Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 26, 2022, 03:38:23 PMDaboll and Kafka like Jones on a schedule. When we win he typically throws it for 27-30 times for a 180 yards and 0-1 Tds. It's when he's asked to throw more than that is when we lose typically. Because him throwing less means the ground game is working and if the ground game isn't working we typically lose.

Normally I'd agree with you but Barkley was averaging 6.0 yards per carry last game, which means the ground game was working, yet they only ran it 14 times.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 26, 2022, 04:06:49 PMNo disrespect taken at all. I appreciate the discussion and all of the points you are making.

I agree with you in spirit about not being willing to ignore data, but I do not think that just looking at sack numbers by themselves tells you all you need to know about how a line is doing in pass pro. If that were the case, then we would also be ignoring the data about how long Jones holds the ball. We would also be ignoring the fact that Jones is playing in a new scheme that may result in more sacks, as a price to pay for a benefit seen elsewhere. As a possible example of said benefit, Jones' INT rate is down significantly year-on-year. Could it be possible that Daboll and co have instructed him to try to avoid turnovers at all costs, even if it means taking more sacks? Do you know for sure that that is not the case?

To be clear, I am not saying I am definitely right and you are definitely wrong. I just don't think evaluating an O line's pass pro is as cut and dry down to sack rate as you do.

I did look at time to throw when folks were throwing 5 seconds around.  And saw that his time in the pocket was more like 2.5 seconds and the 5 seconds was due to how often he was running for his life. 

Obviously I don't 'know for sure' what he is being coached to do, - none of us do - but I think if Daboll was coaching him to avoid turnovers he would emphasize throwing the ball away, rather than taking sacks.  But that's just a surmise.

IAC that is all speculation, while the 40% increase in sacks is a hard number.  And I'm an empirical guy. 

I think Thomas is an excellent tackle but besides him I don't see anyone on our OL who is above average or, in most cases, even average when to comes to pass pro.  Neal has so far been a disappointment in that regard, particularly since his pass pro was supposed to be his strength, but he's just a rookie and can (hopefully) improve.  But the interior line is still a mess.

I'm copying this whole post and pasting it as a reply in the DJ thread to honor the mods wishes, plus it is a little off the topic of the thread

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 12:16:44 PMIt's year 4.  He's had multiple Head Coaches, Coordinators and players around him.  At some point it needs to be about him.

For some context, the Giants have 6 games with NFC East teams all of which are in the top 10 in pass defense and with stud pass rushers.

Throw in the Packers at #3, the Bears at #12 and the Texans at #13.  Thats 8 games against the top half of the NFL versus stout pass defenses.  Make it 9 games with the game this week vs the Colts who is ranked #10 in pass defense and #11 in team sacks.  That's not too shabby considering we've only started to open up the passing game 2 weeks ago against Washington.

https://youtu.be/2hRZ30wF0Ss

Even Tynes went out on a limb and argued that DJ was the better QB on the field that game.  Give DJ Jefferson and he would have passed for 400 yards easy that game against the Vikings.  He showed command of the offense, decisive, made/extended plays with his legs and took some shots down the field.  His one glaring mistake was throwing the ball behind Hodgins which led to the pick.  But that's where with better talent like a shifter WR like Wan'Dale would create separation or even Slayton who is faster would leave and aging Peterson in the dust. 

Quote from: GMenRF on December 26, 2022, 07:47:05 PMFor some context, the Giants have 6 games with NFC East teams all of which are in the top 10 in pass defense and with stud pass rushers.

Throw in the Packers at #3, the Bears at #12 and the Texans at #13.  Thats 8 games against the top half of the NFL versus stout pass defenses.  Make it 9 games with the game this week vs the Colts who is ranked #10 in pass defense and #11 in team sacks.  That's not too shabby considering we've only started to open up the passing game 2 weeks ago against Washington.

https://youtu.be/2hRZ30wF0Ss

Even Tynes went out on a limb and argued that DJ was the better QB on the field that game.  Give DJ Jefferson and he would have passed for 400 yards easy that game against the Vikings.  He showed command of the offense, decisive, made/extended plays with his legs and took some shots down the field.  His one glaring mistake was throwing the ball behind Hodgins which led to the pick.  But that's where with better talent like a shifter WR like Wan'Dale would create separation or even Slayton who is faster would leave and aging Peterson in the dust. 

