As Ed has alluded to, we are trying out some NFT topics to get a feel for how they might be received, and maybe to start a new forum for them. Unlike the old Back Porch, this will be for topics that people would like to discuss, even debate, but in an intelligent way, and NO references to politics allowed. This is a very slow time in the NFL, so we thought let's try out a few topics and see how they fly.
One of the topics I would like other opinions on, because there are many on this one is the George Zimmerman shooting of Trayvon Martin. I know we all have heard this case and we all must have opinions on it.
For starters, was George Zimmerman right in what he did?
Did he deserve the punishment, criticism and media blackballing, he has received?
What does one think of the Florida Law of standing your ground no matter what?.
I have a good friend who is a criminal attorney. We talked about this case and he feels the prosecution will have a very hard time convicting Zimmerman of any sort of murder charge. He explained the Florida stand your ground law to me, compared to a state like NY. In NY, if you feel your life in danger and have the chance to run away, you MUST run away. If there is no other option and you cannot run, then you have the right to shoot. Like if some one broke into your house, you cannot run from that. But Florida is different, and Zimmerman had the chance to leave, but they do not require that, so he stood his ground and killed another man.
Does that make him a killer??
Evidence now seems to point to Zimmerman was telling the truth that Martin was assaulting him, beating him up, on top of him when he fired his gun and killed him. That part seems pretty clear. But the police said Zimmerman should never have gotten out of his car and confronted Martin.
So what's the verdict???
This is why I think zimm should be accused one as you said this whole thing could of been avoided by zimm staying in the car and two is a example there was a guy sitting in his house one day he looked over to his neighbor s house he seen two gentlemen going through stuff who does not live there the robbers seen him looking inside so they tried to leave but the guy took his shotgun out and killed one of them even when they posed no threat to him and he was sentenced long story short you go looking for trouble you'll find it and that day martin wasn't
The "evidence" was not exactly sound. Reports from Zimmerman's hand picked doctor are hardly credible. What will be credible are the EMT report and the police statements and pictures of any wounds. We have seen video of Zimmerman reporting to the station house not looking anything like what George's doctor claimed. Not that is all that surprising as there are doctors who will stretch the truth for the patient so they can get out of work, file phony lawsuits or in this case help keep a murderer out of jail.
Secondly the witness statements about who was on top were clearly coached as the statements did not match human visual ability. The statements involved identifying a man on top by the color of his shirt. Now it was a dark night and there is a funny thing about human's ability to perceive color, it doesn't exist when it gets dark. Try it yourself go out when it's near the end of dusk or darker and notice how vision goes to a basic black and white and colors become difficult to determine.
The police failed to do their job and let the killer walk free. That gave Zimmerman plenty of time to work with his daddy the judge and his lawyer a to concoct a story and fabricate evidence like his doctor's report
Finally it seems Zimmerman's penchant for lying has pissed off the judge. First he lied to the judge when he told the judge he was out of work and broke (when he actually had raised over $200,000 from people who rewarded him with large sums of cash for killing an unarmed black teenager) and he only turned in one of his two passports. So the judge has revoked the killer's bail and he is going to be spending time in prison until his trial
I agree with the messed up laws in Florida justice may not be served, but the reality is Zimmerman is a killer that killed an unarmed and innocent teen and he deserves to spend a long time in jail.
The whole getting out of the car thing could be considered a gray area to some.
If he is in his car and drives off is it considered an act of retreat and thus something the Florida laws apparently do not require?
Does the mere act of getting out of his car represent a confrontational act? Is he not allowed to do so under the circumstances?
I dont know how to interpret any of this. The lawyers will likely find a way to spin it to their satisfaction I'm sure. In many cases, society frowns upon the man who fails to act in the face of crime. Martin wasn't committing a crime though. He was merely walking near a house in the neighborhood.
This thing is very ugly. One thing is clear, an armed man should have much more common sense and should act with more caution. IMO, the fact that he armed himself and then sought conflict is a bad thing for all gun owners. A gun is not a license to stir trouble or provoke trouble. If you are armed, and involve yourself in a situation that could spiral out of control, your first instinct will be to go for your weapon. Bad and stupid.
I really don't know whether Zimm is guilty or not. There was a huge rush to convict him by the media. This spawned bad reactions on the part of some gangs around the country; the Norfolk VA one being a prime example. The police have seemed to be slow to react to this whole affair. Guilty or not, Zimm is surly doing some really dumb things. Will there ever actually be a trial?
I have hardly ever agreed with Alan Dershowitz about anything. But if even he says that there is no chance that they can convict Zimmerman I have to go with that.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/dershowitz-no-jury-would-convict-zimmerman-of-murder-unless-afraid-new-black-panthers-might-kill-them/ (http://www.mediaite.com/tv/dershowitz-no-jury-would-convict-zimmerman-of-murder-unless-afraid-new-black-panthers-might-kill-them/)
I know this case seems complicated at first look but my view, based on my read of the Stand Your Ground Law should not prevent Zimmerman from being found guilty.
