There are teams that are consistently good and competitive
There are teams that are simply terrible and will constantly get high draft picks only to fail due to poor selections and, more importantly, a lack of development and continuity. These teams have hope. If they can fix their fundamental issue, they have the draft capital to turn things around.
Finally, there are teams trapped in the cycle of mediocrity. They are not bad enough to get the draft capital to draft the truly elite game-changers (although occasionally, they will luck into one). They are not good enough to break a cycle of being borderline playoff teams to being bad but not terrible teams. Teams tend to get trapped in this cycle. They don't get the game-changing players, and they are not bad enough to spur the sort of permanent change that makes the team good.
I feel like that is where the Giants have been trapped since the 2011 Super Bowl. The Mara's run the team like a mom-and-pop shop with no accountability. The team let their SB coaching staff go and hasn't properly replaced them. The medical and player acquisition staff have been sub-par for well over a decade.
I was hoping that a new HC and GM would change things and solve the core issues, but it appears that hasn't happened. Ronnie Barnes is still the VP of all things medical and the Maras (Chis and their nephew) still have major high-end roles in player acquisition. As a result, it appears the changes haven't been made.
There are two constants in this cycle, Barnes and Jones. Barnes still being employed is inexcusable at this point.
Quote from: True Blue on October 03, 2023, 10:25:57 AMThere are two constants in this cycle, Barnes and Jones. Barnes still being employed is inexcusable at this point.
The Giants have been bad since 2012. How exactly is "Jones" (drafted in 2019) a "constant"?
There's been a lot of instability. Think about this let's say the Giants fire Daboll after this season, he would be the 5th coach they've fired in a 9 year period. It's hard to have any stability or break the cycle of mediocrity if you're always changing coaches. This is why IMO to break this cycle they need to at least give Daboll the 2024 season regardless of how this season goes. No one of any quality is going to want a job with a franchise with a reputation of firing coaches once every two seasons.
I think mediocrity is pretty nice.
Outside of 2016 and last year, the team had been atrocious and has had plenty of high draft picks.
There have been multiple regime changes and overhauls of departments.
The Giants are not trapped in mediocrity like say the Vikings have been. They are in a cycle of blown high draft picks and awful team records.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 03, 2023, 10:29:05 AMI think mediocrity is pretty nice.
Outside of 2016 and last year, the team had been atrocious and has had plenty of high draft picks.
There have been multiple regime changes and overhauls of departments.
The Giants are not trapped in mediocrity like say the Vikings have been. They are in a cycle of blown high draft picks and awful team records.
This is a compelling counter-point.
There seems to be nonexistent talent evaluation leading to constant mediocrity.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 10:27:57 AMThere's been a lot of instability. Think about this let's say the Giants fire Daboll after this season, he would be the 5th coach they've fired in a 9 year period. It's hard to have any stability or break the cycle of mediocrity if you're always changing coaches. This is why IMO to break this cycle they need to at least give Daboll the 2024 season regardless of how this season goes. No one of any quality is going to want a job with a franchise with a reputation of firing coaches once every two seasons.
Stability is important. The challenge is knowing what to stand firm on to create that stability. The product on the field this season makes it tough to say Daboll is the foundation this franchise should be built.
This idea demeans the term mediocrity. We are much worse than that and have been for a long time.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 10:27:20 AMThe Giants have been bad since 2012. How exactly is "Jones" (drafted in 2019) a "constant"?
Despite most of my focus being on Barnes, you chose to ignore that and just go on the prowl over the golden boy, seriously?
He is on his 3rd HC, 3rd OC, 2nd GM, he has been here 5 years, he is absolutely a constant, sure some of the issues go further back, that is where Barnes comes in, this team year in and year our constantly has encountered a litany of injuries.
