Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on Today at 04:49:45 PMSome around here have argued he was top-10 in 2022, largely based on his QBR that season (he was 6th and largely so due to running contribution). But to me, 2022 would not be good enough in 2024 because it would be a "top-10" season by efficiency. Again, my point was that it hinges somewhat on the "top-10" season we're talking about. If 2024 is like 2022, that "top-10" performance doesn't do the trick.

Hi,

May I ask a hypothetical question.

Let's say he puts up similar numbers to his 2022 season, and the Giants make the NFC conference finals but lose that game.

Do they bring DJ back the following year?

Curious your thoughts?

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on Today at 05:33:06 PMI respectfully beg to differ. Last August there were people on this board arguing that the Giants were going to be "something special this year." I don't think any of those folks, or even a number who were less emphatic but still cautiously optimistic, would have told you last August that the Giant would go 0-5 in those five games.

Hi Dave,

This is not to challenge you in any way, but I do remember there were quite a few posters saying that the Giants could actually be a better team in 2023, but their record may actually be worse.

The reason why they were saying that was because the first six games of the season were absolutely brutal, and they were.

The schedule didn't begin to soften until week seven.

By the way this doesn't justify the poor record that they had, or the year, so please carry on.

For those who are advocating for Drew Lock, and making the case that he is a better QB than Daniel Jones, I would kindly ask you to look at both players entire career stats and not just a few games.

Both players were drafted in 2019.

Here are Drew Locks career stats.

59.7% 5283 Yards 28 TD 23 Int 79.3 RTG

Now here are Daniel Jones career stats, including rushing totals.

64.3% 14,426 Yards 75 TD 40 Int 85.2 RTG

As you can see it's not even close, Daniel Jones is the superior QB.

No one can force any of you to change your mind, but you may just want to reconsider your position.

Daniel Jones will be the day one starter, while Drew Lock will be sitting on the bench.

Take care.

Quote from: LennG on May 05, 2024, 04:29:45 PMIn the other thread about Eli, if memory serves, you were sort of complaining that people were 'cheery picking' about Eli and ONE year with a bad OL. Well, aren't you guilty of the same thing when you continually bring up the ONE year Jones had a decent enough year, 2022? For the most part, in most of the other years, Jones had been bad, in fact, worse than bad, awful would be a better term.
I'm not picking on you, but this has been a constant with people who think Jones is good and all he needs is a good OL, great WRs, and a good running game to be successful. As Dave said, he really needs to change his approach to the game. He simply doesn't even look downfield anymore, he puts the ball way and runs way too often, especially for an injury-prone QB. He still stares down too many receivers and just opts to dump it off just way too often.
PLUS, who says our OL will be that much better this year? All we can do is hope.

Hi Lenn,

Thank you so much for your expressions and how you feel and thank you for saying that you are not picking on me, as I do appreciate that.

I have kind of said what I needed to say in the other thread, but I will leave you with these comments that may help to see where I am coming from.

You may feel that Daniel Jones only had one good year in 2022, but I believe he also played well in 2019, which was his rookie year. As he threw for 24 TDs to 12 Int's.

So, I would say he has had two good years, and not just one.

I would also say that in 2020, 2021, and 2023 were not good years for him, but he has only played in five seasons. 

Eli Manning on the other hand played from 2004-2018, that is eighteen years of football, so a big difference.

Do I think Daniel Jones is an elite QB? No, I do not.

But can he bounce back from last year? Absolutely.

However, considering the situation of where the Giants were picking from, I do believe that they made the right call in drafting an elite WR, to pair up with DJ, instead of taking the 4th or 5th best QB left on the board. 

That is where I stand.

However, in the end, what everyone thinks is just an opinion. The proof will be in the pudding and the eating thereof.

If Daniel Jones is too make it, this year he needs to produce, and so does the team.

However, if he doesn't produce, he is out, but, if he does produce then he will continue to be the starting QB of the New York Giants.

but only time will tell.

Please be well and take care.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 05, 2024, 02:39:41 PMMy personal view:

1. I think Jones would need to have another injury-free year like he did in 2022. Missing one game with a mild ankle sprain wouldn't be the end of the world, but he can't have another season where he misses multiple games with a significant injury, as he has in four out of his five seasons in this league.