1) Zimmerman pursued this kid even though a Police Dispatcher told him to back off.
2) Zimmerman was also told by the same dispatcher the Police would be there in 2 minutes or so.
3) Zimmerman caused the confrontation to occur. As the lead investigating Detective said "this was completely avoidable".
4) Zimmerman is in no way connected with Law Enforcement.
5) Neighborhood Watch people were mandated not to carry weapons.
Also, I know many people want to make this a Racial situation, but I think it is a non issue based on the facts. Legally Zimmeman did not have the legal right to pursue this kid.
ok folks, if you are gonna talk about this one go to the fla.gov site and look up the laws regarding having a permit to carry a concealed weapon in the state of florida.
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 01, 2012, 10:47:13 PM
The "evidence" was not exactly sound. Reports from Zimmerman's hand picked doctor are hardly credible. What will be credible are the EMT report and the police statements and pictures of any wounds. We have seen video of Zimmerman reporting to the station house not looking anything like what George's doctor claimed. Not that is all that surprising as there are doctors who will stretch the truth for the patient so they can get out of work, file phony lawsuits or in this case help keep a murderer out of jail.
Secondly the witness statements about who was on top were clearly coached as the statements did not match human visual ability. The statements involved identifying a man on top by the color of his shirt. Now it was a dark night and there is a funny thing about human's ability to perceive color, it doesn't exist when it gets dark. Try it yourself go out when it's near the end of dusk or darker and notice how vision goes to a basic black and white and colors become difficult to determine.
The police failed to do their job and let the killer walk free. That gave Zimmerman plenty of time to work with his daddy the judge and his lawyer a to concoct a story and fabricate evidence like his doctor's report
Finally it seems Zimmerman's penchant for lying has pissed off the judge. First he lied to the judge when he told the judge he was out of work and broke (when he actually had raised over $200,000 from people who rewarded him with large sums of cash for killing an unarmed black teenager) and he only turned in one of his two passports. So the judge has revoked the killer's bail and he is going to be spending time in prison until his trial
I agree with the messed up laws in Florida justice may not be served, but the reality is Zimmerman is a killer that killed an unarmed and innocent teen and he deserves to spend a long time in jail.
I think you're off the rails here.
Not only are you convicting Zimmerman without hearing the evidence you are smearing his doctor, making claims of witnesses being coached and alleging the police failed to do their job and "let a 'killer' walk free".
You are questioning eyewitness accounts immediately after the shooting by two people who place Zimmerman under Martin with Martin flailing away? You choose to disregard the photo obtained by ABC news that shows Zimmerman's bloody head - a photo taken 3 minutes after the police arrived on the scene. A bloody back of head, consistent with Zimmerman's claims of Martin bashing his head into the concrete.
Perhaps you were taken in by the media outcry and Sharpton's rent-a-riot, etc. but I have not been. Taken in by the years-old cherubic photo of Martin supplied by the family that bore little resemblance to what he looks like today. A photo designed to ilicit sympathy. Taken in by the first reports of the "large man Zimmerman" shooting the "smaller boy Martin". Martin was 6'2".
If the facts reveal Zimmerman recklessly and needlessly killed Martin then I'm with you - he should go to jail. It seems to me though, that you are acting recklessly above.
JJM
Quote from: worf49 on June 02, 2012, 12:47:02 AM
I know this case seems complicated at first look but my view, based on my read of the Stand Your Ground Law should not prevent Zimmerman from being found guilty.
1) Zimmerman pursued this kid even though a Police Dispatcher told him to back off.
2) Zimmerman was also told by the same dispatcher the Police would be there in 2 minutes or so.
3) Zimmerman caused the confrontation to occur. As the lead investigating Detective said "this was completely avoidable".
4) Zimmerman is in no way connected with Law Enforcement.
5) Neighborhood Watch people were mandated not to carry weapons.
Also, I know many people want to make this a Racial situation, but I think it is a non issue based on the facts. Legally Zimmeman did not have the legal right to pursue this kid.
How do you know that Zimmerman caused the confrontation to occur? Without being an eyewitness yourself, you cannot know that. The lead investigator said it was "ultimately avoidable" not "completely". The point he was making in his report was that if Zimmerman had not gotten out of his car there would have been no shooting. That much is true but it was NOT a crime for Zimmerman to have gotten out of his car and if - IF - he was getting his head bashed in then he was justified in shooting Martin.
And to be accurate, a police dispatcher did not tell him to back off. A 911 operator, when conversing with Zimmerman, said to him "we don't need you to do that" when Zimmerman said he was following Martin.
It's not just symantics - Martin would have been in trouble immediately if he had disobeyed a police order. He did not.
JJM
Quote from: JimboWHO on June 02, 2012, 01:59:00 PM
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 01, 2012, 10:47:13 PM
The "evidence" was not exactly sound. Reports from Zimmerman's hand picked doctor are hardly credible. What will be credible are the EMT report and the police statements and pictures of any wounds. We have seen video of Zimmerman reporting to the station house not looking anything like what George's doctor claimed. Not that is all that surprising as there are doctors who will stretch the truth for the patient so they can get out of work, file phony lawsuits or in this case help keep a murderer out of jail.
