political. ~X(
I am wondering how Fox News has become the whipping boy for the left. There was a chart posted 3- 4 weeks ago (to lazy to find it) that showed FOX news was slightly of the center line as MSN and CNN were from the left.
We have many posters who post quotes from CNN and MSN, but they are not discredited like so many posters discredit Fox News.
I have not watched FoX news in over 15 years.
Seems to me this is a very large straw man created by the left.
Quote from: philo43 on July 17, 2020, 04:46:13 PM
I am wondering how Fox News has become the whipping boy for the left. There was a chart posted 3- 4 weeks ago (to lazy to find it) that showed FOX news was slightly of the center line as MSN and CNN were from the left.
We have many posters who post quotes from CNN and MSN, but they are not discredited like so many posters discredit Fox News.
I have not watched FoX news in over 15 years.
Seems to me this is a very large straw man created by the left.
You make a fair point about MSNBC and CNN not being much better than FOX. I will say that I think this chart is better than the previous one I posted as it seems to be newer and goes into more detail
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Second-Edition-News-Chart.V2.jpg)
Can someone tell me how this is in the best interest of the nation?!?!
Look I have no doubt the Democrats will ask tough questions and maybe some will be intended to make Trump look bad. However, this has been the way our nation has worked for a long time. Plus I am at a loss to see how less transparency would be good for our nation as we deal with this deadly virus
Quote
The Trump administration is rebuffing House Democrats' effort to hear testimony from Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Director Robert Redfield on safely reopening schools during the coronavirus pandemic.
House Education and Labor Committee Chairman Bobby Scott (D-Va.) sent Redfield a letter last week asking him or a CDC designee to testify at a hearing on how K-12 public schools can reopen for in-person classroom instruction this fall. But on Friday, Scott said his panel had been informed that the Trump administration would not allow CDC testimony at the hearing planned for next week.
Philo if you want to know why people are being so critical to FOX "News" I suggest you watch this video
Quote from: umassgrad on July 17, 2020, 09:50:38 AM
Just found the Fox News victory lap video, enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGDNaB6fZCU
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 17, 2020, 05:24:33 PM
I will say that I think this chart is better than the previous one I posted as it seems to be newer and goes into more detail
Rich: I can't agree with the major networks being in the middle. Pew Research (hardly conservative, actually pretty fair) does a rundown of the number of news stories pro-Trump versus anti-Trump and the number is in the neighborhood of 90 percent anti and less than 10 percent pro. The only difference between them and CNN and MSNBC is that the network channels don't have "opinion" shows which are merely advertisements for the respective political parties. During the Obama administration the comparison between pro- and anti-Obama was far, far different. Trump is being bashed by the networks in a somewhat different manner, but "bashed" nonetheless. And he still managed to win the Electoral College. I believe that is an achievement unparalleled in the history of Presidential elections. The closest things came on the other side of the ledger was the "fake news" that Dewey defeated Hoover, and that was just one incident. Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 17, 2020, 06:42:41 PM
Philo if you want to know why people are being so critical to FOX "News" I suggest you watch this video
Rich: IMO it takes a lot of chutzpah to put that video up.
For the better part of THREE YEARS IN A ROW all of the other TV outlets told us Trump colluded with Russia and Adam Schiff claimed to have"direct" evidence of collusion.
In other words, nearly every night, they took a premature "victory lap" and all of those laps turned out to be "fake news" and utterly wrong. And they never apologized to their viewers. Just moved on to the next lie.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 06:48:07 PM
Rich: I can't agree with the major networks being in the middle. Pew Research (hardly conservative, actually pretty fair) does a rundown of the number of news stories pro-Trump versus anti-Trump and the number is in the neighborhood of 90 percent anti and less than 10 percent pro. The only difference between them and CNN and MSNBC is that the network channels don't have "opinion" shows which are merely advertisements for the respective political parties. During the Obama administration the comparison between pro- and anti-Obama was far, far different. Trump is being bashed by the networks in a somewhat different manner, but "bashed" nonetheless. And he still managed to win the Electoral College. I believe that is an achievement unparalleled in the history of Presidential elections. The closest things came on the other side of the ledger was the "fake news" that Dewey defeated Hoover, and that was just one incident. Bob
Bob,
Look, I would love to look at the research that you are citing from Pew, but I can't find it (even with my Google skills). I really need to see the methodology on this one. I mean such a study has a great many challenges including:
1) What do define as Pro-Trump VS Anti-Trump
2) How do you decide what is newsworthy and what isn't
3) How many stories were there to pick from and how many of them were positive or negative
Until I see how they handled all those issues, I really can't take much stock in the study. Now if I can see they did an outstanding study where on a given night there were 10 positive stories (that were newsworthy) and 5 negative stories (that were newsworthy) but they ran 4 negative and only 1 positive then I will say the facts are on your side. If they don't, it's only your opinion that the network news is biases, which you are certainly entitled to.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 06:51:38 PM
Rich: IMO it takes a lot of chutzpah to put that video up.
For the better part of THREE YEARS IN A ROW all of the other TV outlets told us Trump colluded with Russia and Adam Schiff claimed to have"direct" evidence of collusion.
In other words, nearly every night, they took a premature "victory lap" and all of those laps turned out to be "fake news" and utterly wrong. And they never apologized to their viewers. Just moved on to the next lie.
Bob
Roger Stone and Trump's pardon
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 17, 2020, 06:56:25 PM
Bob,
Look, I would love to look at the research that you are citing from Pew, but I can't find it (even with my Google skills). I really need to see the methodology on this one. I mean such a study has a great many challenges including:
1) What do define as Pro-Trump VS Anti-Trump
2) How do you decide what is newsworthy and what isn't
3) How many stories were there to pick from and how many of them were positive or negative
Until I see how they handled all those issues, I really can't take much stock in the study. Now if I can see their did an outstanding study where on a given night there were 10 positive stories (that were newsworthy) and 5 negative stories (that were newsworthy) but they ran 4 negative and only 1 positive than I will say the facts are on your side. If they don't, it's only your opinion that the network news is biases, which you are certainly entitled to.
Rich: I will try to find the Pew stats later tonight and hopefully unearth them by tomorrow. I wrote a note. If you can't find them, I doubt whether I'll succeed, but I have two places to look for help. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 06:48:07 PM
Rich: I can't agree with the major networks being in the middle. Pew Research (hardly conservative, actually pretty fair) does a rundown of the number of news stories pro-Trump versus anti-Trump and the number is in the neighborhood of 90 percent anti and less than 10 percent pro. The only difference between them and CNN and MSNBC is that the network channels don't have "opinion" shows which are merely advertisements for the respective political parties. During the Obama administration the comparison between pro- and anti-Obama was far, far different. Trump is being bashed by the networks in a somewhat different manner, but "bashed" nonetheless. And he still managed to win the Electoral College. I believe that is an achievement unparalleled in the history of Presidential elections. The closest things came on the other side of the ledger was the "fake news" that Dewey defeated Hoover, and that was just one incident. Bob
Bob
When he does something good they WILL comment on it, when he does something stupid they will also comment on it.
A La 10% good=90% bad.
Arithmetic is simple when you understand the math. :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 06:51:38 PM
Rich: IMO it takes a lot of chutzpah to put that video up.
For the better part of THREE YEARS IN A ROW all of the other TV outlets told us Trump colluded with Russia and Adam Schiff claimed to have"direct" evidence of collusion.
In other words, nearly every night, they took a premature "victory lap" and all of those laps turned out to be "fake news" and utterly wrong. And they never apologized to their viewers. Just moved on to the next lie.
Bob
Didn't the Mueller probe basically say there was collusion with Russia? Sorry but that is what I came away with, no matter how much he denies it.
AND, obviously, I have no proof, but at the time, I would have bet my bottom dollar that the Russians interfered with some of the votes in PA. The vote was so close and all they had to do was make a 'few changes' in some remote polling place to swing the state to Trump. And don't say it couldn't have happened? It could have and IMVHO it did. yes, I cannot prove it, but you also can't say positively it didn't go down that way.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/jimmy-carter-trump-didnt-win-2016-election-russians-interfered
Jimmy Carter says investigation would show Trump didn't win 2016 election: He's in office 'because Russians interfered'
This isn't where I got my own opinion, but I am not the only one who thought this way.
Quote from: LennG on July 17, 2020, 07:12:21 PM
Didn't the Mueller probe basically say there was collusion with Russia? Sorry but that is what I came away with, no matter how much he denies it.
AND, obviously, I have no proof, but at the time, I would have bet my bottom dollar that the Russians interfered with some of the votes in PA. The vote was so close and all they had to do was make a 'few changes' in some remote polling place to swing the state to Trump. And don't say it couldn't have happened? It could have and IMVHO it did. yes, I cannot prove it, but you also can't say positively it didn't go down that way.
I agree Lenn, I saw it as collusion as well. Trump called it a hoax so his cult followed orders and saw it that way as well.
Trump says he won't issue national mask mandate
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-says-he-wont-issue-national-mask-mandate/ar-BB16SGBt?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout
""I don't agree with the statement that if everyone wore a mask, everything disappears," Trump said, referring to Wallace's mention of the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) saying that the country could get the virus under control in four to six weeks if everyone wore a mask.
"Dr. [Anthony] Fauci said don't wear a mask, our surgeon general - terrific guy - said don't wear a mask. Everybody was saying don't wear a mask, all of a sudden everybody's got to wear a mask," Trump continued. "And as you know, masks cause problems too.
You know, a long time ago they thought the world was flat until it was proven not to be. You can't live in the past and just continue to say things that have bee n proven wrong. Is this the best he can do? At the time, that is what scientists believe, now that has proven wrong, but this guy continues his one line circus. Instead of complimenting Fauci and the others for making progress on an unknown, he dismissed them as being wrong, wrong, wrong when clearly they have learned and are now correct, at least the present time frame. In 6 months they may be wrong again, but they have open minds and continue to learn while others pine the time away living in some twilight zone where they will wake up and it will all be a dream.
Quote from: LennG on July 17, 2020, 07:07:32 PM
Bob
When he does something good they WILL comment on it, when he does something stupid they will also comment on it.
A La 10% good=90% bad.
Arithmetic is simple when you understand the math. :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:
Lenn: Bad time for a joke, which also doubles as a poor excuse to explain such outright bias. 90/10 (it's actually much worse... I was being lenient). If they did that to Obama you would have crapped your pants.
Further, the media fawned all over Obama's wife for eight years. With Trump's wife, they've pissed on her every opportunity they got. Or did she ALSO deserve to be punished in this manner?
It's about time you admit the media has been inordinately unfair. Today, for example, it is reported the New York Times published a story they have yet to withdraw which contains EIGHT OR NINE clear errors.
Bet you didn't hear that on CBS, NBC, ABC, PBS, CNN or MSNBC or read it in the Times or WaPost. You're in a "media bubble." Like the stock market bubbles, people IN the bubble are always unaware of it.
https://justthenews.com/accountability/russia-and-ukraine-scandals/just-released-trump-russia-documents-show-anti-trump
Bob
Quote from: LennG on July 17, 2020, 07:12:21 PM
Didn't the Mueller probe basically say there was collusion with Russia? Sorry but that is what I came away with, no matter how much he denies it.
AND, obviously, I have no proof, but at the time, I would have bet my bottom dollar that the Russians interfered with some of the votes in PA. The vote was so close and all they had to do was make a 'few changes' in some remote polling place to swing the state to Trump. And don't say it couldn't have happened? It could have and IMVHO it did. yes, I cannot prove it, but you also can't say positively it didn't go down that way.
Lenn: That's because you live in a "media bubble." The media that surrounds you only reports ONE SIDE of the news. Leave your cocoon once in a while and listen to the other side. Bob
Quote from: LennG on July 17, 2020, 07:12:21 PM
Didn't the Mueller probe basically say there was collusion with Russia? Sorry but that is what I came away with, no matter how much he denies it.
AND, obviously, I have no proof, but at the time, I would have bet my bottom dollar that the Russians interfered with some of the votes in PA. The vote was so close and all they had to do was make a 'few changes' in some remote polling place to swing the state to Trump. And don't say it couldn't have happened? It could have and IMVHO it did. yes, I cannot prove it, but you also can't say positively it didn't go down that way.
Lenn: I would bet MY bottom dollar Obama was born in Kenya. That's what you sound like to me. Bob
Quote from: LennG on July 17, 2020, 07:14:16 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/jimmy-carter-trump-didnt-win-2016-election-russians-interfered
Jimmy Carter says investigation would show Trump didn't win 2016 election: He's in office 'because Russians interfered'
This isn't where I got my own opinion, but I am not the only one who thought this way.
Lenn: That article was published June 28, 2019. The Mueller report became public AFTER Carter's interview. Carter's statement was a mere guess or prognostication. He guessed wrong. Bob
Scientists identify six different types of coronavirus with increasing severity levels
https://news.yahoo.com/scientists-identify-six-different-types-185531392.html
"Six distinct types of coronavirus have been identified by scientists in a breakthrough that promises to save lives by flagging the highest-risk patients."
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 10:49:14 PM
Lenn: That's because you live in a "media bubble." The media that surrounds you only reports ONE SIDE of the news. Leave your cocoon once in a while and listen to the other side. Bob
Bob
call it what you want, I live in in the NY metro area and I get my news from several sources, probably mostly Liberal, but several conservative sources also, so I would classify myself as well rounded, regardless of what you may think. Myself, I have several fairly conservative views on certain things as well. I have said many times I seek what interests me and what the truth really is.
One thing I know for a certainty, and this is not Liberal Len speaking, is that Trump is, without a doubt the worst President that ever inhabited the WH. We have never seen such a liar about everything. We have never seen anyone deal with major problems like him and screw them all up.
To be honest, I didn't vote for Obama, I was never a huge fan but he was a respectable President, didn't embarrass himself and his country everywhere he went and he tried to do good for our entire country. Trump, on the other hand, is just an embarrassment period.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 17, 2020, 11:45:46 PM
Lenn: That article was published June 28, 2019. The Mueller report became public AFTER Carter's interview. Carter's statement was a mere guess or prognostication. He guessed wrong. Bob
What I quoted was NOT in any reference to the Mueller probe. I was a statement and some thoughts from someone, who used to be 'in the know' and shares some of the exact same thoughts as I do. Jimmy Carter may never be remembered as a 'good' President, but he was still part of the environment in Washington and knows a lot of what we simply don't.
Quote from: philo43 on July 18, 2020, 11:49:55 AM
Scientists identify six different types of coronavirus with increasing severity levels
https://news.yahoo.com/scientists-identify-six-different-types-185531392.html
"Six distinct types of coronavirus have been identified by scientists in a breakthrough that promises to save lives by flagging the highest-risk patients."
Interesting read, Philo, thank you. I am less the comfortable for the wording "different types of Coronavirus" as a more accurate description would be "different types of Coronavirus infections" as the study doesn't lay claim that these are different Covid viruses. As with any medical/scientific study, this one comes with the "prepublish" disclaimer that means reader beware it's not peer reviewed. Still, I saw nothing in the study that seems off or out of place. Although I think those that conducted the study may be overselling the benefits a bit.
I would also recommend this article as it goes into greater detail
https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/covid-clusters
I appreciate the reality deniers will say "oh this is the NYTs so don't believe a word they say" for the rest of you this is a long and outstanding article that gives us a detailed inside look at the Trump's and the White House's response to this deadly virus. You may have to sign up for a FREE account to read it
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-response-failure-leadership.html?auth=login-email&login=email
This is somewhat disturbing news
Israeli doctor reinfected with coronavirus 3 months after recovering
This is the second case at Sheba Medical Center in which a patient recovered from the virus and was subsequently reinfected.
https://www.jpost.com/health-science/israeli-doctor-reinfected-with-coronavirus-3-months-after-recovering-635550
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 19, 2020, 04:22:05 PM
This is somewhat disturbing news
Israeli doctor reinfected with coronavirus 3 months after recovering
This is the second case at Sheba Medical Center in which a patient recovered from the virus and was subsequently reinfected.
https://www.jpost.com/health-science/israeli-doctor-reinfected-with-coronavirus-3-months-after-recovering-635550
I do not have a link, but I did read somewhere, the other day, that certain doctors felt that the antibodies that one might get after having the Virus, dissipate after a certain period of time, or just get weaker with time.
I'll look for the link, but that fits perfectly into what you just posted.
try this
COVID-19 Antibodies May Fade Quickly. What this Means for Herd Immunity
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/covid-19-antibodies-may-fade-quickly-what-this-means-for-herd-immunity
There is just so much the doctors and scientists just don't know and are still learning on the fly.
I just read this and was amazed at how accurate this was. I have a feeling it will get trashed as does everything that doesn't fit into many agendas, but please, if you have a few minutes, read the entire thing.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health-news/the-crisis-that-shocked-the-world-americas-response-to-the-coronavirus/ar-BB16WaBS?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout
It does call out the Trump administration for not acting early enough and then for trying to get states to reopen early, but I also found very telling was the reports on how unprepared this country was for anything like this. Be it the Trump administration, that cut funding for things like this, or maybe even the Obama administration for also not getting us prepared for anything like this. Whatever the reason we weren't ready when we should have been.
You just can't go on denying that the virus wasn't thought of as 'that' bad early on so too many people ignored it. I also found telling and I think this wasn't pounded enough, people from parts of the country, where there wasn't any virus cases, said, "OK, we'll try staying in for a while", but after a time frame, still nothing changed, they started going about their regular routines. This is where the President and his administration let us down by not having a National policy about the virus and then kicking it back to the Governors. That's OK for each state, but when one state says do this and then another says you don't have to do that, do this instead, this is where all the trouble starts. Like it says, Ohioans looked at other states going out and partying and said, why not us also. Then the infections start and finger-pointing starts.
I don't care who agrees with me or not, the country needed a leader for the entire country and Trump let this country down. This woman MIGHT be alive today if we had followed the lead of other countries, made it mandatory to do certain things, followed through on these things, and waited. Sure it would have been painful, but we would not be where we are today.
You know, maybe what bothers me the most is that people STILL believe that this is a hoax, nothing more than the flu and we need to forget about it and go about our regular business. Sorry, but this comes from the top, the President needed to rally America, make everyone feel safe and set a policy to defeat this virus. But, to this day, he still hasn't acted. We still have no national policy like so many other countries do, we are polarized between red and blue and each refusing to give an inch.
Does anyone think this would have happened under Roosevelt's tenure?
I can attest to this part being completely and utterly true
QuoteEven before the pandemic hit, local public health agencies had been decimated by years of staffing and budget cuts.
They had lost almost a quarter of their overall workforce since 2008
We lead the world in testing. It is no surprise that we lead the world in DISCOVERED cases of the virus.
No one knows how many cases other countries really have.
Heck, even here, no one knows.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 19, 2020, 09:58:22 PM
We lead the world in testing. It is no surprise that we lead the world in DISCOVERED cases of the virus.
No one knows how many cases other countries really have.
Heck, even here, no one knows.
Bob
Thank you for sharing Donald Trump's talking points. Of course like most of Trump's talking points, it has an element of truth while being overall false. The US is 23rd in tests per million population.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Although, you might want to share Wallaces reply that testing is up only 39% while cases are up 137%. So while there is an element of truth in the Trump's talking point overall it's deceptive
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 19, 2020, 09:58:22 PM
We lead the world in testing. It is no surprise that we lead the world in DISCOVERED cases of the virus.
No one knows how many cases other countries really have.
Heck, even here, no one knows.
Bob
Wow! I really don't know what to say Bob. I'm guessing you watched the Wallace interview to get this idea in your head? 800 dead yesterday in the US. After so many months fighting the virus that number is really high. If only we didn't report our deaths then there wouldn't be anything to worry about and we could go on living our lives :surrender: We have a serious health emergency in our country and it has nothing to do what other countries are doing.
Quote from: umassgrad on July 20, 2020, 07:39:26 AM
Wow! I really don't know what to say Bob. I'm guessing you watched the Wallace interview to get this idea in your head? 800 dead yesterday in the US. After so many months fighting the virus that number is really high. If only we didn't report our deaths then there wouldn't be anything to worry about and we could go on living our lives :surrender: We have a serious health emergency in our country and it has nothing to do what other countries are doing.
If we as a nation were united in fighting the disease instead of roughly a third trying to diminish the severity of the disease and the problems it is calling, I would venture to say we would be much better off like most of the other nations in the world who have done a superior job dealing with this deadly virus.
A unified message would have gone a long way in keeping people home to ride this out. Instead we got the no mask wearing yahoo that suggested it would all be over in a couple of weeks. Then it was Easter or when it got warm out. Then it was ingest bleach or try experimental drugs. Before you know it we have heavily armed citizens storming their capitals demanding we open. If only we had a leader that would have unified the country so our numbers would have been down enough to reopen properly.
With our current death rates, it's like the US is having a 9/11 type disaster every two to three days
It's still early and it's possible this doesn't amount to anything, but here is some good news about the virus. A treatment that may help reduce the severity. Not peer-reviewed yet, so take what you hear with a grain of salt, but this will be welcome news if it pans out.
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53467022
John Oliver does an outstanding job breaking down the conspiracy theories and Covid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b_eHBZLM6U
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 20, 2020, 08:46:23 AM
John Oliver does an outstanding job breaking down the conspiracy theories and Covid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b_eHBZLM6U
Watched last night but way too long for those that need to hear it.
Quote from: umassgrad on July 20, 2020, 08:58:41 AM
Watched last night but way too long for those that need to hear it.
That can be said of so many of the topics John Oliver breaks down. He spends 20 minutes talking about a wide variety of topics (some are often obscure and not frequently discussed). He does this for a nation with the attention span of a gerbil and who collectively feel if you can't sum it up in a couple of sentences it's not worth listening two.
Quote from: umassgrad on July 20, 2020, 07:39:26 AM
Wow! I really don't know what to say Bob. I'm guessing you watched the Wallace interview to get this idea in your head? 800 dead yesterday in the US. After so many months fighting the virus that number is really high. If only we didn't report our deaths then there wouldn't be anything to worry about and we could go on living our lives :surrender: We have a serious health emergency in our country and it has nothing to do what other countries are doing.
umass: I did not see the Wallace interview. Generally, I don't watch FOX News except to skim through DVR's of Carlson, Hannity and Ingraham to see which topics are discussed. If I see someone I know appearing as a guest, I might stop and listen. I follow the same procedure for the 8PM to 11PM time slots on CNN and MSNBC. All of those shows are mostly commercials combined with sheer repetition of each other and of the stuff they said on the previous night. It's like coming to this site and reading the posts of some people (specifically not including you, uconn, T200 and Ron, all of whom make your points, respond to inquiries without seeking to change the subject, and do so with a minimum of needless repetition, and which I greatly appreciate).
As for reporting of covid stats, yes, the number of deaths is high.....but the death rate is not. We have a huge population and conduct a large number of tests. This is a pandemic. That means it's everywhere. People are going to get sick and some are going to die. But the breathless media reporting of deaths without explaining the correct context is designed to create and maintain a state of undue panic (to boost their ratings). Stoking fear is reprehensible (and from some of the posts on this site, I see it's working).
The God's honest truth is ..... we will all get the virus at least once UNLESS a 100 percent effective "true" vaccine (like the polio vaccine) is found. The chances of finding a true vaccine are slim, but not yet ruled out. The measures already taken by Federal, state and local governments (to first shut down, then get hospitals, doctors and equipment organized, then open up slowly while re-closing down hot spots if necessary) is a logical and appropriate response. That's all we can do. Hiding in our houses for several years is just not an option.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 20, 2020, 10:09:59 AM
umass: I did not see the Wallace interview. Generally, I don't watch FOX News except to skim through DVR's of Carlson, Hannity and Ingraham to see which topics are discussed. If I see someone I know appearing as a guest, I might stop and listen. I follow the same procedure for the 8PM to 11PM time slots on CNN and MSNBC. All of those shows are mostly commercials combined with sheer repetition of each other and of the stuff they said on the previous night. It's like coming to this site and reading the posts of some people (specifically not including you, uconn, T200 and Ron, all of whom make your points, respond to inquiries without seeking to change the subject, and do so with a minimum of needless repetition, and which I greatly appreciate).
As for reporting of covid stats, yes, the number of deaths is high.....but the death rate is not. We have a huge population and conduct a large number of tests. This is a pandemic. That means it's everywhere. People are going to get sick and some are going to die. But the breathless media reporting of deaths without explaining the correct context is designed to create and maintain a state of undue panic (to boost their ratings). Stoking fear is reprehensible (and from some of the posts on this site, I see it's working).
The God's honest truth is ..... we will all get the virus at least once UNLESS a 100 percent effective "true" vaccine (like the polio vaccine) is found. The chances of finding a true vaccine are slim, but not yet ruled out. The measures already taken by Federal, state and local governments (to first shut down, then get hospitals, doctors and equipment organized, then open up slowly while re-closing down hot spots if necessary) is a logical and appropriate response. That's all we can do. Hiding in our houses for several years is just not an option.
Bob
Your passive aggressive digs were duly noted Bob. It seems the more I criticize your beloved Donald Trump the angrier and nastier you become. Is there a way I could criticize Donald Trump that won't make you so angry that you will violate the rules of civility? I appreciate that you are just copying the style of the man you support unconditionally, who you will never criticize or admit he made a mistake, but do you think that style is appropriate for our forum that is built on respect?
