Big Blue Huddle

I suppose I shouldn't say so here, but I am pleased by it.

Cheers!

Great Statement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What's the over/under on the length of time before this thread is shut down?

Quote from: uconnjack8 on April 02, 2021, 04:32:11 PM
What's the over/under on the length of time before this thread is shut down?

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While many are applauding this move, I continue to feel sports are becoming (or have already become) way too political in recent years. When most people tune into sports, they are not looking for a constant barrage of in-your-face political expression. Not the majority of fans anyway. And that goes for both conservatives and liberals. People on both sides of the spectrum tune in because they want to watch their favorite teams and favorite athletes play the sports they love. Period. There are more than enough vehicles and avenues through which to be political in modern life. Sports does not need to be so deeply embroiled in all of this as well. And I'm not suggesting there should be no recognition at all of key issues. Some of that is clearly fine - that has always been there. I just think it has become too constant and too in-you-face, all the time. Ultimately I think this will hurt leagues, who already as it is have major issues with TV ratings.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 03, 2021, 07:37:18 AM
While many are applauding this move, I continue to feel sports are becoming (or have already become) way too political in recent years. When most people tune into sports, they are not looking for a constant barrage of in-your-face political expression. Not the majority of fans anyway. And that goes for both conservatives and liberals. People on both sides of the spectrum tune in because they want to watch their favorite teams and favorite athletes play the sports they love. Period. There are more than enough vehicles and avenues through which to be political in modern life. Sports does not need to be so deeply embroiled in all of this as well. And I'm not suggesting there should be no recognition at all of key issues. Some of that is clearly fine - that has always been there. I just think it has become too constant and too in-you-face, all the time. Ultimately I think this will hurt leagues, who already as it is have major issues with TV ratings.

Counter point. While you may feel the exact opposite, athletes are not there for your amusement. They are real people, living real lives. YOU choose to follow THEIR lives. You don

Quote from: Stringer Bell on April 03, 2021, 08:00:03 AM
Counter point. While you may feel the exact opposite, athletes are not there for your amusement. They are real people, living real lives. YOU choose to follow THEIR lives. You don

I disagree with the move completely, but I disagree more with how the issue is presented. As for Delta and Coke ,Delta was in a group that was presented with the plan and agreed to it prior to enacting. Delta changed their tune after receiving pressure, that's not strength it's weakness. I honestly don't see how this change inhibits anyone from voting. Georgia has more days for early voting than both Delaware and New Jersey. If requiring a picture ID is a problem I don't see it. MLB, Delta and Coke can do as they want but it will impact my choices.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 03, 2021, 08:07:29 AM
I'm not dictating anything. And where the hell did I say it was "up to me"? Please don't put words in my mouth. All I did was express an opinion on the fact that sports have gotten significantly more political in recent years. Last I checked you're allowed to have an opinion.

Agreed, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Sad we can't express ours on this board without having to move the thread. I also respect MLB and their opinion on the matter.

While I support the move it saddens me that it's just another example of the fact that the only thing that will change politicians minds is money. Not the desires of the majority of people they represent. We are forced to rely on corporations to do the right thing for those in power to listen.

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Quote from: FL GMAN on April 03, 2021, 08:21:33 AM
I disagree with the move completely, but I disagree more with how the issue is presented. As for Delta and Coke ,Delta was in a group that was presented with the plan and agreed to it prior to enacting. Delta changed their tune after receiving pressure, that's not strength it's weakness. I honestly don't see how this change inhibits anyone from voting. Georgia has more days for early voting than both Delaware and New Jersey. If requiring a picture ID is a problem I don't see it. MLB, Delta and Coke can do as they want but it will impact my choices.

FL

Nice write up! 

See there in lies the problem, companies/people ban wagon on an issue without doing their research and seeing what the meat and potatoes to it all is about. 

They take the limited info the media and politicians give them, just enough most time to rial people up, but lacking most of the info and believe they should be upset with it cause they are told to be upset with it.  If people had all the info they probably wouldn

Would the Braves organization have a different position if this were happening in Arizona or Nevada? I think so.

Although I don

Quote from: quacker on April 03, 2021, 10:50:29 AM
I'm in favor of MLB doing this. It is unfortunate but players are human beings and employees, the majority of whom do not support these voting changes.

Were the players polled on this issue?

Here's an accurate and sobering way to think about this:  if Georgia Repiblicans had the power in the last election that they just gave themselves for the next, would they have used/abused it to tilt the outcome?  I'd have a very hard time believing they wouldn't have.

Guys, the water thing is a distraction.

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Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 03, 2021, 10:56:55 AM
Were the players polled on this issue?

According to Manfred's press release current and former players were consulted for their views. I haven't seen a specific press release from The Players Association supporting the decision though.

It's been widely studied and reported that the number of documented cases of fraudulent voting over the past several years in both state and federal elections is infinitesimally small. These new laws, which among other things limit the amount of polling places and voting times, will in all likelihood make it more difficult, not easier, to vote and especially so for those living in higher density population areas, (which as we all know traditionally tend to vote Democrat btw). Due to this law will there be eligible voters less likely to vote than before these laws were enacted? I would say yes, and I'm not sure how one could argue otherwise. Based on what we know about past elections might that number be more than the number of fraudulent votes cast? Again I would say a resounding yes!! As a result when more eligible voters are kept from voting than the number of fraudulent votes cast this amounts to the "cure being worse than the disease." How does this not go against the very core of our democracy? How is this not completely unamerican??? That there are those attempting to justify this is beyond shameful.

Quote from: FL GMAN on April 03, 2021, 11:46:16 AM
Painter would that also apply to people who feel the law is justified and will prevent future fraud or is it limited to one side of an argument.

People can feel anyway they like. No one is suggesting otherwise. Rather, one would hope that their conclusion would be open-minded and based on fact.

As there has not been the slightest evidence of voting fraud in the recent election based on numerous investigations by the DOJ, by the Brennan Center, and by various court's dismissal of 50 lawsuits brought by Trump and his allies, it is hard to imagine anyone seeing such laws and changes in procedure as anything like legitimate. I don't known what it might take to convince someone, who is actually seeking the truth, of the pernicious nature of these recent actions, but I suggest that he or she consider that then Attorney General, Bill Barr declared last December that the Justice Department found no evidence of voter fraud which might have changed the outcome of the election, and in that he flatly disputed Trump's baseless claims.

Personally, I find it astounding that we have been made such fools of for as long as we have. But I guess it does clearly prove that  con men don't have to be smart if their victims are dumb enough.

Cheers!

Quote from: katkavage on April 03, 2021, 11:58:02 AM
All you have to do is ask why. Why did Georgia do this? Why is Arizona trying to do this? And other states? There is no honest answer. There is no reason to make it harder to vote. There was no voter fraud in 2020. And there has been very little for decades. No, this is being done because of a lie created and spread by a man who could not accept losing. In this country and democracies, majorities usually rule. The Republican party knows it has lost that majority and is continuing to lose it not by voter fraud, but by bad policies. Forget the water line issue. That, as PSU said, is a distraction. It's a attempt to grab power when power has been lost.

