Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Gmo11 on October 06, 2023, 10:02:51 AMIf there is a completely unaccounted for blitzer/DE it's almost always the QBs fault. Most starting QBs in the NFL are capable of either shifting the blocking to the overload side, or be aware that there is an unblocked man and adjust his decision making on that play accordingly.  If you see Jones dropping back to pass completely unaware of an untouched blitzer...that's his fault.  If the blitzers are all accounted for but Evan Neal completely whiffs on his block as he is want to do...that's on the OL.

Again, I disagree. Look at the naked bootleg against SF where NO ONE blocks the reigning defensive player in the league. Whether Bellinger was suppose to or not is irrelevant. Its very poor play design and a TE not doing his job. Jones was sacked before he could even carry out the bootleg.

Look at the fumble Jones had. I do agree - he is responsible for the fumble, but look at the first part of the play. An unblocked DE comes clean because Shane Lemieux is like 10 minutes late pulling to try to block him. Jones is hit immediately. How can you blame Jones for these plays?

The corner blitz you can blame Jones 100%. But when you get hit and sacked within 2 seconds - you have to realize the problem isnt the QB. When your RBs average 3.0 YPC - you cannot blame the QB all the time.

People here are clamoring for more shots down the field. Its physically cannot happen. The WRs cannot run routes 35-40 yards down field if the QB is sacked within 2 seconds. You cannot throw a WR open if they arent looking or finished with their route.

And yes - you can point to a few plays where they are missed. 2 out of 30-35-40 times is very little. And plus if you dont think QBs are affected when they are hit and knocked down consistently - then we need to be a little more open minded.

And this isnt one game with Jones. He stunk against Seattle - we all saw it. But if you watch every QB in the league. When they get time and can set their feet - plays are made. When they are hurried, pressure, and forced to move the pocket 85-90% of the plays - they will struggle. It is pretty simple.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 10:30:23 AMAgain, I disagree. Look at the naked bootleg against SF where NO ONE blocks the reigning defensive player in the league. Whether Bellinger was suppose to or not is irrelevant. Its very poor play design and a TE not doing his job. Jones was sacked before he could even carry out the bootleg.

Look at the fumble Jones had. I do agree - he is responsible for the fumble, but look at the first part of the play. An unblocked DE comes clean because Shane Lemieux is like 10 minutes late pulling to try to block him. Jones is hit immediately. How can you blame Jones for these plays?

The corner blitz you can blame Jones 100%. But when you get hit and sacked within 2 seconds - you have to realize the problem isnt the QB. When your RBs average 3.0 YPC - you cannot blame the QB all the time.

People here are clamoring for more shots down the field. Its physically cannot happen. The WRs cannot run routes 35-40 yards down field if the QB is sacked within 2 seconds. You cannot throw a WR open if they arent looking or finished with their route.

And yes - you can point to a few plays where they are missed. 2 out of 30-35-40 times is very little. And plus if you dont think QBs are affected when they are hit and knocked down consistently - then we need to be a little more open minded.

And this isnt one game with Jones. He stunk against Seattle - we all saw it. But if you watch every QB in the league. When they get time and can set their feet - plays are made. When they are hurried, pressure, and forced to move the pocket 85-90% of the plays - they will struggle. It is pretty simple.

I am still wondering what was supposed to happen on that play.  Bellinger certainly took a stance like he was going to try and block Bosa from getting to the outside.  Jones looked like he was taking a 7 step drop. 

Someone didn't execute properly there. 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think Jones is the only problem, but I think he is part of the problem. That CB blitz is a glaring example.  The hot read was wide open from the side of the blitz and Jones never saw it coming.  So if getting hit fast is going to rattle him or any QB and cause them to not play their best, he is compounding his own issue by not reading a defense well. 

I agree that having Lemieux pull to block a DE and not come close to getting there is a play calling issue.  The same thing happened to Bredeson.  Its a tough block and the coaches need to understand their personnel's limitations. 

There is too many misses by Jones to not consider him a big part of the issue right now.  If he is responsible for making the blocking adjustments at the line, then he is really deficient in that regard.  If it's someone else's responsibility, I would wonder why. 

Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 06, 2023, 10:42:09 AMI am still wondering what was supposed to happen on that play.  Bellinger certainly took a stance like he was going to try and block Bosa from getting to the outside.  Jones looked like he was taking a 7 step drop. 

