If the team continues to play this bad over the next several weeks, it might be time to clean house and start over. I'm wondering if a contender would trade for Barkley near the trade deadline if he's healthy? I think after the season, Daniel Jones's contract is moveable and if the Giants have the chance to draft a can't miss QB, it might not be a bad idea to trade him. Jones is taking a beating and would benefit with a half decent OL with another team. I wonder if he hopes to be traded so he can have a chance to show what he can do? This would buy the Giants a couple more seasons to build the line with adequate back ups and develop a QB. I don't see the offensive line coming together for another couple of years, meaning Jones will be in his 7th season. How long can he keep going with the beating he takes almost every game?
I'm not trashing Jones or Barkley, but wonder if they'd still be around when the rest of the team is competitive.
Jim,
I am on the same page. I personally believe the season is over now, but if we fall to 1-5 it's definitely over. At that point in time, I would be fully in favor of putting various veterans (including Barkley) on the trade block and trying to build draft capital. This would help with filling holes and also as a means of trading up in the draft.
Under this strategic scenario I would be in favor of drafting a QB in the first round. Trading DJ in this offseason might be difficult given his massive 2024 cap hit, especially if his 2023 season continues to look like it has looked so far. More likely he'd still be a Giant in 2024 and, as far as I am concerned, would be the starter early in the season or potentially even for all of the season while the rookie spends up to a year practicing and learning. If DJ were to happen to play really well in 2024 in this situation, guess what, that's not a bad problem to have. You'd have two very marketable QBs at that point, which is very valuable. More likely though, we would move on from DJ after 2024 or potentially move him in late 2024, and the rookie would then take over. And since you would have potentially traded away some more expensive vets in 2023, your cap situation after 2024 would be pretty good and you could then target free agents that make sense then.
I appreciate that it's a shame we're in this position, but this team has a history of clinging to a failed project for multiple years too long. Schoen doesn't strike me as the type to hold on to a clearly losing poker hand, as he is sharp enough to know he's risking his job doing that. Unless the team does a 180 with it performance starting this Sunday and beyond, I think some version of the above is what you'll see happen.
I think these are over-reactions.
I think the Giants will revert back to the short passing game that was successful last season. It minimizes the deficiencies on the O-line and allows Jones to get the ball out quickly and build confidence. I truly do not understand why that wasn't the plan against Seattle to begin with. There was too much looking deep that resulted in scrambles or sacks while Daniel Jones finished the game completing almost 80% of his passes. Just take what is there!
Miami can score points. They also can't defend worth a crap. The Giants were going to have to steal a game somewhere to make the playoffs anyway. Why not start now? You want to throw deep? This is the game, but take the first downs underneath first.
I agree that 1-5 would be a tough hole to climb out of, but looking at the schedule at the start of the season, 1-5 was certainly possible, if not likely.
Quote from: bamagiantfan on October 04, 2023, 07:38:56 PMI think these are over-reactions.
I think the Giants will revert back to the short passing game that was successful last season. It minimizes the deficiencies on the O-line and allows Jones to get the ball out quickly and build confidence. I truly do not understand why that wasn't the plan against Seattle to begin with. There was too much looking deep that resulted in scrambles or sacks while Daniel Jones finished the game completing almost 80% of his passes. Just take what is there!
Miami can score points. They also can't defend worth a crap. The Giants were going to have to steal a game somewhere to make the playoffs anyway. Why not start now? You want to throw deep? This is the game, but take the first downs underneath first.
I agree that 1-5 would be a tough hole to climb out of, but looking at the schedule at the start of the season, 1-5 was certainly possible, if not likely.
Prior to week one, nobody here was saying 1-5 was the likely outcome after six games for this team. In the predictions thread, the vast majority of people who responded had 10 or more wins for this team. And nobody had fewer than 7 or 8. If you're 1-5 and you still have two games left against the Eagles and 1 against Dallas (in Dallas), you have close to zero chance of winning even 7 games, let alone enough to have a shot at a wildcard berth.
So what's the point of sticking to the status quo if we're in that position? You say it's an overreaction, but I am not basing my opinion of the QB on just this four game sample set. He's been here for four years before this one. It wasn't a clean slate going into this year, and I have never been of the opinion that 2022 was anything special from him. I think we know what he is at this point. Is the macro strategy now really to spread the $47mm 2024 cap hit on this guy out and lock ourselves in to even more years with him? Can you say with confidence right now that you fully support centering this franchise around Daniel Jones for the next 4-5 years? Or should we at least give ourselves some alternative options at this point?
Quote from: bamagiantfan on October 04, 2023, 07:38:56 PMI think these are over-reactions.
I think the Giants will revert back to the short passing game that was successful last season. It minimizes the deficiencies on the O-line and allows Jones to get the ball out quickly and build confidence. I truly do not understand why that wasn't the plan against Seattle to begin with. There was too much looking deep that resulted in scrambles or sacks while Daniel Jones finished the game completing almost 80% of his passes. Just take what is there!