Here is a very good article on the progress being made toward a vaccine
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53469839
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 20, 2020, 10:09:59 AM
umass: I did not see the Wallace interview. Generally, I don't watch FOX News except to skim through DVR's of Carlson, Hannity and Ingraham to see which topics are discussed. If I see someone I know appearing as a guest, I might stop and listen. I follow the same procedure for the 8PM to 11PM time slots on CNN and MSNBC. All of those shows are mostly commercials combined with sheer repetition of each other and of the stuff they said on the previous night. It's like coming to this site and reading the posts of some people (specifically not including you, uconn, T200 and Ron, all of whom make your points, respond to inquiries without seeking to change the subject, and do so with a minimum of needless repetition, and which I greatly appreciate).
As for reporting of covid stats, yes, the number of deaths is high.....but the death rate is not. We have a huge population and conduct a large number of tests. This is a pandemic. That means it's everywhere. People are going to get sick and some are going to die. But the breathless media reporting of deaths without explaining the correct context is designed to create and maintain a state of undue panic (to boost their ratings). Stoking fear is reprehensible (and from some of the posts on this site, I see it's working).
The God's honest truth is ..... we will all get the virus at least once UNLESS a 100 percent effective "true" vaccine (like the polio vaccine) is found. The chances of finding a true vaccine are slim, but not yet ruled out. The measures already taken by Federal, state and local governments (to first shut down, then get hospitals, doctors and equipment organized, then open up slowly while re-closing down hot spots if necessary) is a logical and appropriate response. That's all we can do. Hiding in our houses for several years is just not an option.
Bob
Fair points Bob and there is no doubt CNN and others over report on Covid. I've have one question in response to your last post. If everything you say is true, is 800 deaths in a day something we just accept as the new normal until we get a vaccine? What's the death rate for a really bad day during flu season.
Quote from: umassgrad on July 20, 2020, 10:46:43 AM
Fair points Bob and there is no doubt CNN and others over report on Covid. I've have one question in response to your last post. If everything you say is true, is 800 deaths in a day something we just accept as the new normal until we get a vaccine? What's the death rate for a really bad day during flu season.
umass: Absolutely not. One death per day is "too many." You're correct in the implication that a lot more people are going to die. Can you imagine the daily consternation and hand-wringing in every mayor's office, in every State House and in the White House over this? Elected officials are in a tough spot (but I don't feel sorry for them - they sought elective office). However, I do adamantly object to the daily criticism which is ever-present and constant. The general public is already scared beyond belief, and overdoing the criticism is not helping. Elected executives (i.e., Trump, all 50 Governors, mayors, county execs, etc.) are charged with the duty to do what's best for the group they govern. That includes issues beyond just the virus (unfortunately) and that is why I say they're all in a tough spot. Being a chief executive always means "striking a balance" and while the virus is super-important (obviously), other related and unrelated health issues, economic well-being, and many other issues must be weighed as well. All I can say is I'm glad I'm not in charge, and I'm rooting for each and every one of them to succeed. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 20, 2020, 11:10:47 AM
umass: Absolutely not. One death per day is "too many." You're correct in the implication that a lot more people are going to die. Can you imagine the daily consternation and hand-wringing in every mayor's office, in every State House and in the White House over this? Elected officials are in a tough spot (but I don't feel sorry for them - they sought elective office). However, I do adamantly object to the daily criticism which is ever-present and constant. The general public is already scared beyond belief, and overdoing the criticism is not helping. Elected executives (i.e., Trump, all 50 Governors, mayors, county execs, etc.) are charged with the duty to do what's best for the group they govern. That includes issues beyond just the virus (unfortunately) and that is why I say they're all in a tough spot. Being a chief executive always means "striking a balance" and while the virus is super-important (obviously), other related and unrelated health issues, economic well-being, and many other issues must be weighed as well. All I can say is I'm glad I'm not in charge, and I'm rooting for each and every one of them to succeed. Bob
QuoteHowever, I do adamantly object to the daily criticism which is ever-present and constant.
Unless that criticism is directed at the governors of NY and NJ for nursing homes, but who have done the best job fighting Covid (even Trump admitted NJ has done an excellent job)
QuoteThe general public is already scared beyond belief, and overdoing the criticism is not helping.
Is that why so many of them are saying it's a "hoax" and refusing to social distance or wear a mask?
Still, what I found interesting is that Bob's comments supports an assertion in an article I posted (in the History Buff thread)
QuoteOne of the hardened realities of the modern red-blue map is that scientists have assumed a place on the blue team in the minds of both sides. A Pew survey this spring confirmed it again. About three-quarters of Democrats, but only 43 percent of Republicans, agree that scientists should take an active role in science-policy debates. Three-fifths of Democrats, but only one-third of Republicans, believe scientific experts are usually better than others at making policy decisions about scientific issues. A pile of research has found that conservatives are more distrustful than liberals of scientific forms of knowledge and are prone to believe conspiracy theories about scientists. And liberals do dominate the academy and the world of scientific research, alienated by the growing strain of know-nothing-ism in the other party.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/07/republican-response-coronavirus.html
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 20, 2020, 11:10:47 AM
umass: Absolutely not. One death per day is "too many." You're correct in the implication that a lot more people are going to die. Can you imagine the daily consternation and hand-wringing in every mayor's office, in every State House and in the White House over this? Elected officials are in a tough spot (but I don't feel sorry for them - they sought elective office). However, I do adamantly object to the daily criticism which is ever-present and constant. The general public is already scared beyond belief, and overdoing the criticism is not helping. Elected executives (i.e., Trump, all 50 Governors, mayors, county execs, etc.) are charged with the duty to do what's best for the group they govern. That includes issues beyond just the virus (unfortunately) and that is why I say they're all in a tough spot. Being a chief executive always means "striking a balance" and while the virus is super-important (obviously), other related and unrelated health issues, economic well-being, and many other issues must be weighed as well. All I can say is I'm glad I'm not in charge, and I'm rooting for each and every one of them to succeed. Bob
Bob,
How do you feel Trump has done in striking a balance?
Quote from: T200 on July 20, 2020, 11:39:11 AM
Bob,
How do you feel Trump has done in striking a balance?
Tim: Acceptable. This is the same rating I give to all other elected chief executives (Governors, county commissioners, mayors, etc.) as of today. Eventually, we can and will look back on their efforts and learn from the errors and find the "best" approach to use in the next pandemic, but I think it's utterly unfair to engage in daily, repetitive, and sometimes purely partisan, criticism of any of them at this time. After all, we are still only in THE MIDDLE of this progression of the plague that has been visited upon us. The good news is that we have 50 different state approaches to study as well as the numerous local governments. The TRUE ERROR would be failure to learn a lot about how to respond in the future.
As for Trump (and this is a just repetition of some of my prior posts) he did what he is supposed to do. He gave heavy weight to the Federal health agencies, who recommended closing most of the economy down, so he did so and for a while stood firmly behind them. Then, after waiting until he thought the situation with the economy prevented any further waiting, he left it to the individual Governors to each do what they thought best for their states, but continued to present the views of the Federal health officials at his press conferences, even if they were not in total agreement with his views. This enabled the American people to see the whole picture and consider the differences, as well as the areas in which there was total agreement.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 20, 2020, 12:06:18 PM
Tim: Acceptable. This is the same rating I give to all other elected chief executives (Governors, county commissioners, mayors, etc.) as of today. Eventually, we can and will look back on their efforts and learn from the errors and find the "best" approach to use in the next pandemic, but I think it's utterly unfair to engage in daily, repetitive, and sometimes purely partisan, criticism of any of them at this time. After all, we are still only in THE MIDDLE of this progression of the plague that has been visited upon us. The good news is that we have 50 different state approaches to study as well as the numerous local governments. The TRUE ERROR would be failure to learn a lot about how to respond in the future.
As for Trump (and this is a just repetition of some of my prior posts) he did what he is supposed to do. He gave heavy weight to the Federal health agencies, who recommended closing most of the economy down, so he did so and for a while stood firmly behind them. Then, after waiting until he thought the situation with the economy prevented any further waiting, he left it to the individual Governors to each do what they thought best for their states, but continued to present the views of the Federal health officials at his press conferences, even if they were not in total agreement with his views. This enabled the American people to see the whole picture and consider the differences, as well as the areas in which there was total agreement.
Bob
Fair enough.
We've been dealing with this virus and the subsequent economic fallout and racial tension since March. Looking back at the game tape, what feedback and recommendations would you give Trump?
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 20, 2020, 12:06:18 PM
Tim: Acceptable. This is the same rating I give to all other elected chief executives (Governors, county commissioners, mayors, etc.) as of today. Eventually, we can and will look back on their efforts and learn from the errors and find the "best" approach to use in the next pandemic, but I think it's utterly unfair to engage in daily, repetitive, and sometimes purely partisan, criticism of any of them at this time. After all, we are still only in THE MIDDLE of this progression of the plague that has been visited upon us. The good news is that we have 50 different state approaches to study as well as the numerous local governments. The TRUE ERROR would be failure to learn a lot about how to respond in the future.
As for Trump (and this is a just repetition of some of my prior posts) he did what he is supposed to do. He gave heavy weight to the Federal health agencies, who recommended closing most of the economy down, so he did so and for a while stood firmly behind them. Then, after waiting until he thought the situation with the economy prevented any further waiting, he left it to the individual Governors to each do what they thought best for their states, but continued to present the views of the Federal health officials at his press conferences, even if they were not in total agreement with his views. This enabled the American people to see the whole picture and consider the differences, as well as the areas in which there was total agreement.
Bob
I bolded the part where I see the fatal flaw in Bob's position. When you are dealing with a short term disaster, days or even a week or two, there is little time to look back assess mistakes and make corrections. In those cases it's usually best (or at least easiest) to wait for an lessons learned in an after action report.
However, when you are dealing with a crisis that spans months not days, you need to be able to look back learn lessons and adapt moving forward. You can literally kill people if you needlessly make the same mistake more than once and that is what will happen if you are unwilling (often motivated by partisan support of Trump and his same party governors) assess and criticize until the crisis is over. There needs to be a continual hard critical assessment of performances and choices and failings (as well as successes) and they need to be incorporated in decisions moving forward. That is what we need to do if you want to make the best decisions moving forward. In my opinion the worst possible thing you could do is toss all the leaders into a pot and say "they all did their best" and have zero accountability and zero adapting and learning.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 20, 2020, 12:26:05 PM
I bolded the part where I see the fatal flaw in Bob's position. When you are dealing with a short term disaster, days or even a week or two, there is little time to look back assess mistakes and make corrections. In those cases it's usually best (or at least easiest) to wait for an lessons learned in an after action report.
However, when you are dealing with a crisis that spans months not days, you need to be able to look back learn lessons and adapt moving forward. You can literally kill people if you needlessly make the same mistake more than once and that is what will happen if you are unwilling (often motivated by partisan support of Trump and his same party governors) assess and criticize until the crisis is over. There needs to be a continual hard critical assessment of performances and choices and failings (as well as successes) and they need to be incorporated in decisions moving forward. That is what we need to do if you want to make the best decisions moving forward. In my opinion the worst possible thing you could do is toss all the leaders into a pot and say "they all did their best" and have zero accountability and zero adapting and learning.
Rich: You have a point, but I'm not advocating closing our eyes as we pass through this tunnel. Constant adjustments in the science do occur (sometimes daily), so there's no reason not to make "course corrections" as soon as we determine that they are necessary. However, I don't think it dispels my view that it's bad to engage in daily, persistent, and repetitive criticism of the response to a long-term pandemic. I can't see how it helps us in any manner. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 20, 2020, 01:22:12 PM
Rich: You have a point, but I'm not advocating closing our eyes as we pass through this tunnel. Constant adjustments in the science do occur (sometimes daily), so there's no reason not to make "course corrections" as soon as we determine that they are necessary. However, I don't think it dispels my view that it's bad to engage in daily, persistent, and repetitive criticism of the response to a long-term pandemic. I can't see how it helps us in any manner. Bob
With an election coming up in November, do you think it's fair to look at Trump's performance in a little more critical eye than "well, I am positive he did the best he could and everything in the best interest of the nation and I won't criticize him"? It seems to me you go out of your way to shield Trump's Covid performance despite the nation having done poorly by every metric I could think of. Maybe people wouldn't feel the need to repeat if you didn't refuse to acknowledge that there are things that Trump should be justifiably criticized for. To date you have not said one negative thing about his performance (while on at least two occasions criticizing the Democratic Governor of NJ and NY over nursing homes).
Serious question, is there anything Trump could say or do that would elicit a negative comment from you about him? Is there anything that Trump has done throughout this Covid crisis, which you would say was a mistake or at least not the best choice? You have criticized me for "changing the subject" but Bob, I have noticed you tend to ignore a lot of questions. If you are going to discuss a topic it only seems like common courtesy to at least answer questions and not just pretend they were never asked. In the slight hope that you might answer, do you think that Florida, Texass, Arizona, and California made a mistake in rushing to open up? I mean you frequently talk about "Trump smartly switching to a state based decision approach" (even though diseases have a bad habit of not respecting state borders). Do you appreciate that one of the reasons he did that was to bypass the guidance document that his people produced and he named after himself?
I read your assessment of how you feel Trump handled the virus. If I can take it one step further. In the early stages, you said he listened to his medical people. Fine. as he should. But we all know now, more than we knew before about the virus, what we can and cannot do. The medical people have adjusted to this new knowledge, yet it doesn't seem Trump has. he keeps referring to the past where he claims they were wrong. In today's light, they probably were wrong on many things, and, as I have said, adjusted their recommendations and treatments. yet, now Trump basically dismisses them as being wrong, yet who is he getting this advice from now?. I fully understand he feels he knows better than everyone else about everything, but is he using just instinct now? We all know, with science, things evolve and science has to be adjusted. Yet Trump seems not to care about that right now. He harps on what was wrong in the beginning, yet fails to embrace the new facts.
When we put on ANY news station, it is a fact more and more people are testing positive, and it seems as if most of these states are also refusing to follow the same recommendations that the doctors have been making and they are stumbling, yet, like Trump, they refuse to believe their eyes and ears from doctors trying to help them. Why are they not embracing the new guidelines and same for Trump? Why does he insist that he is right and everyone else is wrong?
You just cannot keep living on past wrongs when science has shown that there are better ways now.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 20, 2020, 01:40:52 PM
With an election coming up in November, do you think it's fair to look at Trump's performance in a little more critical eye than "well, I am positive he did the best he could and everything in the best interest of the nation and I won't criticize him"? It seems to me you go out of your way to shield Trump's Covid performance despite the nation having done poorly by every metric I could think of. Maybe people wouldn't feel the need to repeat if you didn't refuse to acknowledge that there are things that Trump should be justifiably criticized for. To date you have not said one negative thing about his performance (while on at least two occasions criticizing the Democratic Governor of NJ and NY over nursing homes).
Serious question, is there anything Trump could say or do that would elicit a negative comment from you about him? Is there anything that Trump has done throughout this Covid crisis, which you would say was a mistake or at least not the best choice? You have criticized me for "changing the subject" but Bob, I have noticed you tend to ignore a lot of questions. If you are going to discuss a topic it only seems like common courtesy to at least answer questions and not just pretend they were never asked. In the slight hope that you might answer, do you think that Florida, Texass, Arizona, and California made a mistake in rushing to open up? I mean you frequently talk about "Trump smartly switching to a state based decision approach" (even though diseases have a bad habit of not respecting state borders). Do you appreciate that one of the reasons he did that was to bypass the guidance document that his people produced and he named after himself?
Do whatever you see fit with your vote.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 20, 2020, 02:01:42 PM
Do whatever you see fit with your vote.
Why wouldn't you answer any of my questions? Is that how you want people to treat you?
Quote from: LennG on July 20, 2020, 01:47:24 PM
I read your assessment of how you feel Trump handled the virus. If I can take it one step further. In the early stages, you said he listened to his medical people. Fine. as he should. But we all know now, more than we knew before about the virus, what we can and cannot do. The medical people have adjusted to this new knowledge, yet it doesn't seem Trump has. he keeps referring to the past where he claims they were wrong. In today's light, they probably were wrong on many things, and, as I have said, adjusted their recommendations and treatments. yet, now Trump basically dismisses them as being wrong, yet who is he getting this advice from now?. I fully understand he feels he knows better than everyone else about everything, but is he using just instinct now? We all know, with science, things evolve and science has to be adjusted. Yet Trump seems not to care about that right now. He harps on what was wrong in the beginning, yet fails to embrace the new facts.
When we put on ANY news station, it is a fact more and more people are testing positive, and it seems as if most of these states are also refusing to follow the same recommendations that the doctors have been making and they are stumbling, yet, like Trump, they refuse to believe their eyes and ears from doctors trying to help them. Why are they not embracing the new guidelines and same for Trump? Why does he insist that he is right and everyone else is wrong?
You just cannot keep living on past wrongs when science has shown that there are better ways now.
Lenn: The answers to your four questions are I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, and I don't know. As for your opinions, I disagree. Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 20, 2020, 02:03:14 PM
Why wouldn't you answer any of my questions? Is that how you want people to treat you?
The answers to your questions are yes; yes; too soon to know; no; and I don't know. As for your opinions, I disagree. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 20, 2020, 02:08:17 PM
Lenn: The answers to your four questions are I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, and I don't know. As for your opinions, I disagree. Bob
But, as someone who is going to vote for the next leader of this country, shouldn't you know some of these answers? I know I would want to know the thinking of my candidate and not just follow blindly down some dark alley,w which is where Trump is steering this country and no one asks why, at least on the GOP side.
And, I believe the only opinion I gave was You just cannot keep living on past wrongs when science has shown that there are better ways now, and you say you can? WOW
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 20, 2020, 02:15:26 PM
The answers to your questions are yes; yes; too soon to know; no; and I don't know. As for your opinions, I disagree. Bob
Okay so you acknowledge it's fair to have a critical assessment of Trump's Covid performance, that's good and I agree
For your second yes, has Trump said or did something already that you feel was negative, and if so what? If he hasn't done anything bad yet, what would he need to do to elicit criticism from you?
To your "no" answer how do you reconcile Dr Fauci attributing the spikes some states are seeing to opening to fast?
To the don't know, did you read the excellent NYT's article I posted that gave you an inside look into the Trump's adminstration's response to Covid (as it provided the answer)?
Quote from: LennG on July 20, 2020, 02:28:15 PM
But, as someone who is going to vote for the next leader of this country, shouldn't you know some of these answers? I know I would want to know the thinking of my candidate and not just follow blindly down some dark alley,w which is where Trump is steering this country and no one asks why, at least on the GOP side.
And, I believe the only opinion I gave was You just cannot keep living on past wrongs when science has shown that there are better ways now, and you say you can? WOW
Lenn: I don't think so. I agree that there was only a single opinion in your post. As for your conclusion about my answer, I disagree because the single opinion contains an assumption with which I disagree. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 20, 2020, 02:52:02 PM
Lenn: I don't think so. I agree that there was only a single opinion in your post. As for your conclusion about my answer, I disagree because the single opinion contains an assumption with which I disagree. Bob
Can you explain why you disagree and with what.
You answered my questions with I don't know and that is fine if you don't. But, as I asked, shouldn't you know if you plan on voting for this man?
Quote from: LennG on July 20, 2020, 02:59:30 PM
Can you explain why you disagree and with what.
You answered my questions with I don't know and that is fine if you don't. But, as I asked, shouldn't you know if you plan on voting for this man?
Lenn: Your opinion is that "You just cannot keep living on past wrongs when science has shown that there are better ways now." The assumption with which I disagree is that ONLY science is a consideration in making a decision. I I disagree with that assumption. There are other factors too numerous to list, but the list include other scientific matters not specifically and directly related to the coronavirus.
As for my answer to your question, I believe it was "I don't think so." With Joe Biden as the alternative, there is no contest in my book. If they replace Biden (which IMO is still possible) then I will reevaluate the whole thing. But currently, my answer is "I don't think so" because IMO I've already done all that I believe is necessary at this time in order to reach what I consider to be a logical conclusion.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 20, 2020, 03:19:20 PM
Lenn: Your opinion is that "You just cannot keep living on past wrongs when science has shown that there are better ways now." The assumption with which I disagree is that ONLY science is a consideration in making a decision. I I disagree with that assumption. There are other factors too numerous to list, but the list include other scientific matters not specifically and directly related to the coronavirus.
As for my answer to your question, I believe it was "I don't think so." With Joe Biden as the alternative, there is no contest in my book. If they replace Biden (which IMO is still possible) then I will reevaluate the whole thing. But currently, my answer is "I don't think so" because IMO I've already done all that I believe is necessary at this time in order to reach what I consider to be a logical conclusion.
Bob
When is the last time you voted for a Democrat at the state or federal level? I know you have repeatedly claimed that Job Biden is senile (even though no proof exists to support this assertion), but it appears to me that you are not willing to extend the same benefits of doubt that you extend to Donald Trump
So Georgia's Governor Kemp is suing Atlanta's Mayor Lance-Bottoms for issuing a mandatory mask order in Atlanta against the governor's directive. The governor says that people should not be mandated to do the right thing. :-?? :what:
Quote from: T200 on July 20, 2020, 03:42:27 PM
So Georgia's Governor Kemp is suing Atlanta's Mayor Lance-Bottoms for issuing a mandatory mask order in Atlanta against the governor's directive. The governor says that people should not be mandated to do the right thing. :-?? :what:
This is a prime example of the sort of mistake I talk about. This governor's actions are literally costing people their lives. There is no, other compelling reason financial or otherwise, that even remotely justifies these deadly actions
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 20, 2020, 05:00:51 PM
This is a prime example of the sort of mistake I talk about. This governor's actions are literally costing people their lives
I agree but that's not a mistake. It's deliberate.
Quote from: T200 on July 20, 2020, 05:07:51 PM
I agree but that's not a mistake. It's deliberate.
and this is why I can't agree with any claims that the President and all the governors are doing the best they can for the American people
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 21, 2020, 08:30:44 AM
and this is why I can't agree with any claims that the President and all the governors are doing the best they can for the American people
I liken it to the battered wife syndrome. The husband abuses the wife, then apologizes and says he loves her and she still stays. He continues to do it and it's a vicious cycle that she can't get herself out of, despite those around her doing their best to help. Very difficult to get someone out of an abusive relationship.
For those who really want to learn about Covid, this free class is a great way to do so. It's designed for contact tracers, but you can watch until you have learned what you need.
https://www.coursera.org/learn/covid-19-contact-tracing?edocomorp=covid-19-contact-tracing
The more things change, the more they stay the same
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article244267462.html
What did people say about wearing masks in the 1918 pandemic? It sounds familiar
"A different pandemic swept across the world a century ago, killing about 60 million people.
Schools and businesses closed, and many cities required people to wear face masks to slow the spread of the devastating influenza outbreak of 1918. And back then, just like today, some people balked at the idea of the government telling them what to do."
"Some protested and openly defied local orders as World War I raged in Europe, J. Alexander Navarro, assistant director at the University of Michigan
Quote from: philo43 on July 22, 2020, 06:52:15 AM
The more things change, the more they stay the same
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article244267462.html
What did people say about wearing masks in the 1918 pandemic? It sounds familiar
"A different pandemic swept across the world a century ago, killing about 60 million people.
Schools and businesses closed, and many cities required people to wear face masks to slow the spread of the devastating influenza outbreak of 1918. And back then, just like today, some people balked at the idea of the government telling them what to do."
"Some protested and openly defied local orders as World War I raged in Europe, J. Alexander Navarro, assistant director at the University of Michigan
Stories relating to a study by Oxford (link below) raises an aspect of virology that I don't remember much talk about in the political arena. Since there is nothing political in it, I offer if for your consideration.
There is apparently a theory (now probably more than just a theory) that certain vaccines we already have and take may explain, for example, why some people display almost no symptoms although they have covid.
That is only one of the possible takeaways, if this study is correct, IMO.
Bob
https://reaction.life/we-may-already-have-herd-immunity-an-interview-with-professor-sunetra-gupta/
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 22, 2020, 07:35:40 AM
Yeah, self-centeredness and a sense of entitlement have plagued man since likely the dawn of time. In fairness, masks were less effective in 1918 than they are today. Today, we know it to be a scientific fact that masks save lives, but in 1918 that couldn't be said.
I've had the fortune and blessing to live in both Asia and Europe for a number of years. We don't fully realize how the world sees us until we are on the outside looking in.
https://www.today.com/money/niagara-falls-boats-show-stark-difference-between-social-distancing-us-t187466
Quote from: T200 on July 22, 2020, 05:34:47 PM
I've had the fortune and blessing to live in both Asia and Europe for a number of years. We don't fully realize how the world sees us until we are on the outside looking in.
https://www.today.com/money/niagara-falls-boats-show-stark-difference-between-social-distancing-us-t187466
T200- me as well, I spent 25 years teaching internationally with stops in Shanghai, Cairo, Delhi, Taipei and Casablanca. I just moved back to the US last year.