2. The team will need to have at least a decent season. Of course, this isn't all on Jones, but given QB is the most important position, I think he'll have a hard time being brought back if they have another season with fewer than 8 or 9 wins. He'd have to have an insanely productive season and they'd need to lose a lot of 38-35, shootout type games for this to not be the case.

3. He will need to be a legitimately productive passer. Absolute bare bones minimum of 3800 passing yards and 25 passing TDs. No excuses. He's getting paid too much to be a dink and dunk, 3200 yard/15 TD guy, and they know it.

4. Ball security: Max of 11/12 INTs if his passing TDs are in the 25-29 range, and a max of 14/15 if he's above 30 passing TDs. Fumbles need to be low/mid single digits again.

5. Risk appetite: Jones will need to take more risky shots downfield and not always opt for the closest receiver. Tyrod Taylor did it last year on the same team, and with Nabers and better O linemen Jones needs to do it this year.

6. Pocket/rush awareness: Jones will have to show marked improvement in this area.


Personally, I think all of the above will need to happen for the Giants to want to keep him beyond this season. Right now I believe he is on the outside looking in. He will have to have a significantly better season than he has ever had to be brought back. The economics just don't work otherwise.

I don't think a statistical repeat of his 2022 season will be enough in year six. They gave him the contract after that year with the hope that he would build on that performance and make further strides, not that he'd settle into that productivity level for the long haul.

Dave,

By the way I like what you have presented, however may I play devil's advocate for a minute?

Let's say DJ puts up a statistical season like 2022, but the Giants go all the way to the NFC Conference Finals, but they lose.

They would be drafting either pick 29th or 30th.

If that is the case, in order to draft a new QB they would need one of the top teams to trade out.

Then the Giants would have to give up the farm to get that guy, if they are able to.

Or in this situation do you think it is wiser to hold onto DJ for another year?

Curious your thoughts?

Quote from: Trench on May 05, 2024, 12:26:16 PMExcellent debate. It shows how dug in everyone is towards their views and that is ok. I think the point being made is a QB can in fact win with a bad Oline or receivers - ( BUT maybe not consistently is the key)...but it can be done and has been done.

Another point on having a great o-line which I think is overlooked is the fact nobody had had better Olines and receivers than Dallas for a sustained period, yet they never win. I think that is very telling to the point of how much more important the QB is.

Trench,

Thank you for your comments and reasonable approach. You took into consideration both sides of the discussion without putting anyone down, and I really appreciated that, so thank you once again.

Good points about Dallas as well.

What I am expecting from him with the additions of Nabers, Theo, and the upgrades on the O line.

3,500-4,000 Yards
22-30 TD's
10-12 Int
65%
400-500 Yards rushing
95.0-98.0 RTG

I think he has to hit production and numbers like this for the Giants to keep him for the remainder of his three-year contract.

With the additions that he has, combined with him taking more chances, I believe this is within reason.

Quote from: kingm56 on May 05, 2024, 03:39:09 AM"If you want to say that Brady playing behind a top five offensive line, for the majority of his career had absolutely no impact on his performance, well then be my guest."

REBUTTAL:  Where did I, or anyone, state Brady and Manning did not benefit from playing behind top tier OLs?  You're reframing your own premise for reasons only you know.  What I stated, and objectively proved is both QBs were ALSO successful playing behind poor-to-terrible OLs. Thus, they did NOT always benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense."  Yes, Eli and Brady played behind some very good OLs, and benefited as all QBs do; however, that doesn't invalidate thier numerous successes playing behind bottom 10 OLs; in fact, both had AP/MVP-type seasons playing with the NFLs' literal worst Olines.. 

"And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it."

REBUTTAL:  As I accurately predicted, and stated, your mind is already made up and no amount of objective data will sway you. So, why waste time providing a cogent, time-consuming response? I also reject the notion I only provided one years worth of data; in response to Rich, I provided 9 years worth of data to support my supposition, in addition to providing 3 years worth of Patriot data.  However, since you brought it up, I will do so again, this time with aggregate PFF OL rankings."

"So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning."

REBUTTAL:   You remind me of Blue Fire; any opposing views and/or rebuttals were classified as "faulty." Do you automatically assume anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and/or employs fault logic? I knew from past research that your statement was factually inaccurate and did my best provide a response predicated on facts.