Miami can score points. They also can't defend worth a crap. The Giants were going to have to steal a game somewhere to make the playoffs anyway. Why not start now? You want to throw deep? This is the game, but take the first downs underneath first.
I agree that 1-5 would be a tough hole to climb out of, but looking at the schedule at the start of the season, 1-5 was certainly possible, if not likely.
This is exactly what the Giants have been running all season the short passing game and Jones checking down and going to underneath routes. There is no looking down field or anticipating plays. The problem is not that they haven't gone to the short passing game but rather than it's become predictable where Jones is going with the ball.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 04, 2023, 08:03:36 PMThis is exactly what the Giants have been running all season the short passing game and Jones checking down and going to underneath routes. There is no looking down field or anticipating plays. The problem is not that they haven't gone to the short passing game but rather than it's become predictable where Jones is going with the ball.
Beat me to it.
Quote from: Philosophers on October 04, 2023, 09:29:38 PMBeat me to it.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 04, 2023, 08:03:36 PMThis is exactly what the Giants have been running all season the short passing game and Jones checking down and going to underneath routes. There is no looking down field or anticipating plays. The problem is not that they haven't gone to the short passing game but rather than it's become predictable where Jones is going with the ball.
I disagree. Checkdowns were the problem against Seattle. Short routes should have been option 1, not checkdowns. Watch the replay. Jones looks downfield and scrambles after two seconds, still looking for options. In the second half, Seattle adjusted to the Giants always going empty in the backfield and sent an extra rusher off the edge. There were not two seconds anymore. The ball needed to come out. Too me, the whole mess was on Kafka, not Jones.
Last year it was one step back, hit the back foot and the ball was out. James and Hodgins were constantly making catches on slants and quick curls. Now, they are getting greedy and the separation hasn't been there, or option one was a pass BEHIND the line of scrimmage. How is that going to work with this O-line?
One more thing, you can give Jones Travis Kelce, Tyreek Hill, and Stefon Diggs and throwing deep is not an option with this O-line and an empty set. It can't work.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 04, 2023, 06:56:26 PMJim,
I am on the same page. I personally believe the season is over now, but if we fall to 1-5 it's definitely over. At that point in time, I would be fully in favor of putting various veterans (including Barkley) on the trade block and trying to build draft capital. This would help with filling holes and also as a means of trading up in the draft.
Under this strategic scenario I would be in favor of drafting a QB in the first round. Trading DJ in this offseason might be difficult given his massive 2024 cap hit, especially if his 2023 season continues to look like it has looked so far. More likely he'd still be a Giant in 2024 and, as far as I am concerned, would be the starter early in the season or potentially even for all of the season while the rookie spends up to a year practicing and learning. If DJ were to happen to play really well in 2024 in this situation, guess what, that's not a bad problem to have. You'd have two very marketable QBs at that point, which is very valuable. More likely though, we would move on from DJ after 2024 or potentially move him in late 2024, and the rookie would then take over. And since you would have potentially traded away some more expensive vets in 2023, your cap situation after 2024 would be pretty good and you could then target free agents that make sense then.
I appreciate that it's a shame we're in this position, but this team has a history of clinging to a failed project for multiple years too long. Schoen doesn't strike me as the type to hold on to a clearly losing poker hand, as he is sharp enough to know he's risking his job doing that. Unless the team does a 180 with it performance starting this Sunday and beyond, I think some version of the above is what you'll see happen.
Who is going to trade for an injured RB who will be a free agent at year's end?
Quote from: Stringer Bell on October 04, 2023, 10:38:24 PMWho is going to trade for an injured RB who will be a free agent at year's end?
I'm not suggesting you'll get much for him, but the trade deadline isn't until the last day of this month, so in theory if he comes back in the next couple of weeks and has a decent game or two, he may have some degree of marketability to a contender looking for another playmaker.
So, what is Shoen and Daboll supposed to run around and panic. Now is the time to be more judicious in their moves at this point. The root of the problem is the OL, with Andrew Thomas and the promising C in JMS is only 40% of a somewhat functional OL, with the possibility of Bredeson might help. Ezeudu, Mckethan, Neal the jury is still out. I think Glowinski and Lemieux have no future here. And what does Pugh offer to a desperate situation? They have an OL coach who we have asked to perform miracles with the talent on hand with the possibility his job being in jeopardy.
On Defense, I have questioned whether the league has caught up with Winks D. They are still getting gashed up the middle. I thought there would be take a little time with the secondary starting 2 rookie corners and a S in Pinnock who also is lacking experience. A pass rush is pretty non existent all contribute to the less than stellar defensive play.
I'm not a fan of making moves for their own sake.