Quote from: umassgrad on July 22, 2020, 05:46:58 PM
T200- me as well, I spent 25 years teaching internationally with stops in Shanghai, Cairo, Delhi, Taipei and Casablanca. I just moved back to the US last year.
That's awesome! I really loved being overseas.
How did you feel being the American foreigner? For me and my family, being a part of the military, we still had some semblance of American society. Although our last stint in Germany, we lived out in town about 30 minutes from the base and soaked up the German culture and they embraced us as their own. But they definitely had lots of questions that left me a little more than embarrassed to realize how we were seen.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 22, 2020, 05:31:14 PM
Stories relating to a study by Oxford (link below) raises an aspect of virology that I don't remember much talk about in the political arena. Since there is nothing political in it, I offer if for your consideration.
There is apparently a theory (now probably more than just a theory) that certain vaccines we already have and take may explain, for example, why some people display almost no symptoms although they have covid.
That is only one of the possible takeaways, if this study is correct, IMO.
Bob
https://reaction.life/we-may-already-have-herd-immunity-an-interview-with-professor-sunetra-gupta/
Bob,
I had to Google the study
This is from the Finacial Times
QuoteHowever, the modelling by Oxford
For T200- living overseas: I loved every moment of being a foreigner but I never brought the American "greatest country in the world" attitude with me. I embraced the local culture and the locals embraced me and my family. I vacationed in Morocco as the guests of a Muslim family as they wanted to repay us for hosting their children at our home for Christmas. My children received daycare from a Berber women while in Morocco, a lovely Filippino while in Taipei, and the sweetest Chinese national while in Shanghai. None of them could speak English but they loved our children dearly. The most amazing Taiwanese family were there for the birth of our second child while in Taipei. No one in the hospital could speak English and as I was leaving the hospital to settle the bill the Taiwanese mother looked at me and said everything was all set and I should just go home to be with our baby girl. After 9/11 while our church mourned a group of local Domincans entered our church and surrounded the pews and sang Amazing Grace with us to show their support for us and our country. I will never forget that moment and so much more. I have many more stories of the love me and my family received while living overseas. It's for these reasons I'm bothered by Muslim bans, xxxx hole country comments and the building of walls to keep people out.
Quote from: umassgrad on July 22, 2020, 06:28:26 PM
For T200- living overseas: I loved every moment of being a foreigner but I never brought the American "greatest country in the world" attitude with me. I embraced the local culture and the locals embraced me and my family. I vacationed in Morocco as the guests of a Muslim family as they wanted to repay us for hosting their children at our home for Christmas. My children received daycare from a Berber women while in Morocco, a lovely Filippino while in Taipei, and the sweetest Chinese national while in Shanghai. None of them could speak English but they loved our children dearly. The most amazing Taiwanese family were there for the birth of our second child while in Taipei. No one in the hospital could speak English and as I was leaving the hospital to settle the bill the Taiwanese mother looked at me and said everything was all set and I should just go home to be with our baby girl. After 9/11 while our church mourned a group of local Domincans entered our church and surrounded the pews and sang Amazing Grace with us to show their support for us and our country. I will never forget that moment and so much more. I have many more stories of the love me and my family received while living overseas. It's for these reasons I'm bothered by Muslim bans, xxxx hole country comments and the building of walls to keep people out.
That's awesome! I love hearing stories like that. The world has so much offer and I feel tremendously blessed to have experienced some of the different cultures. Glad you have some fond memories to last a lifetime! :ok:
Quote from: umassgrad on July 22, 2020, 06:28:26 PM
For T200- living overseas: I loved every moment of being a foreigner but I never brought the American "greatest country in the world" attitude with me. I embraced the local culture and the locals embraced me and my family. I vacationed in Morocco as the guests of a Muslim family as they wanted to repay us for hosting their children at our home for Christmas. My children received daycare from a Berber women while in Morocco, a lovely Filippino while in Taipei, and the sweetest Chinese national while in Shanghai. None of them could speak English but they loved our children dearly. The most amazing Taiwanese family were there for the birth of our second child while in Taipei. No one in the hospital could speak English and as I was leaving the hospital to settle the bill the Taiwanese mother looked at me and said everything was all set and I should just go home to be with our baby girl. After 9/11 while our church mourned a group of local Domincans entered our church and surrounded the pews and sang Amazing Grace with us to show their support for us and our country. I will never forget that moment and so much more. I have many more stories of the love me and my family received while living overseas. It's for these reasons I'm bothered by Muslim bans, xxxx hole country comments and the building of walls to keep people out.
Thank you, for sharing, Karl
Great stories
Update from the Florida Fiasco
Numerous people are being popped as positive and they never took the test! Apparently they registered, got in line, but didnt want to wait the 3+ hours. . . so if they were #15, the person who is number 16 is now #15 and the wrong person got the wrong results.
There are also 3 counties in the central portion of the state that were reporting anywhere from 88%, 96% and 100% (alachua county) positive results. Not cool.
The governor is opening an investigation into it and the initial changes over the last month or two went from about 90,000 positive to 11,000 positive. . . .a 79,000 person swing!
They are also investigating the types of deaths because (I think alachua again) had a motorcycle fatality that was reported as covid. There is (at this time, and publicly released from my "inside sources", that the deceased had even been tested or if he had, what the results were. . . .
interesting, please share some links as this is not coming up in my news feed.
Quote from: Jim143 on July 22, 2020, 06:46:30 PM
Update from the Florida Fiasco
Numerous people are being popped as positive and they never took the test! Apparently they registered, got in line, but didnt want to wait the 3+ hours. . . so if they were #15, the person who is number 16 is now #15 and the wrong person got the wrong results.
There are also 3 counties in the central portion of the state that were reporting anywhere from 88%, 96% and 100% (alachua county) positive results. Not cool.
The governor is opening an investigation into it and the initial changes over the last month or two went from about 90,000 positive to 11,000 positive. . . .a 79,000 person swing!
They are also investigating the types of deaths because (I think alachua again) had a motorcycle fatality that was reported as covid. There is (at this time, and publicly released from my "inside sources", that the deceased had even been tested or if he had, what the results were. . . .
Jim,
I spent 3 months doing testing. Sounds like you guys have a lot to learn. We essentially had to make our own systems from scratch and while they weren't perfect, there was nearly no chance of results getting switched. You registered online, then when you came your information was all confirmed and you were given paper work and a test kit and when you got to the testing tent your information was double checked.
I have not gone through a testing process personally, so I don
Quote from: T200 on July 22, 2020, 05:34:47 PM
I've had the fortune and blessing to live in both Asia and Europe for a number of years. We don't fully realize how the world sees us until we are on the outside looking in.
https://www.today.com/money/niagara-falls-boats-show-stark-difference-between-social-distancing-us-t187466
Tim and Karl
I didn't have the time to spend as much time overseas as you guys. I was in Germany for 3 years and we have traveled around parts of Europe from our cruises.
One thing I learned very early was never to compare anything USA to what they have in their countries. My example, while in Germany, it was fairly easy to catch a shuttle to London and I did this quite a few times. In fact I was sort of dating a nice young lady there. She took me to a party,a nd many wanted to know things about the USA. Being from NY, I was saying, well Picadilly Circus reminds me of Times Square. That, to them was offensive. Since Picadilly Circus was there many more years before Times Square, I should have said that Times Square reminds me of Picadilly Circus. The way I worded it, made them feel everything USA was better than the similar things in London. I found that same attitude in Amersterdam also. So I learned very quickly, you want to make friends of locals, theirs is better,a t least while you are there.
Quote from: T200 on July 22, 2020, 05:51:57 PM
That's awesome! I really loved being overseas.
How did you feel being the American foreigner? For me and my family, being a part of the military, we still had some semblance of American society. Although our last stint in Germany, we lived out in town about 30 minutes from the base and soaked up the German culture and they embraced us as their own. But they definitely had lots of questions that left me a little more than embarrassed to realize how we were seen.
umass: Aha! You're a teacher. My dad was also (then he became principle, then superintendent). My sister still is, and guess what she teaches.... she teaches English to children in China (via Internet). Bob
Quote from: umassgrad on July 22, 2020, 06:55:49 PM
interesting, please share some links as this is not coming up in my news feed.
Here is he motorcycle accident
https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/fox-35-investigates-questions-raised-after-fatal-motorcycle-crash-listed-as-covid-19-death
"ORLANDO, Fla. - (UPDATE) On Saturday, Kent Donahue, from Dr. Pino's office, said the motorcyclist's death "was reviewed and he was taken off the list for COVID fatalities."
Two days after a FOX 35 investigation, health officials confirm that a motorcycle death that was initially counted among COVID-19 fatalities has been removed from the state's data. "
Quote from: philo43 on July 23, 2020, 05:54:14 AM
Here is he motorcycle accident
https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/fox-35-investigates-questions-raised-after-fatal-motorcycle-crash-listed-as-covid-19-death
"ORLANDO, Fla. - (UPDATE) On Saturday, Kent Donahue, from Dr. Pino's office, said the motorcyclist's death "was reviewed and he was taken off the list for COVID fatalities."
Two days after a FOX 35 investigation, health officials confirm that a motorcycle death that was initially counted among COVID-19 fatalities has been removed from the state's data. "
This pisses me off. People who refuse to isolate when they know they have Covid, are morally as bad as drunk drivers (maybe worse, since they make their decision sober). You have Covid you stay home, not go on joy rides on your motorcycle. You are deliberately endangering others by not staying home.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 23, 2020, 06:02:46 AM
This pisses me off. People who refuse to isolate when they know they have Covid, are morally as bad as drunk drivers (maybe worse, since they make their decision sober). You have Covid you stay home, not go on joy rides on your motorcycle. You are deliberately endangering others by not staying home.
What am I missing? I have read that article many times and there is no where mentioned that they were positive Covid. So, why should they isolate if they are not positive?
Quote from: Jim143 on July 23, 2020, 06:48:58 AM
What am I missing? I have read that article many times and there is no where mentioned that they were positive Covid. So, why should they isolate if they are not positive?
Read the older version of the story below
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 22, 2020, 10:09:54 PM
umass: Aha! You're a teacher. My dad was also (then he became principle, then superintendent). My sister still is, and guess what she teaches.... she teaches English to children in China (via Internet). Bob
Very cool, Bob! My utmost respect to the teachers in your family. One of those things you have to do to really appreciate it. Parents are finding that out now:)
Double thumbs up to your dad for making it to the top of the profession. Those admin jobs are not easy.
Quote from: umassgrad on July 23, 2020, 09:40:11 AM
Very cool, Bob! My utmost respect to the teachers in your family. One of those things you have to do to really appreciate it. Parents are finding that out now:)
Double thumbs up to your dad for making it to the top of the profession. Those admin jobs are not easy.
umass: .... and he didn't last long in the top job either, retiring shortly thereafter.
I thought he should avoid the "headaches" of that job, but like a mountain-climber close to the summit, he wanted to go the extra few steps to touch the flag at the top.
And he did his entire career while carrying around a chest full of schrapnel from WWII (the fragments were too small to remove all of them). He was a good man.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 23, 2020, 09:53:04 AM
umass: .... and he didn't last long in the top job either, retiring shortly thereafter.
I thought he should avoid the "headaches" of that job, but like a mountain-climber close to the summit, he wanted to go the extra few steps to touch the flag at the top.
And he did his entire career while carrying around a chest full of schrapnel from WWII (the fragments were too small to remove all of them). He was a good man.
Bob
Wow! He sounds like quite the guy. My dad has passed as well, a US Marine and Korean war veteran. He was not an educator, worked an office job in NYC. He gave me my love for our New York Giants and thank God he lived long enough to watch the 86 super bowl win!
I just heard that, using the mathematical formula scientists employ to decide if a disease is a "pandemic" covid-19 ceased to be a pandemic about six weeks ago.
I can't find the formula so I can't verify this statement, and I can't find an explanation of it either.
I'd sure like to see what factors are considered in the formula, and (therefore) how they reach the conclusion that a pandemic has ended.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 23, 2020, 03:12:44 PM
I just heard that, using the mathematical formula scientists employ to decide if a disease is a "pandemic" covid-19 ceased to be a pandemic about six weeks ago.
I can't find the formula so I can't verify this statement, and I can't find an explanation of it either.
I'd sure like to see what factors are considered in the formula, and (therefore) how they reach the conclusion that a pandemic has ended.
Bob
This post has been sitting for quite a while without a response from anyone. Or doesn't anyone know? That's fine. It wasn't posted as a challenge, but until further notice I believe the pandemic no longer exists. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 24, 2020, 09:28:10 AM
until further notice I believe the pandemic no longer exists. Bob
There is a great post (at least in my opinion) in our archies that discusses fact, opinion and belief
QuoteUnlike an opinion, a belief is a conviction based on cultural or personal faith, morality, or values. Statements such as "Capital punishment is legalized murder" are often called "opinions" because they express viewpoints, but they are not based on facts or other evidence. They cannot be disproved or even contested in a rational or logical manner. Since beliefs are inarguable, they cannot serve as the thesis of a formal argument. (Emotional appeals can, of course, be useful if you happen to know that your audience shares those beliefs.)
https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php/topic,4488.0.html
In my opinion, one of the most destructive aspects of Trump's rise to power has been the elevation of "belief" to the same level of importance as fact
Oh and for the record, here is the standard definition used by those of us in public health
QuoteOccasionally, the amount of disease in a community rises above the expected level. Epidemic refers to an increase, often sudden, in the number of cases of a disease above what is normally expected in that population in that area. Outbreak carries the same definition of epidemic, but is often used for a more limited geographic area. Cluster refers to an aggregation of cases grouped in place and time that are suspected to be greater than the number expected, even though the expected number may not be known. Pandemic refers to an epidemic that has spread over several countries or continents, usually affecting a large number of people.
https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dsepd/ss1978/lesson1/section11.html
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 24, 2020, 09:57:27 AM
There is a great post (at least in my opinion) in our archives that discusses fact, opinion and belief
Oh and for the record, here is the standard definition used by those of us in public health
Rich: When are "those of us in public health" going to reply to my post? Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 24, 2020, 10:19:03 AM
Rich: When are "those of us in public health" going to reply to my post? Bob
I just did :-??
I'm repeating this post because no one gave me an answer. I'm not saying anyone knows the answer.... I sure don't.
I heard that, using the mathematical formula scientists employ to decide if a disease is a "pandemic," the covid-19 crisis ceased to be a pandemic about six weeks ago.
I can't find the formula so I can't verify this statement, and I can't find an explanation of it either.
I'd like to see what factors are considered in the formula, and (therefore) how they reach the conclusion that a pandemic has ended.
Bob
I am not sure where you heard those claims but they are far afield of the truth
Michael Ryan, WHO director for health emergencies, said there is
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 25, 2020, 10:41:21 AM
I am not sure where you heard those claims but they are far afield of the truth
Michael Ryan, WHO director for health emergencies, said there is
Rich: After looking for the third time, I decided it is not too important. Even if the "pandemic" definition no longer applies to this virus, it would still be an epidemic (at least.... I think that is the next step "down").
Apparently the "formula" is how WHO (and others?) decide when it should take (or not take) certain actions, when to make certain announcements, etc. I think it's an administrative rather than medical measure.
I hope that is clear enough. In short, it doesn't tell us when we're "out of the woods" medically. On the other hand, moving from pandemic status to something lower, even for those purposes, is not a bad thing.
Bob
Don't hold your breath for a coronavirus vaccine. Here are the 7 biggest challenges we still need to overcome.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/don-t-hold-your-breath-for-a-coronavirus-vaccine-here-are-the-7-biggest-challenges-we-still-need-to-overcome/ar-BB17b96U?ocid=msedgdhp
I know we are all waiting for some good news on this front, but read this and it really might not be what we all are expecting.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 25, 2020, 11:01:09 AM
Rich: After looking for the third time, I decided it is not too important. Even if the "pandemic" definition no longer applies to this virus, it would still be an epidemic (at least.... I think that is the next step "down").
Apparently the "formula" is how WHO (and others?) decide when it should take (or not take) certain actions, when to make certain announcements, etc. I think it's an administrative rather than medical measure.
I hope that is clear enough. In short, it doesn't tell us when we're "out of the woods" medically. On the other hand, moving from pandemic status to something lower, even for those purposes, is not a bad thing.
Bob
Bob,
A pandemic is an epidemic that is occurring in multiple nations or continents
Here's a case made by a very-well established Yale epidemiologist for use of hydroxychloroquine in combination with certain other medications.
https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 25, 2020, 07:46:23 PM
Here's a case made by a very-well established Yale epidemiologist for use of hydroxychloroquine in combination with certain other medications.
https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535
Bob,
Good science/medicine is generally not found in opinion pieces in Newsweek.
I was less than comfortable with the misleading why this doctor presented his credentials. They sounded as impressive as hell when he gave them for his article. Only it "slipped his mind" that his specialty and expertise is not in infectious disease but rather cancer
Harvey A. Risch. A: I am primarily interested in the etiology of cancer as can be determined through epidemiological research. This has mostly involved work on cancers of the pancreas and ovary, though I have also done studies of lung, gastric, esophageal, and other cancers.
Bob, the way you go about this topic of always looking for claims that support your political agenda is not how we do things in science
For those interested in studies rather than the opinions of a cancer specialist
What is the Recovery trial and why are its findings thought to be so important?
Recovery, based at Oxford University, is the biggest randomised controlled trial of drugs against Covid-19 in the world, thanks in no small part to the NHS. Almost all acute hospitals across the whole of the UK
To counter the flood of right-wing posts on their forum and to offer up the valuable perspective of outsiders who don't have a stake in US politics, I thought this is worth posting and discussing
Our expert panel includes:
Dr. Anna Banerji, an infectious disease specialist at the University of Toronto
Dr. Lisa Barrett, an infectious disease specialist at Dalhousie University in Halifax
Dr. Zain Chagla, an infectious disease specialist at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ont.
Dr. Sumon Chakrabarti, an infectious disease specialist based in Mississauga, Ont.
Dr. Brian Conway, president and medical director of the Vancouver Infectious Diseases Centre
Dr. Ronald St. John, the first director-general of the Public Health Agency of Canada's Centre for Emergency Preparedness
Ashleigh Tuite, an epidemiology professor at the University of Toronto
(https://www.ctvnews.ca/polopoly_fs/1.5036125!/httpImage/image.png_gen/derivatives/landscape_960/image.png)
QuoteCommon criticisms of the American approach included the politicization of public health advice such as mask-wearing, and decisions to reopen businesses before virus activity had tampered down enough to make doing so safe.
The greatest scorn, though, was reserved for what many of the experts described as a clear lack of federal leadership. Unlike in Canada, where provincial and local authorities have generally followed the federal handbook, mixed messages have abounded.
"There's been conflicting messaging and communication and an overall anti-science feel to national response," Tuite said July 21 in an email.
Tuite actually gave the U.S. the highest grade of anyone we asked
Emirates to become first airline to offer global COVID-19 insurance
Passengers can claim up to 150,000 euros ($174,000) for medical expenses and quarantine costs of 100 euros ($116) per day for 14 days. Funeral costs and repatriation assistance may be covered as well.
https://thepointsguy.com/news/emirates-airline-global-covid-insurance/
Wonder if domestic carriers would dare follow suit?
Quote from: Ron in NJ on July 26, 2020, 11:29:09 AM
Emirates to become first airline to offer global COVID-19 insurance
Passengers can claim up to 150,000 euros ($174,000) for medical expenses and quarantine costs of 100 euros ($116) per day for 14 days. Funeral costs and repatriation assistance may be covered as well.
https://thepointsguy.com/news/emirates-airline-global-covid-insurance/
Wonder if domestic carriers would dare follow suit?
This is a wise business move on the part of Emirates, in my opinion. Flying is a risky proposition and this offer most likely doesn't cost that much (I assume they are paying an insurance carrier) and the increased business will hopefully (for them) cover the cost.
Starting to see plateaus in Arizona and Texas. The patterns on all the surge states are similar to what happened in New York and Michigan. But when those states got hit, there was no preparedness. Florida, Texas and Arizona didn't have to happen as badly as it did. They just didn't want to do the work. Florida, I believe will plateau next week and all those states will slowly begin to see declines in the next month.
Quote from: katkavage on July 27, 2020, 04:44:05 PM
Starting to see plateaus in Arizona and Texas. The patterns on all the surge states are similar to what happened in New York and Michigan. But when those states got hit, there was no preparedness. Florida, Texas and Arizona didn't have to happen as badly as it did. They just didn't want to do the work. Florida, I believe will plateau next week and all those states will slowly begin to see declines in the next month.
Kat,
When NY and NJ got hit, we didn't even have tests to ID the disease. Even worse there was no PPE (you couldn't even buy a surgical mask that didn't have one or two stars) on Amazon, there was no hand sanitizer, we knew so little about the disease then compared to what we know now, and the only treatment we had when we got hit was supportive care. Saying it didn't have to happen as it did in FL, TX, and AZ is an understatement.
I think a good comparison is upstate NY. Upstate NY never got hit like the city did and even when NY started opening up they never saw the spikes that those other states did. The other states should have been like upstate NY.
QuoteTwo new studies from Germany paint a sobering picture of the toll that Covid-19 takes on the heart, raising the specter of long-term damage after people recover, even if their illness was not severe enough to require hospitalization.
One study examined the cardiac MRIs of 100 people who had recovered from Covid-19 and compared them to heart images from 100 people who were similar but not infected with the virus. Their average age was 49 and two-thirds of the patients had recovered at home. More than two months later, infected patients were more likely to have troubling cardiac signs than people in the control group: 78 patients showed structural changes to their hearts, 76 had evidence of a biomarker signaling cardiac injury typically found after a heart attack, and 60 had signs of inflammation.
These were relatively young, healthy patients who fell ill in the spring, Valentina Puntmann, who led the MRI study, pointed out in an interview. Many of them had just returned from ski vacations. None of them thought they had anything wrong with their hearts.
Texans Are Now Dying Every Six Minutes From COVID-19
https://www.newsweek.com/texans-are-now-dying-every-six-minutes-covid-19-1521337
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 29, 2020, 10:41:25 AM
Texans Are Now Dying Every Six Minutes From COVID-19
https://www.newsweek.com/texans-are-now-dying-every-six-minutes-covid-19-1521337
If you saw how people down here have been behaving since Memorial Day, you wouldn't be surprised. My office was set to fully reopen on July 1 and is now indefinitely at 10%. They have had to send multiple emails about conduct and observing precautions in this time to people who are supposed to be professionals. We may be plateauing, but I don't know that we'll come down any time soon.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on July 29, 2020, 10:57:55 AM
If you saw how people down here have been behaving since Memorial Day, you wouldn't be surprised. My office was set to fully reopen on July 1 and is now indefinitely at 10%. They have had to send multiple emails about conduct and observing precautions in this time to people who are supposed to be professionals. We may be plateauing, but I don't know that we'll come down any time soon.
Texans as a group don't believe safety regulations apply to them. It wasn't an accident that the healthcare worker who caught Ebola worked in Texas
(https://i.imgur.com/Olxgg0h.jpg)
I wonder what these hydroxychloroquine supporters would say to their own doctor's if he/she said to NOT use it for COVID-19. :-??
Quote from: T200 on July 29, 2020, 12:05:58 PM
I wonder what these hydroxychloroquine supporters would say to their own doctor's if he/she said to NOT use it for COVID-19. :-??
The woman on the screen with Tucker Carlson is a doctor. She has been promoted by Trump (as well as FOX "news"
QuoteImmanuel, a pediatrician and a religious minister, has a history of making bizarre claims about medical topics and other issues. She has often claimed that gynecological problems like cysts and endometriosis are in fact caused by people having sex in their dreams with demons and witches.
She alleges alien DNA is currently used in medical treatments, and that scientists are cooking up a vaccine to prevent people from being religious. And, despite appearing in Washington, D.C. to lobby Congress on Monday, she has said that the government is run in part not by humans but by
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 29, 2020, 12:09:34 PM
The woman on the screen with Tucker Carlson is a doctor. She has been promoted by Trump (as well as FOX "news"
https://www.thedailybeast.com/stella-immanuel-trumps-new-covid-doctor-believes-in-alien-dna-demon-sperm-and-hydroxychloroquine
Yeah, they're a group of doctors pushing it. And by extension, since Trump is supporting it, odds are his supporters are too. Hence my statement.
Quote from: T200 on July 29, 2020, 12:15:58 PM
Yeah, they're a group of doctors pushing it. And by extension, since Trump is supporting it, odds are his supporters are too. Hence my statement.
Tim,
There are drugs that have actually been proven to work like steroids and Remdesivir. Other then some sort of desperate desire to prove Trump correct about something Covid related, I am at a loss for the continued promotion of this drug. The drug can cause heart damage so you can't even say "what's the harm?". I have seen other promising treatments in the pipeline as well, so I just don't understand the fixation.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 29, 2020, 12:22:12 PM
Tim,
There are drugs that have actually been proven to work like steroids and Remdesivir. Other then some sort of desperate desire to prove Trump correct about something Covid related, I am at a loss for the continued promotion of this drug. The drug can cause heart damage so you can't even say "what's the harm?". I have seen other promising treatments in the pipeline as well, so I just don't understand the fixation.