Because loopholes were found In a system and were exploited. Close the loopholes to ensue a fair election for all regardless of party or views.

Had it been done in reverse the same things would be happening. 




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It is interesting to view this thread late-in-the-game.  Like most political discussions it seems very long in opinions and very short in facts.  How about investigate the facts first, then debate the opinions?

What precisely is in the new law?  Some say the new law is an improvement, some say it makes things worse.  The presence and/or prevalence of voter fraud in recent elections, or not, is irrelevant to whether the new law is an improvement, or not.  In the same vein, I don't care if traffic accidents have gone up or down recently in my neighborhood. If there is a new law to address that issue, and it's good/bad on its own merits, then I will be for/against it.

So is the following quote that I read today true? Or not?
"
On Election Day in Georgia, anyone in line by 7 p.m. gets a ballot. The new law requires an extra Saturday of voting, while specifying early voting hours: The minimum is 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., but counties may run 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. In metro areas,

Quote from: bldevil on April 03, 2021, 03:33:59 PM
It is interesting to view this thread late-in-the-game.  Like most political discussions it seems very long in opinions and very short in facts.  How about investigate the facts first, then debate the opinions?

What precisely is in the new law?  Some say the new law is an improvement, some say it makes things worse.  The presence and/or prevalence of voter fraud in recent elections, or not, is irrelevant to whether the new law is an improvement, or not.  In the same vein, I don't care if traffic accidents have gone up or down recently in my neighborhood. If there is a new law to address that issue, and it's good/bad on its own merits, then I will be for/against it.

So is the following quote that I read today true? Or not?
"
On Election Day in Georgia, anyone in line by 7 p.m. gets a ballot. The new law requires an extra Saturday of voting, while specifying early voting hours: The minimum is 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., but counties may run 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. In metro areas,

The bill is more than 90 pages so parsing it down to a few bullet points, on either side, is not all that useful.  What i think is useful is understanding the motivation of an administration in Georgia that felt the need to make these kind of changes.  We just had an election that drastically changed the representation of the State at least in the Senate.  By all accounts, including those certified by conservative Republicans responsible for governance with regard to the election,  there were no instances of fraud that mattered and the election was completely honest.  So, the Republican legislature decided to remove authorities of future elections from these officials and keep the power to determine outcomes.

One can quibble about the fine points of the bill but its pretty clear to me that the reason for rushing these changes has little to do with election integrity and much to do with stacking the deck.

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 03, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
Glad you think so.  It would seem MANY others disagree.

And adding a voter ID to help ensure things is basic common sense that can only help to further secure and prove a fair election.



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Indeed. And it doesn't speak well for them. While that's their problem, it also has thus become the Country's problem perfectly illustrated by the mock motive of this latest sham.

"Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not." : : "There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know.

Cheers!

Quote from: Painter on April 03, 2021, 06:45:15 PM
Indeed. And it doesn't speak well for them. While that's their problem, it also has thus become the Country's problem perfectly illustrated by the mock motive of this latest sham.

"Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not." : : "There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know.

Cheers!

Doesn

Nice birdwalk there slugs but the issue is voter fraud. Does it exist in such a fashion as it requires new legislation to fix?  The answer is simply no.

These lawmakers are actually quite smart. They are using people dumb enough to believe the big lie that the last election was stolen through fraud in order to establish laws that allow them to keep control. This is despicable and un American.

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Quote from: PSUBeirut on April 03, 2021, 08:25:28 PM
Nice birdwalk there slugs but the issue is voter fraud. Does it exist in such a fashion as it requires new legislation to fix?  The answer is simply no.

These lawmakers are actually quite smart. They are using people dumb enough to believe the big lie that the last election was stolen through fraud in order to establish laws that allow them to keep control. This is despicable and un American.

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Exactly! You nailed it. They will fabricate and obfuscate, which all they can do, but the truth is plain and simple to see unless its inconvenient to one's agenda which all too often includes racism and/or xenophobia, and/or religious bigoty and/or dog whistling the delusional.

Cheers!

Ha!




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For those still spouting the voter fraud argument, you need to understand that it was never a real position and the attorneys who were touting it in multiple states have had to retract their statements in an effort to protect themselves. Sidney Powell, Trump's attorney, had to declare in briefing - and I quote - "reasonable people would not accept such statements as fact but view them only as claims that await testing by the courts through the adversary process." (And please understand that statements in pleadings carry great weight not only in that particular case but across the board because attorneys can be held to those statements regardless of where they were made since they have a duty not just to their client but to the law and the courts themselves.) The "statements" referenced therein are the allegations of widespread (indeed even non-widespread, just marginally identifiable) voter fraud. And those claims which "awaited testing" were thrown out because the testing revealed the claims were wholly un-meritorious. Long story short: there was no there there.

To break it down even further: in this election cycle, there has not been a cognizable legal argument that voter fraud affected this election that has survived the most basic of scrutiny. If you believe the contrary, you're engaging in a conspiracy theory. You're just wrong. Republican and democratic judges alike have rejected these spurious cases.

Georgia's recent law has nothing to do with protecting elections. If its election was compromised, that would have been apparent given the microscope it was under. No, the recent laws are about inconveniencing people in the hope that they forego their constitutional rights. Its despicable. No American should welcome such a blatant effort to curtail citizens' constitutional rights.

I

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 04, 2021, 07:12:39 PM
I

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 04, 2021, 07:55:39 PM
Exactly!  Give out food and drinks at an election should be illegal.  It

We need to present ID in Virginia and elections are fair.   We are a
blue state so the system works.

Quote from: EdS on April 04, 2021, 09:17:41 PM
We need to present ID in Virginia and elections are fair.   We are a
blue state so the system works.

Exactly right.  It should be everywhere.  It shouldn

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 04, 2021, 09:23:55 PM
Exactly right.  It should be everywhere.  It shouldn

I see we have 2 moderators watching.  I hope u don

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 04, 2021, 10:24:52 PM
I see we have 2 moderators watching.  I hope u don

Quote from: Sem on April 03, 2021, 02:48:22 PM
FL GMAN, to clarify, what I feel is shameful are those that think it's ok to limit any number of legal and eligible American voters from doing their civic duty, in order to prevent the infinitesimally small number of fraudulent votes from being cast.

What would you consider infinitely small?  Out of 160+million votes, what

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 04, 2021, 11:03:25 PM
GR2: I am also a moderator (who couldn't be one of the moderators to whom you're referring because I just now got online - approximately 10:45 PM Sunday). 

I will answer your question, if you would be so kind as to repeat it. 

Thus far, I haven't written anything under this topic, for many reasons which I will detail later.... maybe.