Quote from: bamagiantfan on October 04, 2023, 09:38:54 PMI disagree. Checkdowns were the problem against Seattle. Short routes should have been option 1, not checkdowns. Watch the replay. Jones looks downfield and scrambles after two seconds, still looking for options. In the second half, Seattle adjusted to the Giants always going empty in the backfield and sent an extra rusher off the edge. There were not two seconds anymore. The ball needed to come out. Too me, the whole mess was on Kafka, not Jones.
Last year it was one step back, hit the back foot and the ball was out. James and Hodgins were constantly making catches on slants and quick curls. Now, they are getting greedy and the separation hasn't been there, or option one was a pass BEHIND the line of scrimmage. How is that going to work with this O-line?
If Jones was looking downfield he'd see open receivers and go to them. He's not he's always looking for the quick shorter route.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on October 04, 2023, 10:38:24 PMWho is going to trade for an injured RB who will be a free agent at year's end?
Quote from: Giant Jim on October 04, 2023, 06:41:05 PM...I'm wondering if a contender would trade for Barkley near the trade deadline if he's healthy?...
Wasn't McCaffrey hurt when the Panthers dealt him last year? I know he had years left on his contract making the trade easier but that's not to say they couldn't get something for Barkley
Quote from: beaugestus on October 04, 2023, 11:57:30 PMSo, what is Shoen and Daboll supposed to run around and panic. Now is the time to be more judicious in their moves at this point. The root of the problem is the OL, with Andrew Thomas and the promising C in JMS is only 40% of a somewhat functional OL, with the possibility of Bredeson might help. Ezeudu, Mckethan, Neal the jury is still out. I think Glowinski and Lemieux have no future here. And what does Pugh offer to a desperate situation? They have an OL coach who we have asked to perform miracles with the talent on hand with the possibility his job being in jeopardy.
On Defense, I have questioned whether the league has caught up with Winks D. They are still getting gashed up the middle. I thought there would be take a little time with the secondary starting 2 rookie corners and a S in Pinnock who also is lacking experience. A pass rush is pretty non existent all contribute to the less than stellar defensive play.
I'm not a fan of making moves for their own sake.
It's not 40%. They need depth. When John Schmitz went down, the line went from poor to pathetic. Injuries are too common. This isn't the first time Thomas has been hurt. As for Neal, I wouldn't give up on him yet, but at this point, he's a big question mark. The team was and is being built wrong for at least 10 years now. Longer if you go back to Reese not reloading when the line started to get old. This is the 2nd time they reloaded with WR's & pass catching first TE's. It don't work. They're never going to win consistently until they have a decent line with adequate back ups and that's not going to happen in the next draft and free agent signing period.
I don't think the D needs nearly as much to fix.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 05, 2023, 07:08:43 AMWasn't McCaffrey hurt when the Panthers dealt him last year? I know he had years left on his contract making the trade easier but that's not to say they couldn't get something for Barkley
If memory serves he was coming off an injury or was on the very tail end of it.
In no way do I think the Giants will get anything like the McCaffrey package. My point is simply why not get whatever you can, even if it's very little, if you don't intend to sign or tag Barkley after this year and the season is clearly over? What's the point of not taking whatever you can get, even if it's just a fifth rounder? Do people really care about the difference between 5-12 and 6-11?
They're going to have to go through a period of lean years. There is very little talent on this team and I'm starting to question the coaching staff. Yes, it's time to clean house. It's something they should have done in the off-season. But I'm sure there was pressure from ownership after a playoff victory to keep the train moving. But the train has run off the tracks. Jones should have been franchised tagged and Barkley given a 2 to 3 year deal. Or let Daniel test free agency to see that other teams wouldn't come close to 40 million dollars. But the Giants are here now and they have to deal with the remainder of the season. Gotta see who can play, who will be around for 2024, and who will be dealt at the trading deadline. It's like my Mets dealing away players after investing heavily in salaries. They have to do it and position themselves for the future. Acquire picks, reduce cap hits, and figure out the talent. This season is done.
Quote from: Giant Jim on October 05, 2023, 07:11:33 AMIt's not 40%. They need depth. When John Schmitz went down, the line went from poor to pathetic. Injuries are too common. This isn't the first time Thomas has been hurt. As for Neal, I wouldn't give up on him yet, but at this point, he's a big question mark. The team was and is being built wrong for at least 10 years now. Longer if you go back to Reese not reloading when the line started to get old. This is the 2nd time they reloaded with WR's & pass catching first TE's. It don't work. They're never going to win consistently until they have a decent line with adequate back ups and that's not going to happen in the next draft and free agent signing period.
I don't think the D needs nearly as much to fix.
Again the Giants have invested a ton of draft capital into the offensive line. I'm done spending another 1st or 2nd round pick on it. Every team in the league that has a good line has invested less and gotten more out of their players. The scouting and coaching is what needs to change before I spend another premium draft pick on it.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 05, 2023, 10:23:03 AMAgain the Giants have invested a ton of draft capital into the offensive line. I'm done spending another 1st or 2nd round pick on it. Every team in the league that has a good line has invested less and gotten more out of their players. The scouting and coaching is what needs to change before I spend another premium draft pick on it.
