What led to the disconnect?

[4 Aces]

Unfortunately a lot of fans have tied themselves up in knots trying to figure out who's to blame about the OLine....

I encourage people to listen to Mark Collins' interview on Giants Insider podcast this week.

Mark's one of the best CB's in franchise history and still bleeds Giants blue and follows the team as closely as any of us. It's always great to get a former player's perspective for obvious reasons.

Some key takeaways:

*Collins says what most of us think: there is a massive disconnect between what we saw last year and this year. You don't just go from a playoff team on the upswing to completely non-competitive like we've seen this year. He can't put his finger on it, but something is seriously wrong.

*When pressed, he blamed the coaching. Related a story from back when he was playing, the Giants DB Coach (Len Fontes) said to his troops "I'm not getting fired because of you". Fontes showed them EVERYTHING, went over every imaginable situation and exactly how to defend it. Collins said "every DB knew exactly what to do when they stepped on the field". Said Belichick coached the same way. Mark didn't make any bones about it: he feels Bobby Johnson should be fired for not getting the OL ready to play. The mistakes they are making aren't about talent, they're about preparation. He's never seen the kind of errors these guys make even in Pop Warner. (Unable to ID stunts, guys turning their backs to rushers, etc.) There has to be accountability for the position coaches and BJ has done a piss poor job.

*They also brought up the defense and the bad tackling. Collins played CB like a LB. Great form tackler. Said the lack of contact in preseason isn't an excuse - it's about "desire". Said he would've been rusty in certain aspects of the game after time off, but not tackling. Would always know how to lay a smack on somebody and that went for everyone on the D. Laughed at the idea you'd have to build up your tackling at this level. It's about a mindset to put the guy on the ground.

*Overall, said you just don't see the kind of low quality play "at this level" the Giants are showing. It's about pride, and looking yourselves in the mirror.

The Giants have a big problem here - the coaches aren't getting the job done, there is zero accountability among the coaches (you can throw McGaughey in there too), and they don't have guys with the right mindset. He even took some shots at Jerome Henderson (who we all seem to think is fantastic) for the lack of tackling and Adoree's lack of understanding in the slot.

[Woody]

Why is it that our little group of Informed Fans knew that there was a failure to upgrade the Offensive Line this offseason with only the drafting of a starting Center? The Giants did not.

We all commented that the two guard positions needed an upgrade and there was no Swing Tackle that could be relied upon.

During Camp we were happy that Bredeson was showing signs of being solid but with no backup Center, the poor guy has been forced to play three positions with no way of settling in. I'll admit I was fooled into believing that Peart might just be a viable option and hoped Ezeudu's athleticism would sustain him at LT in Thomas' absence.

We heard about how Neal worked hard all offseason and hoped for him to elevate his play but that didn't happen.

So when the best player in the team went down, the Blind side was exposed and when both ends come crumbling down, and there is a revolving gate in the middle, the entire Offense breaks down.

They truly believed in Neal, Peart and Ezeudu. They felt that Bredeson and Glowinski would be fine.

So instead of bringing in better players, they went with the status quo and went all out on getting more Receiving options for Daniel Jones. The only thing is that he can't function under these conditions and Campbell, Hyatt and Waller are rendered useless.

I can't even put it all on Schoen because he gets his needs from the Coaching Staff.

What should have been at least a mediocre Oline became the worst in the league and in Giants history because of injuries to multiple players. So bad that they had to elevate two practice squad players who actually had game time.

This isn't to absolve Daniel Jones of his shortcomings but to expose that Daboll and Schoen and Johnson and Kafka failed to recognize them.

Right now Johnson and Tierney have done nothing to help elevate these players. Part of it is the talent and part of it is on them.

Very disappointing. Five Head Coaches and three GM's later and this Offensive line remains Offensive.

Mara so far has remained silent but I'm sure he's having meetings today. I have to wonder if his influence in wanting Daniel Jones to succeed has lead Schoen to sign Jones to a multi-year deal and bring in weapons for Jones to succeed.

If the Giants were home yesterday, I suspect Mara would be rattled by the booing that would have taken place.

Offensive line coaching needs to be changed at the very least.
It has been done before and should be done again. These guys aren't getting it done


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[Ed Vette]

Offensive line coaching needs to be changed at the very least.
It has been done before and should be done again. These guys aren't getting it done


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Now or at the end of the season?

[Woody]

Now or at the end of the season?

Now.  I think Dallas did it a few years ago and the Giants as well.
Can't get worse.
Also remember they let a lot of experience walk this year...Fernandez and I can't remember name  the other lineman....
Gates as well ...now playing now starting for Washington.
Young guys don't get it or they are not very good....again coaching?
David Deil made a comment a couple of years ago ....about the big dollar guy they got from Pats....how he was being coached much different than when he played with Patriots....i.e. techniques,schemes everything and how difficult it was for him to change.