Bob

Everyone wants a secure election.  But why would anyone not agree with voter ID being required in every state?  What would be the motivating factor for not wanting it?  Common sense is that we should make sure whoever is voting is indeed who they say they are.  Give me one good reason why voter ID is a bad idea?

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 04, 2021, 11:20:02 PM
Everyone wants a secure election.  But why would anyone not agree with voter ID being required in every state?  What would be the motivating factor for not wanting it?  Common sense is that we should make sure whoever is voting is indeed who they say they are.  Give me one good reason why voter ID is a bad idea?

GR2: That is the question to which I thought you were referring.  I "butted in" because I wrote a private message to Rich (Mighty) a day or two ago, which is reproduced below:

Rich: The thread about the All-Star game is a perfect example of what I was talking about. The issue is free and fair elections.  The answer is simple.
Yet politicians are happy to have the people distracted, fighting among themselves (while the politicians live on our tax dollars, steal money, and wield power to benefit themselves personally).
In this digital age, is it REALLY so difficult to design a system of one man, one vote?  I think not.

As I hope you will agree, that is the answer to your question.  I'm trying to say as little as possible, but will add one more thing. It concerns a post by H-Town about three pages back, part of which is reproduced below:

For those still spouting the voter fraud argument, you need to understand that it was never a real position and the attorneys who were touting it in multiple states have had to retract their statements in an effort to protect themselves. Sidney Powell, Trump's attorney, had to declare in briefing - and I quote - "reasonable people would not accept such statements as fact but view them only as claims that await testing by the courts through the adversary process." (And please understand that statements in pleadings carry great weight not only in that particular case but across the board because attorneys can be held to those statements regardless of where they were made since they have a duty not just to their client but to the law and the courts themselves.) The "statements" referenced therein are the allegations of widespread (indeed even non-widespread, just marginally identifiable) voter fraud. And those claims which "awaited testing" were thrown out because the testing revealed the claims were wholly un-meritorious. Long story short: there was no there there.

To break it down even further: in this election cycle, there has not been a cognizable legal argument that voter fraud affected this election that has survived the most basic of scrutiny. If you believe the contrary, you're engaging in a conspiracy theory. You're just wrong. Republican and democratic judges alike have rejected these spurious cases.

I have omitted the small, but clearly opinionated portion of the post, but want to say that the above paragraphs, while exhibiting a bit of editorial flair, are substantially true and correct. I believe this because it is likely that I read many of the same pleadings and documents as H-Town read in making his determination.

I will add only that (as of today) there are still many ongoing (and yet to be "finalized") cases and legislative and other governmental investigations in various jurisdictions. They raise a variety of big and small election-related issues. For political reasons, it is likely some will be dragged out so that their "findings" or outcomes will occur as near as possible to the next batch of elections (to be used as "weapons" by cynical politicians.  Further, keeping election issues alive is also useful for distracting attention from REAL issues.... one of them is the ongoing humanitarian crisis at the southern border.  There are and will be many others.

Bob

Wow.  That couldn't have been better stated.  Interestingly we won't know if there truly was fraud that could have changed the election until actual and factual investigations are done.  There wasn't enough time to investigate and there certainly won't be a fair investigation under the new administration.  Which is exactly why no one can truthfully state whether it happened or not.  I believe fraud happened and it effected the outcome.  But I can not state it as a fact.  It's my opinion.  It's the same for anyone stating the contrary.

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 12:01:57 AM
Wow.  That couldn't have been better stated.  Interestingly we won't know if there truly was fraud that could have changed the election until actual and factual investigations are done.  There wasn't enough time to investigate and there certainly won't be a fair investigation under the new administration.  Which is exactly why no one can truthfully state whether it happened or not.  I believe fraud happened and it effected the outcome.  But I can not state it as a fact.  It's my opinion.  It's the same for anyone stating the contrary.

It is actually not that interesting. There was not any massive voter fraud. The prewidential election was not stolen. These are facts whether you wish to accept them or not. 

Anyone stating anything other than this is an unwitting puppet. Truly sorry if this includes you.

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Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 04, 2021, 11:20:02 PM
Everyone wants a secure election.  But why would anyone not agree with voter ID being required in every state?  What would be the motivating factor for not wanting it?  Common sense is that we should make sure whoever is voting is indeed who they say they are.  Give me one good reason why voter ID is a bad idea?

We already have voter ID, or have you never voted? This issue is not about that at all. Although it long has been concluded that that voter fraud is sufficiently rare that it simply could not and does not happen at the rate even approaching that which would be required to alter the outcome of an election, this was one of, if not the most reviewed, scrutinized, and analyzed election in history conducted by State, Federal (DOJ) and private (Brennan Center) entities. In all cases, it was concluded that there was no evidence of voter fraud.

Indeed, Trump's Attorney General William Barr declared last December 1st that the U.S. Justice Department has uncovered no evidence of voter fraud that could change the outcome of the 2020 election. He made quite clear to Trump and his sycophants, and the otherwise delusional Trumpists that Biden was properly elected to succeed him. So after being told that the last election wasn't rigged, the GOP have decided to do what they can to make sure the next one is as much as possible. Failing that, they will just have to do a better job in turning out the racists, xenophobes, religious bigots and their delusional miscellany than apparently they didn't quite manage in the last election.

Quote from: PSUBeirut on April 05, 2021, 12:06:47 AM
It is actually not that interesting. There was not any massive voter fraud. The prewidential election was not stolen. These are facts whether you wish to accept them or not. 

Anyone stating anything other than this is an unwitting puppet. Truly sorry if this includes you.

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Sure...you know this how?  What evidence have you reviewed?  Oh the evidence released by main stream media?  The same media that spewed Trump hatred for almost 5 years.  Unbiased, fair and balanced you say.  Meanwhile votes where being counted for weeks, after hours, after certain people were sent home.  Nothing to see here.  Just because they don

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 12:30:56 AM
Sure...you know this how?  What evidence have you reviewed?  Oh the evidence released by main stream media?  The same media that spewed Trump hatred for almost 5 years.  Unbiased, fair and balanced you say.  Meanwhile votes where being counted for weeks, after hours, after certain people were sent home.  Nothing to see here.  Just because they don

Quote from: Painter on April 05, 2021, 12:13:28 AM
We already have voter ID, or have you never voted? This issue is not about that at all. Although it long has been concluded that that voter fraud is sufficiently rare that it simply could not and does not happen at the rate even approaching that which would be required to alter the outcome of an election, this was one of, if not the most reviewed, scrutinized, and analyzed election in history conducted by State, Federal (DOJ) and private (Brennan Center) entities. In all cases, it was concluded that there was no evidence of voter fraud.