They're on their 4th head coach, 5th if you count the end of Coughlin's run. How many offensive assistants? None of them could make it work. The line needed to be fixed or invested in for over 10 years. How many linemen left here and were successful with other teams? You think they should continue to build with this foundation and bring in more WR's and pass catching, no-block TE's? Neal and the rest of the 2022 draft were scouted by Gettleman's scouting staff, so Schoen deserves more time.
No, I'm not tired of drafting linemen with 1st and 2nd round picks. And I won't be until the can build a line and system that can form a pocket, open holes for running backs and push opposing defenses back in short yardage plays.
The offense looks completely lost in the 1st half of every game so far.
They haven't looked much better in the 2nd half, but they have scored 9 points in 8 quarters of 1st half play.
Thst speaks to game planning and preparation.
Further, when you have an offense that is struggling to score, when you get down 2 scores in the 2nd half it adds to the difficulty.
Special teams play hasn't helped and -8 T/O differential is killer. The defense has not gotten a single takeaway.
The reality is the Giants have a serious talent problem at nearly every position. What broad unit on the team (secondary, O line, QB, D line, etc) do you feel genuinely confident and good about from a talent perspective from the top of the depth chart to the bottom? Is there even a single one?
Feel pretty good about the DL if we are talking about the 3-4 base D.
After that, not so much.
Quote from: Giant Jim on October 05, 2023, 10:48:36 AMThey're on their 4th head coach, 5th if you count the end of Coughlin's run. How many offensive assistants? None of them could make it work. The line needed to be fixed or invested in for over 10 years. How many linemen left here and were successful with other teams? You think they should continue to build with this foundation and bring in more WR's and pass catching, no-block TE's? Neal and the rest of the 2022 draft were scouted by Gettleman's scouting staff, so Schoen deserves more time.
No, I'm not tired of drafting linemen with 1st and 2nd round picks. And I won't be until the can build a line and system that can form a pocket, open holes for running backs and push opposing defenses back in short yardage plays.
I think they should change the line coach and how they are scouting linemen. The Giants have too many holes on the rest of the roster on both sides of the ball to spend another set of high draft picks on linemen. Spending more high draft picks on linemen is going to lead to the same result of a flawed roster.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 05, 2023, 11:48:16 AMI think they should change the line coach and how they are scouting linemen. The Giants have too many holes on the rest of the roster on both sides of the ball to spend another set of high draft picks on linemen. Spending more high draft picks on linemen is going to lead to the same result of a flawed roster.
It may, but until they can block our division rivals, it won't really matter what the rest of the roster looks like.
If its coaching, then get the right coach in place. This team is its 5th OL coach since 2016. Switching the coach hasn't been the solution either.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 05, 2023, 12:47:08 PMIt may, but until they can block our division rivals, it won't really matter what the rest of the roster looks like.
If its coaching, then get the right coach in place. This team is its 5th OL coach since 2016. Switching the coach hasn't been the solution either.
The rest of the roster is just as important and just as much of an issue especially the defense that lacks a consistent pass rush and isn't good in the secondary or LBers. Let's say they spend another top 10 pick on a linemen and it improves the line next season......at the same time it comes at the cost of passing on a needed defensive player or play making receiver they lack. Where does that leave the Giants? Not much better than they are now.
That was schoen ie buffalo's Achilles heal, they couldn't draft Dlinemen or olinemen ever to save themselves. The invested tons into both lines and still are having to go into FA to get the von miller's etc.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 05, 2023, 12:51:45 PMThe rest of the roster is just as important and just as much of an issue especially the defense that lacks a consistent pass rush and isn't good in the secondary or LBers. Let's say they spend another top 10 pick on a linemen and it improves the line next season......at the same time it comes at the cost of passing on a needed defensive player or play making receiver they lack. Where does that leave the Giants? Not much better than they are now.
Unless you build an all-time defense this team isnt winning many games scoring 11.5 pts/game. And let's face it, they put up 31 in the 2nd half of one game for most of of those 46. So outside of that game they are averaging 5 pts/game.
That's obviously not all on the OL, and I am not saying they need to use 1st rounders ,but they need to get that group to where they can block Philly and dallas. Those teams live off of line superiority on both sides of the ball.
Regardless of what they have spent in the past to draft sign or whatever else, the line stinks.
I think you would agree it might be a little easier on the defense if the offense had scored even a couple of TDs in the 1st half of games. Especially given our DCs style of defense.
The secondary has two rookies starting. They have some things to learn but given they are rookies they look pretty good. We will see if they learn as they play, but personally I think the safeties are more of an issue. McKinney looks like he regressed and Pinnock over pursues regularly.
Is the QB not changing calls part of the issue for the OL? Is it coaching? Do you think this team, when healthy has 5 guys that are starting caliber OL?