Secondly the witness statements about who was on top were clearly coached as the statements did not match human visual ability. The statements involved identifying a man on top by the color of his shirt. Now it was a dark night and there is a funny thing about human's ability to perceive color, it doesn't exist when it gets dark. Try it yourself go out when it's near the end of dusk or darker and notice how vision goes to a basic black and white and colors become difficult to determine.
The police failed to do their job and let the killer walk free. That gave Zimmerman plenty of time to work with his daddy the judge and his lawyer a to concoct a story and fabricate evidence like his doctor's report
Finally it seems Zimmerman's penchant for lying has pissed off the judge. First he lied to the judge when he told the judge he was out of work and broke (when he actually had raised over $200,000 from people who rewarded him with large sums of cash for killing an unarmed black teenager) and he only turned in one of his two passports. So the judge has revoked the killer's bail and he is going to be spending time in prison until his trial
I agree with the messed up laws in Florida justice may not be served, but the reality is Zimmerman is a killer that killed an unarmed and innocent teen and he deserves to spend a long time in jail.
I think you're off the rails here.
Not only are you convicting Zimmerman without hearing the evidence you are smearing his doctor, making claims of witnesses being coached and alleging the police failed to do their job and "let a 'killer' walk free".
You are questioning eyewitness accounts immediately after the shooting by two people who place Zimmerman under Martin with Martin flailing away? You choose to disregard the photo obtained by ABC news that shows Zimmerman's bloody head - a photo taken 3 minutes after the police arrived on the scene. A bloody back of head, consistent with Zimmerman's claims of Martin bashing his head into the concrete.
Perhaps you were taken in by the media outcry and Sharpton's rent-a-riot, etc. but I have not been. Taken in by the years-old cherubic photo of Martin supplied by the family that bore little resemblance to what he looks like today. A photo designed to ilicit sympathy. Taken in by the first reports of the "large man Zimmerman" shooting the "smaller boy Martin". Martin was 6'2".
If the facts reveal Zimmerman recklessly and needlessly killed Martin then I'm with you - he should go to jail. It seems to me though, that you are acting recklessly above.
JJM
The facts that are not in dispute:
Zimmerman has two arrested for violence
Zimmerman's former coworker has stated he was harassed by Zimmerman with racist statements
Zimmerman made frequent complaints to the police about black teens in his housing complex
Zimmerman went out armed with a concealed weapon
Martin was unarmed and returning from the store and was not engaged in criminal activity
Zimmerman failed to follow police instructions to stay in the car
Zimmerman got into a confrontation with the teenage boy
Zimmerman shot the unarmed teen
The police failed to follow standard procedure and test George for drugs and alcohol
The video taken of ZImmerman getting out of the patrol car shows no blood or significant injury
Zimmerman was able to walk away scott free for 44 days
You and others on this thread have mischaracterized demands that Zimmerman be arrested and tried for his crimes as "the media trying to rush to conviction".
Now my opinion
I find this whole case and the reaction of many of Zimmerman's supporters (which are not people on this thread) as proof that racism is alive and well in the USA despite the election of a black President. Did you hear about the sale of George Martin paper shoot targets? They cam complete with hoodie, skittles and a bottle of ice tea. Nothing more fun than practicing shooting black unarmed teenagers :no:
I will also say I found the comments that the only way Zimmerman could possibly be found guilty of murder, for shooting an innocent unarmed black teenage, is that whites would be scared, highly offensive.
Oh and btw as someone who would qualify as an expert witness on EMT's and treatment I find the pictures taken by the police to be highly suspect. It's a fact that ZImmerman was treated at the scene by EMT's and then refused transport to the hospital. Now as someone that has been a practicing EMT for 26 years I know what the treatment at the scene would have entailed. First off the EMT would have stopped the bleeding if it had not already done so. Yet, when you look at the alleged picture there is no smearing of the blood or indication of any sort of treatment. Secondly the EMT should have put a bandage on the wound and that wasn't done either. With that knowledge combined with the conflicting images on video I have serious doubts as to the photo's authenticity.
As I said Zimmerman's bail has been revoked for lying to the judge about his finances (to get his bail reduced) and he only turned in one of his two passports. So as for what exactly went down we have the word of a proven liar with the advantage of the old adage dead men tell no tales.
Oh and a final little puzzle, Martin's lifeless body was found on the grass. If this supposed struggle took place on the grace, how did Zimmerman get those supposed lacerations?
It's a sad state of affairs when a violent man goes out and hunts down an innocent teenager and there are actually people trying to claim anyone thinking that is murder must be an evil liberal, a dupe of the liberal media or a racist black person. The reality is this was a tragic situation where a mother lost a child that she had sent to the store and a young life was needlessly cut short. The nation should have united in demands for a trial and justice to be done. Yet that hasn't been what has happened. Instead it became a political and racial football.