Indeed, Trump's Attorney General William Barr declared last December 1st that the U.S. Justice Department has uncovered no evidence of voter fraud that could change the outcome of the 2020 election. He made quite clear to Trump and his sycophants, and the otherwise delusional Trumpists that Biden was properly elected to succeed him. So after being told that the last election wasn't rigged, the GOP have decided to do what they can to make sure the next one is as much as possible. Failing that, they will just have to do a better job in turning out the racists, xenophobes, religious bigots and their delusional miscellany than apparently they didn't quite manage in the last election.

If we already have voter id. Why is everyone up in arms about Georgia doing it?  We do not have voter ID everywhere.  Some places have it some don

Quote from: PSUBeirut on April 05, 2021, 12:46:08 AM
Again. Truly sorry. I have a few relatives in the same boat and it breaks my heart. Have a great Easter weekend.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I feel sorry for this country and it

Well I think this is a bit heated.. how about getting ACL to the Giants???

Autocorrect bah... back to the Giants!

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 12:54:56 AM

If we already have voter id. Why is everyone up in arms about Georgia doing it?  We do not have voter ID everywhere.  Some places have it some don

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 07:39:24 AM
Don

Any chance the PGA cancels the Masters? Or at least moves it to a different state?

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 05, 2021, 08:02:50 AM
Any chance the PGA cancels the Masters? Or at least moves it to a different state?

Last I heard the PGA is staying in Ga and has no intentions on moving!

Good for them!!!

There is a reason America

Quote from: uconnjack8 on April 02, 2021, 04:32:11 PM
What's the over/under on the length of time before this thread is shut down?

I had under 24 hours, so I lost my bet on this, but I think it's time for the Mods to kill this thread.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 05, 2021, 08:02:50 AM
Any chance the PGA cancels the Masters? Or at least moves it to a different state?

Let

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 05, 2021, 08:02:50 AM
Any chance the PGA cancels the Masters? Or at least moves it to a different state?

They should, a strong message needs to be sent to the people who seek to rob Americans of their right to vote.  This isn't a Republican VS Democratic thing or a liberal VS conservative issue, this an issue of right VS wrong.   Anyone seeking to make it harder to vote (to prevent voting) or making it less pleasant to vote (by criminalizing handing someone on line a bottle of water) or changes the law so that politicians can overturn the will of the voters (perhaps the most heinous part of Georgia's anti-voter bill) is wrong.   Right and wrong still matter.  In fact, it matters now more than ever.  Facts also matter and we should not dismiss the news or the media, the long-time watchdogs of our freedoms because some self-serving politician with a long history of lying and fraud tells us to. 

We must stand up for what is right and support American values of fairness and democracy.  We can't allow the anti-voter forces to turn our nation into a dictatorship (they attempted 2 coups already, one in Congress and one on January 6th) to win.    We need to stand firm that it is the RIGHT of every American to vote, have their vote COUNTED, and have EQUAL access to the polls.    People who are playing games with our voting for their political gains are a true threat to our freedoms, rights, and liberties.

If not, the next time some twice impeached/twice lost (lost the popular vote twice) president in power starts making phone calls to local politicians to try and overthrow an election, our institutions of democracy may not hold.   We must protect the values like freedom, democracy, and equality or we may lose them.   As the legandary President Reagan once said:


"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same."

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 08:29:00 AM

If not, the next time some twice impeached/twice lost (lost the popular vote twice) president in power starts making phone calls to local politicians to try and overthrow an election, our institutions of democracy may not hold.   We must protect the values like freedom, democracy, and equality or we may lose them.   As the well loved President Reagan once said:


"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same."

You do realize the popular vote doesn

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 08:29:00 AM
They should, a strong message needs to be sent to the people who seek to rob Americans of their right to vote.  This isn't a Republican VS Democratic thing or a liberal VS conservative issue, this an issue of right VS wrong.   Anyone seeking to make it harder to vote (to prevent voting) or making it less pleasant to vote (by criminalizing handing someone on line a bottle of water) or changes the law so that politicians can overturn the will of the voters (perhaps the most heinous part of Georgia's anti-voter bill) is wrong.   Right and wrong still matter.  In fact, it matters now more than ever.  Facts also matter and we should not dismiss the news or the media, the long-time watchdogs of our freedoms because some self-serving politician with a long history of lying and fraud tells us to. 

We must stand up for what is right and support American values of fairness and democracy.  We can't allow the anti-voter forces to turn our nation into a dictatorship (they attempted 2 coups already, one in Congress and one on January 6th) to win.    We need to stand firm that it is the RIGHT of every American to vote, have their vote COUNTED, and have EQUAL access to the polls.    People who are playing games with our voting for their political gains are a true threat to our freedoms, rights, and liberties.

If not, the next time some twice impeached/twice lost (lost the popular vote twice) president in power starts making phone calls to local politicians to try and overthrow an election, our institutions of democracy may not hold.   We must protect the values like freedom, democracy, and equality or we may lose them.   As the legandary President Reagan once said:


"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same."

You didn

I see a lot of bemoaning about keeping politics out of sports by people on a sports forum talking about a whole lot of politics.

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There is something amusingly ironic about the fact that many people seem to want politics directly injected into sports, but god forbid anyone discusses politics in an internet chat room of all places. That of course is strictly off limits.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 08:55:25 AM
Not one person supporting these anti-voter laws (with all their efforts to whitewash them) has explained WHY the white Georgia Republicans created them in the first place.  The Republican Secretary of State said the will of the Georgian people was done in the last election and that it was a good election.   So the motive to make in criminal to hand out a bottle of water, or eliminate Sunday voting (by making it optional) or limit access to drop boxes (by making them accessible only during voting hours) or allowing Georgia legislator to overturn the democratic votes of Georgian Americans in favor of their party's candidate.   When someone can tell me why that doesn't involve having to believe the self-serving lies of a proven liar and fraud, I am willing to listen.  Until then, I see these anti-voter laws for what they are and the threat they pose to our nation.

And not one against them can prove they are

Quote from: PSUBeirut on April 05, 2021, 08:53:38 AM
I see a lot of bemoaning about keeping politics out of sports by people on a sports forum talking about a whole lot of politics.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

There is a difference in fans debating a topic on a forum and a whole league and it

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 05, 2021, 08:56:46 AM
There is something amusingly ironic about the fact that many people seem to want politics directly injected into sports, but god forbid anyone discusses politics in an internet chat room of all places. That of course is strictly off limits.

Since you are new to the board you are not aware that it has been tried over and over again and ends the same way every time, I giant xxxx show with members leaving and huge messes to clean up.

Quote from: PSUBeirut on April 05, 2021, 08:53:38 AM
I see a lot of bemoaning about keeping politics out of sports by people on a sports forum talking about a whole lot of politics.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

It

Slugs- just because you don't understand something does not mean it is not true.


DaveBrown- this page had its own political section for years. the rules we have in place evolved because of what occurred when politics could be discussed.


Giatnsrevival - Welcome to the board, you seem to be throwing xxxx against the wall to see what sticks.  Clean up your content and delivery or i will.