I have to say their inability to pick up stunts and twists seems like a preparation issue, not ability. Is that the coach or the players? Or both?
This post is all over the place and long, sorry about that
Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 05, 2023, 01:14:00 PMUnless you build an all-time defense this team isnt winning many games scoring 11.5 pts/game. And let's face it, they put up 31 in the 2nd half of one game for most of of those 46. So outside of that game they are averaging 5 pts/game.
That's obviously not all on the OL, and I am not saying they need to use 1st rounders ,but they need to get that group to where they can block Philly and dallas. Those teams live off of line superiority on both sides of the ball.
Regardless of what they have spent in the past to draft sign or whatever else, the line stinks.
I think you would agree it might be a little easier on the defense if the offense had scored even a couple of TDs in the 1st half of games. Especially given our DCs style of defense.
The secondary has two rookies starting. They have some things to learn but given they are rookies they look pretty good. We will see if they learn as they play, but personally I think the safeties are more of an issue. McKinney looks like he regressed and Pinnock over pursues regularly.
Is the QB not changing calls part of the issue for the OL? Is it coaching? Do you think this team, when healthy has 5 guys that are starting caliber OL?
I have to say their inability to pick up stunts and twists seems like a preparation issue, not ability. Is that the coach or the players? Or both?
This post is all over the place and long, sorry about that
Right now the Giants are being outscored 46-122 through 4 games. They're 32nd in points scored and 30th in points allowed. The defense has been just as much of an issue (though not as much Monday night) as the offense. In the 49'ers game they couldn't get off the field on 3rd down. It's hard for the offense to get into a rhythm if they are barely on the field.
I'm not trying to argue the offensive line isn't an issue that doesn't need to get fixed I am arguing that trying to fix it with more premium investments at the expense of other areas of need is not going to change much when you are as bad as they have been in all areas.
O line is definitely a big issue as we have only one tackle on the team who isn't horrible, and we have no good guards and a rookie center.
That said with thomas and schmitz in there it's less bad than without them, so as they get healthy things should improve. But sadly it looks like we're going to be in the market for a tackle again. Amazing that thats the case after using two top 10 picks on the position in just two years.
I've been following the Giants since the late 60's and from '64 to about '83, they had the poorest offensive lines and about the worst records each year. From about the mid 70's to '83, including LT's first few seasons, they had a top defense and still lost. They started winning consistently around '84 when the offensive line came together and continued winning until George Young failed to keep it together in the early days of free agency. It took until after Eli Manning was here to build the line back.
Look at all the running backs that did well during the years of strong line play. Phil Simms blossomed when the line came together, Joe Morris too. Tom Coughlin was able to plug and play a number of different running backs. Look what Tiki Barber did with the mediocre lines he played with. Remember how he hit the holes on the right side? Barkley doesn't get holes any where close to what Barber had.
Offensive lines make defenses better. Running plays eat the clock and keep the D off the field. They're also safer than passing plays, can't have interceptions, tipped balls, fumbles from sacks, etc.
11 sacks last week? 22 in 4 games? Never, ever going to win like this.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 05, 2023, 01:23:57 PMRight now the Giants are being outscored 46-122 through 4 games. They're 32nd in points scored and 30th in points allowed. The defense has been just as much of an issue (though not as much Monday night) as the offense. In the 49'ers game they couldn't get off the field on 3rd down. It's hard for the offense to get into a rhythm if they are barely on the field.
I'm not trying to argue the offensive line isn't an issue that doesn't need to get fixed I am arguing that trying to fix it with more premium investments at the expense of other areas of need is not going to change much when you are as bad as they have been in all areas.
I'm at work and admittedly didn't look this up, but 30th in points given up is slightly overstated, as how many points have been given up by the offense or special teams, either directly (punt block for TD, INT for TD) or indirectly (Jones fumble deep in our territory)? I am not absolving the defense of anything here, but the points against is heavily influenced by deficiencies in the offense and special teams for sure.
Quote from: ViewFromSection129 on October 05, 2023, 02:40:01 PMI'm at work and admittedly didn't look this up, but 30th in points given up is slightly overstated, as how many points have been given up by the offense or special teams, either directly (punt block for TD, INT for TD) or indirectly (Jones fumble deep in our territory)? I am not absolving the defense of anything here, but the points against is heavily influenced by deficiencies in the offense and special teams for sure.
You have a point. The D is ranked 19th in yards allowed which is how O/D are ranked, not by points.
Quote from: TDToomer on October 05, 2023, 03:08:29 PMYou have a point. The D is ranked 19th in yards allowed which is how O/D are ranked, not by points.
Either way the D is bad. Also factor in they are in the bottom third on defense in third down conversions. There is a lot of work needed on that side of the ball.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 04, 2023, 06:56:26 PMJim,
I am on the same page. I personally believe the season is over now, but if we fall to 1-5 it's definitely over. At that point in time, I would be fully in favor of putting various veterans (including Barkley) on the trade block and trying to build draft capital. This would help with filling holes and also as a means of trading up in the draft.