Rich: The only "desperation" is the desperation of the "Great Erasers" and "Cancel Culture" who are desperate to squash even the slightest disagreement among DOCTORS about the disease. I wonder why? Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 29, 2020, 12:22:12 PM
Tim,
There are drugs that have actually been proven to work like steroids and Remdesivir. Other then some sort of desperate desire to prove Trump correct about something Covid related, I am at a loss for the continued promotion of this drug. The drug can cause heart damage so you can't even say "what's the harm?". I have seen other promising treatments in the pipeline as well, so I just don't understand the fixation.
Maybe he thinks it's the most beautiful word in the history of words and he likes saying it.
Trump at bedtime:
DT: Melania, will you read me a story?
MT: Sure Donnie! Do you want to hear about hydroxychloroquine and the killer hoax virus?
DT: OH YES! That's my favorite! I love hy
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 29, 2020, 12:31:27 PM
Rich: The only "desperation" is the desperation of the "Great Erasers" and "Cancel Culture" who are desperate to squash even the slightest disagreement among DOCTORS about the disease. I wonder why? Bob
Bob,
I have read countless scientific, public health, and medical articles, journals, and papers. In all that reading I have not encountered the terms "Great Erasers" and "Cancel Culture". Can you explain to me the scientific, medical, or public health relevance of those terms?
Here is a great study published in the New England Journal of Medicine just last week. For those who are not medically savvy QTc interval prolongation can lead to fatal ventricular arrhythmias and sudden cardiac death
QuoteIn this trial involving hospitalized patients with mild-to-moderate Covid-19, we did not find a significant difference in a 15-day ordinal clinical-status outcome among groups that received standard care, hydroxychloroquine alone, or hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin. Patients who received hydroxychloroquine, either with azithromycin or alone, had more frequent events of QTc interval prolongation and elevation of liver-enzyme levels than patients who did not receive either agent
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2019014
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 29, 2020, 12:40:14 PM
Bob,
I have read countless scientific, public health, and medical articles, journals, and papers. In all that reading I have not encountered the terms "Great Erasers" and "Cancel Culture". Can you explain to me the scientific, medical, or public health relevance of those terms?
Rich: Answer my question first. I'm not going to allow you to change the subject. WHY is there such desperation to crush the free speech of actual doctors who have had success and want to tell you about it? Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 29, 2020, 12:46:16 PM
Rich: Answer my question first. I'm not going to allow you to change the subject. WHY is there such desperation to crush the free speech of actual doctors who have had success and want to tell you about it? Bob
Are you referring to Twitter suspending accounts of high profile Trump people for posting DANGEROUS FALSE information about Covid?
Well, for starters, Twitter could be liable if people died as a result of the dangerous misinformation they spread
Plus there is that whole good citizen of the world thing where you don't want your forum used to kill people. You can rest assured if someone posted that crap on our forum I would be pushing to have that person banned for life. While I always say facts matter, it is a matter of life and death when it comes to medicine and public health
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 29, 2020, 12:50:17 PM
Are you referring to Twitter suspending accounts of high profile Trump people for posting DANGEROUS FALSE information about Covid?
Well, for starters, Twitter could be liable if people died as a result of the dangerous misinformation they spread
Plus there is that whole good citizen of the world thing where you don't want your forum used to kill people. You can rest assured if someone posted that crap on our forum I would be pushing to have that person banned for life. While I always say facts matter, it is a matter of life and death when it comes to medicine and public health
Rich: The answer to your question is "no." Try again. WHY is there such desperation to crush the free speech of actual doctors who have had success and want to tell you about it? Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 29, 2020, 12:55:25 PM
Rich: The answer to your question is "no." Try again. WHY is there such desperation to crush the free speech of actual doctors who have had success and want to tell you about it? Bob
To answer your question you have to explain what doctors and how exactly their free speech has been crushed
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 29, 2020, 12:55:25 PM
Rich: The answer to your question is "no." Try again. WHY is there such desperation to crush the free speech of actual doctors who have had success and want to tell you about it? Bob
Stop talking about free speech being "crushed." Your 1st Amendment Right protects you from the government chilling your speech. Nothing of the sort is occurring here. Anyone is free to question the credentials, sanity, and medical conclusions of a person who has openly discussed her belief that the government is run by reptilians and aliens, and that infertility is caused by your spirit having intercourse with demons.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 29, 2020, 12:57:36 PM
To answer your question you have to explain what doctors and how exactly their free speech has been crushed
Rich: Here's a hint: the doctors to whom I am referring are NOT "high profile Trump people" who have posted "dangerous" or "false" information about Covid.
The people in the scrubbed video are REAL doctors who treat REAL patients and had ACTUAL success and want to tell me about it.
But I can't hear them because the entire video is now almost impossible to find. So I've only been able to see excerpts. I don't trust excerpts, no matter which TV station played them.
To understand MD's you must listen to every word they say. I suspect I can differentiate (in 2 ways) the N.E.J.M. study you cited from what they were talking about, but I can't be sure without seeing everything.
In any event, it's now the fourth time I've asked.... why the desperation to crush the free speech of actual doctors who have had success and want to tell us about it?
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 29, 2020, 01:52:40 PM
Rich: Here's a hint: the doctors to whom I am referring are NOT "high profile Trump people" who have posted "dangerous" or "false" information about Covid.
The people in the scrubbed video are REAL doctors who treat REAL patients and had ACTUAL success and want to tell me about it.
But I can't hear them because the entire video is now almost impossible to find. So I've only been able to see excerpts. I don't trust excerpts, no matter which TV station played them.
To understand MD's you must listen to every word they say. I suspect I can differentiate (in 2 ways) the N.E.J.M. study you cited from what they were talking about, but I can't be sure without seeing everything.
In any event, it's now the fourth time I've asked.... why the desperation to crush the free speech of actual doctors who have had success and want to tell us about it?
Bob
Bob,
Sorry, but if you want to have an answer, you need to name names and give specifics. I am not a conspiracy theory guy, so "hints" or "real doctors", "treat real patients", and "real success" doesn't do it for me and it certainly isn't how we do business in the scientific, medical, or public health arena.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on July 29, 2020, 01:30:53 PM
Stop talking about free speech being "crushed." Your 1st Amendment Right protects you from the government chilling your speech. Nothing of the sort is occurring here. Anyone is free to question the credentials, sanity, and medical conclusions of a person who has openly discussed her belief that the government is run by reptilians and aliens, and that infertility is caused by your spirit having intercourse with demons.
H-Town: As you already know, you are correct that Twitter is a private company and free to do what they want.
That does not address my issue, so I'll pose the question without referencing the Constitutional right to free speech.
Do you agree with Twitter erasing the video of real doctors reporting actual treatment results for so everyone can evaluate what weight (if any) to assign to their views?
Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 29, 2020, 01:58:25 PM
Bob,
Sorry, but if you want to have an answer, you need to name names and give specifics. I am not a conspiracy theory guy, so "hints" or "real doctors", "treat real patients", and "real success" doesn't do it for me and it certainly isn't how we do business in the scientific, medical, or public health arena.
Rich: I'll remember this moment the next time you ask me a question. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 29, 2020, 01:52:40 PM
Rich: Here's a hint: the doctors to whom I am referring are NOT "high profile Trump people" who have posted "dangerous" or "false" information about Covid.
The people in the scrubbed video are REAL doctors who treat REAL patients and had ACTUAL success and want to tell me about it.
But I can't hear them because the entire video is now almost impossible to find. So I've only been able to see excerpts. I don't trust excerpts, no matter which TV station played them.
To understand MD's you must listen to every word they say. I suspect I can differentiate (in 2 ways) the N.E.J.M. study you cited from what they were talking about, but I can't be sure without seeing everything.
In any event, it's now the fourth time I've asked.... why the desperation to crush the free speech of actual doctors who have had success and want to tell us about it?
Bob
Bob,
The video should be available on their website:
www.americasfrontlinedoctors.com
But here's a question for you: we all do research on doctors that we plan to see either for checkups or procedures that we're considering having done. You come across a doctor and find this during your research:
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on July 29, 2020, 01:30:53 PM
Anyone is free to question the credentials, sanity, and medical conclusions of a person who has openly discussed her belief that the government is run by reptilians and aliens, and that infertility is caused by your spirit having intercourse with demons.
How likely are you to see that doctor for your procedure?
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 29, 2020, 02:00:56 PM
Rich: I'll remember this moment the next time you ask me a question. Bob
Bob,
Did you make accusations without facts to support them? If a prosecutor followed your lead, how would a judge react?
My thoughts about the video:
Leave it up. It
We have other systems to prevent malfeasance in this area.
Medical Licensing, malpractice suits, import regulations etc. etc.
This is not twitters job
Quote from: Ron in NJ on July 29, 2020, 02:30:25 PM
We have other systems to prevent malfeasance in this area.
Medical Licensing, malpractice suits, import regulations etc. etc.
This is not twitters job
Ron,
False information can kill. Suspending license or a malpractice suit doesn't bring people back from the dead. In public health we prevent people from being killed, we don't worry about methods of extracting revenge.
Edit to add- Ron, this is exactly what I am talking about. This false claim will KILL people- "We don't need masks. There is a cure,"
Okay, now I get why Bob isn't providing details, he doesn't have any. He just knows that a group of people claimed to be doctors and he liked what they had to say.
Well here is an article that breaks down the qualifications of the "American Frontline Doctors"
https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/87797
Bob,
Why do you opt to listen to Donald Trump (Trump-
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 29, 2020, 04:14:04 PM
Ron: Two great points, neither of which had occurred to me. I don't have a Twitter account and therefore never go there. But I feel "deprived" for not having been able to see the video to decide for myself.
People who have covid might be interested. The same for anyone like me who fortunately don't have it. The "good news" is that absence of the chance to see the video may not stop people from asking their MD's.
With limited info I have, IMO the small group of MD's were treating people in very early stages of covid, whereas the study published in the New England Journal of Medicine dealt with "mild-to-moderate" cases.
It's hard to tell if the two overlap, although I suspect they do not. Further, I'm not sure if both the small group and the study in the N.E. Journal of Medicine are referencing exactly the same combination of drugs.
I do know that Dr. Marc Siegel (the "usual" Fox News medical guy) said on Tucker Carlson's show that in his view the verdict on the controversial treatment is still "up in the air" (not proven, and not yet enough data).
Bob
Did you go to their website? I posted a link to their site in my previous response to you.
I can't imagine why they would only post it to a platform where they have no control of it, especially when they have their own website.
Quote from: T200 on July 29, 2020, 04:48:15 PM
Did you go to their website? I posted a link to their site in my previous response to you.
I can't imagine why they would only post it to a platform where they have no control of it, especially when they have their own website.
Tim: Forgot to mention I did try the link and got a message that basically says that address is no longer in existence. Only the owner of the name can log in. I do appreciate the effort. Thanks. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 29, 2020, 04:53:04 PM
Tim: Forgot to mention I did try the link and got a message that basically says that address is no longer in existence. Only the owner of the name can log in. I do appreciate the effort. Thanks. Bob
Hmmmm that's weird. It didn't come up for me either. Oh well.
Any thoughts on my question?
Quote from: T200 on July 29, 2020, 05:27:13 PM
Hmmmm that's weird. It didn't come up for me either. Oh well.
Any thoughts on my question?
Tim: Is this the question to which you're referring --> How likely are you to see that doctor for your procedure? Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 29, 2020, 07:56:21 PM
Tim: Is this the question to which you're referring --> How likely are you to see that doctor for your procedure? Bob
Yes sir, that's the one.
Quote from: T200 on July 29, 2020, 09:03:07 PM
Yes sir, that's the one.
Tim: To answer your question I will have to assume there is a doctor as described by H-Town, from whose post you copied the following description:
..... [a doctor] "who openly discussed her belief that the government is run by reptilians and aliens, and that infertility is caused by your spirit having intercourse with demons..."
If that description were accurate and complete regarding the doctor to whom your question refers, then the answer to your question, obviously, is "not likely."
But the issue is censorship. IMO, supporting the burning of books and the silencing of speech is a very bad idea.... because YOU might be the next person someone decides to silence.
Another good reason for allowing the video to stand is that, IMO, the best way to identify "crackpots," people with hidden agendas, and fools, is to allow them to talk.... if you know what I mean.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 29, 2020, 09:58:16 PM
Tim: To answer your question I will have to assume there is a doctor as described by H-Town, from whose post you copied the following description:
..... [a doctor] "who openly discussed her belief that the government is run by reptilians and aliens, and that infertility is caused by your spirit having intercourse with demons..."
If that description were accurate and complete regarding the doctor to whom your question refers, then the answer to your question, obviously, is "not likely."
But the issue is censorship. IMO, supporting the burning of books and the silencing of speech is a very bad idea.... because YOU might be the next person someone decides to silence.
Another good reason for allowing the video to stand is that, IMO, the best way to identify "crackpots," people with hidden agendas, and fools, is to allow them to talk.... if you know what I mean.
Bob
OK, so your issue is that Twitter deleted the video.
But isn't it their call as to what is allowed on their platform?
Is that the only venue that those doctors had available to air their video?
Why is their website down? Is that of their own doing or someone else?
Quote from: T200 on July 29, 2020, 10:08:51 PM
OK, so your issue is that Twitter deleted the video.
But isn't it their call as to what is allowed on their platform?
Is that the only venue that those doctors had available to air their video?
Why is their website down? Is that of their own doing or someone else?
I feel like the video was created for the express purpose of having it banned from social media
You don
Quote from: T200 on July 29, 2020, 10:08:51 PM
OK, so your issue is that Twitter deleted the video.
But isn't it their call as to what is allowed on their platform?
Is that the only venue that those doctors had available to air their video?
Why is their website down? Is that of their own doing or someone else?
Tim: Yes, as H-Town has said and I think we all agree, the Constitutional right to free speech only applies to governmental action (and there was none here).
However, I believe we all generally support the concept of hearing ALL people out in public forums (like this one) even though they are not under a legal obligation to do so.
In any event, I haven't been able to find the whole video anywhere. Excerpts were played on TV but I don't trust excerpts (regardless of which channel played them), especially for medical and scientific matters.
I have no idea why the website is down, or who took it down, or who is ultimately responsible. It certainly could have been the "owner" but there are a few other possible explanations.
Maybe, eventually, some enterprising young "cub reporter" will probably provide those answers.
Bob
Quote from: Ron in NJ on July 29, 2020, 10:22:21 PM
I feel like the video was created for the express purpose of having it banned from social media
You don
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 29, 2020, 10:27:33 PM
Tim: Yes, as H-Town has said and I think we all agree, the Constitutional right to free speech only applies to governmental action (and there was none here).
However, I believe we all generally support the concept of hearing ALL people out in public forums (like this one) even though they are not under a legal obligation to do so.
In any event, I haven't been able to find the whole video anywhere. Excerpts were played on TV but I don't trust excerpts (regardless of which channel played them), especially for medical and scientific matters.
I have no idea why the website is down, or who took it down, or who is ultimately responsible. It certainly could have been the "owner" but there are a few other possible explanations.
Maybe, eventually, some enterprising young "cub reporter" will probably provide those answers.
Bob
I understand where you're coming from, Bob. And I tend to agree.
Personally, if I feel so strongly about something and I put it out for public consumption and it is removed, I'm going to find another avenue because it is that important. Not only that, I'm providing actual proof to support my stance. To my knowledge, these people just appeared on the scene with these claims. Does anyone have any information to substantiate their claims?
Quote from: T200 on July 29, 2020, 10:50:51 PM
So you're saying the doctors themselves created the video just to have it banned? To what end?
I'm sure they absolutely knew she had 'other-worldly' ideas and thoughts. They either believe similarly or don't think it's too far-fetched. And if they thought she was kooky, why let her speak?
To create a sense of persecution in a certain group of people, that their rights are being trampled. Any only one man is standing up for them. Better make sure to vote for him in November. Trumps use of conspiracy theories is pretty well documented.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 29, 2020, 09:58:16 PM
Tim: To answer your question I will have to assume there is a doctor as described by H-Town, from whose post you copied the following description:
..... [a doctor] "who openly discussed her belief that the government is run by reptilians and aliens, and that infertility is caused by your spirit having intercourse with demons..."
If that description were accurate and complete regarding the doctor to whom your question refers, then the answer to your question, obviously, is "not likely."
But the issue is censorship. IMO, supporting the burning of books and the silencing of speech is a very bad idea.... because YOU might be the next person someone decides to silence.
Another good reason for allowing the video to stand is that, IMO, the best way to identify "crackpots," people with hidden agendas, and fools, is to allow them to talk.... if you know what I mean.
Bob
Bob,
Is it "censorship" that you are not allowed to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded movie theater???
Quote from: Ron in NJ on July 30, 2020, 06:20:34 AM
To create a sense of persecution in a certain group of people, that their rights are being trampled. Any only one man is standing up for them. Better make sure to vote for him in November. Trumps use of conspiracy theories is pretty well documented.
That's not out of the realm of possibility.
Herman Cain attended last month's Trump rally in Tulsa, where he contracted the coronavirus...
(https://cdn.christianpost.com/files/cache/image/13/94/139446_w_400_300.jpg)
https://www.bet.com/news/national/2020/07/30/herman-cain-dies-covid-19-coronavirus-former-gop-presidential-candidate.html
May he rest in peace... :(
ATTENTION ALL "SCIENTISTS"
The same guy Rich peed on last week (because he is "only" a professor of epidemiology and Director of Yale's Molecular Cancer Epidemiology Laboratory) is back.
https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/coronavirus/yale-epidemiologist-accuses-fauci-running-disinformation-campaign
Follow the money, guys! Big Pharma stands to make a fortune by developing covid vaccines, and they can't allow puny little hydroxychloroquine to get in the way of all those profits.
Bob
PS. Hey, maybe this guy can be videotaped hunched over a pot of boiling rat tails and stirring it with a voodoo stick while shaking a bag of bones.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 30, 2020, 11:14:16 AM
ATTENTION ALL "SCIENTISTS"
The same guy Rich peed on last week (because he is "only" a professor of epidemiology and Director of Yale's Molecular Cancer Epidemiology Laboratory) is back.
https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/coronavirus/yale-epidemiologist-accuses-fauci-running-disinformation-campaign
Follow the money, guys! Big Pharma stands to make a fortune by developing covid vaccines, and they can't allow puny little hydroxychloroquine to get in the way of all those profits.
Bob
PS. Hey, maybe this guy can be videotaped hunched over a pot of boiling rat tails and stirring it with a voodoo stick while shaking a bag of bones.
"Risch argued that, while hydroxychloroquine is not a universally effective treatment..." i.e. its not going to replace a vaccine. He's saying there are limited cases where evidence suggests HCQ is helpful, despite the absence of random standardized testing to support it. And one of the caveats is that the patients need to be "high-risk." So again, not going to replace a vaccine for most of the population even presuming he's correct. I fail to see the connection between the article and your assertions.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on July 30, 2020, 11:24:06 AM
"Risch argued that, while hydroxychloroquine is not a universally effective treatment..." i.e. its not going to replace a vaccine. He's saying there are limited cases where evidence suggests HCQ is helpful, despite the absence of random standardized testing to support it. And one of the caveats is that the patients need to be "high-risk." So again, not going to replace a vaccine for most of the population even presuming he's correct. I fail to see the connection between the article and your assertions.
H-Town: There isn't any. The assertion about Big Pharma is mine alone (at this time).
However, I believe as events unfold you may see more and more of a connection.
The part about "rattling bones" is just a (weak) joke to reinforce my point that this guy is imminently qualified to have his views undergo serious consideration.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 30, 2020, 11:28:29 AM
H-Town: There isn't any. The assertion about Big Pharma is mine alone (at this time).
However, I believe as events unfold you may see more and more of a connection.
The part about "rattling bones" is just a (weak) joke to reinforce my point that this guy is imminently qualified to have his views undergo serious consideration.
Bob
I understand the "rattling bones" part, which is why I looked at the substance of his opinions. He did not, as Dr. Immanuel did, state broadly that HCQ is a "cure" for COVID-19. He was careful to limit his opinion to a specific cross-section of potential patients. And he certainly didn't proclaim there's no need for masks because of HCQ. So I don't think that because I can at least understand Dr. Fisch's point (whether I agree or not) means that Dr. Immanuel's should be equally credited.
I'm sure there is money to be made in vaccines. Look at Moderna's stock in the recent months. But given that the article you posted has Dr. Fisch taking issue with Dr. Fauci's reticence to promote HCQ without a random standardized test, then turning around and saying that there's money in vaccines, one would reasonably infer that you're implying Dr. Fauci is refusing to acknowledge HCQ to promote the medical industry's capitalization of a COVID vaccine market. To me, that is a tenuous connection at best given Dr. Fauci's reputation. What I see is two doctors disagreeing about what level of evidence they need to support the clinical use of a drug.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on July 30, 2020, 11:50:19 AM
I understand the "rattling bones" part, which is why I looked at the substance of his opinions. He did not, as Dr. Immanuel did, state broadly that HCQ is a "cure" for COVID-19. He was careful to limit his opinion to a specific cross-section of potential patients. And he certainly didn't proclaim there's no need for masks because of HCQ. So I don't think that because I can at least understand Dr. Fisch's point (whether I agree or not) means that Dr. Immanuel's should be equally credited.
I'm sure there is money to be made in vaccines. Look at Moderna's stock in the recent months. But given that the article you posted has Dr. Fisch taking issue with Dr. Fauci's reticence to promote HCQ without a random standardized test, then turning around and saying that there's money in vaccines, one would reasonably infer that you're implying Dr. Fauci is refusing to acknowledge HCQ to promote the medical industry's capitalization of a COVID vaccine market. To me, that is a tenuous connection at best given Dr. Fauci's reputation. What I see is two doctors disagreeing about what level of evidence they need to support the clinical use of a drug.
H-Town: Your description of the nature of the article is spot-on, IMO; the story itself is well-written and about as "neutral" as anything gets these days.
And I appreciate your serious response even though IMO my initial contentiousness may not have fully merited it. :o
As for your second point, I agree with your final observation because that's what we should expect scientists to do, especially with a novel microbe. Thanks.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 30, 2020, 11:14:16 AM
ATTENTION ALL "SCIENTISTS"
The same guy Rich peed on last week (because he is "only" a professor of epidemiology and Director of Yale's Molecular Cancer Epidemiology Laboratory) is back.
https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/coronavirus/yale-epidemiologist-accuses-fauci-running-disinformation-campaign
Follow the money, guys! Big Pharma stands to make a fortune by developing covid vaccines, and they can't allow puny little hydroxychloroquine to get in the way of all those profits.
Bob
PS. Hey, maybe this guy can be videotaped hunched over a pot of boiling rat tails and stirring it with a voodoo stick while shaking a bag of bones.
Ironic that your cancer doctor who fraudulently goes by the more generic "epidemiologist" to create a false credential is accusing a real expert of fraud. This is the sort of fake lizard people science that the right is pushing to ruin our nation and kill people. Herman Caine can be counted now as one of the victims
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on July 30, 2020, 11:24:06 AM
"Risch argued that, while hydroxychloroquine is not a universally effective treatment..." i.e. its not going to replace a vaccine. He's saying there are limited cases where evidence suggests HCQ is helpful, despite the absence of random standardized testing to support it. And one of the caveats is that the patients need to be "high-risk." So again, not going to replace a vaccine for most of the population even presuming he's correct. I fail to see the connection between the article and your assertions.
Thank you for restoring my faith that not everyone is anti-science :ok:
Quote from: T200 on July 30, 2020, 11:11:40 AM
Herman Cain attended last month's Trump rally in Tulsa, where he contracted the coronavirus...
(https://cdn.christianpost.com/files/cache/image/13/94/139446_w_400_300.jpg)
https://www.bet.com/news/national/2020/07/30/herman-cain-dies-covid-19-coronavirus-former-gop-presidential-candidate.html
May he rest in peace... :(
This is so upsetting. This is exactly what I and everyone else in public health have been fighting so hard to prevent. It's our job to save lives and everyone that dies of this virus is another loss in our war. :(
I came across this meme (the death is unfortunately real). Sadly ironic that a man who founded a conservative group that was encouraging dangerous anti-American practices that spread Covid would die of that same disease
(https://i.redd.it/02v23cakj0e51.png)
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 30, 2020, 12:50:04 PM
This is so upsetting. This is exactly what I and everyone else in public health have been fighting so hard to prevent. It's our job to save lives and everyone that dies of this virus is another loss in our war. :(
Just heard about Cain's passing. Does anyone know how he got Covid? Was it at the rally where he is pictured here?
Herman Cain, a 75 old old Black man died from Covid19 at the age of 75. He was a leading Conservative voice for a number of years. He had been going many places without the use of a mask. But, the liberal media are playing up the fact that he did attend Trump's Tulsa Gathering. That plays him little justice. A GOOD MAN. May he RIP.
Quote from: umassgrad on July 30, 2020, 06:03:35 PM
Just heard about Cain's passing. Does anyone know how he got Covid? Was it at the rally where he is pictured here?
umass: He WAS at that rally, but there has been no word if there was attempted "tracing" and/or whether any determination has been reached which would answer your other question. A nice man. Bob
A good man... may God bless him. Bob
He's be alive today if your current adminstration had advocated wearing masks when everyone told us it was necessary.