"In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham."

REBUTTAL:   This is factually incorrect; in response to Tonka, I explicitly stated "Cruz was as integral to the Giants' 2011 success as JPP."  Besides, you're moving the goal post, presumably because you were unaware of the Giants' 2011 OL ranking. You explicitly stated "Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their career" and "It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defensee.""  BTW, I suspect the majority of fans would avoid classifying Manningham (good) or Nicks(stints as very good) as 'elite', especially the former.  How did both do without Manning?  You're also torpedoing your own assertion: "What is more important to the QB than the WR is the offensive line."; to explain the 2011 season, you're suggesting it was byproduct of WRs talent.  What about Mannings other 3 Pro Bowl seasons when you played with bottom 10 Olines?  In fact, his two best seasons were 2011 and 2015, when he was paired with bottom 3 pass-protection.  As you highlighted, he did enjoy a solid WR trio in 2011 and superstar WR in 2015 (OBJ).  So, based on your input, it appears the reverse is true (i.e. wrs are more important than the OL).  At a minimum, we should discuss this assertion as it appears it has some merit.  I digress though as WR(s) weren't our focus; you introduced them after learning about the Giants' 2011 OL rankings

BL: Your premise that Manning and Brady's successes were predicated on "elite OLs" during "thier prime" is objectively false. 

Eli's aggregate Oline Rankings:

2008    11  (Unk) * Made the Pro Bowl
2009    6  (12 Pass Blocking)
2010    13 (17 Pass Blocking)
2011    31 (31 Pass Blocking) * Made the Pro Bowl/MVP and AP votes
2012   11 (21 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2013    28 (31 Pass Blocking)
2014    20 (28 Pass Blocking)
2015    20 (28 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2016   20 (24 Pass Blocking)

2008*   27   16   289   479   60.3   3238   21   10   86.4   66.9   PB
2009    28    16   317   509   62.3   4021   27   14   93.1   71.7   
2010    29    16   339   539   62.9   4002   31   25   85.3   57.7   
2011*   30   16   359   589   61   4933   29   16   92.9   64.2   AP CPoY-6, PB
2012*   31   16   321   536   59.9   3948   26   15   87.2   67   PB
2013    32    16   317   551   57.5   3818   18   27   69.4   38.6   
2014    33    16   379   601   63.1   4410   30   14   92.1   61   
2015*   34   16   387   618   62.6   4432   35   14   93.6   57.9   PB
2016    35   16   377   598   63.0   4027   26   16 86.0   45.7
   
Note – I did not include 2017 through 2019 as the OP explicitly stated "in the prime of their careers."  On average, QBs not named Brady start to regress around their mid-30s; this was true for all of Manning's 2004 draft contemporaries (e.g. Big Ben and Rivers).

Key Takeaways:
1. With the exception of 2013, Eli's output remained consistent
2. Eli's statistical best two seasons (2011 and 2015) occurred when paired with bottom 3 Pass Blocking lines; he did have Cruz, Nix and OBJ
3. Eli's best season was 2011, playing behind the NFL's worst OL
4. Eli's worst season was 2013, playing behind the NFL's 28th OL
5. Eli's 4 PB seasons occurred playing behind the 11, 31, 11 and 20 rated lines.
6. 3 of 4 of his PB seasons were accomplished playing with bottom 10 pass blocking line; 2 of 4 were bottom 3 (31, 21, and  28)
7. During his Prime, Eli's aggregate OL ranking was #18
8. During his Prime, Eli's average pass protection ranking was #24
9. On average, Eli did NOT benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense"; in his prime, the exact opposite was true....he had a bottom 7 pass blocking oline
10 The same is true for Tom Brady; in his prime, he remained consistent, independent of his OL rankings.  His 2015 MVP season was accomplished behind the NFL's worst pass-blocking line.

The data is remarkably clear; Brady and Manning outputs were NOT wholly predicated on thier OL performances.  Both literally prove the opposite of the premise introduced; each remained consistent during MULTIPLE seasons with poor Olines in thier prime. In short, it's possible for QBs to be HIGHLY successful (e.g. MVPs/APs) playing behind terrible olines.   Looking at the data, can we at least agree on that point?  Can we agree Eli and Brady enjoyed MULTPLE Pro Bowl/SB seasons playing behind bottom 10 olines? If true, can we also agree that it's possible for Top-Tier QBs to be successful without elite, or even good OLs?   I will agree with the notion that 36 through 38 year old Manning needed a plus offensive line to be successful, as the data supports that conclusion; however, Prime Eli did not.