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 04, 2021, 07:22:01 PM
Wrong the lawyers had to retract their statements because they we pressured to do so.  If they didn

Quote from: babywhales on April 05, 2021, 09:11:29 AM
Slugs- just because you don't understand something does not mean it is not true.


DaveBrown- this page had its own political section for years. the rules we have in place evolved because of what occurred when politics could be discussed.


Giatnsrevival - Welcome to the board, you seem to be throwing xxxx against the wall to see what sticks.  Clean up your content and delivery or i will.

Baby

What don

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 08:59:48 AM
And not one against them can prove they are

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 09:14:37 AM
I read what you posted, but it doesn't explain or even attempt to explain Georgia's anti-voting laws.   If you are going to make major and massive changes in very important laws, there should be reasonable and easy to explain motives as to why.   The fact that you are unable to produce such an explanation, even a poor one, is very very damning.

Again please prove how they are anti voting and if you read the PBS article it states what the laws changed and shows how it expanded voting.

I have still yet to see how ANYONE has shown or proven its anti-voting other than just saying it.  The laws as written show the contrary. 

They have more early voting days than NY or NJ.  The laws as written in Ga give the Ga people more flexibility in voting than both Ny and NJ (both Democratic states) do.

I don

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 09:21:54 AM
Again please prove how they are anti voting and if you read the PBS article it states what the laws changed and shows how it expanded voting.

I have still yet to see how ANYONE has shown or proven its anti-voting other than just saying it.  The laws as written show the contrary. 

They have more early voting days than NY or NJ.  The laws as written in Ga give the Ga people more flexibility in voting than both Ny and NJ (both Democratic states) do.

I don

Quote from: uconnjack8 on April 05, 2021, 08:14:55 AM
I had under 24 hours, so I lost my bet on this, but I think it's time for the Mods to kill this thread.

Noted, no one missed your first declaration

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 09:37:17 AM
Baby you may think your

Actually wasn

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 09:29:53 AM
Paul,

I don't know if you realize, but the logical and honest approach to looking at Georgia's anti-voter laws is to compare it to the laws before the bill.  It's beyond illogical (and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not attempting to mislead) to compare Georgia's laws in other states.   So compare the change, don't compare to other states.

I am still waiting for the motive/reason for these laws, as the clear to anyone willing to look at them fairly and without bias can see they are intended to make it harder for minorities to vote and give the Republicans a a huge an un-American advantage in future elections (and failing that they will simply vote to overturn the will of the people)

Rich

You are correct I am not looking to mislead but to help get proper information out.

I am using other states just to show how the law has opened up more days and opportunities.  Again did you read the PBS article and see how the law has expanded voting, set parameters for drop boxes that there was never a law for and allows mail in voting with ZERO reason needed to be given?

Why was this changed, it

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 09:52:15 AM

Why was this changed, it

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 09:37:17 AM
Baby you may think your

Quote from: babywhales on April 05, 2021, 10:21:27 AM



Your kidding me right?  I spoke to your content and delivery.  You speak in partisan genialized talking points with zero substance.  You have invoked more side issues inot this thread than anyone.  You failed to stay on topic, i.e. All Star game and Election laws. 


Then you invoke Cancel Culture? Seriously?  Save your generalized partisan crap from someone else. You have posted more unsubstantiated crap in this thread then I have time to address.  While I drink my first cup of coffee I will discuss the idea of cancel culture as you seem to be using the term so frequently.


Cancel Culture is not a party issue or an ideological issue.  Its a cultural one that has afflicted all in our country for sometime. Republicans are just as guilty as anyone else.  Not more than, not less than, but just as much. this has been true for sometime, not just recently.



This goes back in our nations history to using courts to close down papers such as The True American during the Civil War.   more of the same,  moving forward using the courts to quit those opposed to the WW1 calling it Anti War Speech, lets jump forward another 30 years and McCarthy's red witch hunt, using the US State Department to revoke passports of those who have political speech they do not like,  etc...  To even try to claim that this is a liberal or democratic issue is disingenuous.


A large minority, if not a majority of republicans are all in on cancel culture like anyone else these days.

Current cries in the past week to boycott the MLB, the past cries to boycott the NFL, the national attmept to boycott Walmart when they isued nationwide mask  requirements(as if rural republicans could ever not enter a Walmart), boycott any celebrity who speaks who is not Ted Nugent, Scott Baio, etc, etc. 

In a matter related to this very thread when the election didn't go their way they tried to have millions of votes thrown out with no evidence.  Votes in Republican states, overseen by republican officials yet them tried to imply fowl play with no evidence.  Conservative State Supreme Courts through out cases when they asked for evidence and non could be produced.  Rudy, in front of a federal judge, when asked do you have evidence to support his damming claims, stated " No, it is not a fraud case"  then went and made more public claims to manipulate his base.

Marjorie Greene fully supported Trump when he was tweeting for support to cancel the NFL saying he Colin was a "destructive vocal influencer"  but then didn't like it when she herself was attacked " You shouldn't have to stop speaking the truth and posting about your political beliefs in order to continue your work"


Matt Gaetz trying to cancel out Chaney because he didn't like her vote against Trump. Maybe he is wishing he was not the political celebrity he so desperately tried to become.


CPAC's announcement to remove the 17 GOP members of Congress who voted against Trump.
Arizonia's attempt to let the GOP state legislature to pick the president and not the votes in the election.


Spare me the notion that hypocrisy is a party issue. Both sides can be barely finish one comment before they contradict it with their next comment. 


Unless of course the claims are made in an echo chamber and then the circle jerk that follows is self serving. Which after all is the point today, is it not?


Its a sign of the times for all no doubt; nevertheless, it certainly seems when they are doing the cancelling they are all for it. When it is against them they cry and complain. 


The end result is the overuse of the word to the point it had little to no definition and less value outside of a rally cry for those who don't understand it and/or can't recognize the irony of their draw to it.

Republicans do not use cancel culture like the Dems. Sure they use it too. But it

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 09:53:43 AM
Please explain this in detail and documentation would be nice

Rich

I have asked multiple times for you to show proof of your claim of this policy being anti-voter.  You have not been able to, refused to or have ignored my statement.

Yet now you are looking for me to explain and document? 

I have examples in my previous posts that are VERY EASY to understand and look up and are factual.  Yet you have yet to provide one fact of this anti-voter agenda you are stating as fact.

I find that interesting.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 10:37:36 AM
Republicans do not use cancel culture like the Dems.

Republicans like Trump and Bobert and many others were successfully sued after they canceled followers on Twitter

Republicans wanted to cancel the NFL and the NBA (along with players) because some of the players engaged in gestures that supported racial equality

Republicans want to cancel MLB (calling for boycotts) for their actions in reference to the MLB movement of the all-star game

Republicans have also past laws that prevent the CDC from studying gun violence

There were Trump supporter calls to boycott Budweiser for their pro-immigration ads run during the Super Bowls

Remember when Republicans tried to cancel Nike and made shows of it burning their shirts and sneakers?


