Quote from: sxdxca38 on Today at 12:49:13 AMIf you want to say that Brady playing behind a top five offensive line, for the majority of his career had absolutely no impact on his performance, well then be my guest.
Where did I, or anyone, state Brady and Manning did not benefit from playing behind top tier OLs? You're reframing your own premise for reasons only you know. What I stated, and objectively proved, was both QBs were ALSO successful playing behind poor-to-terrible OLs. Thus, they did always benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense." Eli and Brady successes playing behind top 5 OLs, doesn't invalidate thier success playing behind bottom 10 OLs. This is referred to as 'resulting.'
And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it.
As I accurately predicted, your mind is already made up and no amount of objective data will sway you. So, why waste time to provide a cogent response? However, because you ask, I will do so below."
So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning.
You remind me of Blue Fire; any opposing view and/or rebuttal were classified as "faulty." Do you automatically assume anyone who disagrees with you is wrong?
In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham.
You're moving the goal post, presumably because you were unaware of the Giants' 2011 OL ranking. You explicitly stated "What is more important to the QB than the WR is the offensive line", "Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their career" and "It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defensee." BTW, I don't think any fan would classify Manningham or Nicks as 'elite', especially the former. How did both do without Manning? Regardless, I digress as WR(s) weren't aren't focus; you introduced them after learning about the 2011 Giant OL rankings
Have at it, as I'm now going to go to sleep.
This is akin to I'm taking my ball and going home...
Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 06:31:52 AMDid you bother researching your own question? Clearly not...
Eli Manning
Without Question, Eli's best season was 2011, the only year he received All-Pro votes, was a Pro Bowler, and won a SB. That year, PFF ranked the NYG Giants Oline #31 (#32 pass protection). His running game was dead-last...he and JPP carried that team to the playoffs.
Here's the exert from PFF:
Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn't just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants' line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.
Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting ... outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.
Worst Player: It's hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.
Tom Brady
It's complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career. In 2014, 15 and 16, the onlines were bad...REAL BAD. During that span, he continued to play at an AP/MVP level,.
Enjoy the PFF exerts:
2014:
23. New England Patriots
Pass Blocking Ranking: 31st, Run Blocking Ranking: 8th, Penalties Ranking: 19th
Stud: Our second-team All-Pro right tackle Sebastian Vollmer had himself another good year and avoided the injury bug for a change. Bonus.
Dud: The 306 snaps that Jordan Devey managed were brutal to watch at times. Not much of a pass blocker, he didn't exactly light it up in the run game either.
Breakdown: Nate Solder had a bad year by his standards and the interior gave up way too much pressure. They did bloody some rookies, but this group appeared a unit in transition, with the team trying to patch up something just good enough to not harm their skill players too much.
2015:
25. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
Pass-blocking rank: 31st
Run-blocking rank: 12th
Penalties rank: 15th
Stud: Far from perfect, but Josh Kline looked the part when he got on the field.
Dud: Pick your poison here. None were truly atrocious, but most were well below average. None more so than Cameron Fleming, who allowed way too much pressure.
Summary: The good news is that, where they struggle (pass protection), they have a quarterback good enough to overcome it. But it was still so bad that you wonder how much easier (and better) life for Tom Brady could have been with better protection.
"I think we've established how atrocious the New England Patriots offensive line performed in 2015. Almost every single player to suit up on the line was hurt for some extended period of time, and the team had to rely on a series of young, inexperienced, and hurt players to protect the best player in the NFL."
According to Pro Football Focus, the Patriots offensive line ranked 31st in the league in pass protection, ahead of only the San Diego Chargers.
Key Takeaways:
1. Both the 2015 Pats and 2011 Giants won SBs with PFFs 31st and 32 ranked pass blocking olines
2. Prime Eli Manning was absolutely capable, and DID, overcome terrible oline play
3. Tom Brady was an MVP/AP/SP Winner with the NFLs "31 ranked pass protection
4. Tom Brady was capable of making his Line look better than they were
2007: Brady was sacked 21 times
2008: Brady injured, Matt Cassel was sacked 47 times with the same Oline and Coach
2009: Brady returns and the line reverts to allowing just 16 sacks; funny how that works
5. Over the past few months, I've watched fans incorrectly attribute sacks allowed to the Oline, without giving any consideration to the QB; QBs who process poorly are sacked more...is that really a surprise?