Someone didn't execute properly there. 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think Jones is the only problem, but I think he is part of the problem. That CB blitz is a glaring example.  The hot read was wide open from the side of the blitz and Jones never saw it coming.  So if getting hit fast is going to rattle him or any QB and cause them to not play their best, he is compounding his own issue by not reading a defense well. 

I agree that having Lemieux pull to block a DE and not come close to getting there is a play calling issue.  The same thing happened to Bredeson.  Its a tough block and the coaches need to understand their personnel's limitations. 

There is too many misses by Jones to not consider him a big part of the issue right now.  If he is responsible for making the blocking adjustments at the line, then he is really deficient in that regard.  If it's someone else's responsibility, I would wonder why. 

You're right Jones is part of the problem. We have a lot of major problems. And that MY problem...lol.

Nothing is working offensively. We cant run, pass, block, or scheme. Its not good.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 10:30:23 AMAgain, I disagree. Look at the naked bootleg against SF where NO ONE blocks the reigning defensive player in the league. Whether Bellinger was suppose to or not is irrelevant. Its very poor play design and a TE not doing his job. Jones was sacked before he could even carry out the bootleg.

Look at the fumble Jones had. I do agree - he is responsible for the fumble, but look at the first part of the play. An unblocked DE comes clean because Shane Lemieux is like 10 minutes late pulling to try to block him. Jones is hit immediately. How can you blame Jones for these plays?

The corner blitz you can blame Jones 100%. But when you get hit and sacked within 2 seconds - you have to realize the problem isnt the QB. When your RBs average 3.0 YPC - you cannot blame the QB all the time.

People here are clamoring for more shots down the field. Its physically cannot happen. The WRs cannot run routes 35-40 yards down field if the QB is sacked within 2 seconds. You cannot throw a WR open if they arent looking or finished with their route.

And yes - you can point to a few plays where they are missed. 2 out of 30-35-40 times is very little. And plus if you dont think QBs are affected when they are hit and knocked down consistently - then we need to be a little more open minded.

And this isnt one game with Jones. He stunk against Seattle - we all saw it. But if you watch every QB in the league. When they get time and can set their feet - plays are made. When they are hurried, pressure, and forced to move the pocket 85-90% of the plays - they will struggle. It is pretty simple.

Again you are ignoring the fact that the QB especially a veteran QB has pre snap responsibilities and should have the awareness to recognize if a blitz is coming and adjust accordingly.  If you watch enough games of other teams you see the elite ones doing so.  As GMO pointed out if the adjustment is made pre snap and someone like Neal or another player on the line misses their block it's a different story nothing you can do about that as a QB.

And BTW you can absolutely throw to a WR before they break their route or aren't looking at the time the ball is released.  It's called anticipating how the play is going to develop.  I showed you the video of Eli doing so with Slayton.  When the ball was released Slayton wasn't open yet Eli put the ball in a perfect spot anticipating Slayton would be there when the ball got there.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 06, 2023, 10:42:09 AMThere is too many misses by Jones to not consider him a big part of the issue right now.  If he is responsible for making the blocking adjustments at the line, then he is really deficient in that regard.  If it's someone else's responsibility, I would wonder why. 

That's what I  would like to know.  We rarely if ever see Jones make pre-snap adjustments.  Is that because the coaches have taken that responsibility away from him or because he is choosing not too?

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 09:57:24 AMQBs arent robots. Some of those sacks I disagree with. Not recognizing a blitz, not throwing a ball away losing a yard - sure, you can definitely pinpoint that on Jones.

Jones is in a no win situation with a lot of people and "experts". If he gets rid of the ball quickly, he isnt taking chances down field and not going through his reads. If he holds onto the ball, and then gets sacked - he gets blame for holding onto the ball and not making quicker decisions.

This is what I know for sure. If he is getting sacked 6+ times a games (it may have been more last week) in 2 seconds or under. I am not blaming the QB. If an edge or DE hits our QB unblocked - thats not on the QB.

What I find amusing from these "experts" is they fail how many sacks Jones got out of from poor blocking a sif it doesnt matter. I bet he avoided another 6-10 more Seattle where some other QBs would have been sack. But do they give him credit for that? Nah...

Just a question for you, and I'm asking this respectfully and am not looking to get into any sort of debate, but just curious about this:

Let's assume for a second that the Giants in fact do move on from Jones (either after this year or after next year). Do you see him ever being a high end starter for someone else?