JimboWHO He caused the confrontation because he should not have been anywhere near the kid after reporting a "suspicious person".
Try reading the lead Detective's report and also consider that very same detective did not believe much of Zimmerman's story.
The Detective wanted to arrest Zimmerman but was backed off by The Florida DA for some reason as yet not detailed.
Quote from: worf49 on June 02, 2012, 02:40:37 PM
JimboWHO He caused the confrontation because he should not have been anywhere near the kid after reporting a "suspicious person".
Try reading the lead Detective's report and also consider that very same detective did not believe much of Zimmerman's story.
The Detective wanted to arrest Zimmerman but was backed off by The Florida DA for some reason as yet not detailed.
One has to wonder how Zimmerman's dad a former judge may have influenced events that transpired after the killing.
MIGHTYGIANTS The thought has occurred to more than a few people that the father influenced The DA and it trickled down to the lead Detective.
I suspect at some point that question will HAVE to be answered. Just a personal observation here Zimmerman is a creepy dude.
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 02, 2012, 02:33:45 PM
Quote from: JimboWHO on June 02, 2012, 01:59:00 PM
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 01, 2012, 10:47:13 PM
The "evidence" was not exactly sound. Reports from Zimmerman's hand picked doctor are hardly credible. What will be credible are the EMT report and the police statements and pictures of any wounds. We have seen video of Zimmerman reporting to the station house not looking anything like what George's doctor claimed. Not that is all that surprising as there are doctors who will stretch the truth for the patient so they can get out of work, file phony lawsuits or in this case help keep a murderer out of jail.
Secondly the witness statements about who was on top were clearly coached as the statements did not match human visual ability. The statements involved identifying a man on top by the color of his shirt. Now it was a dark night and there is a funny thing about human's ability to perceive color, it doesn't exist when it gets dark. Try it yourself go out when it's near the end of dusk or darker and notice how vision goes to a basic black and white and colors become difficult to determine.
The police failed to do their job and let the killer walk free. That gave Zimmerman plenty of time to work with his daddy the judge and his lawyer a to concoct a story and fabricate evidence like his doctor's report
Finally it seems Zimmerman's penchant for lying has pissed off the judge. First he lied to the judge when he told the judge he was out of work and broke (when he actually had raised over $200,000 from people who rewarded him with large sums of cash for killing an unarmed black teenager) and he only turned in one of his two passports. So the judge has revoked the killer's bail and he is going to be spending time in prison until his trial
I agree with the messed up laws in Florida justice may not be served, but the reality is Zimmerman is a killer that killed an unarmed and innocent teen and he deserves to spend a long time in jail.
I think you're off the rails here.
Not only are you convicting Zimmerman without hearing the evidence you are smearing his doctor, making claims of witnesses being coached and alleging the police failed to do their job and "let a 'killer' walk free".
You are questioning eyewitness accounts immediately after the shooting by two people who place Zimmerman under Martin with Martin flailing away? You choose to disregard the photo obtained by ABC news that shows Zimmerman's bloody head - a photo taken 3 minutes after the police arrived on the scene. A bloody back of head, consistent with Zimmerman's claims of Martin bashing his head into the concrete.
Perhaps you were taken in by the media outcry and Sharpton's rent-a-riot, etc. but I have not been. Taken in by the years-old cherubic photo of Martin supplied by the family that bore little resemblance to what he looks like today. A photo designed to ilicit sympathy. Taken in by the first reports of the "large man Zimmerman" shooting the "smaller boy Martin". Martin was 6'2".
If the facts reveal Zimmerman recklessly and needlessly killed Martin then I'm with you - he should go to jail. It seems to me though, that you are acting recklessly above.
JJM
The facts that are not in dispute:
Zimmerman has two arrested for violence
Zimmerman's former coworker has stated he was harassed by Zimmerman with racist statements
Zimmerman made frequent complaints to the police about black teens in his housing complex
Zimmerman went out armed with a concealed weapon
Martin was unarmed and returning from the store and was not engaged in criminal activity
Zimmerman failed to follow police instructions to stay in the car
Zimmerman got into a confrontation with the teenage boy
Zimmerman shot the unarmed teen
The police failed to follow standard procedure and test George for drugs and alcohol
The video taken of ZImmerman getting out of the patrol car shows no blood or significant injury
Zimmerman was able to walk away scott free for 44 days
You and others on this thread have mischaracterized demands that Zimmerman be arrested and tried for his crimes as "the media trying to rush to conviction".
Now my opinion
I find this whole case and the reaction of many of Zimmerman's supporters (which are not people on this thread) as proof that racism is alive and well in the USA despite the election of a black President. Did you hear about the sale of George Martin paper shoot targets? They cam complete with hoodie, skittles and a bottle of ice tea. Nothing more fun than practicing shooting black unarmed teenagers :no:
I will also say I found the comments that the only way Zimmerman could possibly be found guilty of murder, for shooting an innocent unarmed black teenage, is that whites would be scared, highly offensive.