So forgive me if I don't for a minute believe a claim that "Republicans don't use cancel culture"

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 10:41:56 AM
Rich

I have asked multiple times for you to show proof of your claim of this policy being anti-voter.  You have not been able to, refused to or have ignored my statement.

Yet now you are looking for me to explain and document? 

I have examples in my previous posts that are VERY EASY to understand and look up and are factual.  Yet you have yet to provide one fact of this anti-voter agenda you are stating as fact.

I find that interesting.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So are you admitting that you can in no way, shape, or form can justify all these new laws?   When the people who lost the last election make a bunch of changes in the election laws to make it harder for targeted people to vote, it's incumbent on them (and their supporters) to justify the CHANGES, not on me.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 10:47:13 AM
Republicans like Trump and Bobert and many others were successfully sued after they canceled followers on Twitter

Republicans wanted to cancel the NFL and the NBA (along with players) because some of the players engaged in gestures that supported racial equality

Republicans want to cancel MLB (calling for boycotts) for their actions in reference to the MLB movement of the all-star game

Republicans have also past laws that prevent the CDC from studying gun violence

There were Trump supporter calls to boycott Budweiser for their pro-immigration ads run during the Super Bowls

Remember when Republicans tried to cancel Nike and made shows of it burning their shirts and sneakers?


So forgive me if I don't for a minute believe a claim that "Republicans don't use cancel culture"



So are you admitting that you can in no way, shape, or form can justify all these new laws?   When the people who lost the last election make a bunch of changes in the election laws to make it harder for targeted people to vote, it's incumbent on them (and their supporters) to justify the CHANGES, not on me.

No I

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 10:37:36 AM
Republicans do not use cancel culture like the Dems. Sure they use it too. But it

Quote from: babywhales on April 05, 2021, 11:00:30 AM

Let's make one thing abundantly clear, this is private board. Your acceptance and existence here is based on our approval. 


If you can not develop a point and deliver it in a way that is conducive to well being of the board the odds are you will get edited, if it continues you will get suspended, if it continues you will get banned. You do not have to agree with me or anyone else on a topic, but you do have to develop your point, select your content and delivery said point in an appropriate manner. If you want to behave like a politically driven partisan hack, spewing biased unsubstantiated drivel go somewhere else with it. 


Like it or hate it I do not care what you think about it.


When a moderator or administrator tells you something it is best to listen.  My comments come from experience moderating the old Backporch and just under 2 decades of cleaning up threads that people have tainted.


As a side note, what I do or do not do related to Slugs or anyone else is none of your business.  I have agreed and disagreed with him on a variety of topics for years and done so appropriately without partisan rhetoric.

You sure like to threaten.  I made my points that no one was able to refute.  Still never got a good answer to my question.  I think it

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 10:49:54 AM
No I

Again, we can discuss this and get heated, but the line has to be when there are personal attacks. I feel a thread should not be shut down if one individual can't follow the basic principle of not attacking his fellow poster personally for his opinion. Just block that person and we can move on.

As for the topic at hand, there is still is no honest answer as to why any of these laws are now being introduced. We know that there was no fraud in the last election. That has been proved ad nauseum. So why now? And why in these particular states? Answer please?

Probably a good idea to just not have threads like this here.   It's just going to be the same Conservative vs Liberal fights you see everywhere else these days.  Too many people have their lives literally revolving around politics these days.  Find something else to fulfill yourself.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 11:27:53 AM
Paul,

Don't you think that a law that affects our sacred right to vote should have been a partisan effort and not ran through on a GOP only party line?  Especially after that same GOP lost the Presidential and Senate elections/

Rich

I would love all our policies to be done as such.  Sadly much like the unaffordable care act, in today

Microsoft does a good job explaining why they oppose the Georgia Republican's laws for limiting voting rights

https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2021/03/31/why-we-are-concerned-about-georgias-new-election-law/

Quote from: katkavage on April 05, 2021, 11:35:11 AM
Again, we can discuss this and get heated, but the line has to be when there are personal attacks. I feel a thread should not be shut down if one individual can't follow the basic principle of not attacking his fellow poster personally for his opinion. Just block that person and we can move on.

As for the topic at hand, there is still is no honest answer as to why any of these laws are now being introduced. We know that there was no fraud in the last election. That has been proved ad nauseum. So why now? And why in these particular states? Answer please?

Kat

I agree if people can have a convo threads shouldn

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 11:59:54 AM
Microsoft does a good job explaining why they oppose the Georgia Republican's laws for limiting voting rights

https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2021/03/31/why-we-are-concerned-about-georgias-new-election-law/

Rich

Thanks for sharing

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 12:09:39 PM
Rich

Thanks for sharing

Here's a contrarian view to think about.  We're on page 6 of this topic and it's relatively civil.  It has not descended into a shouting match.  I doubt that the amount of back-and-forth here would have been possible in most places I visit.  So congratulations to the many posters here who have stated arguments and stayed on topic.

Proves that Giants fans are just 100% superior to all other fans.

I personally think that the whole ID position by the "woke"  left and Dems is completely disingenuous and really insidously racist.  Like black people cant figure out how to get ID????  Really???? How extremely insulting.  You need ID for booze and cigarettes, ID to rent a hotel or car, ID at the bank, ID at the doctors office, ID to pick up tix at a will call window, ID to get a plane or train ticket, ID to get a freakin' COVID shot, etc, etc. But you don't need ID to vote...that is just plain Bull Crap and added to that, the misrepresentation of the law by the President and by the main stream media is a disgrace.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 12:38:49 PM
Paul,

I am sure you feel that your right to own firearms is a sacred right and that any infringement on that right has to be justified X2

Why do you feel that people's sacred right to vote can be needlessly infringed upon by single political party for political gain?

The important question is who would be restricted by these new laws and how do those potentially affected people vote?  If it's spread relatively evenly across the socio-economic/racial/eithnic universe no harm no foul, but if it doesn't affect say upper middle class married couple with two cars and able to move around easily and to/from their one job, but it does overly affect say someone who has to take two buses to work and works maybe 2 minimum wage jobs (like many poor people have to do), then that is deplorable.  Providing access means making it relatively easy for everyone. 

Quote from: expatriot on April 05, 2021, 12:54:08 PM
I personally think that the whole ID position by the "woke"  left and Dems is completely disingenuous and really insidously racist.  Like black people cant figure out how to get ID????  Really???? How extremely insulting.  You need ID for booze and cigarettes, ID to rent a hotel or car, ID at the bank, ID at the doctors office, ID to pick up tix at a will call window, ID to get a plane or train ticket, ID to get a freakin' COVID shot, etc, etc. But you don't need ID to vote...that is just plain Bull Crap and added to that, the misrepresentation of the law by the President and by the main stream media is a disgrace.