Kirk Cousins had a 4,000+ yard 70 comp % 29 TD 2015 season with no 1,000 yard receiver.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 08:02:36 PMKirk Cousins had a 4,000+ yard 70 comp % 29 TD 2015 season with no 1,000 yard receiver.

Trent Williams - LT
Alfred Morris - RB (made his second pro bowl albeit as a replacement to McCoy)
Garcon, Crowder and DJax - WRs
Jordan Reed - TE was 48 yards shy of 1K yards receiving (eventually made the Pro Bowl in 2016)

Most importantly their OC was Sean McVay

If you compare that with DJ.  The talent level at WR and TE is still not comparable to what we have now.  Two of whom were pick ups from Practice Squads of other teams.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 26, 2022, 07:04:01 PMI did look at time to throw when folks were throwing 5 seconds around.  And saw that his time in the pocket was more like 2.5 seconds and the 5 seconds was due to how often he was running for his life. 

Obviously I don't 'know for sure' what he is being coached to do, - none of us do - but I think if Daboll was coaching him to avoid turnovers he would emphasize throwing the ball away, rather than taking sacks.  But that's just a surmise.

IAC that is all speculation, while the 40% increase in sacks is a hard number.  And I'm an empirical guy. 

I think Thomas is an excellent tackle but besides him I don't see anyone on our OL who is above average or, in most cases, even average when to comes to pass pro.  Neal has so far been a disappointment in that regard, particularly since his pass pro was supposed to be his strength, but he's just a rookie and can (hopefully) improve.  But the interior line is still a mess.

I'm copying this whole post and pasting it as a reply in the DJ thread to honor the mods wishes, plus it is a little off the topic of the thread

I've been keeping up with the next Gen stats all season and he's been right at 2.9 or right over 3.0 all season which for the most part was 30th or worse in the NFL. Recently he's done better and because of such he sits around 2.92 which probably 20th maybe 23rd. What it hasn't been is 5 seconds ever this season to my knowledge if that helps in your discussion.

Quote from: GMenRF on December 26, 2022, 08:18:27 PMTrent Williams - LT
Alfred Morris - RB (made his second pro bowl albeit as a replacement to McCoy)
Garcon, Crowder and DJax - WRs
Jordan Reed - TE was 48 yards shy of 1K yards receiving (eventually made the Pro Bowl in 2016.

Most importantly their OC was Sean McVay

If you compared that with DJ.  The talent level at WR and TE is still not comparable to what we have now.  Two of whom were pick ups from Practice Squads of other teams.

Lol how is that any different than Andrew Thomas at Left Tackle and a possible 2nd/1st Team all Pro in Barkley with Daboll as HC and Kafka as OC?

Bottom line is Cousins never had to have a team prop him up to put up productive seasons.  He was highly productive long before Diggs and Jefferson.

Quote from: GMenRF on December 26, 2022, 08:33:07 PMYes but Cousins being drafted in the same as RG3 had the luxury to sit behind him and develop.  That's 3 years in the same system, with relatively the same coaches to groom him and develop. 

Daniel maybe year 4 in his career but playing for his 3 HC under 3 different systems with 4 different OCs in his ear.

There's always excuses for Jones.  At what point do they go away?  When things are perfect around him?

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 08:34:26 PMThere's always excuses for Jones.  At what point do they go away?  When things are perfect around him?

Since we're comparing Jones with Cousins and are expecting the same stats we also have to take some things into consideration.

We can even argue Cousins had the luxury of sitting out 2 years.  Half a season in his third year and full time starter in his fourth year.  With McVay calling his plays.  I'd argue you can't ask for a better situation than that. 

He'll even Zach Wilson can benefit from having that kind of time to sit out and learn and have an good offensive mind teaching him.  The Jets didn't have that and after just 2 seasons he will be likely playing for another if ever will be given the chance to do so.

Quote from: GMenRF on December 26, 2022, 08:49:50 PMSince we're comparing Jones with Cousins and are expecting the same stats we also have to take some things into consideration.

We can even argue Cousins had the luxury of sitting out 2 years.  Half a season in his third year and full time starter in his fourth year.  With McVay calling his plays.  I'd argue you can't ask for a better situation than that. 

He'll even Zach Wilson can benefit from having that kind of time to sit out and learn and have an good offensive mind teaching him.  The Jets didn't have that and after just 2 seasons he will be likely playing for another if ever will be given the chance to do so.