Oh and btw as someone who would qualify as an expert witness on EMT's and treatment I find the pictures taken by the police to be highly suspect. It's a fact that ZImmerman was treated at the scene by EMT's and then refused transport to the hospital. Now as someone that has been a practicing EMT for 26 years I know what the treatment at the scene would have entailed. First off the EMT would have stopped the bleeding if it had not already done so. Yet, when you look at the alleged picture there is no smearing of the blood or indication of any sort of treatment. Secondly the EMT should have put a bandage on the wound and that wasn't done either. With that knowledge combined with the conflicting images on video I have serious doubts as to the photo's authenticity.
As I said Zimmerman's bail has been revoked for lying to the judge about his finances (to get his bail reduced) and he only turned in one of his two passports. So as for what exactly went down we have the word of a proven liar with the advantage of the old adage dead men tell no tales.
Oh and a final little puzzle, Martin's lifeless body was found on the grass. If this supposed struggle took place on the grace, how did Zimmerman get those supposed lacerations?
It's a sad state of affairs when a violent man goes out and hunts down an innocent teenager and there are actually people trying to claim anyone thinking that is murder must be an evil liberal, a dupe of the liberal media or a racist black person. The reality is this was a tragic situation where a mother lost a child that she had sent to the store and a young life was needlessly cut short. The nation should have united in demands for a trial and justice to be done. Yet that hasn't been what has happened. Instead it became a political and racial football.
If all you had done was point out facts in your original post I'd have no grounds differ with you but that was not the nature of your OP. You are playing prosecutor. You have that right. It should be pointed out however, that in doing so you are coming to conclusions that may or may not be proven true and accurate.
In supplying your long list of facts immediately above you are also only listing facts that support your theory. You are omitting any facts that might be "inconvenient" to the state (and Martin's family) and you are omitting any facts that weigh in Zimmerman's favor. Or you are impeaching them with little or no basis.
I despise racists as much as you. I'm also utterly fed up and repulsed by the race-baiting, so-called 'black leaders' who always see victimhood and racism where it doesn't necessarily exist.
JJM
Quote from: worf49 on June 02, 2012, 12:47:02 AM
I know this case seems complicated at first look but my view, based on my read of the Stand Your Ground Law should not prevent Zimmerman from being found guilty.
1) Zimmerman pursued this kid even though a Police Dispatcher told him to back off.
2) Zimmerman was also told by the same dispatcher the Police would be there in 2 minutes or so.
3) Zimmerman caused the confrontation to occur. As the lead investigating Detective said "this was completely avoidable".
4) Zimmerman is in no way connected with Law Enforcement.
5) Neighborhood Watch people were mandated not to carry weapons.
Also, I know many people want to make this a Racial situation, but I think it is a non issue based on the facts. Legally Zimmeman did not have the legal right to pursue this kid.
And just what, exactly, was Trayvon Martin doing that looked suspicious to Zimmerman? Was he checking for unlocked cars? Was he peeping in house windows? Was he walking down the middle of the street?
Had Zimmerman stayed in the car like he was advised to do, we'd never know his name.
It's scary to think that a rent-a-cop in any state in the US has capital punishment privledges for any crime.
If you can lock away someone for the better part of a decade for being involved in an automobile accident with a blood alcohol level of .08, I would think being sober and intentionally shooting someone should carry a more severe punishment.
I don't think the fact that Martin may or may not have been struggling with the provocateur of the attack should weigh in on the defense of Zimm. If I start a fight with you, you then proceed to kick my ass, and I shoot you, I'm still at fault.
Quote from: Derach on June 03, 2012, 06:43:02 AM
If I start a fight with you, you then proceed to kick my ass, and I shoot you, I'm still at fault.
That's a major point, you don't bring a gun to a fist fight
Quote from: Derach on June 03, 2012, 06:43:02 AM
It's scary to think that a rent-a-cop in any state in the US has capital punishment privledges for any crime.
If you can lock away someone for the better part of a decade for being involved in an automobile accident with a blood alcohol level of .08, I would think being sober and intentionally shooting someone should carry a more severe punishment.
I don't think the fact that Martin may or may not have been struggling with the provocateur of the attack should weigh in on the defense of Zimm. If I start a fight with you, you then proceed to kick my ass, and I shoot you, I'm still at fault.
"IF I START A FIGHT WITH YOU" Operative word being "IF". Many of you seem to know exactly what happened but how about trying this:
I believe that we do know that Martin was on the phone with his girlfriend when he spyed Zimmerman following him. This brings about the possibility that Martin felt threatened, lost Zimmerman as his girlfriend said, and jumped Zimmerman. In this case, who started the fight? Not the guy many of you think. The obvious point is we don't really know.
There are times when a very unique set of circumstances come together to cause an tragic death - this might just be one of those times. It certainly looks like it. There is a reason why so many legal experts have used the words "weak" and "flimsy" when describing the indictment and the state's case.