IMO, it's a disservice to Eli's greatness to perpetuate a false-narrative that his success was predicted on an elite (or even good) Oline; the fact is, for the majority of his prime, his Oline stunk.  From a more macro perspective, it's unnecessary to perpetuate these false claims to support the notion that QB failures are a byproduct of poor oline play.  Prime Eli quite literally proves the opposite. 

Here are my answers to your objections and I will do so in civil way, all I ask is if you can please do the same to me, thank you.

Here is your question to me "Where did I, or anyone, state Brady and Manning did not benefit from playing behind top tier OLs?  You're reframing your own premise for reasons only you know."

Here is what you specifically said "Tom Brady, it's a complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career."

Here are what the facts show regarding Tom Brady's offensive line rankings during his career.

Bucs O line

2022 ranked 4th
2021 ranked 2nd
2020 ranked 5th

Patriots O line

2019 ranked 10th
2018 ranked 4th
2017 ranked 3rd
2016 ranked 10th
2015 ranked 25th
2014 ranked 23rd
2013 ranked 14th
2012 ranked 2nd
2011 ranked 3rd
2010 ranked 3rd
2009 ranked 3rd
2008 ranked 1st
2007 ranked 1st
2006 ranked 3rd

From 2001-2004 Tom Brady also had LT Matt Light who made 3 pro bowls, Dan Koppen who was a pro bowl center, and from 2005-2013 had Logan Mankins. He wasn't just New England's best offensive lineman, there was no better lineman in the NFL over that nine-season stretch in which he made six Pro Bowls.

For twelve seasons Brady played behind a top five offensive line.

For three seasons played behind a top 15 offensive line.

For two seasons played behind a top 25 offensive line.

You said it was a complete myth that Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.

What I just showed is that it wasn't a myth, it was the complete opposite. For the majority of his career he has been playing behind an elite level offensive line.

If you want to say that for a year or two Eli Manning and Tom Brady were able to produce at a high level under a bad offensive line, I'm willing to concede that point, but they both needed star WR's and TE's to make that happen.

However, the premise that Eli Manning and Tom Brady consistently played behind poor offensive lines, I respectfully disagree.

If you consider DJ's best years were behind the 17th and 18th ranked O lines, and his worst years the 30th, 31st, and 30th, then he has always been behind an atrocious O line.

I also consider Eli's prime years to be right out of the gate starting in 2005 when he was a young man, and during those first four years he played behind a top five offensive line, which I shared in my previous posts.

My fundamental point is this, Eli Manning nor Tom Brady would not have been able to sustain years of high-level production in the passing game without a good offensive line, nothing more, nothing less.

2013 and 2017 regarding Eli Manning prove my point.

In any event you can have the last word, as I really have nothing more to say.

I'm going to relax for the rest of the day.

I disagree with PFN's ranking.

I'm expecting a bounce back year from Daniel Jones. He will be pushing the ball farther, because he learned what Taylor did during his tenure.

Nabers will be explosive, the O line has been improved especially in pass protection, and Theo will be a nice addition.

Offensive production will improve this year, and DJ will have a good year.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 04, 2024, 08:28:31 PMYou asked everyone to "Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their careers. It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense."

All king did was give you an example of both players in their prime with horrible lines still thriving. He is one of the most knowledgeable and respectful people that post here.

We are all adults here, you've got to stop thinking everyone is attacking you with their responses. Just because someone replies either correcting you or informing you of something doesn't mean it's hostile, it's a NFL football forum, not a kids table.

You claimed king was cherry picking data when infact he was simply answering your question.

There are a ton of Qbs that you can list that played behind horrible olines and still produced at the highest levels.

Matt Stafford
Patrick Mahomes
Tony Romo
Andrew Luck
Peyton Manning
Deshaun Watson
Russell Wilson

These are just a few off the top of my head without doing research.

Eli Manning had a great line for about 4-5 of his 16 years, he spent 3/4th of his career behind a bad one.