And your current president, in his ever longing to hold rallies when everyone told him not to. How many more will die because of the just studid actions of this psychopath.
Just a foolish loss of life for a wonderful man.
I have not read a single doctor who has said, "COVID-19 is not very serious." I have heard a bunch of non-physicians say it is not as serious as the media has made it to be." Hmmm, which group am I going to believe, the ones who actually went to medical school or the ones who didn't?
There are days I wake up and sometimes wish significant influencers of this view would catch the damn thing and experience the hardships to maybe change the view of these people.
Lenn & Phil - That's all you can say on a thread that was put up to honor a man's death? SHAME on you!!!!! ~X( ~X(
I heard of his death on a CBS (Liberal media) Radio newscast. They mentioned that he had been at the Trump Tulsa Rally. BUT, they also said he had been to many places recently. No one knows.
Quote from: jimv on July 30, 2020, 08:22:23 PM
Lenn & Phil - That's all you can say on a thread that was put up to honor a man's death? SHAME on you!!!!! ~X( ~X(
Jim,
You're always quick to point out a political thread when others post it. You can't assign blame to the "liberal media" and then call someone else out for responding along those lines.
Additionally, I addressed his passing in the COVID thread on the Front Porch and you decided to post this here.
The rules are the same for all of us.
Quote from: umassgrad on July 30, 2020, 06:03:35 PM
Just heard about Cain's passing. Does anyone know how he got Covid? Was it at the rally where he is pictured here?
No one knows for sure but he has been seen without a mask and was hospitalized days after the Tulsa rally. Being fully exposed certainly didn't help. Neither did being African American and over 60 as studies have shown those to be the demographics that COVID affects the hardest. Why he wouldn't wear a mask in a public setting is beyond me.
God bless him. His suffering (in more ways than one) is over.
Quote from: LennG on July 30, 2020, 06:58:41 PM
He's be alive today if your current adminstration had advocated wearing masks when everyone told us it was necessary.
Shame on you.
Quote from: T200 on July 30, 2020, 09:21:08 PM
Jim,
You're always quick to point out a political thread when others post it. You can't assign blame to the "liberal media" and then call someone else out for responding along those lines.
Additionally, I addressed his passing in the COVID thread on the Front Porch and you decided to post this here.
The rules are the same for all of us.
Tim, Your mentioning Cain's death was just in passing. As we always do, when mentioning a significant death, we do it on the main page. That's what I did. It was Phil & Lenn who made it into a political thread. I mentioned CBS as liberal medium only because they gave his death the appropriate lack of knowledge as to its cause; more than our liberal friends on the Board did.
Quote from: jimv on July 31, 2020, 12:43:32 AM
Tim, Your mentioning Cain's death was just in passing. As we always do, when mentioning a significant death, we do it on the main page. That's what I did. It was Phil & Lenn who made it into a political thread. I mentioned CBS as liberal medium only because they gave his death the appropriate lack of knowledge as to its cause; more than our liberal friends on the Board did.
Jim,
You could have mentioned his death without the 'liberal media' reference, just as I did.
Whoever makes it political after that is on them, not you.
Either way, your thread and post were not altered in any way.
Rich: Serious question about masks. A lot of posts talk about "masks" but from what I've read and heard recently, just any old mask will not do the job, and could actually be counterproductive.
Specifically, there are reports indicating that if you're not wearing a surgical grade N95 respirator mask, you are at least wasting your time and money, and maybe doing more harm than good.
Apparently, masks made of cloth (and a few other types) might actually be worse than wearing no mask at all. What's the actual current consensus?
Bob
a few thoughts on the recent posts
Herman Caine- When I talk to people about Covid, I warn them to be extra careful around those not wearing masks or otherwise engaging in risky behavior. I tell them that such people are a double threat. First, they are not wearing a mask to there is a risk posed by not wearing one. What I also tell them is I consider these people high-risk individuals because their reckless behavior puts them at greater risk of being infected, So you should steer very clear of the non-mask wearers. As for where Herman Caine contracted Corona Virus, the timeline suggests he COULD have contracted the virus at Trump's rally. It's not certain that is where he contracted the disease, and since he was following Trump's "masks are not cool" policy, there are many other places that he could have contracted the disease as well.
Tim, you're correct about this disease impacting African Americans at a disproportionate rate. Herman Caine was well off, so most likely, he had the best medical care money can buy. I had attributed part of the African American impact on cities being a hotbed for the virus spread due to the crowding. If memory serves, African Americans are more prone to hypertension and cardiac disease, which are both risk factors for poor outcomes from the disease. I would also suggest that his refusal to wear masks means he likely received a higher dose of the virus. While studies are difficult to conduct to prove the idea that higher doses of the virus lead to worst results (you can't keep infecting people with higher and higher doses of a disease that can kill) from what we know of other diseases, it's likely true. So his lack of a mask means he got a higher dose from the infected person(s) he came into contact with and could have contributed to his death
BOB
You said you have been reading and hearing about masks being worthless or possibly worse than worthless. STOP... stop reading and listening to who or what is making those dangerous false claims
Here is the SCIENCE
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent
As for the "shame" patrol, if you support Donald Trump, you lost the right to "shame" anyone, in my opinion
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 31, 2020, 07:15:09 AM
Rich: Serious question about masks. A lot of posts talk about "masks" but from what I've read and heard recently, just any old mask will not do the job, and could actually be counterproductive.
Specifically, there are reports indicating that if you're not wearing a surgical grade N95 respirator mask, you are at least wasting your time and money, and maybe doing more harm than good.
Apparently, masks made of cloth (and a few other types) might actually be worse than wearing no mask at all. What's the actual current consensus?
Bob
For me, this is one of those 'common sense' situations where consensus doesn't matter. I prefer to use my own brain and eyes.
If the virus is transmitting through expelled and inhaled virus particles (coughing, breathing, sneezing) then why would a covering, ANY covering that inhibits those particles to be exhaled or inhaled provide some sort of protection? It doesn't have to be 100% or even 90% effective. To me, anything that can reduce the chances of me passing it on or catching it is effective, even at 10-20%.
Quote from: T200 on July 31, 2020, 08:45:48 AM
For me, this is one of those 'common sense' situations where consensus doesn't matter. I prefer to use my own brain and eyes.
If the virus is transmitting through expelled and inhaled virus particles (coughing, breathing, sneezing) then why would a covering, ANY covering that inhibits those particles to be exhaled or inhaled provide some sort of protection? It doesn't have to be 100% or even 90% effective. To me, anything that can reduce the chances of me passing it on or catching it is effective, even at 10-20%.
Tim: Yes, but there are other issues with cloth masks in addition to those you are correctly considering.
For example, cloth masks can retain particles in a way that you can infect yourself by touching (with your hands, for instance) particles on the outside of the masks that have been blocked from your face.
The whole mask thing is very very complicated (example: the Fauci change of public stance) and that's why I have asked Rich to tell us the current consensus and respond when he has time to consider the matter.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 31, 2020, 09:34:22 AM
Tim: Yes, but there are other issues with cloth masks in addition to those you are correctly considering.
For example, cloth masks can retain particles in a way that you can infect yourself by touching (with your hands, for instance) particles on the outside of the masks that have been blocked from your face.
The whole mask thing is very very complicated (example: the Fauci change of public stance) and that's why I have asked Rich to tell us the current consensus and respond when he has time to consider the matter.
Bob
And that's why they continue to say wash your hands or use hand sanitizer. Additionally, masks are supposed to be cleaned after each use (I have multiple) or thrown away for the disposable ones.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 31, 2020, 09:34:22 AM
Tim: Yes, but there are other issues with cloth masks in addition to those you are correctly considering.
For example, cloth masks can retain particles in a way that you can infect yourself by touching (with your hands, for instance) particles on the outside of the masks that have been blocked from your face.
The whole mask thing is very very complicated (example: the Fauci change of public stance) and that's why I have asked Rich to tell us the current consensus and respond when he has time to consider the matter.
Bob
Masks are only complicated if you are looking for an excuse to not wear one. If you are simply looking to protect yourself and others and limit the spread of the disease, masks are as straight forward as a bullet "proof" vest for lawenforcement/military or a helmet for motorcycle riders
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 31, 2020, 08:18:51 AM
BOB
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent
Rich: Thanks for the link. Bob
PS. So nothing has changed since July 11th, the date of the update?
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 31, 2020, 09:44:59 AM
Rich: Thanks for the link. Bob
PS. So nothing has changed since July 11th, the date of the update?
Bob,
The efficacy of masks and face coverings preventing the spread of Covid is pretty much-established science. It's highly unlikely you will see anything change in that regard.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 31, 2020, 09:57:50 AM
Bob,
The efficacy of masks and face coverings preventing the spread of Covid is pretty much-established science. It's highly unlikely you will see anything change in that regard.
Thanks again.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 31, 2020, 09:34:22 AM
Tim: Yes, but there are other issues with cloth masks in addition to those you are correctly considering.
For example, cloth masks can retain particles in a way that you can infect yourself by touching (with your hands, for instance) particles on the outside of the masks that have been blocked from your face.
The whole mask thing is very very complicated (example: the Fauci change of public stance) and that's why I have asked Rich to tell us the current consensus and respond when he has time to consider the matter.
Bob
I HAVE to address this. I do not doubt that Bob has heard this dangerous propaganda that can kill you. Let me break it down:
"Cloth masks can retain particles in a way that can infect yourself by touching those particles"- First, you have to ask how those particles got there. They didn't just float and land on the mask; otherwise, your pants, shirt, and exposed skin would be equally dangerous. Rather those particles deposited on your mask when you inhaled. So this is the critical part:
IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE A MASK THOSE SAME PARTICLES THAT BOB'S SOURCE SAID WERE DANGEROUS ON YOUR MASK WOULD BE DEPOSITED IN YOUR NOSE, THROAT, AND LUNGSSo to go back to Tim's common-sense approach, you have to ask yourself- would you rather have the virus particle on your mask or in your body?
So that is what the propaganda Bob read/heard- they tried to make the case that virus particles are more dangerous on your mask than in your body
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 31, 2020, 08:18:51 AM
...As for the "shame" patrol, if you support Donald Trump, you lost the right to "shame" anyone, in my opinion
That's right, Rich It IS just YOUR opinion.
Quote from: jimv on July 31, 2020, 10:47:05 AM
That's right, Rich It IS just YOUR opinion.
It is my opinion, but I can state as a matter of fact that there are many other people who share that same opinion so it's not "just" my opinion
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 31, 2020, 10:51:34 AM
It is my opinion, but I can state as a matter of fact that there are many other people who share that same opinion so it's not "just" my opinion
I realize you must always have the last word on anything. But, there are also MANY people who DON'T share that opinion. :yes: :yes: :yes:
Now, go ahead & have your last word.
Quote from: jimv on July 31, 2020, 11:49:08 AM
I realize you must always have the last word on anything. But, there are also MANY people who DON'T share that opinion. :yes: :yes: :yes:
Now, go ahead & have your last word.
Jim,
I know you and a few others must always have the last word (I consider who has the last word such a petty and nonsensical concern I don't even pay attention to it) so you may have your precious last word. It's all yours
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 31, 2020, 09:42:20 AM
Masks are only complicated if you are looking for an excuse to not wear one. If you are simply looking to protect yourself and others and limit the spread of the disease, masks are as straight forward as a bullet "proof" vest for lawenforcement/military or a helmet for motorcycle riders
Rich: Although I am NOT looking for an excuse to avoid wearing a mask, I nevertheless find the issue complicated in one tiny respect. I am NOT referring to the link you cited. It's very straightforward.
And I'm not going to discuss it, because to do so might cause confusion and muddle the message of the link.
I do agree 100 percent that wearing a mask is always better than not for preventing the wearer from spreading the virus (or other microbes) to other people.
Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 31, 2020, 10:19:15 AM
I HAVE to address this. I do not doubt that Bob has heard this dangerous propaganda that can kill you. Let me break it down:
"Cloth masks can retain particles in a way that can infect yourself by touching those particles"- First, you have to ask how those particles got there. They didn't just float and land on the mask; otherwise, your pants, shirt, and exposed skin would be equally dangerous. Rather those particles deposited on your mask when you inhaled. So this is the critical part:
IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE A MASK THOSE SAME PARTICLES THAT BOB'S SOURCE SAID WERE DANGEROUS ON YOUR MASK WOULD BE DEPOSITED IN YOUR NOSE, THROAT, AND LUNGS
So to go back to Tim's common-sense approach, you have to ask yourself- would you rather have the virus particle on your mask or in your body?
So that is what the propaganda Bob read/heard- they tried to make the case that virus particles are more dangerous on your mask than in your body
Rich: It's a good explanation.
Would have been an excellent explanation without the use of the word propaganda.
The point is.... be careful with dirty masks, no matter what they're made of.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 31, 2020, 12:12:21 PM
Rich: It's a good explanation.
Would have been an excellent explanation without the use of the word propaganda.
The point is.... be careful with dirty masks, no matter what they're made of.
Bob
Bob,
I wish you could see what I see. I see things through a lens. A lens that spent a lifetime being mindful of what I tell people could literally kill them if I provide faulty guidance. As an EMT, people in a medical crisis or with serious problems would ask me what they should do. In hospital facilities, workers would ask me questions or seek guidance on problems if handled incorrectly could kill or harm many patients. In public health, people ask guidance about diseases and public health problems. With my science background, it wasn't hard for me to drill into myself careful self-discipline to make sure I say things that are correct (to the best of my abilities) and that I clearly state the limits of my knowledge. After 35 years, it's become second nature to me.
When you present someone who makes a statement as glaringly wrong and dangerous as the one you shared, it makes me angry. I think about the Herman Caines of the world, and I remember how people like that author or commentator share potential blame in his death. It's the antithesis of my very professional being. Whoever made that statement was either unqualified to make it or deliberately deceived. Either option angers me.
I think this whole mask thing is silly. EVERYONE says it is 100X better to be wearing a mask than not. But, on NO scientific basis other than Trump speak, people question the value of it.
I have ALWAYS had the philosophy that it is better to have something and not need it, than to need something and not have it. If wearing a mask ony helped 50% of the time, and it has been proved that it helps more than that, then why not just wear the darn thing? REALLY. What harm is it doing by wearing a mask?
And we can see from poor Herman Cain, that money won't help you not dying from this virus, but a mask might.
How many more must, and will die, because of this silly foolishness.
Just a couple of headlines I saw this AM.
For all those that think children are safe
Report: Coronavirus infected scores of children and staff at Georgia sleep-away camp
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/report-coronavirus-infected-scores-of-children-and-staff-at-georgia-sleep-away-camp/ar-BB17qjZU?ocid=msedgntp
A new report suggests that children of all ages are susceptible to coronavirus infection and may also spread it to others
Quote from: LennG on August 01, 2020, 11:21:49 AM
Just a couple of headlines I saw this AM.
For all those that think children are safe
Report: Coronavirus infected scores of children and staff at Georgia sleep-away camp
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/report-coronavirus-infected-scores-of-children-and-staff-at-georgia-sleep-away-camp/ar-BB17qjZU?ocid=msedgntp
A new report suggests that children of all ages are susceptible to coronavirus infection and may also spread it to others
As I was doing my Saturday walk, I thought a bit about the whole, "masks are not settled science" claims. As I thought, I realized just how far afield from the truth those claims truly are.
Fact- The virus particles are carried in water droplets of various sizes
Fact- Mask materials of all types (with the exception of a few wide weave fabrics) will filter out water droplets with varying degrees of efficiency
Fact- The fewer particles one inhales the better
Fact- Masks are an effective means of reducing exposure to Corona virus
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 01, 2020, 01:01:23 PM
As I was doing my Saturday walk, I thought a bit about the whole, "masks are not settled science" claims. As I thought, I realized just how far afield from the truth those claims truly are.
Fact- The virus particles are carried in water droplets of various sizes
Fact- Mask materials of all types (with the exception of a few wide weave fabrics) will filter out water droplets with varying degrees of efficiency
Fact- The fewer particles one inhales the better
Fact- Masks are an effective means of reducing exposure to Corona virus
Rich: If you don't mind, I'm changing the subject, for the moment, to the flu.
Do you happen to know if the data shows that the various influenza viruses spread more by droplets than by touching surfaces?
I ask because both my wife and I got BOTH of the types of flu not covered by the flu shot this past winter. ~X(
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 01, 2020, 01:15:29 PM
Rich: If you don't mind, I'm changing the subject, for the moment, to the flu.
Do you happen to know if the data shows that the various influenza viruses spread more by droplets than by touching surfaces?
I ask because both my wife and I got BOTH of the types of flu not covered by the flu shot this past winter. ~X(
Bob
The experts believe that the primary spread is via droplets while the secondary spread is surface (fomite) transmission (tocughing contaminated surfaces and then touching eyes, mouth, or nose)
I could fill a book with stories like these
Tennessee pastor tested positive for COVID-19 one week after meeting with Trump and administration officials at the White House
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/a-tennessee-pastor-tested-positive-for-covid-19-one-week-after-meeting-with-trump-and-administration-officials-at-the-white-house/ar-BB17svBd?ocid=msedgdhp
ev. Cleek also said he was never "close" to President Trump while attending the event. A video of the event broadcast on C-SPAN shows he was sitting next to A.G. Barr. Nobody seated at the table
I guess
Monkey saym, monkey do, only if it doesn't apply to him.
so what does this mean? Trump has blasted schools for not opening this Fall, threatening to withhold money from them if they don't open. But what about his son barron. Well, it seems his school isn't part of Daddy's deal as it won't be opening, as of now, until october.
Trump
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 01, 2020, 05:08:19 PM
The experts believe that the primary spread is via droplets while the secondary spread is surface (fomite) transmission (tocughing contaminated surfaces and then touching eyes, mouth, or nose)
Rich: Many thanks. Bob
Notice to all members:
Unless there are serious objections, from now on, posts under this thread should be limited to "pure" health-related issues.
Politically-tinged posts about covid should be made in the thread entitled.... SENSITIVE TOPICS - Readers Beware!
If you put one here by mistake or before seeing this post, no problem. I'll move it, hopefully without making a mess. Thank you all for cooperating.
Bob
PS. It's ok with me (although I don't speak for the other moderators) if you put something borderline here ALONG WITH your reasoning why it belongs here rather than under the other topic.
From Johns Hopkins updated at 3 am today
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/testing/international-comparison
"The U.S. has conducted more COVID-19 tests than any other country. However, there is no expert consensus on a recommended target for the raw number of tests or even the rate of tests per capita
Quote from: philo43 on August 02, 2020, 11:01:18 AM
From Johns Hopkins updated at 3 am today
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/testing/international-comparison
"The U.S. has conducted more COVID-19 tests than any other country. However, there is no expert consensus on a recommended target for the raw number of tests or even the rate of tests per capita
Johns Hopkins University (one of the leading universities in science and medicine) is spreading disinformation? Did they become political? They are who CNN, many of the major news media, Government agencies and state Health Departments go to for information.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/11/health/johns-hopkins-covid-19-map-team-wellness-trnd/index.html
"(CNN)If the year 2020 is good for anything, it's the lesson that during a crisis, anyone who builds a better mousetrap will find the world beating a path to his door.
A humble team at Johns Hopkins University in Maryland reminded the world of late poet Ralph Waldo Emerson's phrase when they created a real time tracking map of coronavirus cases and deaths.
And the world came to their door. They report that the site, plus downloads of its data, hosts three to five billion interactions daily. By their measurement, interactions include uses of the public dashboard and requests from a separate website for the underlying data used by news outlets and others who design their own maps and graphics.
Government agencies, public health departments, the public and news outlets, including CNN, regularly rely on it for the latest updates on the confirmed cases, deaths and recoveries connected to this harrowing disease."
Sorry, I believe Johns Hopkins (no political agenda that I can see) - if you don't ok.
Quote from: philo43 on August 02, 2020, 04:03:05 PM
Johns Hopkins University (one of the leading universities in science and medicine) is spreading disinformation? Did they become political? They are who CNN, many of the major news media, Government agencies and state Health Departments go to for information.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/11/health/johns-hopkins-covid-19-map-team-wellness-trnd/index.html
"(CNN)If the year 2020 is good for anything, it's the lesson that during a crisis, anyone who builds a better mousetrap will find the world beating a path to his door.
A humble team at Johns Hopkins University in Maryland reminded the world of late poet Ralph Waldo Emerson's phrase when they created a real time tracking map of coronavirus cases and deaths.
And the world came to their door. They report that the site, plus downloads of its data, hosts three to five billion interactions daily. By their measurement, interactions include uses of the public dashboard and requests from a separate website for the underlying data used by news outlets and others who design their own maps and graphics.
Government agencies, public health departments, the public and news outlets, including CNN, regularly rely on it for the latest updates on the confirmed cases, deaths and recoveries connected to this harrowing disease."
Sorry, I believe Johns Hopkins (no political agenda that I can see) - if you don't ok.
Your source didn't provide numbers or a table. It did fit your agenda and in the end that is all that matters. You even ignored the main points of your own link because it didn't fit your agenda. I could have provided more than busy two tables that showed you were wrong, but I doubt it would matter.
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 02, 2020, 04:18:41 PM
Your source didn't provide numbers or a table. It did fit your agenda and in the end that is all that matters. You even ignored the main points of your own link because it didn't fit your agenda. I could have provided more than busy two tables that showed you were wrong, but I doubt it would matter.
Tables are the defining factor in accuracy? Wow, just wow - you dismiss one of the leading major organizations in tracking COVID 19?
What was the main points not addressed?
Quote from: philo43 on August 02, 2020, 04:33:59 PM
Tables are the defining factor in accuracy? Wow, just wow - you dismiss one of the leading major organizations in tracking COVID 19?
What was the main points not addressed?
This is where you John Hopkins said they got their data
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing
Yet the US doesn't lead the world in testing per capita according to the source they cited. You know what else is flawed with the link you supplied? It has no date. In the ever changing world of Covid, no proper article or graph would be left without a date.
As for the main points, it was the part you didn't put in bold.
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 02, 2020, 05:34:13 PM
This is where you John Hopkins said they got their data
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing
Yet the US doesn't lead the world in testing per capita according to the source they cited. You know what else is flawed with the link you supplied? It has no date. In the ever changing world of Covid, no proper article or graph would be left without a date.
As for the main points, it was the part you didn't put in bold.
OK, you have your agenda , stick to it.
Quote from: philo43 on August 02, 2020, 06:14:25 PM
OK, you have your agenda , stick to it.
Clearly you would rather gnaw off your own foot than admit I was correct and you were mistaken. Not exactly the sort of good environment for good conversation. This isn't a competition Philo. We are all facing the same virus and we are trying to get through it. You don't need to make yourself more enemies during this, as the virus is a big enough challenge for all of us. I am not your enemy
As I said, you have your agenda, stick to it. The more you post, the more it is evident.
Quote from: philo43 on August 02, 2020, 08:43:51 PM
As I said, you have your agenda, stick to it. The more you post, the more it is evident.
Yes, that agenda is the TRUTH. and thank you for the compliment.
Normally, I wouldn't be such a stickler, but when you post false information (like you did with your article which contradicted itself with its own references) people can get hurt or worse die. Granted I doubt anything we post on our little front porch will be that impactful, but it's hard to turn off the "we must get it right" mindset.
OK, so now you have given me a choice.
Who do I choose to believe?
Statements from Johns Hopkins University, one of the leaders in the world in medical science, or Rich who works at "xyz" Hospital.
I thought earlier you posted we should listen to the "experts". Do the experts only count when they agree with you?
Quote from: philo43 on August 03, 2020, 08:04:43 AM
OK, so now you have given me a choice.
Who do I choose to believe?
Statements from Johns Hopkins University, one of the leaders in the world in medical science, or Rich who works at "xyz" Hospital.
I thought earlier you posted we should listen to the "experts". Do the experts only count when they agree with you?
WOW! That was very disingenuous. You could believe the link your undated John Hopkins article claimed was its source for its/your claim that showed YOU and the anonymous John Hopkins article were wrong. You could believe the two outstanding links (that are used by public health professionals around the world) that I provided that showed YOU your article were wrong as well. You are so OBSESSED with your silly little personal feud/agenda that you will literally distort reality. You don't have to believe me, you just have to look at all the sources including THE ONE YOU PROVIDED that all show you were wrong. You twisted reality so badly you think all the actual facts were from "ME" rather than from independent sources. Philo, I think you need to take a break from reading and responding to my posts, as doing so does not seem to be a good thing for your mental health.
Enough. I have a couple of new questions and I'm waiting until this ends so I can ask them. Bob
Bob,
Hopefully, the petty feuds and efforts to prove someone wrong is over. Feel free to ask your questions. Here is a good article that describes what could prove to be the most difficult. In my opinion, this is the biggest problem being faced world-wide.
NEWS | July 7, 2020
"COVID fatigue" is hitting hard. Fighting it is hard, too, says UC Davis Health psychologist
It's time to develop coping skills, which include exercise and talking about our fears and stress.