Under this strategic scenario I would be in favor of drafting a QB in the first round. Trading DJ in this offseason might be difficult given his massive 2024 cap hit, especially if his 2023 season continues to look like it has looked so far. More likely he'd still be a Giant in 2024 and, as far as I am concerned, would be the starter early in the season or potentially even for all of the season while the rookie spends up to a year practicing and learning. If DJ were to happen to play really well in 2024 in this situation, guess what, that's not a bad problem to have. You'd have two very marketable QBs at that point, which is very valuable. More likely though, we would move on from DJ after 2024 or potentially move him in late 2024, and the rookie would then take over. And since you would have potentially traded away some more expensive vets in 2023, your cap situation after 2024 would be pretty good and you could then target free agents that make sense then.
I appreciate that it's a shame we're in this position, but this team has a history of clinging to a failed project for multiple years too long. Schoen doesn't strike me as the type to hold on to a clearly losing poker hand, as he is sharp enough to know he's risking his job doing that. Unless the team does a 180 with it performance starting this Sunday and beyond, I think some version of the above is what you'll see happen.
for the life of me I cannot remember the Giants ever having a fire sale to rebuild. Its not in their DNA
usually the HC takes the first expulsion....followed by rollercoaster years somehow leading up to another SB
victory
Quote from: BluesCruz on October 05, 2023, 05:56:02 PMfor the life of me I cannot remember the Giants ever having a fire sale to rebuild. Its not in their DNA
usually the HC takes the first expulsion....followed by rollercoaster years somehow leading up to another SB
victory
They are too conservative an organization. They do what is safe. They don't think outside the box. The Mara family has always been stodgy. It's held the franchise back. Only George Young broke the mold. And he was an outsider.
George Young was the only one that was allowed to run the team without Mara interference. I'm not saying fire sale. It's not surprising they probably never had a fire sale. It's more common in baseball and hockey. If Schoen is really running the team, the past should have no bearing on what happens now. If they have no intention of resigning Barkley, maybe they should trade him. Jones would be a decision for after the season ends. If they're not in a position to get a top prospect in the draft, then it's probably best to keep Jones and hope the line comes together next year. I wouldn't be surprised if he wants to leave. How many different head and assistant coaches has he had? There's got to be a point that he will want to play in a balanced team with stable management.
I don't think anyone has said fire sale.
I do think it is reasonable though, if we fall to 1-5, to take inventory of costlier veteran players with some value and make some effort to determine who is realistically part of the future plans and who isn't. That's what a responsible, competent front office does. For example, are they going to re-sign Adoree Jackson after this season, given the array of young corners they currently have? Are they going to sign the injury-prone and aging Barkley? Are they going to re-sign Leo? Are they going to pay the underperforming McKinney? I don't know all these answers, but I suspect Schoen does.
Trading players just for the sake of trading them is pointless, and that has been inaccurately framed as a message in this thread, and it is a straw man claim. I have not seen anyone suggest that. However when one's season is clearly over (I think we can all agree that at 1-5 it would be), I don't see how it's in the best interests of the organization to refrain from being strategic sellers at the deadline, particularly of players who are not in the long term plans. What is the point of that? If it's to try to cobble out a 6-11 or 7-10 season instead of being 4-13 or 5-12, that is a poor reason and is a typical John Mara type of move. They need to own the situation they're in and take charge of it. Not keep trying to put band-aids on gunshot wounds and keep up appearances by striving for short term mediocrity at the expense of future maximization.
The short passing game is out of self preservation due to a putrid OL..obviously. Women that never care about football even know what's coming.
They can't run or pass. Stats don't lie and the defense will eventually collapse under the strain badly. This edition is inept on so many levels that 6 wins would seem miraculous :o
Quote from: Giant Jim on October 04, 2023, 06:41:05 PMIf the team continues to play this bad over the next several weeks, it might be time to clean house and start over. I'm wondering if a contender would trade for Barkley near the trade deadline if he's healthy? I think after the season, Daniel Jones's contract is moveable and if the Giants have the chance to draft a can't miss QB, it might not be a bad idea to trade him. Jones is taking a beating and would benefit with a half decent OL with another team. I wonder if he hopes to be traded so he can have a chance to show what he can do? This would buy the Giants a couple more seasons to build the line with adequate back ups and develop a QB. I don't see the offensive line coming together for another couple of years, meaning Jones will be in his 7th season. How long can he keep going with the beating he takes almost every game?
I'm not trashing Jones or Barkley, but wonder if they'd still be around when the rest of the team is competitive.
There isn't such a thing as a "can't miss QB".
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: todge on October 05, 2023, 11:43:22 PMThere isn't such a thing as a "can't miss QB".
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Of course but there are the rare elite just about lock talents like Elway, Aikman, Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck. Those you can't pass on when you have a QB that is questionable as to whether they are the guy to lead you to a championship which is a position the Giants are in.