Quote from: Philosophers on April 05, 2021, 12:54:53 PM
The important question is who would be restricted by these new laws and how do those potentially affected people vote?  If it's spread relatively evenly across the socio-economic/racial/eithnic universe no harm no foul, but if it doesn't affect say upper middle class married couple with two cars and able to move around easily and to/from their one job, but it does overly affect say someone who has to take two buses to work and works maybe 2 minimum wage jobs (like many poor people have to do), then that is deplorable.  Providing access means making it relatively easy for everyone. 

I think this except from the ACLU fact sheet addresses both of these posts.  The facts cited are all referenced (go to the link) with various studies and statistics.


Voter ID Laws Deprive Many Americans of the Right to Vote

Millions of Americans Lack ID. 11% of U.S. citizens

The SAME PEOPLE who chose Biden, Warnock & Ossoff (all Democrats) in 2020 also chose the GA state legislature (Republicans) who passed the new voting law. The people have spoken.   =)) =)) =)) Bob

Quote from: expatriot on April 05, 2021, 12:54:08 PM
I personally think that the whole ID position by the "woke"  left and Dems is completely disingenuous and really insidously racist.  Like black people cant figure out how to get ID????  Really???? How extremely insulting.  You need ID for booze and cigarettes, ID to rent a hotel or car, ID at the bank, ID at the doctors office, ID to pick up tix at a will call window, ID to get a plane or train ticket, ID to get a freakin' COVID shot, etc, etc. But you don't need ID to vote...that is just plain Bull Crap and added to that, the misrepresentation of the law by the President and by the main stream media is a disgrace.

Its all about implementation in my opinion.


Here is Wisconsin after the ID Law was passed in 2011, the State Closed 16 DMV centers that provide the needed ID's to the public.  The offices were located in traditional lower income  democratic geographical locations.


The voting ID's had to be free to be constitutional and several facilities were caught charging or turning people away.  Not a ton but just another layer of the implementation problem.


The concept of the ID is fine IMO, based on a very limited voter fraud history in Wisconsin it was arguably unnecessary and more grandstanding than anything.  Either way, the way it was implemented was not fair. to all.   


With all the recounts Wisconsin has experienced in the past 20 years each has served as a an audit of the election protocols, there simply was not fraud that justified it. 


I'm fine with it but lets not pretend it was not needed in Wisconsin based on past elections.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 12:38:49 PM
Paul,

I am sure you feel that your right to own firearms is a sacred right and that any infringement on that right has to be justified X2

Why do you feel that people's sacred right to vote can be needlessly infringed upon by single political party for political gain?

Rich

Show me where their right to vote is being infringed?

I can show you where my right to bare arms HAS and continues to be infringed is.

But there is nothing in these laws that prevents people from voting.  No where!

Show me where they are being infringed upon.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: expatriot on April 05, 2021, 12:54:08 PM
I personally think that the whole ID position by the "woke"  left and Dems is completely disingenuous and really insidously racist.  Like black people cant figure out how to get ID????  Really???? How extremely insulting.  You need ID for booze and cigarettes, ID to rent a hotel or car, ID at the bank, ID at the doctors office, ID to pick up tix at a will call window, ID to get a plane or train ticket, ID to get a freakin' COVID shot, etc, etc. But you don't need ID to vote...that is just plain Bull Crap and added to that, the misrepresentation of the law by the President and by the main stream media is a disgrace.

If I may ask, where are you getting your info from--that bastion of truth FOX News?

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 01:00:56 PM
I think this except from the ACLU fact sheet addresses both of these posts.  The facts cited are all referenced (go to the link) with various studies and statistics.

Several founders of the ACLU believe that institution is no longer serving its original purpose. I don't pay any attention to them these days, although I absolutely love what they once stood for.  Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 05, 2021, 01:01:28 PM
The SAME PEOPLE who chose Biden, Warnock & Ossoff (all Democrats) in 2020 also chose the GA state legislature (Republicans) who passed the new voting law. The people have spoken.   =)) =)) =)) Bob

Bob,

Your joke speaks to the heart of the issue.  The people that voted for Biden and the two Democratic senators are not the same people who voted in the Republicans.  The Republicans are abusing their power to make sure "those people" don't vote again and the Republicans can wield dictatorial power.

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 01:09:48 PM
Rich

Show me where their right to vote is being infringed?

I can show you where my right to bare arms HAS and continues to be infringed is.

But there is nothing in these laws that prevents people from voting.  No where!

Show me where they are being infringed upon.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Paul,

Microsoft already showed how voter's rights were infringed upon.   Also, let us not parse words.  You used the word "allow" but you know full well the intention of these anti-voter laws is to DISCOURAGE. Make it harder for minorities to cast their vote with the intention of hoping they will stop voting.

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 05, 2021, 01:12:10 PM
Several founders of the ACLU believe that institution is no longer serving its original purpose. I don't pay any attention to them these days, although I absolutely love what they once stood for.  Bob

Bob, are you really going to try the shoot the messenger trick?!?  facts are facts regardless of who cites them.  They are all properly sourced and valid regardless of your personal opinions about the ACLU

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 01:00:56 PM

I think this except from the ACLU fact sheet addresses both of these posts.  The facts cited are all referenced (go to the link) with various studies and statistics.


Voter ID Laws Deprive Many Americans of the Right to Vote

Millions of Americans Lack ID. 11% of U.S. citizens

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 01:15:37 PM
Bob,

Your joke speaks to the heart of the issue.  The people that voted for Biden and the two Democratic senators are not the same people who voted in the Republicans.  The Republicans are abusing their power to make sure "those people" don't vote again and the Republicans can wield dictatorial power.

Paul,

Microsoft already showed how voter's rights were infringed upon.   Also, let us not parse words.  You used the word "allow" but you know full well the intention of these anti-voter laws is to DISCOURAGE. Make it harder for minorities to cast their vote with the intention of hoping they will stop voting.


Bob, are you really going to try the shoot the messenger trick?!?  facts are facts regardless of who cites them.  They are all properly sourced and valid regardless of your personal opinions about the ACLU

Rich

We can agree to disagree your views is your own but what Microsoft said is clear as day. In the quote I posted.  You want to deny that it

Quote from: expatriot on April 05, 2021, 12:54:08 PM
I personally think that the whole ID position by the "woke"  left and Dems is completely disingenuous and really insidously racist.  Like black people cant figure out how to get ID????  Really???? How extremely insulting.  You need ID for booze and cigarettes, ID to rent a hotel or car, ID at the bank, ID at the doctors office, ID to pick up tix at a will call window, ID to get a plane or train ticket, ID to get a freakin' COVID shot, etc, etc. But you don't need ID to vote...that is just plain Bull Crap and added to that, the misrepresentation of the law by the President and by the main stream media is a disgrace.