They need to move on and upgrade both of those guys, get a real OL coach too. No reason they have invested so much in this line and it still sucks. Two 1s, a 2 and 3, and several later picks, some of these guys may be busts, but how much of it is OL coaching?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 10:32:16 AMStability is important. The challenge is knowing what to stand firm on to create that stability. The product on the field this season makes it tough to say Daboll is the foundation this franchise should be built.
The lack of discipline and seemingly never being prepared to play falls directly on the coaching staff. Daboll needs to worry about getting a handle on that first and foremost. This will become more difficult when they're looking at very likely being 1-5.
Quote from: True Blue on October 03, 2023, 10:36:48 AMDespite most of my focus being on Barnes, you chose to ignore that and just go on the prowl over the golden boy, seriously?
He is on his 3rd HC, 3rd OC, 2nd GM, he has been here 5 years, he is absolutely a constant, sure some of the issues go further back, that is where Barnes comes in, this team year in and year our constantly has encountered a litany of injuries.
They need to move on and upgrade both of those guys, get a real OL coach too. No reason they have invested so much in this line and it still sucks
You are basing your commentary on a false premise. Jones was terrible last night; he was seeing ghosts. It looks like the Giants have broken him. What is being missed in your zeal to crucify Daniel Jones is the reality that Eli Manning suffered a similar fate during this period.
The Giants are looking up at mediocrity. They aspire to get there some day.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 10:32:16 AMStability is important. The challenge is knowing what to stand firm on to create that stability. The product on the field this season makes it tough to say Daboll is the foundation this franchise should be built.
Then you're never going to get anyone of any quality to take this job again with that much instability.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 10:38:44 AMYou are basing your commentary on a false premise. Jones was terrible last night; he was seeing ghosts. It looks like the Giants have broken him. What is being missed in your zeal to crucify Daniel Jones is the reality that Eli Manning suffered a similar fate during this period.
The difference is Eli Manning was at the end of his career with declining skills. Daniel Jones is in his 5th season which is supposed to be entering the prime of a QB's career. So it's not exactly the same situation.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 10:41:53 AMThen you're never going to get anyone of any quality to take this job again with that much instability.
The difference is Eli Manning was at the end of his career with declining skills. Daniel Jones is in his 5th season which is supposed to be entering the prime of a QB's career. So it's not exactly the same situation.
Eli Manning was just 32 when he won his second Super Bowl MVP. Hardly an age where QBs start to decline
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 10:44:33 AMEli Manning was just 32 when he won his second Super Bowl MVP. Hardly an age where QBs start to decline
And the rapid decline in his play didn't happen until 2017. He did have a bad 2013 but bounced back in 2014 to a point where he was throwing for 4,000 yards and 25+ TD's a season until 2017 when he was 36 years old.
It's the fact we've never rebuilt. We should have at the deadline traded Barkley, not retained Jones, and started the rebuild with Lawrence and Thomas as the core. The problem is that everyone was sold on the mirage that was last season and refused to see that we needed to start from scratch.
I know a few of us, Jones supporters and non Jones supporters were actively banging the table for a rebuild.
It's definitely coming this offseason.
George Young stated it best - "show me a struggling team and I will show you a team with a struggling offensive line".
Outside of Schmitz, Schoen ignored the OL in the Draft. There were plenty of prospects available but he passed.
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Quote from: todge on October 03, 2023, 11:00:37 AMGeorge Young stated it best - "show me a struggling team and I will show you a team with a struggling offensive line".
Outside of Schmitz, Schoen ignored the OL in the Draft. There were plenty of prospects available but he passed.
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The year is 2023 not 1985. Offensive line play is down throughout the league. There are plenty of teams with bad offensive line play that are still winning. The game has changed and that type of regressive thinking is how the Giants have ended up being as consistently bad as they've been for years.
Schoen in two drafts has spent a Top 10 pick and a 2nd round pick on linemen. There's only so much draft capital you can invest into one unit without it coming at the cost of other units.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 11:07:53 AMThe year is 2023 not 1985. Offensive line play is down throughout the league. There are plenty of teams with bad offensive line play that are still winning. The game has changed and that type of regressive thinking is how the Giants have ended up being as consistently bad as they've been for years.