Schoen had to be looking at 2024 as early as last year. There are players who he knew would not be back and those on a watchlist. Davidson is an up and coming player to replace Leo. Saquon will not be tagged again. They will draft a replacement or he will accept a much lower contract. Adoree' will find more money elsewhere. The Jury is still out in McKinney. Glowinski is gone and so is Peart.
I don't see a rebuild. I see Schoen progressing with his plan of a three year build. Which looks like five years right now.
If the next couple of games go as expected, Barkley could be playing for Cleveland or somewhere else by November
Quote from: todge on October 05, 2023, 11:43:22 PMThere isn't such a thing as a "can't miss QB".
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
OK, How about a hot prospect. The point is, should they start over if they have the chance with a younger QB if one is available or continue building on what they have right now with their current QB that has been taking a beating a beating for 5 years now and probably take a beating next year too?
Clearly there are never 100% guarantees. That doesn't mean you don't try though (obviously), nor does it mean you settle for mediocrity. Especially at a number like $40mm per. You can get mediocrity for 1/4 of that or less.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 06, 2023, 07:10:19 AMSchoen had to be looking at 2024 as early as last year. There are players who he knew would not be back and those on a watchlist. Davidson is an up and coming player to replace Leo. Saquon will not be tagged again. They will draft a replacement or he will accept a much lower contract. Adoree' will find more money elsewhere. The Jury is still out in McKinney. Glowinski is gone and so is Peart.
I don't see a rebuild. I see Schoen progressing with his plan of a three year build. Which looks like five years right now.
Schoen is always looking ahead. I remember at last year's deadline after the Toney trade he said that one of the factors they considered with collecting draft capital was factoring in the draft class they were collecting picks to draft from. He has consistently preached the compete today while build for tomorrow. That means he's likely never going to intentionally tank a season to get a high pick. If he was going to do that in any season it would have been last year when he had little cap space to work with in his first season where regardless of what he did he had the job security to get through it.
Tank means lose on purpose to move up spots in the draft. Trading Barkley during a lost season wouldn't mean they're trying to lose games. It would give other RB's on the team a chance to show what they can do and add either young players or draft picks.
Quote from: Giant Jim on October 06, 2023, 09:20:46 AMTank means lose on purpose to move up spots in the draft. Trading Barkley during a lost season wouldn't mean they're trying to lose games. It would give other RB's on the team a chance to show what they can do and add either young players or draft picks.
Barkley has missed a fair amount of time or been limited enough to where we see what the Giants have in other RB's (Gray excluded). Trading him would be more about collecting assets to build with moving forward should this season look to be lost by the trade deadline.
Barkley is not going to be with the team next year. I would almost be shocked if he was.
If they are out of the playoff picture at the end of October and they can trade him, it's not a fire sale, it's good management.
Quote from: Giant Jim on October 04, 2023, 06:41:05 PMIf the team continues to play this bad over the next several weeks, it might be time to clean house and start over. I'm wondering if a contender would trade for Barkley near the trade deadline if he's healthy? I think after the season, Daniel Jones's contract is moveable and if the Giants have the chance to draft a can't miss QB, it might not be a bad idea to trade him. Jones is taking a beating and would benefit with a half decent OL with another team. I wonder if he hopes to be traded so he can have a chance to show what he can do? This would buy the Giants a couple more seasons to build the line with adequate back ups and develop a QB. I don't see the offensive line coming together for another couple of years, meaning Jones will be in his 7th season. How long can he keep going with the beating he takes almost every game?
I'm not trashing Jones or Barkley, but wonder if they'd still be around when the rest of the team is competitive.
By clean house are you talking players or coaching etc.
I think last year everybody was concerned if Kafta or Wink took a job with another team. I was as well. But Dabell must grow as a head coach and deal with his staff...if coaches are not getting the job done . move on from them ...what is going on now is not good.
It is one of two things ....poor coaching ( to regress this much) or draft staff including GM are not getting good players.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 07, 2023, 07:56:05 AMBarkley is not going to be with the team next year. I would almost be shocked if he was.
If they are out of the playoff picture at the end of October and they can trade him, it's not a fire sale, it's good management.
If this is the case then why aren't they giving Gray offensive snaps to see is he is a future #1? Every team seems to break in a rookie RB but us and our #1 guy has been out 2 straight weeks. It's beyond frustrating.
Quote from: Woody on October 07, 2023, 08:51:49 AMBy clean house are you talking players or coaching etc.
I think last year everybody was concerned if Kafta or Wink took a job with another team. I was as well. But Dabell must grow as a head coach and deal with his staff...if coaches are not getting the job done . move on from them ...what is going on now is not good.
It is one of two things ....poor coaching ( to regress this much) or draft staff including GM are not getting good players.
Players that may not be productive 2 or 3 seasons form now. In Jones case, how much confidence do you think he'll have playing behind this terrible line another 2 seasons? Will he be damaged? Coaches are for another thread.
