Time to Clean House and start over?

[ViewFromSection129]

Right now the Giants are being outscored 46-122 through 4 games.  They're 32nd in points scored and 30th in points allowed.  The defense has been just as much of an issue (though not as much Monday night) as the offense.  In the 49'ers game they couldn't get off the field on 3rd down.  It's hard for the offense to get into a rhythm if they are barely on the field.

I'm not trying to argue the offensive line isn't an issue that doesn't need to get fixed I am arguing that trying to fix it with more premium investments at the expense of other areas of need is not going to change much when you are as bad as they have been in all areas.

I'm at work and admittedly didn't look this up, but 30th in points given up is slightly overstated, as how many points have been given up by the offense or special teams, either directly (punt block for TD, INT for TD) or indirectly (Jones fumble deep in our territory)?  I am not absolving the defense of anything here, but the points against is heavily influenced by deficiencies in the offense and special teams for sure.

[TDToomer]

I'm at work and admittedly didn't look this up, but 30th in points given up is slightly overstated, as how many points have been given up by the offense or special teams, either directly (punt block for TD, INT for TD) or indirectly (Jones fumble deep in our territory)?  I am not absolving the defense of anything here, but the points against is heavily influenced by deficiencies in the offense and special teams for sure.

You have a point. The D is ranked 19th in yards allowed which is how O/D are ranked, not by points.

[Rambo89]

You have a point. The D is ranked 19th in yards allowed which is how O/D are ranked, not by points.

Either way the D is bad.  Also factor in they are in the bottom third on defense in third down conversions.  There is a lot of work needed on that side of the ball.

[BluesCruz]

Jim,

I am on the same page. I personally believe the season is over now, but if we fall to 1-5 it's definitely over. At that point in time, I would be fully in favor of putting various veterans (including Barkley) on the trade block and trying to build draft capital. This would help with filling holes and also as a means of trading up in the draft.

Under this strategic scenario I would be in favor of drafting a QB in the first round. Trading DJ in this offseason might be difficult given his massive 2024 cap hit, especially if his 2023 season continues to look like it has looked so far. More likely he'd still be a Giant in 2024 and, as far as I am concerned, would be the starter early in the season or potentially even for all of the season while the rookie spends up to a year practicing and learning. If DJ were to happen to play really well in 2024 in this situation, guess what, that's not a bad problem to have. You'd have two very marketable QBs at that point, which is very valuable. More likely though, we would move on from DJ after 2024 or potentially move him in late 2024, and the rookie would then take over. And since you would have potentially traded away some more expensive vets in 2023, your cap situation after 2024 would be pretty good and you could then target free agents that make sense then.

I appreciate that it's a shame we're in this position, but this team has a history of clinging to a failed project for multiple years too long. Schoen doesn't strike me as the type to hold on to a clearly losing poker hand, as he is sharp enough to know he's risking his job doing that. Unless the team does a 180 with it performance starting this Sunday and beyond, I think some version of the above is what you'll see happen.

for the life of me I cannot remember the Giants ever having a fire sale to rebuild.  Its not in their DNA

usually the HC takes the first expulsion....followed by rollercoaster years somehow leading up to another SB
victory

[katkavage]

for the life of me I cannot remember the Giants ever having a fire sale to rebuild.  Its not in their DNA

usually the HC takes the first expulsion....followed by rollercoaster years somehow leading up to another SB
victory

They are  too conservative an organization. They do what is safe. They don't think outside the box. The Mara family has always been stodgy. It's held  the franchise back. Only George Young broke the mold. And he was an outsider.

[Giant Jim]

George Young was the only one that was allowed to run the team without Mara interference. I'm not saying fire sale. It's not surprising they probably never had a fire sale. It's more common in baseball and hockey. If Schoen is really running the team, the past should have no bearing on what happens now. If they have no intention of resigning Barkley, maybe they should trade him. Jones would be a decision for after the season ends. If they're not in a position to get a top prospect in the draft, then it's probably best to keep Jones and hope the line comes together next year. I wouldn't be surprised if he wants to leave. How many different head and assistant coaches has he had? There's got to be a point that he will want to play in a balanced team with stable management.

[DaveBrown74]

I don't think anyone has said fire sale.