Schoen in two drafts has spent a Top 10 pick and a 2nd round pick on linemen. There's only so much draft capital you can invest into one unit without it coming at the cost of other units.
Not to mention a 3rd and 6th on the UNC guys.
He hasn't not tried, maybe OL Coach isn't doing his job well, all these guys can't be busts
Quote from: todge on October 03, 2023, 11:00:37 AMGeorge Young stated it best - "show me a struggling team and I will show you a team with a struggling offensive line".
Outside of Schmitz, Schoen ignored the OL in the Draft. There were plenty of prospects available but he passed.
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Not according to an interesting stat that Troy Aikman brought up last night. No team has drafted more OL in the first 3 rounds than the Giants the past 3 seasons.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 03, 2023, 10:54:49 AMIt's the fact we've never rebuilt. We should have at the deadline traded Barkley, not retained Jones, and started the rebuild with Lawrence and Thomas as the core. The problem is that everyone was sold on the mirage that was last season and refused to see that we needed to start from scratch.
I know a few of us, Jones supporters and non Jones supporters were actively banging the table for a rebuild.
It's definitely coming this offseason.
I hope you are glad you were correct. You have mentioned it multiple times. We get it you were right and the rest of us were wrong.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 03, 2023, 10:54:49 AMIt's the fact we've never rebuilt. We should have at the deadline traded Barkley, not retained Jones, and started the rebuild with Lawrence and Thomas as the core. The problem is that everyone was sold on the mirage that was last season and refused to see that we needed to start from scratch.
I know a few of us, Jones supporters and non Jones supporters were actively banging the table for a rebuild.
It's definitely coming this offseason.
How has our talented but injury prone big ticket LT looked?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 11:30:48 AMHow has our talented but injury prone big ticket LT looked?
He was 2nd Team All Pro last season. Yes, he's been hurt this season but he is someone who was paid based upon his past performance not the future performance you were hoping to get but have never seen.
Quote from: todge on October 03, 2023, 11:00:37 AMGeorge Young stated it best - "show me a struggling team and I will show you a team with a struggling offensive line".
Outside of Schmitz, Schoen ignored the OL in the Draft. There were plenty of prospects available but he passed.
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He drafted three O linemen the year before, including one 7th overall, and he used the little money Gettleman left him on signing a starting guard. And then he drafted a center in the second round this year.
They have invested plenty in the O line.
Stuck in mediocrity? Other than last season, they've been sub 0.500. I'd say stuck in the cellar.
Quote from: todge on October 03, 2023, 11:00:37 AMGeorge Young stated it best - "show me a struggling team and I will show you a team with a struggling offensive line".
Outside of Schmitz, Schoen ignored the OL in the Draft. There were plenty of prospects available but he passed.
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The Giants certainly have invested heavily in the O-line. I think there reaches a point where you have to question the evaluation and development process.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 03, 2023, 11:27:32 AMI hope you are glad you were correct. You have mentioned it multiple times. We get it you were right and the rest of us were wrong.
I don't care to be right, I just want the team to win and a rebuild with a new hc, new gm should have been the way.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 11:30:48 AMHow has our talented but injury prone big ticket LT looked?
He hasn't looked like anything because he's been injured which happens.
I don't know that the offense looks any different with Barkley or AT in the game. They were both there for Philly last season and the Cowboys, and nothing changed.
They've been in a cycle of below mediocrity for about a decade. They never learn that when there is a regime change, that they need to break it all down and rebuild. Their half-ass measures: Gettleman trying to build around a declining Eli and now Schoen and Daboll keeping Jones and Barkley when they were valuable assets that could be dealt for capital to rebuild. You have to bite the bullet, clean it all out, and start over or this is what you get. A big part of the problem during all this is Mara. He wanted to keep it going with Eli. And again, with the Duke golden boy, Danny Jones. Let football people make the decisions.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 03, 2023, 02:18:33 PMI don't care to be right, I just want the team to win and a rebuild with a new hc, new gm should have been the way.