I could provide a lot more data points, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of objective or subjective data will change it. Regardless, your statement regarding Eli's and Brady's reliance on the oline has objectively been proven false.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on May 04, 2024, 06:40:43 PMIt is generally not good to attack or put down a poster and then say "did you bother to research your own question? clearly not"...You asked everyone to "Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their careers. It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense."
And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it.
This is what we call the logical fallacy of cherry picking, using just one example and then building an entire world view around it, which misleads yourself and those who listen to you.
But this isn't the first time you have done this, you have a built-up history of this kind of behavior.
So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning.
Has Eli Manning really played behind a terrible offensive line like "Kingm56" has claimed? Well, what do the facts actually show?
New York Giants offensive line rankings
2005 - ranked 4th best in the NFL
Link
2007 - The 2007 offensive line was one of the best in the league, if not the best. It was also completely healthy. Snee was a dominant player, and O'Hara and Seubert were excellent. McKenzie was one of the league's best right tackles and Diehl did an adequate job on the left side.
https://www.bigblueview.com/2012/6/20/3099072/2007-giants-vs-2011-giants-comparing-super-bowl-champs-offensive-lines
2008 - ranked #1
link
2009 - Considered the best offensive line in the league
link
So, I have just shown four years where Eli Manning played behind one of the best offensive lines in the NFL, and I haven't even begun to go through 2010-2018, but later I will.
In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham.
Cruz took a 9 yard out and ran it for 99 yards against the Jets for a TD. He did the same thing with a 7 yard out for 74 yards against the cowboys.
So, before you attack or attempt to put down another poster, which really isn't tolerated here, I would encourage you in the future, if you really want to know the correct answer to something, and to be taken seriously, it is best to look at all the years and all the data, to come to a proper conclusion, instead of only using one of Eli Mannings years.
Quote from: LennG on May 04, 2024, 07:43:00 PMYour stats are fine, but he did mention, most clearly, that Eli also played behind one of the worst OLs in the league and we won a SB behind them.
I don't care if Eli had the best OLs for most of his career, fact is Eli had one of the worst and he won with it. For all the excuses so many have given for Jones and his OL, how come he can't do the same?
Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 07:35:34 AMWhat evidence do you have to support that statement? Concerning Brady, he had a completely new system in TB and enjoyed career years; conversely, the system you claim was culpable for his success has been abysmal since his departure. The architect of said system, now has a record of 82-98 without Tom Brady. QBs like Brady and Manning are successful wherever they go, while their OCs like McDaniels and Adam Case are duds. It should be clear as day the QB is more important to the system, than the system is to the QB. In short, good QBs are going to be good, regardless of the system.
"save for the randy moss years, tom was never exactly airing it out. he was hitting guys underneath that could pick up YAC"
This statement is just false.
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/tom-brady-passes-over-20-yards-by-year
Brady is probably not the guy you want to use to prove that QB needs elite WRs to be successful, or an Oline for that matter.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on May 04, 2024, 06:40:43 PMIt is generally not good to attack or put down a poster and then say "did you bother to research your own question? clearly not"...
And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it.
This is what we call the logical fallacy of cherry picking, using just one example and then building an entire world view around it, which misleads yourself and those who listen to you.
But this isn't the first time you have done this, you have a built-up history of this kind of behavior.
So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning.
Has Eli Manning really played behind a terrible offensive line like "Kingm56" has claimed? Well, what do the facts actually show?
New York Giants offensive line rankings
2005 - ranked 4th best in the NFL
Link
2007 - The 2007 offensive line was one of the best in the league, if not the best. It was also completely healthy. Snee was a dominant player, and O'Hara and Seubert were excellent. McKenzie was one of the league's best right tackles and Diehl did an adequate job on the left side.
https://www.bigblueview.com/2012/6/20/3099072/2007-giants-vs-2011-giants-comparing-super-bowl-champs-offensive-lines
2008 - ranked #1
link
2009 - Considered the best offensive line in the league
link
So, I have just shown four years where Eli Manning played behind one of the best offensive lines in the NFL, and I haven't even begun to go through 2010-2018, but later I will.