Quote from: Gmo11 on October 06, 2023, 10:02:51 AMIf there is a completely unaccounted for blitzer/DE it's almost always the QBs fault. Most starting QBs in the NFL are capable of either shifting the blocking to the overload side, or be aware that there is an unblocked man and adjust his decision making on that play accordingly.  If you see Jones dropping back to pass completely unaware of an untouched blitzer...that's his fault.  If the blitzers are all accounted for but Evan Neal completely whiffs on his block as he is want to do...that's on the OL.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 06, 2023, 10:47:35 AMAgain you are ignoring the fact that the QB especially a veteran QB has pre snap responsibilities and should have the awareness to recognize if a blitz is coming and adjust accordingly.  If you watch enough games of other teams you see the elite ones doing so.  As GMO pointed out if the adjustment is made pre snap and someone like Neal or another player on the line misses their block it's a different story nothing you can do about that as a QB.

And BTW you can absolutely throw to a WR before they break their route or aren't looking at the time the ball is released.  It's called anticipating how the play is going to develop.  I showed you the video of Eli doing so with Slayton.  When the ball was released Slayton wasn't open yet Eli put the ball in a perfect spot anticipating Slayton would be there when the ball got there.

Exactly. Football is a game of chess and Jones is out there playing checkers. He got away with it last year (to an extent) but it's caught up to him this year.

In my view Jones doesn't have the mental processing speed to play QB at a high level against a high level of competition. What I think is happening out there now is that Jones is compensating by thinking so far ahead on a given play that he has trouble seeing the basics when the offense lines up. He's struggling with QB 101 concepts.

Daboll and company have to figure out a way to get him back to the basics of being a semi-competent game manager.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 06, 2023, 11:06:07 AMJust a question for you, and I'm asking this respectfully and am not looking to get into any sort of debate, but just curious about this:

Let's assume for a second that the Giants in fact do move on from Jones (either after this year or after next year). Do you see him ever being a high end starter for someone else?

Could he be? Yes. But it would have to be on a team like SF or Philly. They have a lot of top end talent that could mask Jones' weaknesses.

I dont think he could go a middling team and make them a contender.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:15:00 AMCould he be? Yes. But it would have to be on a team like SF or Philly. They have a lot of top end talent that could mask Jones' weaknesses.

I dont think he could go a middling team and make them a contender.

This is all the Giants need to know, to know what their next move should be.

Quote from: True Blue on October 06, 2023, 11:18:18 AMThis is all the Giants need to know, to know what their next move should be.

Unless they actually get good players. But this process is going to take awhile.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:21:46 AMUnless they actually get good players. But this process is going to take awhile.

They have good players, they can add all the good players they want. If DJ is the QB it has become evident that it likely will not matter.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:21:46 AMUnless they actually get good players. But this process is going to take awhile.

Ok, so we are acknowledging Jones is a QB that needs to be propped up rather than an elite QB who elevates his team.  And again this is a 5th year QB we are discussing with almost 60 NFL starts in his career.

Quote from: True Blue on October 06, 2023, 11:27:35 AMThey have good players, they can add all the good players they want. If DJ is the QB it has become evident that it likely will not matter.

What good players do they have?

I am very curious to hear this.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 06, 2023, 11:40:06 AMOk, so we are acknowledging Jones is a QB that needs to be propped up rather than an elite QB who elevates his team.  And again this is a 5th year QB we are discussing with almost 60 NFL starts in his career.

There are only 2 elite QBs in the league that dont need to be propped up by their teammates. Finding them is extremely hard. Many QBs play are elevated by their surrounding casts.

IMO

We have 1 Elite player, and 2 very good players on the defense and offense combined. And 2 of those 3 have been missing for now the majority of the season.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:40:41 AMWhat good players do they have?

I am very curious to hear this.

Thomas and Barkley to start.  Waller, Robinson and Hyatt if you can actually get them the ball and not always looking to go underneath or check down.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:41:50 AMThere are only 2 elite QBs in the league that dont need to be propped up by their teammates. Finding them is extremely hard. Many QBs play are elevated by their surrounding casts.

Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert and even Lawrence at this point are the elite QB's in the league who while they aren't perfect or aren't prone to bad games consistently elevate their teams and are productive.