Big Blue Huddle

I must admit I was happy when I saw a deal not get done.  I saw this as a referendum on Schoen.  Would he give in and give SB too much, or would he trust in the value calculation and say this is what we think the correct value is in this market.  To me, he passed with flying colors.

SB is gambling massively by missing time this preseason or even sitting out a game(s).  First, the fans are going to be all over him.  He is going to have to produce huge stats this year, or the fans will boo his every bad play.  Second, missing camp makes him more an injury risk, which then puts his future earnings potential even more at risk than it is now.

In short, if Schoen truly offered something like $22MM guaranteed and something like $11-12MM a year, SB made a huge mistake.  We likely will never know what the real "final offer" was, as everything coming out now are likely smoke screens. But I hope we do. I still think Schoen played this well though, as I do think that the parameters as we have heard are probably pretty close to reality.

Quote from: Philosophers on July 17, 2023, 02:04:48 PMAll the folks here who are 100% focused only on the numbers and thinking only about every comparable RB contract as compared to an offer to Saquon are completely missing all the intangibles about Barkley that he brings to this team in terms of a mindset and leadership that any good team needs to win a championship.  That is why IMHO the Giants continue to try to get this done.  They know without his top 3 RB play + Leadership, they have a huge void.  Every ex-Giant getting quoted on the internet talks about his competitiveness, etc. which manifests itself in everything, not just football.  He plays ping pong to destroy everyone in the locker room.  He tries to out lift everyone in the weight room.  Each of those little things teaches others in the lockerroom (especially the rookies and 2nd year players) what 100% commitment is.  That is an extremely important ingredient to winning a SB.  People follow Leaders.

I agree they want to get something done, but I suspect they have an upper limit and they will not exceed that.  I know Saquon is a good soldier and player, but the facts are the facts with the RB salaries.  Giants are bidding against themselves and they have to stop at a certain point.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 17, 2023, 01:18:13 PMPlax: "It's gonna be a bad day in New Jersey" (if Saquon isn't signed by 4pm today):


https://twitter.com/awthentik/status/1680969490685673474

It was also a bad day in Jersey when you decided to bring a loaded gun to a club and shot yourself, causing us a great opportunity to win back to back Super Bowls.  So pipe down.  Your commentary isn't interesting to me.  (Not commentary directed to you DaveBrown.... just commenting on Plax.  Thank you for posting that).

Here is what is interesting to me... reports are that Tony Pollard is going to play on the tag and no meaningful contract discussions between him and the Cowboys occurred.  He isn't getting the big money either.  So Saquon needs to get his head out of his ass.  My contract proposal is $12MM a year and $25MM guaranteed at most.  Like 4 for $45-48MM.  That is more than fair.

I admit I have a ton of problems seeing how Barkley "holds all the cards".  I read an article yesterday, I think on CBS sports, that said the same thing.  I see him holding zero cards quite honestly.  If the Giants both pay him like $13-14MM and guarantee a lot of money, they are insane.  Sign Cook or someone else for a reasonable contract in 2023 and for one year and see what you have in Gray.  The Giants are not winning the SB this year anyway.  Then draft another RB in the mid rounds next year.  I could make a case to draft an RB every other year at worst in the mid rounds.

I like Barkley.  I would love to have him here.  But I am not overpaying the market just because I like him.  The market for him (my opinion) is like $10-12MM a year and maybe 50% guaranteed.  Anything more than that would not be smart. Giants should be assuming they would want to keep him like two more years or so before his decline starts.

I really believe that the Giants and Barkley will come to an agreement that works for both.  The Giants hold most of the cards, so they can ask Saquon which bone would he like tossed to him to save face.  If you want a high AAV, then you are getting little guaranteed money.  You take a reasonable contract, then you get a lot of guaranteed money. But you aren't getting both no matter what.  If the Giants cave, then Schoen looks like an idiot. 

My guess.... 4 for $44MM with $25-30MM guaranteed.  That is still more than I believe he should get, and what the market is dictating, but you can't realistically give him less than the tag in AAV...