I think we all want things to go better. You say you don't care to be right and I believe you, but you have mentioned this in multiple threads. If being right doesnt matter it may come across better to the room to nor mention that you said they should rebuild earlier and repeat it several times.
Aikman said last night that the Giants have invested more high draft picks on the OL than any other NFL team in the past few years yet we still have maybe the worst OL in the league. We have reserves as starters and our backups are grocery baggers wearing Giants uniforms. That doesn't say much for our scouts and our GM.
I agree we never should have signed Jones for all that money. He played the hostage game and the Giants gave in. For what we are putting on the field, Taylor could do the same thing and we could have used that money to hopefully build up the line. The Giants should have made an offer that was sensible and held their guns and not cave. That is on Shoen, all the way.
Every few years, we catch some breaks and have a decent enough year, make the playoffs, and people are expecting a Super Bowl run in another year or two. It ain't going to happen.
For those who lived thru the terrible 60's, and 70's, we had some of the worst teams ever put on a football field, but every so often, we won a few games and had a halfway decent year and everyone thought we were out of the rut, but it never happened. Year in and year out we stunk and we are doomed to repeat that same thing now and in the future. Why, do we refuse to see the problem and change it, instead we try to patch it up. It may work once in a while but we enver get it right.
Another thought. We used to draft the BPA regardless, yet that has seriously changed in recent years. Fans clamored for help at WR and Gettleman moved down and we took Toney. On paper, it looked decent enough, but we passed over maybe the best defensive player in years, Parsons. He fell to us and look what he would have done to this defense, but no, everyone said we needed to get our QB help at WR, so Toney was drafted and our fate was sealed. If we had gone BPA, Parsons might be a Giant today. Same as when NO skipped over LT and drafted Rogers and the rest is history.
And, can we finally say Neal is on the threshold of being a bust? How could we get this so wrong?
6 degrees of separation '22-'23
(In no particular order)
1st: A rookie HC in New York, winning a playoff game and being named Coach of the Year (one of the worst things that could've happened)
2nd: Meddling Mara going public with his sympathy and vote of confidence for DJ, influencing the staff to help him redeem himself.
3rd: Selecting pass rushers on the ends who are light in the pants.
4th: Settling for Bobby Johnson to develop all of those high draft picks they invested in.
5th: God Bless him, I hope he lives for 70 more years, but sticking with McGaughey to lead special teams was wrong PERIOD!
6th: Smart, Tough and Dependable is not a business plan it's a slogan. Parcells and Bellichick had a business plan - Coughlin and Spagnola (when they we'rent being undermined by management) had a business plan.....YOU COULD SEE THEIR IDENTITY ON THE FIELD. - no one has executed a true business plan since.
*I think these guys are capable if they take their collective head out of their AZZ. Build the vision and the identity, those who buy in with their hair on fire and can perform are in, those who can't / won't (no matter where they were drafted) are OUT.*
First a reality check: THIS TEAM IS NOT A PLAYOFF TEAM, STOP PRETENDING AND CONTINUE BUILDING!
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Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 03, 2023, 04:49:46 PMI think we all want things to go better. You say you don't care to be right and I believe you, but you have mentioned this in multiple threads. If being right doesnt matter it may come across better to the room to nor mention that you said they should rebuild earlier and repeat it several times.
I brought it up because the title of the thread is cycle of mediocrity. We are in that because we've never rebuilt.
Didn't realize I repeated it in multiple threads other than to say I wanted the rebuild. Hell we could win the rest of our games and be completely wrong, but I was bringing it up to so that we could have a conversation about were things went wrong last year to cause all of this hype and now downfall so far this year into the same mediocrity.