Of course, there are people to whom it may be demonstrated, that Zimmerman shot Martin out of self defense because he was in fact jumped, getting the snot kicked out of him and his head bashed into the ground and they will still not accept the shooting. All these people need to do, IMHO, is put themselves or their kids in Zimmerman's place.
If the facts and evidence shows otherwise and Zimmerman shot Martin not out of self defense I say put him away forever.
JJM
Can someone outline the facts in this case from the beginning? This all took place in a gated community? Did either of these men belong in that community? Why was Martin being followed by Z?
Quote from: vette on June 03, 2012, 10:11:48 AM
Can someone outline the facts in this case from the beginning? This all took place in a gated community? Did either of these men belong in that community? Why was Martin being followed by Z?
Zimmerman is a member of that community's neighborhood watch program. There had been reported incidents of burglary there.
Zimmerman seems like a guy with rent-a-cop syndrome.
When talking about the unique set of circumstances above I should have added that it may very well be that Martin didn't deserve to die and Zimmerman doesn't belong in jail.
Both could be true.
JJM
Ed,
Here's the timeline. Both men were entitled to be in the community. Zimmerman followed and confronted Martin because Zimmerman ignored the guidelines and instructions he had been given by the people who set of the community watch and the police on the phone.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-09/trayvon-martin-timeline-florida-shooting/54129274/1 (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-09/trayvon-martin-timeline-florida-shooting/54129274/1)
Jim,
An innocent unarmed man was killed by a deliberate gunshot. As such someone belongs in jail.
IMHO Zimmermanm stalked this young man and then murdered him
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 03, 2012, 10:37:11 AM
Ed,
Here's the timeline. Both men were entitled to be in the community. Zimmerman followed and confronted Martin because Zimmerman ignored the guidelines and instructions he had been given by the people who set of the community watch and the police on the phone.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-09/trayvon-martin-timeline-florida-shooting/54129274/1 (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-09/trayvon-martin-timeline-florida-shooting/54129274/1)
Jim,
An innocent unarmed man was killed by a deliberate gunshot. As such someone belongs in jail.
You mean to say if you're gonna kill me I can't kill you first? I can't defend myself even with lethal force If I feel my life is threatened?
The law says otherwise and we are a nation of laws.
JJM
Quote from: JimboWHO on June 03, 2012, 11:05:04 AM
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 03, 2012, 10:37:11 AM
Ed,
Here's the timeline. Both men were entitled to be in the community. Zimmerman followed and confronted Martin because Zimmerman ignored the guidelines and instructions he had been given by the people who set of the community watch and the police on the phone.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-09/trayvon-martin-timeline-florida-shooting/54129274/1 (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-09/trayvon-martin-timeline-florida-shooting/54129274/1)
Jim,
An innocent unarmed man was killed by a deliberate gunshot. As such someone belongs in jail.
You mean to say if you're gonna kill me I can't kill you first? I can't defend myself even with lethal force If I feel my life is threatened?
The law says otherwise and we are a nation of laws.
JJM
Jim,
In 26 years or tending to people that got into fist fights, I have not seen or has my squad tended to someone who was killed. Fist fights are almost never fatal especially for the bigger guy (Zimmerman outweighed Martin by quite a bit) and there is no martial arts trained fighters. So again the man that shot and killed an innocent unarmed man belongs in jail.
I reside in the state of Florida......there are major problems with the "stand your ground" law.
A few years ago a man shot and killed a kid whose only bad act was to try the flaming poop in a bag and ring the doorbell prank..
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 03, 2012, 11:08:34 AM
Quote from: JimboWHO on June 03, 2012, 11:05:04 AM
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 03, 2012, 10:37:11 AM
Ed,
Here's the timeline. Both men were entitled to be in the community. Zimmerman followed and confronted Martin because Zimmerman ignored the guidelines and instructions he had been given by the people who set of the community watch and the police on the phone.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-09/trayvon-martin-timeline-florida-shooting/54129274/1 (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-09/trayvon-martin-timeline-florida-shooting/54129274/1)
Jim,
An innocent unarmed man was killed by a deliberate gunshot. As such someone belongs in jail.
You mean to say if you're gonna kill me I can't kill you first? I can't defend myself even with lethal force If I feel my life is threatened?
The law says otherwise and we are a nation of laws.
JJM
Jim,
In 26 years or tending to people that got into fist fights, I have not seen or has my squad tended to someone who was killed. Fist fights are almost never fatal especially for the bigger guy (Zimmerman outweighed Martin by quite a bit) and there is no martial arts trained fighters. So again the man that shot and killed an innocent unarmed man belongs in jail.
Mighty
I respect your experience and training in the medical area but I'm suggesting your wisdom stops short of being a legal expert. The people in that field police, DA's office, etc (the one investigator notwithstanding) did not see anything that resembled "man kills innocent unarmed man (and) belongs in jail."