Playing is the best type of experience to learn from.  Yet in Cousin's 4th season (first starting) he put up numbers that Jones hasn't even approached.  Talent around them is not the difference between them.  Cousins is and has been the better QB.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 08:54:29 PMPlaying is the best type of experience to learn from.  Yet in Cousin's 4th season (first starting) he put up numbers that Jones hasn't even approached.  Talent around them is not the difference between them.  Cousins is and has been the better QB.

Yes Cousins may be the better QB now, but going forward I like where DJ can continue to progress and develop.  He's been playing efficient offense and not necessarily QB stat friendly offense but that's what he's been asked to do.

Now that we started opening up the pass offense, DJ can only continue to get better.  Put better skill position WRs around him and see how it with dynamically change our pass game.

Not to mention DJ has the running ability unlike Cousins.  Those deeper routes vs man to man with the DBs backed turned and DJ can pick up yards with his legs.

We've seen Cousins ceiling right now with the best WR in the league.  I'd go out on a limb that going forward DJ has a higher ceiling than Cousins if he continues in his development.

Quote from: GMenRF on December 26, 2022, 09:02:36 PMYes Cousins may be the better QB now, but going forward I like where DJ can continue to progress and develop.  He's been playing efficient offense and not necessarily QB stat friendly offense but that's what he's been asked to do.

Now that we started opening up the pass offense, DJ can only continue to get better.  Put better skill position WRs around him and how it with dynamically change our pass game.

Not to mention DJ has the running ability unlike Cousins.  Those deeper routes vs man to man with the DBs backed turned and DJ can pick up yards with his legs.

We've seen Cousins ceiling right now with the best WR in the league.  I'd go out on a limb that going forward DJ has a higher ceiling than Cousins if he continues in his development.

That's the problem though, no QB has ever started 4 years, had the same basic stats 4 years straight and then progressed after that 4th year into something more than he was already. It's never happened to my knowledge and if I remember correctly from talking with @kingm56 about the subject. So then you would be hoping Jones was a statical anamoly and took a leap in year 5 that didn't transpire at any time in the first four seasons. One or two games a season isn't flashing, that's probably luck. No coincidence his best two games this season are against 2 of the worst passing defenses in Jacksonville and Minnesota.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 26, 2022, 09:11:07 PMThat's the problem though, no QB has ever started 4 years, had the same basic stats 4 years straight and then progressed after that 4th year into something more than he was already. It's never happened to my knowledge and if I remember correctly from talking with @kingm56 about the subject. So then you would be hoping Jones was a statical anamoly and took a leap in year 5 that didn't transpire at any time in the first four seasons. One or two games a season isn't flashing, that's probably luck. No coincidence his best two games this season are against 2 of the worst passing defenses in Jacksonville and Minnesota.

My reasoning being that we just started to open up the pass game more instead of leaning heavily on the run & playaction.  More favorable statistically for QBs.

Also were running our pass offense with less ideal talent on the WR core.  Hodgins has been a breath of fresh air but his speed will not put the fear in any defense.  Slayton has speed but has been consistently inconsistent catching the ball on tight windows or the DB playing more press on him.  With better skill position players to execute the scheme its something to look forward to.

I can be wrong here but that's what I'm basing it on.  And that's what Tynes was alluding to that in that segment by the NY Post.

Quote from: GMenRF on December 26, 2022, 09:02:36 PMYes Cousins may be the better QB now, but going forward I like where DJ can continue to progress and develop.  He's been playing efficient offense and not necessarily QB stat friendly offense but that's what he's been asked to do.

Now that we started opening up the pass offense, DJ can only continue to get better.  Put better skill position WRs around him and see how it with dynamically change our pass game.

Not to mention DJ has the running ability unlike Cousins.  Those deeper routes vs man to man with the DBs backed turned and DJ can pick up yards with his legs.

We've seen Cousins ceiling right now with the best WR in the league.  I'd go out on a limb that going forward DJ has a higher ceiling than Cousins if he continues in his development.

Difference between the two in their careers will be that Cousins put up good numbers with little to work with in Washington.  When Cousins got weapons in Minnesota his production increased but not drastically. 

As far as the Giants offense opening up I wouldn't expect last week's offense to be used this week or again this season unless they play Minnesota in the playoffs. 

They handicapped the offense to this point because of the Qb. Jones' numbers are on par with Allen's end of his 1st year and 2nd year. They didn't fully trust him at that point and it led to them throwing less. Allen attempted 461 passes his sophomore campaign and Jones is on track for that with similar overall production.