I do think it is reasonable though, if we fall to 1-5, to take inventory of costlier veteran players with some value and make some effort to determine who is realistically part of the future plans and who isn't. That's what a responsible, competent front office does. For example, are they going to re-sign Adoree Jackson after this season, given the array of young corners they currently have? Are they going to sign the injury-prone and aging Barkley? Are they going to re-sign Leo? Are they going to pay the underperforming McKinney? I don't know all these answers, but I suspect Schoen does.

Trading players just for the sake of trading them is pointless, and that has been inaccurately framed as a message in this thread, and it is a straw man claim. I have not seen anyone suggest that. However when one's season is clearly over (I think we can all agree that at 1-5 it would be), I don't see how it's in the best interests of the organization to refrain from being strategic sellers at the deadline, particularly of players who are not in the long term plans. What is the point of that? If it's to try to cobble out a 6-11 or 7-10 season instead of being 4-13 or 5-12, that is a poor reason and is a typical John Mara type of move. They need to own the situation they're in and take charge of it. Not keep trying to put band-aids on gunshot wounds and keep up appearances by striving for short term mediocrity at the expense of future maximization.

[spiderblue43]

The short passing game is out of self preservation due to a putrid OL..obviously. Women that never care about football even know what's coming.

They can't run or pass. Stats don't lie and the defense will eventually collapse under the strain badly. This edition is inept on so many levels that 6 wins would seem miraculous 

[todge]

If the team continues to play this bad over the next several weeks, it might be time to clean house and start over. I'm wondering if a contender would trade for Barkley near the trade deadline if he's healthy? I think after the season, Daniel Jones's contract is moveable and if the Giants have the chance to draft a can't miss QB, it might not be a bad idea to trade him. Jones is taking a beating and would benefit with a half decent OL with another team. I wonder if he hopes to be traded so he can have a chance to show what he can do? This would buy the Giants a couple more seasons to build the line with adequate back ups and develop a QB. I don't see the offensive line coming together for another couple of years, meaning Jones will be in his 7th season. How long can he keep going with the beating he takes almost every game?

I'm not trashing Jones or Barkley, but wonder if they'd still be around when the rest of the team is competitive.

There isn't such a thing as a "can't miss QB".


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[Rambo89]

There isn't such a thing as a "can't miss QB".


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Of course but there are the rare elite just about lock talents like Elway, Aikman, Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck.  Those you can't pass on when you have a QB that is questionable as to whether they are the guy to lead you to a championship which is a position the Giants are in.

[Ed Vette]

Schoen had to be looking at 2024 as early as last year. There are players who he knew would not be back and those on a watchlist. Davidson is an up and coming player to replace Leo. Saquon will not be tagged again. They will draft a replacement or he will accept a much lower contract. Adoree' will find more money elsewhere. The Jury is still out in McKinney. Glowinski is gone and so is Peart.

I don't see a rebuild. I see Schoen progressing with his plan of a three year build. Which looks like five years right now.

[uconnjack8]

If the next couple of games go as expected,  Barkley could be playing for Cleveland or somewhere else by November

[Giant Jim]

There isn't such a thing as a "can't miss QB".


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OK, How about a hot prospect. The point is, should they start over if they have the chance with a younger QB if one is available or continue building on what they have right now with their current QB that has been taking a beating a beating for 5 years now and probably take a beating next year too?

[DaveBrown74]

Clearly there are never 100% guarantees. That doesn't mean you don't try though (obviously), nor does it mean you settle for mediocrity. Especially at a number like $40mm per. You can get mediocrity for 1/4 of that or less.

[Rambo89]

Schoen had to be looking at 2024 as early as last year. There are players who he knew would not be back and those on a watchlist. Davidson is an up and coming player to replace Leo. Saquon will not be tagged again. They will draft a replacement or he will accept a much lower contract. Adoree' will find more money elsewhere. The Jury is still out in McKinney. Glowinski is gone and so is Peart.

I don't see a rebuild. I see Schoen progressing with his plan of a three year build. Which looks like five years right now.

Schoen is always looking ahead.  I remember at last year's deadline after the Toney trade he said that one of the factors they considered with collecting draft capital was factoring in the draft class they were collecting picks to draft from.  He has consistently preached the compete today while build for tomorrow.  That means he's likely never going to intentionally tank a season to get a high pick.  If he was going to do that in any season it would have been last year when he had little cap space to work with in his first season where regardless of what he did he had the job security to get through it.