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[kingm56]

Unfortunately a lot of fans have tied themselves up in knots trying to figure out who's to blame about the OLine....

I encourage people to listen to Mark Collins' interview on Giants Insider podcast this week.

Mark's one of the best CB's in franchise history and still bleeds Giants blue and follows the team as closely as any of us. It's always great to get a former player's perspective for obvious reasons.

Some key takeaways:

*Collins says what most of us think: there is a massive disconnect between what we saw last year and this year. You don't just go from a playoff team on the upswing to completely non-competitive like we've seen this year. He can't put his finger on it, but something is seriously wrong.

M Collins is one of the most underrated Giants of All-Time; however, the foundation of his argument is factually incorrect. On average, literally half the teams that make the playoffs one year, won't repeat the following season.  From my perspective, it was clear both Minn and the Giants were going to be a victim of this stat, as both teams were unlikely to benefit from the same relative good health and fortunate bounces the enjoyed last year.  To that point, I believe a significant portion of BBH posters stated the Giants we're still in a rebuild and unlikely to repeat last year's performance.

The oscillation between our coaches are great, to they suck, amuses me. Fundamentally, it's the same staff from last season...did they forget how to coach?  No, the Giants poor play is much simpler to explain:

1. Their schedule is a LOT more difficult.  Is anyone really surprised by any of the losses? I'll grant you they way we lost them is disappointing, but not the loss itself. 
2. Injuries, injuries, injuries. It's hard to be competitive with half your team on the injury report. 
3. They've had an anemic offense for 5 years, which leaves little margin for #2
4.  They have young players on defense.

The notion that nobody saw this coming is also factually incorrect; there's a reason Vegas O/U for the Giants this season was 7.5 wins. The majority of NFL fans were skeptical about the Giants repeating, or building on last years performance.  Finally, the downward trajectory did not begin this season, it started after week 8 last year; the Giants finished with a 3-5-1 record, which isn't exactly an ascending team.'

Firing or replacing the coaches won't magically put us on a trajectory equal to Phili or SF.  I'm afraid the house needs more than just a few shingles...

[Ed Vette]

Now.  I think Dallas did it a few years ago and the Giants as well.
Can't get worse.
Also remember they let a lot of experience walk this year...Fernandez and I can't remember name  the other lineman....
Gates as well ...now playing now starting for Washington.
Young guys don't get it or they are not very good....again coaching?
David Deil made a comment a couple of years ago ....about the big dollar guy they got from Pats....how he was being coached much different than when he played with Patriots....i.e. techniques,schemes everything and how difficult it was for him to change.


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Who would you replace him with?

[andrew_nyGiants]

As it turned out Gates and Feliciano became huge losses.

Did they? Or was it the OL Coach who didn't put them in a position to win.

Just maybe there are OL of equal or greater talent on this roster who are suffering under Johnson's "tutelage".

Think about it: 2 grizzled vets, suddenly rejuvenated in one year at two separate teams?


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[MightyGiants]

As I mentioned before, the Giants lost Sprano Jr, who was their assistant O-line coach.  He became Indy's O-line coach and that line is doing well.   It's possible last season Bobby was propped up by a talented assistant.

[andrew_nyGiants]

Who would you replace him with?

How about Chris Snee? He's a qualified Coach and couldn't be any worse than Johnson.


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[kingm56]

Did they? Or was it the OL Coach who didn't put them in a position to win.

Just maybe there are OL of equal or greater talent on this roster who are suffering under Johnson's "tutelage".

Think about it: 2 grizzled vets, suddenly rejuvenated in one year at two separate teams?


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Gates is the exact same player in Washington as he was in NY; he literally leads the league in sacks allowed and has the exact same PFF scores as the previous 4 seasons.  He's not any better, or any worse, despite playing for different coaches.  Feliciano is backup; he's only played 35 snaps.  Like most veterans on their second contracts, coaching seems to have little impact on their individual performances

[Ed Vette]

Gates is the exact same player in Washington as he was in NY; he literally leads the league in sacks allowed and has the exact same PFF scores as the previous 4 seasons.  He's not any better, or any worse, despite playing for different coaches.  Feliciano is backup; he's only played 35 snaps.  Like most veterans on their second contracts, coaching seems to have little impact on their individual performances

Both better than Lemieux, McK at this point and the PS shlubs.

[Ed Vette]

How about Chris Snee? He's a qualified Coach and couldn't be any worse than Johnson.


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He has a job.

[kingm56]

Both better than Lemieux, McK at this point and the PS shlubs.

Zero arguments!  I'm not sure how/why Lemieux is still playing in the NFL.