I feel like Saquon is doing all he can to try and change the realities of the RB market and talk people into paying him more.  The problem is that you cannot compare him to DJ or Dex.  Just like you can't compare me to the CEO of my company.  I will never be paid like he is, no matter how much I think he doesn't deserve what he gets and I deserve more.

I still maintain that the Giants can offer Saquon 4 for $60MM.  But with very very little guaranteed, so he would be gone in two years.  Or he can take around 4 for $40MM with like $25MM guaranteed, and be here 3-4 years.  He can't have both.

He plays a position that has been de-emphasized and where people prioritize the OL to the RB.  That is just reality, no matter what he thinks.  He says he is aware of the market and thinks he deserves more, but that doesn't make it happen.

Quote from: Ed Vette on May 30, 2023, 12:45:19 PMI'd offer him one comparable to the top four contracts for RB's and be able to get out after two seasons. Give him an injury guarantee before the start of the third season along with some guaranteed money of that third year salary.

4 years
16 million bonus
11 million base salary
20 million guaranteed at signing
28 million practical guaranteed

I think this is right on.  If he wants more guaranteed, then the total value must come down.  If he wants total value, then guaranteed must come down.  He can't get both unless the Giants screw up.

4 for $40-$44MM with like $25-30MM guaranteed.... so he is here three years minimum for a reasonable cap hit.

4 for $56MM if he wants to go the total value route, but I would give him like $15MM guaranteed at most and lower salaries in years 1 and 2, so the Giants can get out halfway through (just like with Jones if he does not progress).

Quote from: Giant Jim on May 30, 2023, 03:56:09 PMIf Shepard makes the team and gets major snaps, he'll be the go to target ahead of Hodgins.

I will be very unhappy if Shepard is anywhere near this team.  While we don't have top end talent at WR, we make up for it with depth.  There are at least six WRs that are either better than him or have enticing upside potential that I would prefer make the team before Shepard.  Campbell, Ford-Wheaton, Hodgins, Hyatt, Collin Johnson, Wandale.  That doesn't even include Slayton, who I honestly couldn't care less if he was here or not (although I doubt they would cut him) or a possible signing of Hopkins.

Why move to Thursday if a bunch of fans aren't watching on Amazon anyway?

Like I said in another thread... greedy ass owners trying to collect every penny.  I didn't watch one Thursday night game this year on Amazon and didn't even miss it. Maybe I will just not care about the wild card game too.  Owners better watch out... they could lose fans this way.

I have no idea why we are even debating $14MM for Saquon.  That ship long sailed.  I would be annoyed for anything above his tag number to be honest.

If I was a franchise, I would take a RB in the late rounds every other year at worst and build up a stable of guys.  Once their rookie contracts are over, they take a very team friendly deal or they move on.

Quote from: kingm56 on May 11, 2023, 01:28:14 PMWhat numbers are you comparing?  DJs 4th year to Hurts 1st? If so, the numbers are fairly similar. However, There's zero comparison between Hurts MVP-type '22 season and DJs, especially when you factor Hurts injuries. 

2022 to 2022 for both.  The numbers above are not that different.  Yes, Hurts has better numbers, but he had a much better team around him as well.  I am not saying DJ is better than Hurts, I am just saying that the numbers are much closer than you would expect.

Giants vs. Jets should be on Monday, September 11th.  Nothing else needs to be said.  Big miss from the NFL on that.

I know what direction you were going with in this thread, but what I take from the numbers above is that for all the advantages that Hurts had (OL, WR, TE, etc), his numbers were not massively better than DJ's.  I know it was different offenses, DJ threw short a lot, etc... but look at the numbers.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 10, 2023, 11:45:35 AMThey sort of stumbled on the draft becoming a big event.  I agree, now they are trying to get lightning to strike twice with anything they can.  To me, the efforts to hype the schedule are way too obvious to the point of being embarrassing.

Even the draft is too much.  There is so much schtick, too much trying to establish the NFL in every corner of the globe... can we just make the picks and talk about them?  They want the draft to be an event and cater everything to the casual fans (like the Super Bowl) but they are turning off their real fans one by one.