In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham.
Cruz took a 9 yard out and ran it for 99 yards against the Jets for a TD. He did the same thing with a 7 yard out for 74 yards against the cowboys.
So, before you attack or attempt to put down another poster, which really isn't tolerated here, I would encourage you in the future, if you really want to know the correct answer to something, and to be taken seriously, it is best to look at all the years and all the data, to come to a proper conclusion, instead of only using one of Eli Mannings years.
Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 06:31:52 AMDid you bother researching your own question? Clearly not...
Eli Manning
Without Question, Eli's best season was 2011, the only year he received All-Pro votes, was a Pro Bowler, and won a SB. That year, PFF ranked the NYG Giants Oline #31 (#32 pass protection). His running game was dead-last...he and JPP carried that team to the playoffs.
Here's the exert from PFF:
Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn't just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants' line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.
Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting ... outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.
Worst Player: It's hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.
Tom Brady
It's complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career. In 2014, 15 and 16, the onlines were bad...REAL BAD. During that span, he continued to play at an AP/MVP level,.
Enjoy the PFF exerts:
2014:
23. New England Patriots
Pass Blocking Ranking: 31st, Run Blocking Ranking: 8th, Penalties Ranking: 19th
Stud: Our second-team All-Pro right tackle Sebastian Vollmer had himself another good year and avoided the injury bug for a change. Bonus.
Dud: The 306 snaps that Jordan Devey managed were brutal to watch at times. Not much of a pass blocker, he didn't exactly light it up in the run game either.
Breakdown: Nate Solder had a bad year by his standards and the interior gave up way too much pressure. They did bloody some rookies, but this group appeared a unit in transition, with the team trying to patch up something just good enough to not harm their skill players too much.
2015:
25. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
Pass-blocking rank: 31st
Run-blocking rank: 12th
Penalties rank: 15th
Stud: Far from perfect, but Josh Kline looked the part when he got on the field.
Dud: Pick your poison here. None were truly atrocious, but most were well below average. None more so than Cameron Fleming, who allowed way too much pressure.
Summary: The good news is that, where they struggle (pass protection), they have a quarterback good enough to overcome it. But it was still so bad that you wonder how much easier (and better) life for Tom Brady could have been with better protection.
"I think we've established how atrocious the New England Patriots offensive line performed in 2015. Almost every single player to suit up on the line was hurt for some extended period of time, and the team had to rely on a series of young, inexperienced, and hurt players to protect the best player in the NFL."
According to Pro Football Focus, the Patriots offensive line ranked 31st in the league in pass protection, ahead of only the San Diego Chargers.
Key Takeaways:
1. Both the 2015 Pats and 2011 Giants won SBs with PFFs 31st and 32 ranked pass blocking olines
2. Prime Eli Manning was absolutely capable, and DID, overcome terrible oline play
3. Tom Brady was an MVP/AP/SP Winner with the NFLs "31 ranked pass protection
4. Tom Brady was capable of making his Line look better than they were
2007: Brady was sacked 21 times
2008: Brady injured, Matt Cassel was sacked 47 times with the same Oline and Coach
2009: Brady returns and the line reverts to allowing just 16 sacks; funny how that works
5. Over the past few months, I've watched fans incorrectly attribute sacks allowed to the Oline, without giving any consideration to the QB; QBs who process poorly are sacked more...is that really a surprise?
I could provide a lot more data points, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of objective or subjective data will change it. Regardless, your statement regarding Eli's and Brady's reliance on the oline has objectively been proven false.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on May 04, 2024, 06:20:57 PMThere is more than ZERO evidence.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/nfl/article-12691269/NFL-Trade-Deadline-Giants-star-Saquon-Barkley-draws-DeAndre-Hopkins-coy-possible-deal-Broncos-good-offer-wide-receiver-Jerry-Jeudy.html
Quote from: Stringer Bell on May 04, 2024, 06:10:20 PMThis is my issue. You state it as fact that they received trade offers for him and turned them down, when there is zero evidence that it happened.