Eli played from 2005 through 2012 on average with a top five to top ten offensive line.

In 2013 he played behind the 28th ranked offensive line, and here were his numbers.

57% - 18 TD 27 Int 69.4 RTG 38.6 QBR

Are you implying that his offensive line had no impact on his performance?

And secondly to say that 75% of his career he played behind a bad one is simply not true.

The numbers show otherwise.

I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me, but I do have a problem with someone disagreeing with me and throwing in put down remarks, that is what I have a problem with, and the guidelines to this forum show we are not supposed to be doing that.

Also go look at the lines Tom Brady played behind, I uploaded most of his years, top 5 to top 10 O lines for over twelve seasons.

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 06:31:52 AMDid you bother researching your own question? Clearly not...

Eli Manning
Without Question, Eli's best season was 2011, the only year he received All-Pro votes, was a Pro Bowler, and won a SB.  That year, PFF ranked the NYG Giants Oline #31 (#32 pass protection).  His running game was dead-last...he and JPP carried that team to the playoffs.
 
Here's the exert from PFF:

Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn't just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants' line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.

Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting ... outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.

Worst Player: It's hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.

Tom Brady
It's complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.  In 2014, 15 and 16, the onlines were bad...REAL BAD.  During that span, he continued to play at an AP/MVP level,.

Enjoy the PFF exerts:

2014:
23. New England Patriots

Pass Blocking Ranking: 31st, Run Blocking Ranking: 8th, Penalties Ranking: 19th

Stud: Our second-team All-Pro right tackle Sebastian Vollmer had himself another good year and avoided the injury bug for a change. Bonus.

Dud: The 306 snaps that Jordan Devey managed were brutal to watch at times. Not much of a pass blocker, he didn't exactly light it up in the run game either.

Breakdown: Nate Solder had a bad year by his standards and the interior gave up way too much pressure. They did bloody some rookies, but this group appeared a unit in transition, with the team trying to patch up something just good enough to not harm their skill players too much.

2015:
25. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
Pass-blocking rank: 31st

Run-blocking rank: 12th

Penalties rank: 15th

Stud: Far from perfect, but Josh Kline looked the part when he got on the field.

Dud: Pick your poison here. None were truly atrocious, but most were well below average. None more so than Cameron Fleming, who allowed way too much pressure.

Summary: The good news is that, where they struggle (pass protection), they have a quarterback good enough to overcome it. But it was still so bad that you wonder how much easier (and better) life for Tom Brady could have been with better protection.
 
"I think we've established how atrocious the New England Patriots offensive line performed in 2015. Almost every single player to suit up on the line was hurt for some extended period of time, and the team had to rely on a series of young, inexperienced, and hurt players to protect the best player in the NFL."

According to Pro Football Focus, the Patriots offensive line ranked 31st in the league in pass protection, ahead of only the San Diego Chargers.
 
Key Takeaways:
1. Both the 2015 Pats and 2011 Giants won SBs with PFFs 31st and 32 ranked pass blocking olines
2. Prime Eli Manning was absolutely capable, and DID, overcome terrible oline play
3. Tom Brady was an MVP/AP/SP Winner with the NFLs "31 ranked pass protection
4. Tom Brady was capable of making his Line look better than they were
   2007: Brady was sacked 21 times
   2008: Brady injured, Matt Cassel was sacked 47 times with the same Oline and Coach
   2009: Brady returns and the line reverts to allowing just 16 sacks; funny how that works
5. Over the past few months, I've watched fans incorrectly attribute sacks allowed to the Oline, without giving any consideration to the QB; QBs who process poorly are sacked more...is that really a surprise?

I could provide a lot more data points, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of objective or subjective data will change it.  Regardless, your statement regarding Eli's and Brady's reliance on the oline has objectively been proven false. 

Here are Tom Brady's offensive line numbers, his last three were on the Bucs, and the rest were on the Patriots.