(SACRAMENTO)
Rich: The reasons for shutdowns and masks, etc., are to minimize the number of cases while simultaneously giving the doctors as much time as possible to discover the "best" ways of treating people who become ill.
The media "conversation" appears to be "stuck" on the contentious stuff and I don't see much reporting about advances and progress in treatment.
I don't want to occupy your time searching for stuff that you don't ordinarily keep track of, so my preliminary question: do you follow developments in treating patients diagnosed with various stages of the disease?
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 03, 2020, 10:34:12 AM
Rich: The reasons for shutdowns and masks are to minimize the number of cases while simultaneously giving the doctors as much time as possible to discover the "best" ways of treating people who become ill.
The media "conversation" appears to be "stuck" on that stuff and I don't see much reporting about advances and progress in treatment.
I don't want to occupy your time searching for stuff that you don't ordinarily keep track of, so my preliminary question: do you follow developments in treating patients diagnosed with various stages of the disease?
Bob
Treatment isn't really my professional area of focus, but I do try and keep track of the treatments that are out there. I know we have made considerable strides since the disease hit us back in February/March. I can tell you that from my vantage point I am not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel in terms of definitive treatment or a definite date of a vaccine.
It's sort of funny, when this started we were talking about "flattening the cure" and the idea then was to keep hospitals and EMS from being overwhelmed. Now as we learn about some of the serious issues related to the disease (such as injury to the heart) we have somewhat morphed into what you are talking about in terms of fighting a delaying action with the hopes of improved treatments and maybe a vaccine.
What I find most troubling is that I think we all hoped that once you got an area under control, you could carefully open up and sort of resume a semi-normal lifestyle without the disease spiking. Indications are that we may not be able to do that. That as soon as we start to open things up cases start to rise. No doubt the Covid fatigue I posted about is playing a big role in this problem as well. This is especially true of young people who are full of energy and have the list to risk from the disease.
Personally I am in a bit of a funk over this disease. I am just not seeing the path out of this problem right now. I can't say that things will be back to normal in 3 months or 6 months or even a year. The more people I talk to the more I hear people bending or breaking the rules of social distancing. That is not a good sign. Plus the mental strain everyone is under has not been good for anyone.
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 03, 2020, 10:48:21 AM
Treatment isn't really my professional area of focus, but I do try and keep track of the treatments that are out there. I know we have made considerable strides since the disease hit us back in February/March. I can tell you that from my vantage point I am not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel in terms of definitive treatment or a definite date of a vaccine.
It's sort of funny, when this started we were talking about "flattening the cure" and the idea then was to keep hospitals and EMS from being overwhelmed. Now as we learn about some of the serious issues related to the disease (such as injury to the heart) we have somewhat morphed into what you are talking about in terms of fighting a delaying action with the hopes of improved treatments and maybe a vaccine.
What I find most troubling is that I think we all hoped that once you got an area under control, you could carefully open up and sort of resume a semi-normal lifestyle without the disease spiking. Indications are that we may not be able to do that. That as soon as we start to open things up cases start to rise. No doubt the Covid fatigue I posted about is playing a big role in this problem as well. This is especially true of young people who are full of energy and have the list to risk from the disease.
Personally I am in a bit of a funk over this disease. I am just not seeing the path out of this problem right now. I can't say that things will be back to normal in 3 months or 6 months or even a year. The more people I talk to the more I hear people bending or breaking the rules of social distancing. That is not a good sign. Plus the mental strain everyone is under has not been good for anyone.
Rich: Thank you. I agree with all of it and can see how the "funk" can arise. You're certainly not alone. I've read about (and heard from) plenty of people in the health care field who in the same boat.
All I can say is hang in there and continue finding stuff like what you posted above my question, which IMO is an excellent discussion of some of the problems for long-term pandemics.
As for a "definitive treatment" if you hear or read anything I'll look here for it. There may never be one. In fact it's even possible a vaccine (if it ever happens) might precede agreement on definitive treatments for each stage. There are so many variables, IMO it's hard to talk make generalizations about treatment without laying out the patient's specific age, health status and risk factors.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 03, 2020, 11:01:35 AM
Rich: Thank you. I agree with all of it and can see how the "funk" can arise. You're certainly not alone. I've read about (and heard from) plenty of people in the health care field who in the same boat.
All I can say is hang in there and continue finding stuff like what you posted above my question, which IMO is an excellent discussion of some of the problems for long-term pandemics.
As for a "definitive treatment" if you hear or read anything I'll look here for it. There may never be one. In fact it's even possible a vaccine (if it ever happens) might precede agreement on definitive treatments for each stage. There are so many variables, IMO it's hard to talk make generalizations about treatment without laying out the patient's specific age, health status and risk factors.
Bob
What bothers me is I am not even certain that a vaccine will happen. I hope it will and I think the odds are still better, than not, that it will, but I am not certain. What I fear is how long does immunity last. If the vaccine can't provide at least a year's protection (in my opinion) it will not be as helpful as we need it to be. I am also worried about getting enough people to take the vaccine to develop herd immunity.
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 03, 2020, 11:22:44 AM
What bothers me is I am not even certain that a vaccine will happen. I hope it will and I think the odds are still better, than not, that it will, but I am not certain. What I fear is how long does immunity last. If the vaccine can't provide at least a year's protection (in my opinion) it will not be as helpful as we need it to be. I am also worried about getting enough people to take the vaccine to develop herd immunity.
Rich: In addition, the fact that many people are asymptomatic is not helping. I mention this because the radio just told me what I already know.... Doug Peterson has it and is asymptomatic. Yikes. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 03, 2020, 12:08:28 PM
Rich: In addition, the fact that many people are asymptomatic is not helping. I mention this because the radio just told me what I already know.... Doug Peterson has it and is asymptomatic. Yikes. Bob
Here is another fun thing. There is no guarantee that the people who end up being completely asymptomatic actually develop immunity. There is nothing I am aware of that is definitive at this point, but it seems the mild cases may not build up strong immunity. Again, still early
'We're in for a bad and rocky ride:' Ex-WHO doctor who helped eradicate smallpox predicts COVID-19 turmoil for years
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/we-re-in-for-a-bad-and-rocky-ride-ex-who-doctor-who-helped-eradicate-smallpox-predicts-covid-19-turmoil-for-years/ar-BB17wGHU?ocid=msedgdhp
In the back of my mind, I kind of suspected this. Life will be much better than it is now, but also, life as we knew it, may never return, or in the distant future. There will be thousands of people who will not take the vacine and that surely won't help.
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 04, 2020, 12:51:56 PM
Lenn: If Joe Biden wins, this problem will disappear within a week or two (from the media bubble). /sarcasm/ Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 02, 2020, 08:05:08 AM
Notice to all members:
Unless there are serious objections, from now on, posts under this thread should be limited to "pure" health-related issues.
Politically-tinged posts about covid should be made in the thread entitled.... SENSITIVE TOPICS - Readers Beware!
If you put one here by mistake or before seeing this post, no problem. I'll move it, hopefully without making a mess. Thank you all for cooperating.
Bob
PS. It's ok with me (although I don't speak for the other moderators) if you put something borderline here ALONG WITH your reasoning why it belongs here rather than under the other topic.
Rich: I of course will move it to where it belongs. Here's what I intended to post... a question for you....
Please explain for all of us the difference between deaths per case and deaths per 100,000 (the two different ways of reporting - fairly - what's really happening in various countries, states, etc.).
It's a bit confusing, and I really don't believe in simply reporting the number of cases (as some TV stations do - that, IMO, tells us little of importance).
Bob
PS. Also, which means more to you (of the two mentioned first). Thanks.
I know is not Covid related, but I as just typing my last replay and the darn power went out. Just came back. Hope everyone is safe.
Quote from: LennG on August 04, 2020, 01:24:03 PM
I know is not Covid related, but I as just typing my last replay and the darn power went out. Just came back. Hope everyone is safe.
Lenn: Either you misread something above or already erased your own error, but your previous post above is ok here (IMO). Mine is the one that was not, so I moved it to the political topic. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 04, 2020, 01:13:51 PM
Rich: I of course will move it to where it belongs. Here's what I intended to post... a question for you....
Please explain for all of us the difference between deaths per case and deaths per 100,000 (the two different ways of reporting - fairly - what's really happening in various countries, states, etc.).
It's a bit confusing, and I really don't believe in simply reporting the number of cases (as some TV stations do - that, IMO, tells us little of importance).
Bob
PS. Also, which means more to you (of the two mentioned first). Thanks.
Death per cases is just that how many die per known case. It will be affected by the quality of care (the better the care the lower the number will be), the populations that are being infected (the more vulnerable the people infected the higher this number goes) and how well testing is identifying cases (the more cases IDed this number goes down)
Deaths per population is more of a measure of how effective measures have been in terms of saving lives. This number will be affected by the populations being infected (the more vulnerable the population the higher the number), how effective measures to stop the spread are (the less cases will lead to less deaths), and the quality of medical care (the better the care the lower the number).
As someone in public health, the measure that is most meaningful to me is the death per population because ultimately that measures how many lives we failed to protect or how many lives we saved.
U.S. sees 24% jump in COVID deaths in past week
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/u-s-sees-24-jump-in-covid-deaths-in-past-week/ar-BB17BNt0?ocid=msedgdhp
So much for the notion that our death rath is declining
he United States has seen a 9% decrease in new COVID-19 cases over the past week compared to the previous week, a federal official confirmed to CBS News. But in that same period, there has been a 24% increase in deaths compared to the prior 7-day period. The figures are based on data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Data collected by the COVID Tracking Project shows there have been over 1,000 deaths per day most days since July 21, when 1,038 fatalities were reported nationwide. The toll of 1,447 deaths on July 29 was the highest number since mid-May. Deaths have been steadily increasing since the end of June.
This is a picture of the first day of classes at Paulding County Georgia
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eek50zlXsAAIdG4?format=jpg&name=medium)
The student who posted this has since been suspended by the school
Rich: This says children have fewer coronavirus receptors in their noses. https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-05-21-20-intl/h_045ff0a5390267f878680c220f539695
This offers reasons why kids are generally less likely to get infected, and less likely to spread it to others. https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/07/10/coronavirus-why-kids-arent-the-germbags-and-grownups-are/
Yet, "big tech" pulled down Trump's tweet because it supposedly was "in violation of Twitter rules against misinformation" (query: is what Trump said REALLY misinformation?). What's the deal?
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 06, 2020, 12:52:30 PM
Rich: This says children have fewer coronavirus receptors in their noses. https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-05-21-20-intl/h_045ff0a5390267f878680c220f539695
This offers reasons why kids are generally less likely to get infected, and less likely to spread it to others. https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/07/10/coronavirus-why-kids-arent-the-germbags-and-grownups-are/
Yet, "big tech" pulled down Trump's tweet because it supposedly was "in violation of Twitter rules against misinformation" (query: is what Trump said REALLY misinformation?). What's the deal?
Bob
There is a cut off around 9 or 10 years of age. Below that threshold children are less prone to be infected or spread the infection. Above that age they are pretty much like adults when it comes to spreading the virus, but with the younger age meaning their odds of serious complications or death being much lower.
As for Trump's comments, he suggested that young children are "practically immune" according to the reports I heard (I did not hear comments first hand). If he said that, it would be incorrect and dangerous.
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 06, 2020, 12:56:55 PM
There is a cut off around 9 or 10 years of age. Below that threshold children are less prone to be infected or spread the infection. Above that age they are pretty much like adults when it comes to spreading the virus, but with the younger age meaning their odds of serious complications or death being much lower.
As for Trump's comments, he suggested that young children are "practically immune" according to the reports I heard (I did not hear comments first hand). If he said that, it would be incorrect and dangerous.
Rich: Close enough for me. Thanks. Trump's statement is way more wrong than right. I do still believe, though, he intentionally (at times) forces them to "censor" him (his chief purpose for doing that... I'm not sure). Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 06, 2020, 01:19:58 PM
Rich: Close enough for me. Thanks. Trump's statement is way more wrong than right. I do still believe, though, he intentionally (at times) forces them to "censor" him (his chief purpose for doing that... I'm not sure). Bob
In my opinion when you are dealing with a public health crisis deliberately saying something that is dangerously incorrect is worse than accidentally saying it. Considering Trump has many of his followers trained to only believe Trump and no one else, his comments have the potential to cause great harm or death. If he did it to score political points, I just don't know he lives with himself.
That said, I believe it's more likely that Trump is repeated what he believed and may have been told. I could see a scenario where someone was explaining the lower Covid rates in children and Trump saying, "wow, it's like they are practically immune" and the expert agreeing with that claim (who wants to correct the President, and what you say in a briefing is distinctly different than what you say in public as an official/authority.
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 06, 2020, 01:28:34 PM
In my opinion when you are dealing with a public health crisis deliberately saying something that is dangerously incorrect is worse than accidentally saying it. Considering Trump has many of his followers trained to only believe Trump and no one else, his comments have the potential to cause great harm or death. If he did it to score political points, I just don't know he lives with himself.
That said, I believe it's more likely that Trump is repeated what he believed and may have been told. I could see a scenario where someone was explaining the lower Covid rates in children and Trump saying, "wow, it's like they are practically immune" and the expert agreeing with that claim (who wants to correct the President, and what you say in a briefing is distinctly different than what you say in public as an official/authority.
Rich: I don't know either. I'm just saying sometimes he says stuff to divert attention or to start a fight (for whatever reason).
I have no idea about this current statement he made.
I do know that he is well aware of the European countries, most of which have gotten their kids back to school with minimal fuss. As for the results of what they're doing... that remains to be seen.
Bob
A few thoughts about this:
1) this is the benefit of testing, even if you don't have symptoms
2) At 73, he is in a higher risk group, I hope he will be okay
3) This may seem pedantic but if you are exposed to Covid you are quarantined, if you are infected you are isolated (I am surprise this announcement got that basic wording wrong)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EewDGsLXkAY_xh9?format=png&name=medium)
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 06, 2020, 01:32:34 PM
Rich: I don't know either. I'm just saying sometimes he says stuff to divert attention or to start a fight (for whatever reason).
I have no idea about this current statement he made.
I do know that he is well aware of the European countries, most of which have gotten their kids back to school with minimal fuss. As for the results of what they're doing... that remains to be seen.
Bob
The difference between Europe and the US is Europe did it after getting infection rates under control while the US is trying to do it in while the pandemic is still raging in many parts of the country.
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 06, 2020, 12:52:30 PM
Rich: This says children have fewer coronavirus receptors in their noses. https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-05-21-20-intl/h_045ff0a5390267f878680c220f539695
This offers reasons why kids are generally less likely to get infected, and less likely to spread it to others. https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/07/10/coronavirus-why-kids-arent-the-germbags-and-grownups-are/
Yet, "big tech" pulled down Trump's tweet because it supposedly was "in violation of Twitter rules against misinformation" (query: is what Trump said REALLY misinformation?). What's the deal?
Bob
Bob
Don't know if you have grandkids. I have 3 and all are young. I haven't seen them since late February and we are still not ready to entertain them. Regardless of any reports, until everyone, can, with certainty, say that children, that young, are not carriers, I will stay away. Are YOU going to chance getting infected by having your grandkids or any kids, come up and hug you, maybe even cough on you. Sure they will wear masks, but these are kids and masks will come off.
I want to hug them dearly, but we will not, at least, not at this time, until every scientist can say with certainty, that young children are not carriers.
Quote from: LennG on August 06, 2020, 08:23:16 PM
Bob
Don't know if you have grandkids. I have 3 and all are young. I haven't seen them since late February and we are still not ready to entertain them. Regardless of any reports, until everyone, can, with certainty, say that children, that young, are not carriers, I will stay away. Are YOU going to chance getting infected by having your grandkids or any kids, come up and hug you, maybe even cough on you. Sure they will wear masks, but these are kids and masks will come off.
I want to hug them dearly, but we will not, at least, not at this time, until every scientist can say with certainty, that young children are not carriers.
Lenn: I'm no expert but I highly recommend a different standard on which to determine when your next family visit will occur. There will never be unanimity... best you might get is a rough consensus... Bob
End of year death toll estimated at 300,000 in USA by the end of the year? Anyone else see that? I say we not report any future deaths so we can keep the death numbers down /sarcasm/
Quote from: umassgrad on August 07, 2020, 09:44:36 AM
End of year death toll estimated at 300,000 in USA by the end of the year? Anyone else see that? I say we not report any future deaths so we can keep the death numbers down /sarcasm/
umass: Who made the estimate? Was it someone who's been spot-on reliable in the past? Bob
Quote from: umassgrad on August 07, 2020, 09:44:36 AM
End of year death toll estimated at 300,000 in USA by the end of the year? Anyone else see that? I say we not report any future deaths so we can keep the death numbers down /sarcasm/
I wanted to like this, but there is nothing to like about it. Just sad
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 07, 2020, 09:58:16 AM
umass: Who made the estimate? Was it someone who's been spot-on reliable in the past? Bob
Bob
I also saw this on several of the morning news shows (CBS, ABC).
I googled it also and came up with several re[ports of the same thing
https://www.wgbh.org/news/national-news/2020/08/07/300-000-deaths-by-december-9-takeaways-of-the-newest-covid-19-projections
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/coronavirus-updates-model-predicts-300000-us-deaths-by-december-without-masking-up-india-surpasses-2m-cases/ar-BB17GmAS
I also read that if everyone would be wearing masks, we could save over 70,000 lives in that time frame.
Quote from: LennG on August 07, 2020, 12:40:39 PM
Bob
I also saw this on several of the morning news shows (CBS, ABC).
I googled it also and came up with several re[ports of the same thing
https://www.wgbh.org/news/national-news/2020/08/07/300-000-deaths-by-december-9-takeaways-of-the-newest-covid-19-projections
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/coronavirus-updates-model-predicts-300000-us-deaths-by-december-without-masking-up-india-surpasses-2m-cases/ar-BB17GmAS
I also read that if everyone would be wearing masks, we could save over 70,000 lives in that time frame.
Lenn: But I saw Norah O'Donnell's show on CBS Nightly News and they did NOT play the entire clip. I'm not saying CBS never played the whole thing, but I didn't see it. Bob
So lets see what is happening in those States that refuse to have mandatory masks.
Seems school started in Georgia and studens went back with NO mandate that they have to wear masks or have any sort of social distancing. One brave student decided to take a pix of the sudents in the hallway, showing these facts to be so.
So does the principle take action to improve the school, no he suspends the student who took the pix.
HS suspends teen who tweeted photo of hallway packed with maskless studentshttps://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/08/hs-suspends-teen-who-tweeted-photo-of-hallway-packed-with-maskless-students/
Since this has drawn so much outrage, the student has been reinstated, but the rules in the school haven't changed.
QuoteA 15-year-old high school student who posted a viral photo of a crowded school hallway says the school suspended her for five days for allegedly violating a social-media policy. But the school has since backed down and lifted the suspension.
Hannah Watters, a student at North Paulding High School in Dallas, Georgia, posted a photo to Twitter on Tuesday, noting the "jammed" hallways and "10 percent mask rate." Her tweet received 1,800 retweets and 4,500 likes. She also posted a 10-second video of a hallway at the 2,000-student school and says she was suspended around noon the next day.
And when the Superintendent was questioned about policy, he says that the photo is misleading, they were only in the hallway for a brief period of time, to go to their next class. (Like the virus knows this)
And While many students were shown without masks, he wrote that "wearing a mask is a personal choice and there is no practical way to enforce a mandate to wear them."
This student was interviewed on a news show and when she was aksed if chairs and desks were 6 feet apart, she siad they were as they always were, no different.
OH NO, have some balls and tell them, no mask, no school.
We know Cuomo would never put up with this.
Quote from: LennG on August 07, 2020, 12:51:44 PM
So lets see what is happening in those States that refuse to have mandatory masks.
Seems school started in Georgia and studens went back with NO mandate that they have to wear masks or have any sort of social distancing. One brave student decided to take a pix of the sudents in the hallway, showing these facts to be so.
So does the principle take action to improve the school, no he suspends the student who took the pix.
HS suspends teen who tweeted photo of hallway packed with maskless students
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/08/hs-suspends-teen-who-tweeted-photo-of-hallway-packed-with-maskless-students/
Since this has drawn so much outrage, the student has been reinstated, but the rules in the school haven't changed.
And when the Superintendent was questioned about policy, he says that the photo is misleading, they were only in the hallway for a brief period of time, to go to their next class. (Like the virus knows this)
And While many students were shown without masks, he wrote that "wearing a mask is a personal choice and there is no practical way to enforce a mandate to wear them."
This student was interviewed on a news show and when she was aksed if chairs and desks were 6 feet apart, she siad they were as they always were, no different.
OH NO, have some balls and tell them, no mask, no school.
We know Cuomo would never put up with this.
Lenn: Yet he's opening the schools. I say good for him. I (for one) won't seek to chastise him if he takes a tough stance (as you suggest), just so he doesn't change the criteria that he has already established. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 07, 2020, 01:00:59 PM
Lenn: Yet he's opening the schools. I say good for him. I (for one) won't seek to chastise him if he takes a tough stance (as you suggest), just so he doesn't change the criteria that he has already established. Bob
The date supports opening the schools. New York is in very very good shape thanks to the measures put in place by the governor months ago. And Bob, criteria could change as the science on Covid changes constantly. As long as the students and teachers don't interact foolishly with those slackers from Florida, Georgia and other outlying states, New York should remain good.
This is concerning
QuoteSTURGIS, S.D.
US tops 5 million confirmed virus cases, to Europe's alarm
ROME (AP)
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 09, 2020, 11:57:36 AM
US tops 5 million confirmed virus cases, to Europe's alarm
ROME (AP)
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 09, 2020, 12:18:08 PM
Rich: Europe would be better served to mind its own business, as they have done no better or worse. Bob
Population:
United States - 330,000,000
Germany,UK, France,Italy and Spain - 325,000,000 combined
Approximate number of covid tests:
United States - 59,000,000
Euro countries listed above - 41,300,000
Approximate number of covid Deaths:
United States - 158,000
Euro group - 151,000
Deaths per 100,000 population:
UK - 70
Spain - 61
Italy - 58
United States - 48
France - 45
Germany - 11
Bob
PS. These stats are getting a bit long-in-the-tooth but they're approximations anyway (but sufficient to make my point). I have no idea if the comparison is now more or less favorable than it was at the end of June.
Bob,
Stats aside, you can't really seriously think that we've handled this pandemic properly. Or as good as a number of other "first world" nations. Tell me about normalcy please and how far we are from it as opposed to countries in Europe and many in Asia?
Quote from: katkavage on August 09, 2020, 12:26:19 PM
Bob,
Stats aside, you can't really seriously think that we've handled this pandemic properly. Or as good as a number of other "first world" nations. Tell me about normalcy please and how far we are from it as opposed to countries in Europe and many in Asia?
kat: I seriously think the U.S., Europe, the individual governors here, etc. - everyone - did what they thought best. Good? Hardly. Bad? No.
I'm glad I wasn't in charge of anything. A novel virus is a total minefield.
Normalcy: I don't know what that is, but I do know the kids in Europe and Asia are mostly going back to school (or have already done so). I hope we'll do the same.
Generally speaking, I think when this is "all over" the stats will show that despite the wide variety of approaches taken throughout the world, there will not have been much variation in the overall results.*
Unless there's a cure (unlikely), eventually covid will go everywhere, with approximately the same results. What we humans are doing right now, IMO, is merely forestalling the inevitable (while praying for a cure).
Bob
*Footnote: there will, of course, be variations in results based on quality of care, availability of care, etc., but IMO the United States is second to none in either of those categories.
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 09, 2020, 12:18:08 PM
Rich: Europe would be better served to mind its own business, as they have done no better or worse. Bob
Population:
United States - 330,000,000
Germany,UK, France,Italy and Spain - 325,000,000 combined
Approximate number of covid tests:
United States - 59,000,000
Euro countries listed above - 41,300,000
Approximate number of covid Deaths:
United States - 158,000
Euro group - 151,000
Deaths per 100,000 population:
UK - 70
Spain - 61
Italy - 58
United States - 48
France - 45
Germany - 11
Bob
PS. These stats are getting a bit long-in-the-tooth but they're approximations anyway (but sufficient to make my point). I have no idea if the comparison is now more or less favorable than it was at the end of June.
Sadly these numbers are outdated or off (I use World O'meter as my source)
The US is now at 50 deaths per 100,000 (and rising) rather than 48
The UK is actually 69 rather than 70 (even then I rounded up 68.6)
France is 46 rather than 45
The rest of the numbers match up
As for deaths of of these comparable groups
It now stands at
US- 165,260
Europe- 149,867
Of course as we discussed before the US population is significantly younger than the populations of the European nations you selected. Plus, as the article points out the US situation is still dire even with better treatments, better knowledge of the disease, and more PPE. Europe is like the NYC metro area it got hit hard and fast before we had the tools to fight back.
If you want a good comparison, you should compare how upstate NY has weathered this virus. That is a great comparison to many of the parts of the nation that are now dealing with Covid crisises. They had the time and the warning that upstate NY got, the difference was in the leadership.