Quote from: Giant Jim on October 07, 2023, 04:40:51 PMPlayers that may not be productive 2 or 3 seasons form now. In Jones case, how much confidence do you think he'll have playing behind this terrible line another 2 seasons? Will he be damaged? Coaches are for another thread.
No matter what if Jones doesn't improve upon his overall 2022 season in either 2023 or 2024 he'll be gone after 2024.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 07, 2023, 04:45:54 PMNo matter what if Jones doesn't improve upon his overall 2022 season in either 2023 or 2024 he'll be gone after 2024.
Yeah 6-11 record and 15 TDs passsing will lead to a change.
Quote from: Philosophers on October 07, 2023, 05:08:12 PMYeah 6-11 record and 15 TDs passsing will lead to a change.
If the Giants do that and that's all Jones ends up with they should be in the position to draft a QB next spring. That's all hypothetical though.
People who should be on the block:
Barkley
Jones
Ojulari
Jackson
Mckinney
Waller
Is trade all of them, the only real dead cap we would have is 11 million the next 2-3 seasons for Jones and the assets in return for those guys could reshape our future.
They won't clean house again. Here's why:
*You don't know how much it bothers John Mara to quickly cycle through GM's and Head Coaches. He prides himself on running a stable, longterm organization and part of that means not reacting to the ebbs and flows - even bad years. You trust the people you hire and give them time to sink their teeth in. McAdoo, Gettleman, Shurmur & Judge flamed out so quickly, the absolute last thing he wants is to swap another regime out after 2 years.
*Injuries to key players will get them an easy pass. A bad record would hurt, but then "cooler heads prevail" and it's rationalized: Waller's hamstring acted up, Thomas got hurt on the opening drive (unreal), Barkley got hurt week 2 and Schmitz week 4.
*Something Mara said back in 2017, during the fall-out benching Eli, Mara said bluntly "Who quarterbacks this team is my decision." It was a rare look into the ultimate control he has over this franchise and his willingness to exert it for the really important decisions. And honestly - I have no problem with that. It's his team. If I was the owner I'd want final say, too. My point? If it turns out DJ's not the guy, I don't think Mara holds that against Schoen since Mara was likely part of the groupthink to bring Jones (and Barkley) back.
*The absolute most that could happen (IMO) - barring them going full-blown Judge meltdown - is Mara's patented demanding a coordinator's head - as he did Hufnagel & Gilbride. Right now, Mike Kafka better hope Northwestern's still there, because he's in the crosshairs. And hiring a guy averaging 1.5 points a game at home doesn't exactly bring the wow factor.
Plenty of time to play out of it - but this team (and a lot of individuals on it, career-wise) need Thomas and Barkley back healthy.
Every year except before the 2022 season, it's the same crap. Sign free agents and draft position players to fill voids from the previous season. I thought Mara would let Schoen break that MO and build the team year by year to steadily improve, instead of fixing just what's wrong with the previous year's team the following spring. For the 2024 season, they need to look to 2026 which means several of their top players won't be here. Stop drafting WR's, RB's and catch first/no block TE's. What players on the lines and the remainder of the D will be here in '26? The offensive line and QB are where you start so they can develop. After that, you fill in the rest of the D. Of course, if a good blocking TE with good hands comes across, you grab him.
A guard here, a running back there and a couple of WR's there every year doesn't cut it. Need to build a foundation, a core, not just patches.
Jim - I'm with you - keep investing in infrastructure until you're dominant. However - over the last 5 years, the Giants have drafted more OL in the top 3 rounds than any team in the NFL.
I wish the fix was as simple as investing, but there seems to be an organizational failure around the OL that spans many GMs, coaches and players. You see some of these other patchwork OLs around the league, like SEA's last week, with an inexperienced coordinator and they are putting a professional product on the field.
Something is very wrong here and it's not just personnel.
They have been historically been so bad over the first 4 games and with a pessimistic outlook today that I suppose it's not a surprise that some folks would "throw in the towel" and talk of a "break up and start over". Nothing could be sillier than that.
This team has more talented players than did last season's playoff game winning team. The problem on Defense is less one of a talent than it is of underperformance. That can and must be corrected which is up to the players and much as it is to the staff.
It would be hard to suggest that on Offense, the talent at Receiver is not notably better than it has been. And while the absence of Barkley, so far this year as will almost surely be so next year, it is and will be an issue moving ahead, the most pressing of such is at Quarterback.
It will be essential to determine what exactly is Daniel Jones's capability when and if playing behind an Oline which to date has gone from inadequate to disaster. That is the key issue on which all other decisions will hinge. And so for that reason, it can't be hurried, it can't be a product of desperation or surrender. As painful as it may be, it will take most if not all of the season, for Schoen/ Daboll to gather the necessary and indispensable facts. The last thing we should want is for them to start behaving like one of us.
Cheers!