Tampa Bay Bucs offensive line rankings

2022 ranked 4th
2021 ranked 2nd
2020 ranked 5th

New England Patriots offensive line rankings

2019 ranked 10th
2018 ranked 4th
2017 ranked 3rd
2016 ranked 10th
2015 ranked 25th
2014 ranked 23rd
2013 ranked 14th
2012 ranked 2nd
2011 ranked 3rd
2010 ranked 3rd
2009 ranked 3rd
2008 ranked 1st
2007 ranked 1st
2006 ranked 3rd

From 2001-2004 Tom Brady also had LT Matt Light who made 3 pro bowls, Dan Koppen who was a pro bowl center, and from 2005-2013 had Logan Mankins. He wasn't just New England's best offensive lineman, there was no better lineman in the NFL over that nine-season stretch in which he made six Pro Bowls.

For twelve seasons Brady played behind a top five offensive line.

For three seasons played behind a top 15 offensive line.

For two seasons played behind a top 25 offensive line.

The majority of this man's career he was playing behind a top five offensive line. Whether that was with the Bucs or the Patriots.

If you want to say that Brady playing behind a top five offensive line, for the majority of his career had absolutely no impact on his performance, well then be my guest.

Have at it, as I'm now going to go to sleep.

Quote from: LennG on May 04, 2024, 07:43:00 PMYour stats are fine, but he did mention, most clearly, that Eli also played behind one of the worst OLs in the league and we won a SB behind them.
I don't care if Eli had the best OLs for most of his career, fact is Eli had one of the worst and he won with it. For all the excuses so many have given for Jones and his OL, how come he can't do the same?

Lenn,

You make a good point.

we need to keep in mind Eli in 2011 had not one, but three elite WR's in Nicks, Manningham and Cruz.

With that supporting cast he was able to do it for one year, but as I have brought out up above he couldn't elevate the team in 2013 with the 28th ranked O line.

In fact he threw 18 TD's to 27 Int's and a QBR rating that is awful.

Then in 2017 his line was ranked 26th, and he got benched.

The question we need to ask is why couldn't Eli Manning elevate the entire offense in 2013 and 2017 if his O line didn't matter?

The answer is because his O line did matter, and it was letting him down and that is why he had his worst years.

It wasn't his fault, as his line let him down but this is what the data is showing.

I will work on Tom Brady's offensive line later when I have more time.

I'm tired now

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 07:35:34 AMWhat evidence do you have to support that statement?  Concerning Brady, he had a completely new system in TB and enjoyed career years; conversely, the system you claim was culpable for his success has been abysmal since his departure.  The architect of said system, now has a record of 82-98 without Tom Brady. QBs like Brady and Manning are successful wherever they go, while their OCs like McDaniels and Adam Case are duds.  It should be clear as day the QB is more important to the system, than the system is to the QB.  In short, good QBs are going to be good, regardless of the system. 

"save for the randy moss years, tom was never exactly airing it out. he was hitting guys underneath that could pick up YAC"

This statement is just false.   

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/tom-brady-passes-over-20-yards-by-year

Brady is probably not the guy you want to use to prove that QB needs elite WRs to be successful, or an Oline for that matter. 

Here are more stats of Eli Manning's offensive line rankings

2010 ranked 13th

https://www.pff.com/news/2010-offensive-line-rankings-%25e2%2580%2593-part-2

2012 ranked 11th

link

2013 ranked 28th

worst year of his career

18 TD's to 27 Int and an atrocious QBR Rating

link

2014-2016 lines were ranked around 20th

2017 ranked 26th

link

So in 2013 and 2017 when is offensive line was absolutely atrocious, he put up his worst years, and was ultimately benched for Geno Smith in 2017.

For the majority of his career 2005-2012 he played behind a top 5 to top 10 offensive line.

Then from 2013-2017 the line began to deteriorate.

In two out of four of those years he was atrocious, and it wasn't his fault, because his line let him down.

I will work on Tom Bradys offensive line numbers later when I have more time

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 06:31:52 AMDid you bother researching your own question? Clearly not...

Eli Manning
Without Question, Eli's best season was 2011, the only year he received All-Pro votes, was a Pro Bowler, and won a SB.  That year, PFF ranked the NYG Giants Oline #31 (#32 pass protection).  His running game was dead-last...he and JPP carried that team to the playoffs.
 
Here's the exert from PFF:

Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn't just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants' line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.

Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting ... outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.

Worst Player: It's hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.

Tom Brady
It's complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.  In 2014, 15 and 16, the onlines were bad...REAL BAD.  During that span, he continued to play at an AP/MVP level,.