Thanks. My conclusion is the same.... we've done no worse or better than Europe, generally. As for New York, they have the highest death rate among the 50 states. Here's the rest of what I posted before. Bob
Deaths per 100,000 population (including a few states that have been harshly criticized, which I have steadfastly refused to do):
New York - 167
Belgium - 86
UK - 70
Spain - 61
Italy - 58
Arizona - 53
United States - 48
France - 45
Florida - 34
Texas - 27
Germany - 11
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 09, 2020, 01:09:48 PM
Thanks. My conclusion is the same.... we've done no worse or better than Europe, generally. As for New York, they have the highest death rate among the 50 states. Here's the rest of what I posted before. Bob
Deaths per 100,000 population (including a few states that have been harshly criticized, which I have steadfastly refused to do):
New York - 167
Belgium - 86
UK - 70
Spain - 61
Italy - 58
Arizona - 53
United States - 48
France - 45
Florida - 34
Texas - 27
Germany - 11
Bob,
We have done worse and as time goes by it's getting to be much worse
As for NY, you have to separate out upstate from the city.
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 09, 2020, 01:11:09 PM
Bob,
We have done worse and as time goes by it's getting to be much worse
As for NY, you have to separate out upstate from the city.
Rich: Two opinions in one sentence (not a problem, just an observation). As for NY, Cuomo rules the entire state. I feel bad for any gov ofa state with a HUGE city, since, as we know, dense population = bad news. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 09, 2020, 01:19:24 PM
Rich: Two opinions in one sentence (not a problem, just an observation). As for NY, Cuomo rules the entire state. I feel bad for any gov ofa state with a HUGE city, since, as we know, dense population = bad news. Bob
The NYC metro area had to deal with mass transit and highrise buildings and getting the virus early when there was no PPE or knowledge of the virus or even a treatment
I think there is another number you should be looking at:
Deaths on August 7 (the last day I have all the data)
Spain- 3
UK- 55
Italy- 3
Germany- 2
France- 12
Total- 77
The US- 1290
Those are the numbers that justify the article I posted
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 06, 2020, 09:38:41 AM
This is a picture of the first day of classes at Paulding County Georgia
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eek50zlXsAAIdG4?format=jpg&name=medium)
The student who posted this has since been suspended by the school
and
9 Test Positive for Coronavirus at Georgia High School Where Viral Photo Showed Students Without Masks
North Paulding High School has not specified if they will be closing down after six students and three staff members tested positive for COVID-19
https://people.com/health/9-test-positive-coronavirus-georgia-high-school/
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 09, 2020, 04:22:09 PM
The NYC metro area had to deal with mass transit and highrise buildings and getting the virus early when there was no PPE or knowledge of the virus or even a treatment
I think there is another number you should be looking at:
Deaths on August 7 (the last day I have all the data)
Spain- 3
UK- 55
Italy- 3
Germany- 2
France- 12
Total- 77
The US- 1290
Those are the numbers that justify the article I posted
Rich: It's meaningless to look at a single day. That's why I attempted to post semi-long-term totals. Also, different countries may count differently.
There's a big difference between dying WITH covid and dying FROM covid. We just don't know enough (including how that particular dichotomy will be finally assessed and considered by epidemiologists).
Things change daily. There's little to be learned by checking the score after each play in a game. Once the pandemic has run its course, comparisons will be meaningful, and conclusions can be reached... maybe.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 09, 2020, 04:51:18 PM
Rich: It's meaningless to look at a single day. That's why I attempted to post semi-long-term totals. Also, different countries may count differently.
There's a big difference between dying WITH covid and dying FROM covid. We just don't know enough (including how that particular dichotomy will be finally assessed and considered by epidemiologists).
Things change daily. There's little to be learned by checking the score after each play in a game. Once the pandemic has run its course, comparisons will be meaningful, and conclusions can be reached... maybe.
Bob
Bob,
1) I pulled the data from bar charts and I can tell you it's not like the 7th was an anomaly. That magnitudes greater death rates has been going on for some time now
2) For the overwhelming majority of Covid deaths those two terms are interchangeable. The numbers of patients who have Covid but die of something unrelated is very small
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 09, 2020, 04:59:33 PM
Bob,
1) I pulled the data from bar charts and I can tell you it's not like the 7th was an anomaly. That magnitudes greater death rates has been going on for some time now
2) For the overwhelming majority of Covid deaths those two terms are interchangeable. The numbers of patients who have Covid but die of something unrelated is very small
Rich: Do we know if European countries "count" deaths as we do? I ask because, as you know, there are financial incentives for reporting every possible case in the US as having been caused by covid. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 09, 2020, 05:04:05 PM
Rich: Do we know if European countries "count" deaths as we do? I ask because, as you know, there are financial incentives for reporting every possible case in the US as having been caused by covid. Bob
https://www.cbs19.tv/article/news/health/verify-covid-19-reporting-and-death-certificates/501-cd4f1995-e342-4451-ae90-a814f1ace284
Pass this law along with mandatory mask laws in all states and we would start to actually beat this virus.
QuoteAnyone who assaults an employee enforcing the use of masks can now be prosecuted as aggravated battery in Illinois.
Gov. J.B. Pritzker passed a law last week that adds a penalty for assaulting a worker who's "conveying public health guidance" -- that is, telling patrons of a business to wear a mask or maintain social distancing. In Illinois, aggravated battery is usually a felony.
The law went into effect immediately.
"This provision sends the message that it's vitally important for workers to be both respected and protected while serving on the front lines," the governor's office said in a statement on the new law.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/10/us/assault-workers-mask-law-illinois-trnd/index.html
QuoteAnyone who assaults an employee enforcing the use of masks can now be prosecuted as aggravated battery in Illinois.
Gov. J.B. Pritzker passed a law last week that adds a penalty for assaulting a worker who's "conveying public health guidance" -- that is, telling patrons of a business to wear a mask or maintain social distancing. In Illinois, aggravated battery is usually a felony.
The law went into effect immediately.
"This provision sends the message that it's vitally important for workers to be both respected and protected while serving on the front lines," the governor's office said in a statement on the new law.
Unless performed during the commission of riotous compassion towards fellow Americans.
Speaking of Chicago. Things are going well in the Windy City in the last couple days.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-downtown-looting-20200810-3zwa3b7zzrc5vdyb4qjqywrjvu-story.html
This riot seems to be purely for shopping purposes as the rioters appear to have shown up with bags and U-Hauls. Yep...just a good ol' spontaneuous "Free $hit" riot.
Quote from: jimmyz on August 10, 2020, 04:15:13 PM
Unless performed during the commission of riotous compassion towards fellow Americans.
Speaking of Chicago. Things are going well in the Windy City in the last couple days.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-downtown-looting-20200810-3zwa3b7zzrc5vdyb4qjqywrjvu-story.html
This riot seems to be purely for shopping purposes as the rioters appear to have shown up with bags. Yep...just a good ol' spontaneuous "Free $hit" riot.
Please spare us your anti-American Trump rhetoric
This is why we need this law in NJ
Police: Randolph Man Refusing To Fix Face Mask Scalds QuickChek Cashier With Hot Coffee
https://dailyvoice.com/new-jersey/morris/police-fire/police-randolph-man-refusing-to-fix-face-mask-scalds-quickchek-cashier-with-hot-coffee/792244/
I have to confess, after I thought about it they were correct
We lack the data to understand how N.J. students might spread COVID-19 in schools, experts sayQuoteLindsay Salaj tested positive for the coronavirus in later April. Her daughter, Vienne, also had a fever, but her pediatrician advised against giving the 5-year-old the unpleasant nasopharyngeal test.
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 11, 2020, 10:47:29 AM
I have to confess, after I thought about it they were correct
We lack the data to understand how N.J. students might spread COVID-19 in schools, experts say
MORE
https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2020/08/we-dont-have-the-data-to-understand-how-njs-school-kids-might-spread-coronavirus.html
Rich: You're right.
Since every school district might have a different plan and definitely has different details in implementing its plan, we don't know much (in the grand scheme of things).
This is why I continue emphasizing (1) it's too early to total the "final score" in comparing various responses; and (2) it's generally unfair to criticize of chief executives, all of whom are walking a tightrope without a net.
Bop
New York
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 11, 2020, 11:27:27 AM
Rich: You're right.
Since every school district might have a different plan and definitely has different details in implementing its plan, we don't know much (in the grand scheme of things).
This is why I continue emphasizing (1) it's too early to total the "final score" in comparing various responses; and (2) it's generally unfair to criticize of chief executives, all of whom are walking a tightrope without a net.
Bop
My point was more that I (like many) saw little to no reason to be testing children. This article points out the error in that thinking. Had we been testing children all along we would have critical data that would be very helpful in the debate about school openings. Sometimes I forget that testing is often for the benefit of public health knowledge rather than the immediate treatment (that I always know) or prevention of spread of a disease.
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 11, 2020, 11:36:44 AM
My point was more that I (like many) saw little to no reason to be testing children. This article points out the error in that thinking. Had we been testing children all along we would have critical data that would be very helpful in the debate about school openings. Sometimes I forget that testing is often for the benefit of public health knowledge rather than the immediate treatment (that I always know) or prevention of spread of a disease.
Rich: Don't forget.... IMO the circumstances changed. Some earlier expert views were expressed during the reality that unlimited testing was not available (so the issue was who to test first).
As much more testing became available (and more was learned) the issue changed to whether or not to test children.
Eventually, we'll confront the question of whether everyone should be tested periodically (as a matter of general principle). This "stage" could of course be avoided if an effective vaccine (or cure) ever emerges.
Bob
Here is another less than ideal situation with school openings
Update: 826 students under quarantine in Cherokee after possible COVID-19 exposures
| 2 hours ago
By Maureen Downey, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
In the six days that Cherokee County schools have been in session, the north Georgia district has had to direct 826 students to quarantine due to possible exposure to COVID-19, along with 42 teachers.
In following health guidelines, districts inform parents when a student has has close contract with -- including sitting nearby -- someone who tests positive for COVID-19 and advises 14 day quarantines at home. Most of the exposures to students have come from classmates, although a few cases involve teachers and staff who tested positive.
This is an outstanding review of the US Covid timeline
As the COVID 19 goes on and on, I am struck by one reality.
People point to Europe (Asia etc) as a success as compared to us, the Federal government's set the standards and they seemingly work (in some cases).
These same people also seem to forget the cultural aspect of the countries. England, Italy, Germany, Spain and France to name a few, are countries more willing to acquiesce to a central government control than the US. Mussolini, Hitler, Franco anyone? All these countries have had a dictator or King / Queen running the country. We haven't.
They are more liable to comply with national edicts. They have in the past and will in the future. I have seen it first hand.
IMO you can not compare us (USA) to anyone else.
The US is very different, from before the Revolutionary war - through the 60's to now, we don't bow down to the "man" as a rule.
IMO, people need to look at the response to COVID 19 (from citizens) through this prospective.
Quote from: philo43 on August 11, 2020, 04:35:10 PM
As the COVID 19 goes on and on, I am struck by one reality.
People point to Europe (Asia etc) as a success as compared to us, the Federal government's set the standards and they seemingly work (in some cases).
These same people also seem to forget the cultural aspect of the countries. England, Italy, Germany, Spain and France to name a few, are countries more willing to acquiesce to a central government control than the US. Mussolini, Hitler, Franco anyone? All these countries have had a dictator or King / Queen running the country. We haven't.
They are more liable to comply with national edicts. They have in the past and will in the future. I have seen it first hand.
IMO you can not compare us (USA) to anyone else.
The US is very different, from before the Revolutionary war - through the 60's to now, we don't bow down to the "man" as a rule.
IMO, people need to look at the response to COVID 19 (from citizens) through this prospective.
I don't know about that. I have seen people on this board support Trump sending his secret police/storm troopers to attack Americans in DC, Portland and other cities.
Can you stop stalking me - your obsession is unhealthy - to use your own words words /sarcasm/
Quote from: philo43 on August 11, 2020, 04:58:50 PM
Can you stop stalking me - your obsession is unhealthy - to use your own words words /sarcasm/
When you behave yourself I will respond to posts you put on my board. When you act like a stalker I will call you out. Of course seeing how this discussion is on thread I started and heavily participate in, you might want to avoid your blatantly hypocritical accusations.
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 11, 2020, 04:52:39 PM
I don't know about that. I have seen people on this board support Trump sending his secret police/storm troopers to attack Americans in DC, Portland and other cities.
Since you had to reply to me, I am going to to reply to you
Let's see we have at the most 5- 10, at the outside, (out of 300 million plus people) people on this board that supposedly support Trump and what ever you claim, and you are comparing it to all the the countries that I listed?
Wow. what a stretch to condemn Trump supporters. Get your facts correct. Please, this is an embarrassment.
Quote from: philo43 on August 11, 2020, 05:12:14 PM
Since you had to reply to me, I am going to to reply to you
Let's see we have at the most 5- 10, at the outside, (out of 300 million plus people) people on this board that supposedly support Trump and what ever you claim, and you are comparing it to all the the countries that I listed?
Wow. what a stretch to condemn Trump supporters. Get your facts correct. Please, this is an embarrassment.
Are you the only 3-5 Trump supporters in America that supported the central government's attacks on our citizens?
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 11, 2020, 05:19:38 PM
Are you the only 3-5 Trump supporters in America that supported the central government's attacks on our citizens?
As you stated quite emphatically :
"When you behave yourself
I will respond to posts you put on my board. When you act like a stalker I will call you out. Of course seeing how this discussion is on thread I started and heavily participate in, you might want to avoid your blatantly hypocritical accusations."
So basically it is my way or the highway. Not an area for free discussion, only those that agree with you
Are you obsessed, can't you not stop responding to me? Same as you asked me. But of course, in your case it it is different.
Quote from: philo43 on August 11, 2020, 07:04:28 PM
Are you obsessed, can't you not stop responding to me? Same as you asked me. But of course, in your case it it is different.
IMO[/b] you are so wrapped your ideology, you can not see anything else.
I will not respond, I am on my best behavior as I can. You don't have to worry about that do you?
Mark,
I truly feel sorry for you. Your unhealthy obsession with me that keeps you from being able to talk about a topic of any thread and not changing the topic to you talking about me. Do you spend all your time thinking about me? I mean every topic even Covid you circle around to talking about me. That is not good and that is not normal.
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 11, 2020, 07:14:16 PM
Mark,
I truly feel sorry for you. Your unhealthy obsession with me that keeps you from being able to talk about a topic of any thread and not changing the topic to you talking about me. Do you spend all your time thinking about me? I mean every topic even Covid you circle around to talking about me. That is not good and that is not normal.
Who is Mark? - yet wrong again
edit to add:
what is sad, I have posted my full name and where I live on this page over the last 6 months, but you were to ignorant to pick up on it.
Report: At Least 10 Big Ten Football Players Have Heart Condition Myocarditis
Source: Bleacher Report
One major factor that led to the Big Ten announcing the postponement of the 2020 fall sports season, including college football, was the long-term effects of the coronavirus.
According to Nicole Auerbach of The Athletic, the conference is aware of at least 10 players who have the rare heart condition myocarditis, which reportedly has a high prevalence in people who have had COVID-19.
This is considered an "alarmingly high number" of the rare condition caused by viruses and it has caused decision-makers across college athletics to reconsider their views, per Auerbach.
Boston Red Sox pitcher Eduardo Rodriguez is out for the MLB season because of myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart, which occurred after he contracted the coronavirus.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2904115-report-at-least-10-big-ten-football-players-have-heart-condition-myocarditis
Here's a different way to divide up and analyze covid cases. The previous statistical analysis I posted compared results in Western Europe against those in the United States.
The stats below compare numbers in Red States vs Blue States (as determined by which party holds the Governor's Mansion and therefore controls public health policy).
Red States (Republican Governors) - 56,813 deaths (about 376 deaths per million people).
Blue States (Democrat Governors) - 106,146 deaths (about 596 deaths per million people).
To integrate these with some of the previous stats, just out of curiosity, here's what you get:
Death Rates Per Million People
UK - 685
Spain - 611
Blue States - 590
Italy - 582
France - 465
Red States - 375
Germany -111
Warnings:
(1) These numbers change daily, and the some are trending up while others are trending down.
(2) The covid "cycle of destruction" appears to be somewhere between the middle of its course and the end, but no one knows exactly where it is.
(3) I suspect that population density should be considered in analyzing the data, because proximity of people to each other increases the odds of transmitting the disease.
(4) In case you're interested, here's a link that shows state population densities: https://www.statista.com/statistics/183588/population-density-in-the-federal-states-of-the-us/
Bob
I think a big part of the equation is when outbreaks hit. There has been progress in treatment of the virus. States that had spikes after May have the benefit of a treatment plan. Having it hit a place like NYC first was a worst, predictable scenario.
I think dividing the states that was serves no purpose scientifically.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on August 12, 2020, 01:31:11 AM
I think a big part of the equation is when outbreaks hit. There has been progress in treatment of the virus. States that had spikes after May have the benefit of a treatment plan. Having it hit a place like NYC first was a worst, predictable scenario.
I think dividing the states that was serves no purpose scientifically.
Unconn,
The study Bob presented is not sound from a statistical or public health perspective.
The majority of cons fall into one of two groups- the get rich/make money and miracle cures
Those cons work because people want to believe in whatever is being sold, which makes it much easier to fool them.
There are people who desperately want to believe that the GOP/Trump is not responsible for 10s of thousands of needless deaths. For those people, this statistical slight of hand will be more than welcome and certainly will not be scrutinized (where it would quickly crumble)
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 12, 2020, 12:18:33 AM
Here's a different way to divide up and analyze covid cases. The previous statistical analysis I posted compared results in Western Europe against those in the United States.
The stats below compare numbers in Red States vs Blue States (as determined by which party holds the Governor's Mansion and therefore controls public health policy).
Red States (Republican Governors) - 56,813 deaths (about 376 deaths per million people).
Blue States (Democrat Governors) - 106,146 deaths (about 596 deaths per million people).
To integrate these with some of the previous stats, just out of curiosity, here's what you get:
Death Rates Per Million People
UK - 685
Spain - 611
Blue States - 590
Italy - 582
France - 465
Red States - 375
Germany -111
Warnings:
(1) These numbers change daily, and the some are trending up while others are trending down.
(2) The covid "cycle of destruction" appears to be somewhere between the middle of its course and the end, but no one knows exactly where it is.
(3) I suspect that population density should be considered in analyzing the data, because proximity of people to each other increases the odds of transmitting the disease.
(4) In case you're interested, here's a link that shows state population densities: https://www.statista.com/statistics/183588/population-density-in-the-federal-states-of-the-us/
Bob
Unless people are being resurrected, death rates measured this way can only go up.
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 12, 2020, 07:33:22 AM
Unconn,
The study Bob presented is not sound from a statistical or public health perspective.
The majority of cons fall into one of two groups- the get rich/make money and miracle cures
Those cons work because people want to believe in whatever is being sold, which makes it much easier to fool them.
There are people who desperately want to believe that the GOP/Trump is not responsible for 10s of thousands of needless deaths. For those people, this statistical slight of hand will be more than welcome and certainly will not be scrutinized (where it would quickly crumble)
Rich: :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
I don't see any criticism of the numbers I used.
They are REAL numbers, not political statements as in your post above.
What happened to science? There's nothing more scientific than numbers.
Instead of dealing with the numbers and the reality, you issue a "veiled" attack on the person who made the post.
Are you accusing me of conning you?
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 12, 2020, 08:28:26 AM
Rich: :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
I don't see any criticism of the numbers I used.
They are REAL numbers, not political statements as in your post above.
What happened to science? There's nothing more scientific than numbers.
Instead of dealing with the numbers and the reality, you issue a "veiled" attack on the person who made the post.
Are you accusing me of conning you?
Bob
Bob,
We have gone over the numbers before, so I know you are aware of the flaw. You are using static numbers in a dynamic situation. You were shown that the US currently has a death rate in excess of 10 times the comparable European population. The red state blue state thing would show a similar disparity. That is a fact
Frankly, this sound criminally neglegent
'This is no longer a debate': Florida sheriff bans deputies, visitors from wearing masks
Source: Washington Post
August 12, 2020 at 2:32 a.m. CDT
On Tuesday, as Florida set a daily record for covid-19 deaths, Marion County Sheriff Billy Woods prohibited his deputies from wearing masks at work. His order, which also applies to visitors to the sheriff
Read this article, if you want to learn about some of the things that really concern me about this outbreak
https://www.statnews.com/2020/08/12/after-covid19-mental-neurological-effects-smolder/
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 12, 2020, 08:32:13 AM
Bob,
We have gone over the numbers before, so I know you are aware of the flaw. You are using static numbers in a dynamic situation. You were shown that the US currently has a death rate in excess of 10 times the comparable European population. The red state blue state thing would show a similar disparity. That is a fact
Rich: First, there is no flaw. Those are the number from Worldometer. I just did the addition, multiplication and division to produce the chart.
Second, I specifically warned in my post that "the numbers change daily. Some are trending up, others are trending down."
Last, your post (in bold type above) should be qualified to explain use of the term "death rate." There are at least three types of death rate stats. I used death rate per million people, which IMO is the best measure.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 12, 2020, 09:04:08 AM
Rich: First, there is no flaw. Those are the number from Worldometer. I just did the addition, multiplication and division to produce the chart.
Second, I specifically warned in my post that "the numbers change daily. Some are trending up, others are trending down."
Last, your post (in bold type above) should be qualified to explain use of the term "death rate." There are at least three types of death rate stats. I used death rate per million people, which IMO is the best measure.
Bob
Bob,
Your little exercise reminds me of a project I had at work some years back (when tablets like the I-Pad were first coming out). There was an entity that was offering grants to public health agencies for emergency communications equipment. One of my bosses thought that grant would be a great way to get I-pads for all the health departments in my county and he asked me to write up a grant proposal that would justify it.
Well never one to not tackle an assignment I went to work trying to justify that an I-pad could be considered an emergency communications device. If I have to say so myself, I did a really good job on the proposal (considering I was in essence creating a bit of fiction). I told my boss this- If the entity wants to give the county health departments I-pads this grant I wrote would justify them doing that. On the surface, if you read my proposal it sounded pretty good. I qualified it that if it's a competitive situation or if they people issuing the grant really study and think about what I wrote it would quickly break down as request that was all smoke and mirrors and not grounded in solid reason.
Interestingly enough, while we didn't get that grant a few months later that same entity was able to get a grant from somewhere else that got I-Pads for all the health departments in the state. While I can't prove it, I am pretty sure the entity I submitted my proposal to, cribbed it for their own grant to get I-Pads (the timing is perfect and as I said, I made a pretty good case)
So that's how I see your study, Bob. If you want to believe Trump and the GOP haven't done a terrible job with Covid, your report will be a great justification for that belief. However, if you really want to get to the truth or you are not coming into the situation with a desire to belive there hasn't been negligence on the part of Trump and the GOP your report (like my I-pad emergency communication device claim) quickly breaks down.
Here is a better exercise,
NJ, with Covid under control, is quarantining travelers from high Covid states. How many of the high Covid states are red states?
As of Tuesday, August 11, the following states and territories meet the criteria stated above: Alabama; Arkansas; Arizona; California; Florida; Georgia; Hawaii; Iowa; Idaho; Indiana; Illinois; Kansas; Kentucky; Louisiana; Maryland; Minnesota; Missouri; Mississippi; Montana; North Carolina; North Dakota; Nebraska; Nevada; Oklahoma; South Carolina; South Dakota; Tennessee; Texas; Utah; Virginia; Wisconsin; Puerto Rico; and the Virgin Islands.
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 12, 2020, 09:20:02 AM
Bob,
Your little exercise reminds me of a project I had at work some years back (when tablets like the I-Pad were first coming out). There was an entity that was offering grants to public health agencies for emergency communications equipment. One of my bosses thought that grant would be a great way to get I-pads for all the health departments in my county and he asked me to write up a grant proposal that would justify it.
Well never one to not tackle an assignment I went to work trying to justify that an I-pad could be considered an emergency communications device. If I have to say so myself, I did a really good job on the proposal (considering I was in essence creating a bit of fiction). I told my boss this- If the entity wants to give the county health departments I-pads this grant I wrote would justify them doing that. On the surface, if you read my proposal it sounded pretty good. I qualified it that if it's a competitive situation or if they people issuing the grant really study and think about what I wrote it would quickly break down as request that was all smoke and mirrors and not grounded in solid reason.
Interestingly enough, while we didn't get that grant a few months later that same entity was able to get a grant from somewhere else that got I-Pads for all the health departments in the state.
So that's how I see your study, Bob. If you want to believe Trump and the GOP haven't done a terrible job with Covid, your report will be a great justification for that belief. However, if you really want to get to the truth or you are not coming into the situation with a desire to belive there hasn't been negligence on the part of Trump and the GOP your report (like my I-pad emergency communication device claim) quickly breaks down. While I can't prove it, I am pretty sure the entity I submitted my proposal to, cribbed it for their own grant to get I-Pads (the timing is perfect and as I said, I made a pretty good case)
Rich: I think the Trump administration did no better or worse than any of the Governors.
I'm not trying to convince myself (or anyone else) of anything. The numbers speak for themselves.