I will hold open the possibility that the eyewitnesses were wrong, Zimmerman staged his injuries, Zimmerman lied through his teeth with his version of events, his doctor is covering for him, all of that. But with all respect, you need all or most of these elements to be vindicated in your assertion that Martin was unjustifiably shot.
JJM
Jim,
I have to disagree. The reality is we have to believe rather far fetched and unlikely version of events to even begin to consider letting Zimmerman off from the homicide he committed. We know for a fact that Zimmerman stalked Martin. We have no indication that Martin jumped him as you claim.
As for the law this comes right out of it:
A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity, and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
1) It's reasonable to assert Zimmerman initiated the confrontation so he was "not attacked" as required by law
2) As I said a much larger man engaged in a fist fight does not have a reasonable expectation of death or serious bodily harm.
None of us were there, so no one knows what really happened. we are all subjecting our beliefs into what we want to think happened.
Just being a guy from the streets myself, I can see a scenario something like this happening.
Zimmerman, who thinks he is a junior G-Man, loves the idea of being on neighborhood patrol. see a Black man walking in a neighborhood where there had been some robberies. Zimmerman is probably a racist at heart, gets out of his car and confronts Martin. Martin, not shy about things, probably tells him to 'F--K off and mind his own business. This enrages Zimmerman who again thinks he is the town police, maybe grabs Martin as he is trying to walk away. Martin they takes a swing at Zimmerman, knocking him down and jumps on top of him. Zimmerman is scared, takes out his gun and bang, martin is dead.
According to my friend, an attorney, legally, Zimmerman did nothing wrong. He is allowed to carry a concealed weapon in Florida and he abided by the 'Stand your ground' law, also in Florida. We, in other states, look at this with a completely different mentality, but how can they try Zimmerman for murder if he was being assaulted and felt his life in danger. Regardless of ==who started the confrontation, who should have stayed in their car, who is a racist, who thinks they are junior G-Men???
Sure Zimmerman was wrong to confront Martin, but in HIS mind he felt he was trying to help the community. I really don't think he was out, riding around just looking for a Black man to shoot. In his state of mind, he was a wannabe cop, trying to help a community, beset by some robberies.
He sees a Black man, walking along, and if my understand is correct, Martin had no ID and no key to any house in the community, so how does Zimmerman know he is even from this particular area??.
I believe Zimmerman's only crime is that he took his so called job, way too seriously. Yes, he should have stayed in his car and waited for the police. But he didn't. Should he have confronted Martin, maybe yes, maybe no. But what happened at that confrontation no one will ever know. martin cannot speak and no one will truly believe Zimmerman.
When I first heard the story, I thought Zimmerman was being made a scapegoat for another of Al Sharpton's yearly rants. They I heard more info and seriously doubted Zimmerman's story, but after the new evidence has come out, including pictures of him from ABC news, and the eyewitness accounts that have come out and even Martin's own Father said it wasn't Martin's cry for help that were on the tape but probably Zimmerman's, my conclusion was Zimmerman isn't the brightest bulb in the box, but he has no business even being arrested and no way committed murder, at least not by Florida laws.
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 03, 2012, 01:46:28 PM
Jim,
I have to disagree. The reality is we have to believe rather far fetched and unlikely version of events to even begin to consider letting Zimmerman off from the homicide he committed. We know for a fact that Zimmerman stalked Martin. We have no indication that Martin jumped him as you claim.
As for the law this comes right out of it:
A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity, and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
1) It's reasonable to assert Zimmerman initiated the confrontation so he was "not attacked" as required by law
2) As I said a much larger man engaged in a fist fight does not have a reasonable expectation of death or serious bodily harm.
Mighty
My belief is that Lenn's summation above is pretty damn good. Very plausible.
I just don't know why it's reasonable only to assume Zimmerman initiated the confrontation. You have previously cited many facts, some of which do not reflect well on Zimmerman. I accept that. But aren't there additional facts that inform us about Martin? Martin was a kid that was in trouble in the months leading up to his death:
He was suspended three times from school. Last Oct. on the day following his suspension for graffitti (writing WTF on his school locker) the police visited him. The Miami Herald reports that he was caught with a 'burglary tool' (their words) - a flathead screwdriver - and 12 pieces of women's jewelry. Martin said a friend had given him the stuff but he refused to reveal the friend's name.
His suspension in Feb was as a result of finding a marijuana pipe and a bag with traces of pot on him.
The blog site called WAGIST and THE DAILY CALLER have claimed they unearthed evidence that Martin maintained a Twitter account with the handle NO_LIMIT_NIGGA. He tweeted about mostly daily life but also about guns;
'2 glock 40's... b**** you got 80 problems and smoking pot
'Finna (I'm fixing to) smoke 1 wit my dawg wayne.' The WAGIST claims to have found a message from Martin's cousin that implied Martin attacked a bus driver;
'Yu ain't tell me yu swung on a bus driver,' a user Tweeted to Travyon's alleged account five days before he was killed. The DAILY CALLER has found this as well. There are 152 pages of Twitter communication.