Enjoy the PFF exerts:

2014:
23. New England Patriots

Pass Blocking Ranking: 31st, Run Blocking Ranking: 8th, Penalties Ranking: 19th

Stud: Our second-team All-Pro right tackle Sebastian Vollmer had himself another good year and avoided the injury bug for a change. Bonus.

Dud: The 306 snaps that Jordan Devey managed were brutal to watch at times. Not much of a pass blocker, he didn't exactly light it up in the run game either.

Breakdown: Nate Solder had a bad year by his standards and the interior gave up way too much pressure. They did bloody some rookies, but this group appeared a unit in transition, with the team trying to patch up something just good enough to not harm their skill players too much.

2015:
25. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
Pass-blocking rank: 31st

Run-blocking rank: 12th

Penalties rank: 15th

Stud: Far from perfect, but Josh Kline looked the part when he got on the field.

Dud: Pick your poison here. None were truly atrocious, but most were well below average. None more so than Cameron Fleming, who allowed way too much pressure.

Summary: The good news is that, where they struggle (pass protection), they have a quarterback good enough to overcome it. But it was still so bad that you wonder how much easier (and better) life for Tom Brady could have been with better protection.
 
"I think we've established how atrocious the New England Patriots offensive line performed in 2015. Almost every single player to suit up on the line was hurt for some extended period of time, and the team had to rely on a series of young, inexperienced, and hurt players to protect the best player in the NFL."

According to Pro Football Focus, the Patriots offensive line ranked 31st in the league in pass protection, ahead of only the San Diego Chargers.
 
Key Takeaways:
1. Both the 2015 Pats and 2011 Giants won SBs with PFFs 31st and 32 ranked pass blocking olines
2. Prime Eli Manning was absolutely capable, and DID, overcome terrible oline play
3. Tom Brady was an MVP/AP/SP Winner with the NFLs "31 ranked pass protection
4. Tom Brady was capable of making his Line look better than they were
  2007: Brady was sacked 21 times
  2008: Brady injured, Matt Cassel was sacked 47 times with the same Oline and Coach
  2009: Brady returns and the line reverts to allowing just 16 sacks; funny how that works
5. Over the past few months, I've watched fans incorrectly attribute sacks allowed to the Oline, without giving any consideration to the QB; QBs who process poorly are sacked more...is that really a surprise?

I could provide a lot more data points, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of objective or subjective data will change it.  Regardless, your statement regarding Eli's and Brady's reliance on the oline has objectively been proven false. 

It is generally not good to attack or put down a poster and then say "did you bother to research your own question? clearly not"...

And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it.

This is what we call the logical fallacy of cherry picking, using just one example and then building an entire world view around it, which misleads yourself and those who listen to you.

But this isn't the first time you have done this, you have a built-up history of this kind of behavior.

So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning.

Has Eli Manning really played behind a terrible offensive line like "Kingm56" has claimed? Well, what do the facts actually show?

New York Giants offensive line rankings

2005 - ranked 4th best in the NFL

Link

2007 - The 2007 offensive line was one of the best in the league, if not the best. It was also completely healthy. Snee was a dominant player, and O'Hara and Seubert were excellent. McKenzie was one of the league's best right tackles and Diehl did an adequate job on the left side.

https://www.bigblueview.com/2012/6/20/3099072/2007-giants-vs-2011-giants-comparing-super-bowl-champs-offensive-lines

2008 - ranked #1

link

2009 - Considered the best offensive line in the league

link

So, I have just shown four years where Eli Manning played behind one of the best offensive lines in the NFL, and I haven't even begun to go through 2010-2018, but later I will.

In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham.

Cruz took a 9 yard out and ran it for 99 yards against the Jets for a TD. He did the same thing with a 7 yard out for 74 yards against the cowboys.

So, before you attack or attempt to put down another poster, which really isn't tolerated here, I would encourage you in the future, if you really want to know the correct answer to something, and to be taken seriously, it is best to look at all the years and all the data, to come to a proper conclusion, instead of only using one of Eli Mannings years.

Quote from: BluesCruz on May 03, 2024, 11:54:42 AMOk so Machiavellian thinking does not come into play with the Mara's
They are totally transparent.  NOT!

No, Schoen may have conversations with Mara about what he wants to do, but he and Daboll have final say.