Personally, I wouldn't draw a conclusion (other than a conclusion about the day on which those numbers were generated).
Bob
PS. I'll try to get time to do it again in about a month or two and see if they change, and in which direction.
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 12, 2020, 09:40:14 AM
Rich: I think the Trump administration did no better or worse than any of the Governors.
I'm not trying to convince myself (or anyone else) of anything. The numbers speak for themselves.
Personally, I wouldn't draw a conclusion (other than a conclusion about the day on which those numbers were generated).
Bob
PS. I'll try to get time to do it again in about a month or two and see if they change, and in which direction.
Bob,
I see you posted this before I added this. If you want to get a feel for what is really happening, break down this list NJ created. NJ currently is one of the few states that has Covid under control. To try and keep it that way they are quarantining travelers from high risk states. Of this list 31 states, how many are red states?
QuoteThe travel advisory applies to any person arriving from a state or territory with a positive test rate higher than 10 per 100,000 residents or a state with a 10 percent or higher positivity rate over a 7-day rolling average.
As of Tuesday, August 11, the following states and territories meet the criteria stated above: Alabama; Arkansas; Arizona; California; Florida; Georgia; Hawaii; Iowa; Idaho; Indiana; Illinois; Kansas; Kentucky; Louisiana; Maryland; Minnesota; Missouri; Mississippi; Montana; North Carolina; North Dakota; Nebraska; Nevada; Oklahoma; South Carolina; South Dakota; Tennessee; Texas; Utah; Virginia; Wisconsin; Puerto Rico; and the Virgin Islands.
Coronavirus in Europe: Infections surge in France, Germany and Spain
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53747852
"More than 1,200 cases were reported in Germany in the past 24 hours. Officials said the rise was due, in part, to people returning from holidays.
It came as Germany warned against non-essential trips to parts of Spain.
Meanwhile, France had 2,524 new cases in 24 hours, the highest daily rise since its lockdown was lifted in May."
......
"Spain is facing the worst coronavirus infection rate in Western Europe. It recorded 1,418 new infections in its latest daily count on Tuesday and said there were 675 "active outbreaks" in the country.
Salvador Macip, an expert in health sciences at Catalonia's Open University, told AFP news agency the country was at a "critical moment".
"We are right at a point where things can get better or worse. This means we have to pull out all the stops to curb outbreaks before they become more serious," he said.
In total, Spain has recorded more than 326,000 cases - the highest number in Western Europe and the 11th highest in the world."
Quote from: philo43 on August 13, 2020, 10:52:23 AM
Coronavirus in Europe: Infections surge in France, Germany and Spain
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53747852
"More than 1,200 cases were reported in Germany in the past 24 hours. Officials said the rise was due, in part, to people returning from holidays.
It came as Germany warned against non-essential trips to parts of Spain.
Meanwhile, France had 2,524 new cases in 24 hours, the highest daily rise since its lockdown was lifted in May."
......
"Spain is facing the worst coronavirus infection rate in Western Europe. It recorded 1,418 new infections in its latest daily count on Tuesday and said there were 675 "active outbreaks" in the country.
Salvador Macip, an expert in health sciences at Catalonia's Open University, told AFP news agency the country was at a "critical moment".
"We are right at a point where things can get better or worse. This means we have to pull out all the stops to curb outbreaks before they become more serious," he said.
In total, Spain has recorded more than 326,000 cases - the highest number in Western Europe and the 11th highest in the world."
To give those daily numbers some context, the US had over 50,500 new cases yesterday
The number of deaths in the United States through July 2020 is 8% to 12% higher than it would have been if the coronavirus pandemic had never happened. That
Quote from: Ron in NJ on August 12, 2020, 08:20:36 AM
Unless people are being resurrected, death rates measured this way can only go up.
Ron: A great point that whizzed right past me the first time.... glad I looked again. Technically, though, people are born every day and in some countries the birth rate is higher than the death rate. Bob
Interesting take on playing football in a bubble
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more-sports/infectious-disease-expert-warns-against-playing-football-in-non-bubble-pleads-for-sports-leaders-to-confront-governors/vi-BB17VJEz?ocid=msedgdhp
It does make a lot of sense.
Pretty interesting arguement about masks and who wears them and why
'I really don't care, do U?' How the act of refusing to wear a mask became the new symbol of American fear
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/i-really-don-t-care-do-u-how-the-act-of-refusing-to-wear-a-mask-became-the-new-symbol-of-american-fear/ar-BB17VLQH?ocid=msedgntp
I kind of agree with just about everything the author says and I feel he was being pretty even handed on it.
What I do feel and I don't feel this way because of Trump or my political leanings, I do feel what most science and doctors have been preaching, that wearing a mask will help defeat the virus.
Since I do feel this way, it just makes sense ot me to blame Trump for so many people not wanting to wear a mask and prolonging this virus and the many needless deaths it has caused. If Trump had bought into the theory of wearing masks to end this, once and for all, there would be no red/blue anything about wearing a mask. But, since Trump, the person, thinks he knows more than anyone else, he decided, by no one's advice but his own thoughts, that the virus was nothiong serious and it will be gone by Easter. That alone set the tone for the now red--don't wear a mask, and the blue--wear one to protect others.
IMVHO to anyone that thinks Trump has done an adequete job handeling this pandemic, they are just dead wrong.
The CDC issued a dire warning for the fall
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-coronavirus-the-cdc-issued-a-dire-warning-for-the-fall/ar-BB17UdHR?ocid=msedgdhp
top federal health official is issuing a dire warning: Follow recommended coronavirus measures or risk having the worst fall in US public health history.
For your country right now and for the war that we're in against Covid, I'm asking you to do four simple things: wear a mask, social distance, wash your hands and be smart about crowds," said Dr. Robert Redfield, director of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
"I'm not asking some of America to do it," he told WebMD. "We all gotta do it."
Without following the recommendations, this could be "the worst fall, from a public health perspective, we've ever had," he said.
Quote from: LennG on August 13, 2020, 07:47:53 PM
The CDC issued a dire warning for the fall
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-coronavirus-the-cdc-issued-a-dire-warning-for-the-fall/ar-BB17UdHR?ocid=msedgdhp
top federal health official is issuing a dire warning: Follow recommended coronavirus measures or risk having the worst fall in US public health history.
For your country right now and for the war that we're in against Covid, I'm asking you to do four simple things: wear a mask, social distance, wash your hands and be smart about crowds," said Dr. Robert Redfield, director of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
"I'm not asking some of America to do it," he told WebMD. "We all gotta do it."
Without following the recommendations, this could be "the worst fall, from a public health perspective, we've ever had," he said.
That's the wrong website, Len.
It was actually from Fox News ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Don't check it - just trust me and wear a mask! :ok:
Quote from: LennG on August 13, 2020, 06:37:29 PM
Pretty interesting arguement about masks and who wears them and why
'I really don't care, do U?' How the act of refusing to wear a mask became the new symbol of American fear
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/i-really-don-t-care-do-u-how-the-act-of-refusing-to-wear-a-mask-became-the-new-symbol-of-american-fear/ar-BB17VLQH?ocid=msedgntp
I kind of agree with just about everything the author says and I feel he was being pretty even handed on it.
What I do feel and I don't feel this way because of Trump or my political leanings, I do feel what most science and doctors have been preaching, that wearing a mask will help defeat the virus.
Since I do feel this way, it just makes sense ot me to blame Trump for so many people not wanting to wear a mask and prolonging this virus and the many needless deaths it has caused. If Trump had bought into the theory of wearing masks to end this, once and for all, there would be no red/blue anything about wearing a mask. But, since Trump, the person, thinks he knows more than anyone else, he decided, by no one's advice but his own thoughts, that the virus was nothiong serious and it will be gone by Easter. That alone set the tone for the now red--don't wear a mask, and the blue--wear one to protect others.
IMVHO to anyone that thinks Trump has done an adequete job handeling this pandemic, they are just dead wrong.
I separate them into two groups
Good patriotic Americans who care about their nation. Since they care about their nation they will do what it takes to protect our nation and our people
Bad self centered people- These are the ones that often wrap themselves up in our flag but in reality hate our nation. Their philosophy is, "ask not what I can do for my Country, as what my country can do for me"
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 14, 2020, 07:42:30 AM
I separate them into two groups
Good patriotic Americans who care about their nation. Since they care about their nation they will do what it takes to protect our nation and our people
Bad self centered people- These are the ones that often wrap themselves up in our flag but in reality hate our nation. Their philosophy is, "ask not what I can do for my Country, as what my country can do for me"
Rich,
I generally roll with you but it's definitive and divisive categories like this that I can't support.
It's like you're either an Eli lover or Eli hater. There's no room for anything else.
Everyone has different priorities and motivations. Just because they differ doesn't make them bad.
Quote from: T200 on August 14, 2020, 07:49:14 AM
Rich,
I generally roll with you but it's definitive and divisive categories like this that I can't support.
It's like you're either an Eli lover or Eli hater. There's no room for anything else.
Everyone has different priorities and motivations. Just because they differ doesn't make them bad.
Sorry, you feel this way. Tim, I am a product of my upbringing. I had two parents who were good people and cared about others, and both of them were volunteers (Plus, my father served in the Airforce). They taught me right and wrong and how I should behave as a person. I was also raised Catholic and that religious teaching was that being a good moral person required sacrifice and that you are your bother's keeper. From that upbringing, no amount of political bull shiite is going to make me think that you are anything but a bad self-centered person when you refuse to deal with a minor inconvenience to protect the lives of family, friends, neighbors, and fellow citizens.
That sense of duty to others and nation is what motived me to devote 35 years of my life to volunteering to help my community. It is what motivated me to risk my life for 3 months doing Covid testing.
Sometimes in life, right and wrong are not all that complicated. This, my friend, is one of those times. I think it's noble of you not to want to hurt the feelings of others, but I believe it's nobler to try and not physically harm others. I guess you could try the ignorance defense for the anti-mask people, but frankly, I consider most of those in the willful ignorance category.
I will say it again, there are issues where there is right and there is wrong and this is one of them. Not wearing a mask is wrong and those that refuse to wear one are bad people. Priorities or beliefs don't change that.
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 14, 2020, 08:49:22 AM
Sorry, you feel this way. Tim, I am a product of my upbringing. I had two parents who were good people and cared about others, and both of them were volunteers (Plus, my father served in the Airforce). They taught me right and wrong and how I should behave as a person. I was also raised Catholic and that religious teaching was that being a good moral person required sacrifice and that you are your bother's keeper. From that upbringing, no amount of political bull shiite is going to make me think that you are anything but a bad self-centered person when you refuse to deal with a minor inconvenience to protect the lives of family, friends, neighbors, and fellow citizens.
That sense of duty to others and nation is what motived me to devote 35 years of my life to volunteering to help my community. It is what motivated me to risk my life for 3 months doing Covid testing.
Sometimes in life, right and wrong are not all that complicated. This, my friend, is one of those times. I think it's noble of you not to want to hurt the feelings of others, but I believe it's nobler to try and not physically harm others. I guess you could try the ignorance defense for the anti-mask people, but frankly, I consider most of those in the willful ignorance category.
I get where you're coming from when it comes to public safety and doing what's best for the communities in which we live.
I don't remember who recently used the "hammer approach" analogy but it's appropriate here. I understand you want to reach people to motivate and convince them to do what's best for the greater good. Shaming works on some people, not all. Guilt-tripping works on some, not all.
There's a difference between holding someone accountable and condemning them. No one likes to be condemned. Speech is powerful. I can't remember where I heard it but I remember this from years ago: "Use your words to influence people in such a way that if you tell them to 'go to hell' they will look forward to the trip."
Quote from: T200 on August 14, 2020, 09:05:52 AM
I get where you're coming from when it comes to public safety and doing what's best for the communities in which we live.
I don't remember who recently used the "hammer approach" analogy but it's appropriate here. I understand you want to reach people to motivate and convince them to do what's best for the greater good. Shaming works on some people, not all. Guilt-tripping works on some, not all.
There's a difference between holding someone accountable and condemning them. No one likes to be condemned. Speech is powerful. I can't remember where I heard it but I remember this from years ago: "Use your words to influence people in such a way that if you tell them to 'go to hell' they will look forward to the trip."
Tim,
I get what you are saying, but I am not trying to win anyone over (in fact to the best of my knowledge everyone posting on this forum says they wear a mask). Since there is no one to "reach", I see no point in covering up or sugar-coating the cold harsh truth.
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 14, 2020, 09:16:44 AM
Tim,
I get what you are saying, but I am not trying to win anyone over (in fact to the best of my knowledge everyone posting on this forum says they wear a mask). Since there is no one to "reach", I see no point in covering up or sugar-coating the cold harsh truth.
Fair enough. :ok:
Myself, and again, no political act to push, I simply do not understand the reasoning for people NOT to wear a mask except to sort of protest something. Basically everyone agrees that wearing a mask is helpful, does that not take precedence over a right not to wear one?
We, as a country, need to stand together, yet now we are divided over masks. To me this is ludicrous. What kind of statement are you making by not wearing one, that you have rights. What about my right not to inhale your germs?
Same as cigarettes, my rights as a non smoker are more important than your right to light up whenever you feel like. It's the good of the many over the right of a few that makes this country strong.
Sorry but Trump has sought to divide again, and now wearing a mask has become political when it really shouldn't.
I am old. When I go out we always wear a mask. We try to be so careful about everything. We change clothes after going out, we wash all the time. We wash off everything we buy in the market, the mail, everything. Yet, why do my rights mean nothing to some who think they are cool by not wearing a mask and then sneezing in public. Tell me how anyone can rationalize that this is a good thing and some one's rights? Why do I have to stay in, hunker down and be scared of everything because some people think THEIR rights are bing negated?
Again, if Trump has come out and advocated wearing a mask right away, had he listened to his medical people once they saw that wearing a mask helps save lives, does anyone think anyone would be out there protesting wearing one? Just the stupidity and stubbornness of one man which brought us to this situation.
Doctors see rise in limb-threatening blood clots during COVID-19 crisis
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/doctors-see-rise-in-limb-threatening-blood-clots-during-covid-19-crisis/ar-BB180iGs?ocid=msedgdhp
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 16, 2020, 09:19:48 AM
Doctors see rise in limb-threatening blood clots during COVID-19 crisis
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/doctors-see-rise-in-limb-threatening-blood-clots-during-covid-19-crisis/ar-BB180iGs?ocid=msedgdhp
Rich: It's not clear to me whether the "rise" is due to the disease itself, or a side-effect of the treatment (i.e., medicines) being given to treat the disease. Maybe they still don't know for sure. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 16, 2020, 12:32:28 PM
Rich: It's not clear to me whether the "rise" is due to the disease itself, or a side-effect of the treatment (i.e., medicines) being given to treat the disease. Maybe they still don't know for sure. Bob
Clotting was an issue before the use of various drugs. Plus, I am not aware of any of the drugs being used for treatment having clotting as a side affect
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 14, 2020, 07:42:30 AM
I separate them into two groups
Good patriotic Americans who care about their nation. Since they care about their nation they will do what it takes to protect our nation and our people
Bad self centered people- These are the ones that often wrap themselves up in our flag but in reality hate our nation. Their philosophy is, "ask not what I can do for my Country, as what my country can do for me"
I'm with you Rich. We should stop rationalizing the motives of selfish, meanspirited fools, and draw a line in the sand. While perhaps we all share the blame for an electoral system which allowed a vile, certifiable sociopath to occupy the Presidency and thus to do serious and enduring harm to the physical and psychological health of our people, and to the honor, respect and integrity of our Nation, it has come to this: Anyone who voted for Trump is to be pitied while anyone who continues to support him is to be despised.
As far as I'm concerned, those who voted for Trump
The CDC has modified it's virus testing scenareos
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/c-d-c-now-says-people-without-covid-19-symptoms-do-not-need-testing/ar-BB18mUoD?ocid=msedgdhp
Seems now if you have, or show, no symptoms, there is no reason for you to get tested.
Quote from: LennG on August 26, 2020, 12:50:07 PM
The CDC has modified it's virus testing scenareos
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/c-d-c-now-says-people-without-covid-19-symptoms-do-not-need-testing/ar-BB18mUoD?ocid=msedgdhp
Seems now if you have, or show, no symptoms, there is no reason for you to get tested.
This goes against every known public health practice. On the other hand, a certain man in charge has been saying that he wanted less testing...
Less testing will lead to more cases and more deaths.
Trump is LITERALLY killing Americans! For those of you who support Donald Trump, think about how you are supporting the killing of Americans (less testing = more cases = more deaths)
CDC was pressured 'from the top down' to change coronavirus testing guidance, official says
QuoteA sudden change in federal guidelines on coronavirus testing came this week as a result of pressure from the upper ranks of the Trump administration, a federal health official close to the process tells CNN.
"It's coming from the top down," the official said of the new directive from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/26/politics/cdc-coronavirus-testing-guidance/index.html
While not as bad at Trump deliberately killing Americans by cutting back on testing, his FDA LIED about the plasma treatment (although they claim it was just a coincidence that they did that right before Trump's convention)
QuoteAfter several days of rumors with ever-growing hype, the Trump administration announced on Sunday that the Food and Drug Administration was granting an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) for a COVID-19 treatment. The move was controversial from the start, with reports indicating that the EUA was opposed by a number of health experts, including National Institutes of Health Director Francis Collins and National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases Director Anthony Fauci. The press conference didn't settle matters, with a growing chorus of scientists saying that the data presented in support of the EUA had been misrepresented.
Trump announces a COVID-19 Emergency Use Authorization for blood plasma
On Monday night, FDA Commissioner Stephen Hahn acknowledged that he had made a significant error in presenting the benefits of the treatment, and he followed that statement with an apology on Tuesday. But Hahn pushed back against indications that the approval of the treatment on the eve of the Republican National Convention was motivated by political pressure.
MORE
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/08/fda-commissioner-botched-risk-numbers-when-talking-about-post-covid-plasma/
I am healthy (I hope) and have no symptoms of the Virus, haven't been in contact with anyone who may have the virus, so why would I even consider being teated?
Quote from: LennG on August 26, 2020, 06:07:50 PM
I am healthy (I hope) and have no symptoms of the Virus, haven't been in contact with anyone who may have the virus, so why would I even consider being teated?
1) much of the Covid spread is from people who are infected by having no symptoms
2) If I had a nickel for every person who was infected but said they haven't been in contact with anyone who may have the virus...
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/department-justice-requesting-data-governors-states-issued-covid-19-orders-may-have-resulted
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 26, 2020, 07:56:31 PM
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/department-justice-requesting-data-governors-states-issued-covid-19-orders-may-have-resulted
Bob,
You really seem to enjoy Barr's unethical and often illegal use of America's Justice Department for Trump's political gain. You seem to feel that any criminal or unethical action is okay as long as it furthers your political agenda. That is not a value, I can get behind and I think it's why we don't agree on all that much. I guess that is why you are okay with Trump killing Americans by reducing testing
Kyle Griffin
@kylegriffin1
American Medical Association: "Months into this pandemic, we know COVID-19 is spread by asymptomatic people. Suggesting that people without symptoms, who have known exposure to COVID-positive individuals, do not need testing is a recipe for community spread and more spikes."
[Abbott labs' new rapid results covid test]
https://abbott.mediaroom.com/2020-08-26-Abbotts-Fast-5-15-Minute-Easy-to-Use-COVID-19-Antigen-Test-Receives-FDA-Emergency-Use-Authorization-Mobile-App-Displays-Test-Results-to-Help-Our-Return-to-Daily-Life-Ramping-Production-to-50-Million-Tests-a-Month
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 27, 2020, 12:47:42 PM
[Abbott labs' new rapid results covid test]
https://abbott.mediaroom.com/2020-08-26-Abbotts-Fast-5-15-Minute-Easy-to-Use-COVID-19-Antigen-Test-Receives-FDA-Emergency-Use-Authorization-Mobile-App-Displays-Test-Results-to-Help-Our-Return-to-Daily-Life-Ramping-Production-to-50-Million-Tests-a-Month
Certainly welcome news, but I am not sure it will be a game-changer. Here are the key points
In data submitted to the FDA from a clinical study conducted by Abbott with several leading U.S. research universities, the BinaxNOW COVID-19 Ag Card demonstrated sensitivity of 97.1% (positive percent agreement) and specificity of 98.5% (negative percent agreement) in patients suspected of COVID-19 by their healthcare provider
within the first seven days of symptom onset.Under FDA EUA, the BinaxNOW COVID-19 Ag Card is for use by healthcare professionals and can be used in point-of-care settings that are qualified to have the test performed and are operating under a CLIA (Clinical Laboratory Improvement Amendments) Certificate of Waiver, Certificate of Compliance, or Certificate of Accreditation. Within these settings, the test can be performed by doctors, nurses, school nurses, medical assistants and technicians, pharmacists, employer occupational health specialists, and more with minimal training and a patient prescription.
The "within the first 7 days of symptom onset" limits it's usefulness as the ideal test would catch infections in the 2 days prior to symptoms and those who are infectious but never have symptoms.
Still, with cold and flu season coming soon this could be critical to help mitigate future problems
The combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin significantly increased mortality in COVID-19 patients (relative risk=1.27), finds a new systematic review and meta-analysis. (Clinical Microbiology and Infection Journal, 26 August 2020)
Conclusion
Hydroxychloroquine alone was not associated with reduced mortality in hospitalized COVID-19 patients but the combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin significantly increased mortality.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1198743X2030505X
Another HCQ study.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638
As many as 90 percent of all POSITIVE coronavirus tests may have actually been NEGATIVE. Here's why:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/29/health/coronavirus-testing.html
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 30, 2020, 11:28:42 AM
As many as 90 percent of all POSITIVE coronavirus tests may have actually been NEGATIVE. Here's why:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/29/health/coronavirus-testing.html
I have to say, I don't agree with anything about that article. It was shoddy science that made a lot of claims that simply are not backed with any facts. On top of that, there was no accounting for the variable of how samples are gathered.
Dr. Fauci Warns COVID Could Get 'Multiple Times' Worse
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/dr-fauci-warns-covid-could-get-multiple-times-worse/ar-BB18whk2?ocid=msedgdhp
Dr. Fauci Says African-Americans Get More Infections Because of 'Social Determinants'
Dr. Fauci Says African-Americans are Hit Worse Because of Pre-Existing Conditions
Dr. Fauci Says African-Americans
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 30, 2020, 01:14:29 PM
I have to say, I don't agree with anything about that article. It was shoddy science that made a lot of claims that simply are not backed with any facts. On top of that, there was no accounting for the variable of how samples are gathered.
Rich: It's got a lot of "wriggle-room" in it. AS MANY AS..... MAY HAVE BEEN.... they're still investigating, now that doctors' attention has been called to the measurement parameters under which the test is run. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 30, 2020, 01:51:46 PM
Rich: It's got a lot of "wriggle-room" in it. AS MANY AS..... MAY HAVE BEEN.... they're still investigating, now that doctors' attention has been called to the measurement parameters under which the test is run. Bob
Bob,
You know when it comes to Covid, I will tell you what I think from my background. When I see something shoddy, I will tell you. If you post something I agree with even partially I will tell you. This is just bad work all the way around, in my opinion. Not only that, you, as a layperson, came away with an incorrect conclusion (one of my big tests for quality). The argument wasn't that the positive tests were negative, but rather they are arguing (without proper evidence) that the positive tests (because of the sensitivity) are flagging infected people who are no longer infectious.
Here is something Covid related that troubles me. This is a great way to make things worse
University of Alabama orders faculty to keep quiet about outbreak
If professors become aware of an infection,
Study of some cheap and readily available steroids shows positive results.
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN25T20D?__twitter_impression=true
I find this article troubling. It's these sort of issues that make me want to keep the spread of Covid to the smallest amount possible
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-19-can-wreck-your-heart-even-if-you-havent-had-any-symptoms/
Any off topic comments will be removed.
I think we all tend to think of Covid as killing off mostly the elderly and the medically weak. I was a bit shocked to learn this statistic
Law Enforcement Line of duty as of September 2nd
Covid- 100
Gun Fire- 35
Auto Related- 33
All Other- 13
Officers are men and women who are generally not elderly or informed. So it's striking that in a hazardous occupation such as this one, Covid has killed more officers than all other deaths combined.
Parth Upadhyaya
@pupadhyaya_
BREAKING: #PennState's director of athletic medicine, Wayne Sebastianelli, says that cardiac MRI scans revealed that roughly 30-35 percent of Big Ten athletes who tested positive for COVID-19 appeared to have myocarditis. centredaily.com/sports/college
Sad to see people so young die from this disease.
https://apnews.com/4ee025ba6c4c19c024ce384503f23ef3
Quote from: uconnjack8 on September 10, 2020, 01:48:31 PM
Sad to see people so young die from this disease.
https://apnews.com/4ee025ba6c4c19c024ce384503f23ef3
She was obese. Obesity seems to be a major risk factor
This will be a widespread problem relatively quickly.
https://www.grandforksherald.com/newsmd/coronavirus/6732987-The-true-cost-of-North-Dakotas-strained-hospitals-He-could%E2%80%99ve-easily-died-in-my-home