To me at least, there is just as much here to suggest Martin initiated the battle as Zimmerman.
JJM
Jim,
I disagree with what Len said. I see no way that Zimmerman is not guilty. I think we have reached a point to agree to disagree though.
Cheers,
Rich
Agreed =D> =D> =D>
I don't think Zimmerman is guilty of murder but of manslaughter. He is at least as guilty as someone who has had one too many at the local pub and has the misfortune of being involved in a traffic accident that wasn't his fault, but his blood alcohol level mandates that he be tried for manslaughter.
Again, a rent-a-cop with a concealed weapon has to share at least the same level of responsibility as a 'buzzed' driver for the 'accidental' loss of a human life. (Florida state laws notwithstanding).
Quote from: Derach on June 03, 2012, 06:57:13 PM
I don't think Zimmerman is guilty of murder but of manslaughter. He is at least as guilty as someone who has had one too many at the local pub and has the misfortune of being involved in a traffic accident that wasn't his fault, but his blood alcohol level mandates that he be tried for manslaughter.
Again, a rent-a-cop with a concealed weapon has to share at least the same level of responsibility as a 'buzzed' driver for the 'accidental' loss of a human life. (Florida state laws notwithstanding).
Sort of a poor analogy. There was nothing accidental about Zimmerman shooting Martin. He didn't accidently kill Martin like your 'buzzed' driver does.
Zimmerman, his injuries, and the eyewitnesses tell a story of Zimmerman screaming as he's being bashed by Martin. Zimmerman
intends to shoot Martin to save himself.
Separately, the theory of Zimmeman somehow attacking Martin just doesn't wash. Think about it - the guy with the gun doesn't assault somebody else. He's got a gun that can do all his talking. And why risk a struggle where the other guy gets hold of your gun? Doesn't make sense.
JJM
Quote from: JimboWHO on June 03, 2012, 09:33:17 PM
Quote from: Derach on June 03, 2012, 06:57:13 PM
I don't think Zimmerman is guilty of murder but of manslaughter. He is at least as guilty as someone who has had one too many at the local pub and has the misfortune of being involved in a traffic accident that wasn't his fault, but his blood alcohol level mandates that he be tried for manslaughter.
Again, a rent-a-cop with a concealed weapon has to share at least the same level of responsibility as a 'buzzed' driver for the 'accidental' loss of a human life. (Florida state laws notwithstanding).
Sort of a poor analogy. There was nothing accidental about Zimmerman shooting Martin. He didn't accidently kill Martin like your 'buzzed' driver does.
Zimmerman, his injuries, and the eyewitnesses tell a story of Zimmerman screaming as he's being bashed by Martin. Zimmerman intends to shoot Martin to save himself.
Separately, the theory of Zimmeman somehow attacking Martin just doesn't wash. Think about it - the guy with the gun doesn't assault somebody else. He's got a gun that can do all his talking. And why risk a struggle where the other guy gets hold of your gun? Doesn't make sense.
JJM
That's an interesting take but I cant help but think he is a coward. That pistol gave him the shot of courage he needed to confront the teenage boy. This was just a disingenuous attempt to be a tough guy that backfired and he ended up needing his pistol to bail himself out.
Quote from: jimmyz on June 04, 2012, 01:10:02 AM
Quote from: JimboWHO on June 03, 2012, 09:33:17 PM
Quote from: Derach on June 03, 2012, 06:57:13 PM
I don't think Zimmerman is guilty of murder but of manslaughter. He is at least as guilty as someone who has had one too many at the local pub and has the misfortune of being involved in a traffic accident that wasn't his fault, but his blood alcohol level mandates that he be tried for manslaughter.
Again, a rent-a-cop with a concealed weapon has to share at least the same level of responsibility as a 'buzzed' driver for the 'accidental' loss of a human life. (Florida state laws notwithstanding).
Sort of a poor analogy. There was nothing accidental about Zimmerman shooting Martin. He didn't accidently kill Martin like your 'buzzed' driver does.
Zimmerman, his injuries, and the eyewitnesses tell a story of Zimmerman screaming as he's being bashed by Martin. Zimmerman intends to shoot Martin to save himself.
Separately, the theory of Zimmeman somehow attacking Martin just doesn't wash. Think about it - the guy with the gun doesn't assault somebody else. He's got a gun that can do all his talking. And why risk a struggle where the other guy gets hold of your gun? Doesn't make sense.
JJM
That's an interesting take but I cant help but think he is a coward. That pistol gave him the shot of courage he needed to confront the teenage boy. This was just a disingenuous attempt to be a tough guy that backfired and he ended up needing his pistol to bail himself out.
I firmly believe that the main stream media (MSM) has come to the defense of the Martin family and has attempted to advance the narrative "innocent teen killed by reckless vigilante." A couple of off-the-cuff examples include the edited news report by NBC that had smeared Zimmerman;
This is how a NBC program portrayed a segment of Zimmerman's 911 call:
Zimmerman: This guy looks like he