I don't mean to call you out - I am responding to your post. I think it is extremely presumptuous and it teeters on being blind to one's own privilege. The items above are highlighted because not all black people smoke and drink, rent hotels and cars, go to the bank or doctor's office regularly, or pick up tickets at will call, or travel by plane or train. Those are luxury expenses that many at or below the poverty level simply cannot afford.

It's simple enough to you because it's a part of your life. Not so much for the millions who can't afford to live as you and others.

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 01:17:08 PM
Rich

The whole ID thing is a mute point from common sense and is just a talking point of the left which is racists in its own right making it sound like lower income people can

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 01:19:42 PM
I don't mean to call you out - I am responding to your post. I think it is extremely presumptuous and it teeters on being blind to one's own privilege. The items above are highlighted because not all black people smoke and drink, rent hotels and cars, go to the bank or doctor's office regularly, or pick up tickets at will call, or travel by plane or train. Those are luxury expenses that many at or below the poverty level simply cannot afford.

It's simple enough to you because it's a part of your life. Not so much for the millions who can't afford to live as you and others.

T

I think it

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 01:20:28 PM
Paul,

We were having such a good and productive conversation.   I am disappointed that your response to documented facts were to toss about false political talking points like:

"The whole ID thing is a mute point from common sense and is just a talking point of the left which is racists in its own right making it sound like lower income people can

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 05, 2021, 01:12:10 PM
Several founders of the ACLU believe that institution is no longer serving its original purpose. I don't pay any attention to them these days, although I absolutely love what they once stood for.  Bob

I hear you, Bob. While not really comparable except for "... no longer serving its original purpose." it does cause me to reflect on the fact that I was once a strong supporter of the no longer recognizable and now disgusting Republican Party which began putrefying even before Pyschobaby.

Cheers!

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 01:24:35 PM
Rich

But that is how it is coming off.  I

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 01:15:37 PM
Bob, Your joke speaks to the heart of the issue.  The people that voted for Biden and the two Democratic senators are not the same people who voted in the Republicans.  The Republicans are abusing their power to make sure "those people" don't vote again and the Republicans can wield dictatorial power.

Rich: The 2020 election in Georgia was not just for President and U.S. Senate, but ALSO for the vast majority of the GA state legislature. Essentially, the SAME PEOPLE voted for all of them. Bob

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 01:17:08 PM
Rich

The whole ID thing is a mute point from common sense and is just a talking point of the left which is racists in its own right making it sound like lower income people can

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 01:30:15 PM
FACT-  11% of all Americans do not have an ID.   

The problem is as Tim (T200) said you and others don't spend any time in areas of poverty or with impoverished families.   You assume that everyone enjoys that same standard of living and the same access to needs that you do.  That is a very bad assumption.    You don't understand what it's like not to have enough money to buy food to eat.  You don't understand what it's like to not own a car and not have enough money for Uber or Taxis.   

Of course, the Republicans in Georgia that passed these anti-voters laws fully understand all these facts.  That's why they knew their anti-voter laws targeting the poor would hurt the minority communities and benefit themselves in future elections.

It's a game of social chess. You can't directly go after your opponent's King. You have to strategize to weaken their defenses, take out key members and then attack.

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 05, 2021, 01:30:23 PM
Rich: The 2020 election in Georgia was not just for President and U.S. Senate, but ALSO for the vast majority of the GA state legislature. Essentially, the SAME PEOPLE voted for all of them. Bob

That is the problem with Gerrymandering, but that's a whole other major discussion

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 01:19:42 PM
I don't mean to call you out - I am responding to your post. I think it is extremely presumptuous and it teeters on being blind to one's own privilege. The items above are highlighted because not all black people smoke and drink, rent hotels and cars, go to the bank or doctor's office regularly, or pick up tickets at will call, or travel by plane or train. Those are luxury expenses that many at or below the poverty level simply cannot afford.

It's simple enough to you because it's a part of your life. Not so much for the millions who can't afford to live as you and others.

Tim: I believe even the most severely impoverished and underprivileged citizens of this country have a Social Security number.  How else would they apply for and receive government benefits? Bob

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 01:30:15 PM
FACT-  11% of all Americans do not have an ID.   

The problem is as Tim (T200) said you and others don't spend any time in areas of poverty or with impoverished families.   You assume that everyone enjoys that same standard of living and the same access to needs that you do.  That is a very bad assumption.    You don't understand what it's like not to have enough money to buy food to eat.  You don't understand what it's like to not own a car and not have enough money for Uber or Taxis.   

Of course, the Republicans in Georgia that passed these anti-voters laws fully understand all these facts.  That's why they knew their anti-voter laws targeting the poor would hurt the minority communities and benefit themselves in future elections.

Rich

I work in the Bronx.  I am there working with the employees in restaurants in the Bronx every week.

My daughter dates a man of color.

I am not ignorant to the issues they deal with or the problems at hand.

11% of people do not have IDs. 

How many of that 11% can legally vote?

Of that number can they or would they be able to obtain an ID if given the opportunity?

It

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 01:35:15 PM
That is the problem with Gerrymandering, but that's a whole other major discussion

Rich: Regardless, the same people who elected Biden, Ossoff and Warnock also elected the state legislature that wrote the revised GA election law.  Bob

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 01:30:47 PM
Slugs,

My response to you will be similar to the one I posted to Expatriot. Blacks and other minorities living at or below the poverty level don't have the "entertainment" income that you and I and many others enjoy. They are barely scraping by. They typical hours of offices that provide IDs are generally the same time that they have to be at work to make ends meet. They don't accrue vacation time in many of these minimum wage jobs. Many don't have their own personal vehicle and they rely on public transportation.

It's sad that we truly don't try and understand other people's position. Instead, we inject ourselves into their shoes with all of our current "things" intact. "If I can do it, so can they." Not so.

T

See my later posts after this one.  I

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 05, 2021, 01:36:07 PM
Tim: I believe even the most severely impoverished and underprivileged citizens of this country have a Social Security number.  How else would they apply for and receive government benefits? Bob

Bob,

As far as I know, a social security card isn't sufficient to allow someone to vote. It must be a government-issued picture ID. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Regarding government benefits and other things like getting a bank account, I'm sure people had a valid ID at some point. But they expire after a number of years and must be renewed. I think that's where the problem comes in for many people.

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 01:19:42 PM
I don't mean to call you out - I am responding to your post. I think it is extremely presumptuous and it teeters on being blind to one's own privilege. The items above are highlighted because not all black people smoke and drink, rent hotels and cars, go to the bank or doctor's office regularly, or pick up tickets at will call, or travel by plane or train. Those are luxury expenses that many at or below the poverty level simply cannot afford.

It's simple enough to you because it's a part of your life. Not so much for the millions who can't afford to live as you and others.

Sorry I can

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 01:39:27 PM
T

See my later posts after this one. I

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 01:42:54 PM
Sorry I can

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 01:48:22 PM
This is where I really feel like a lack of empathy and understanding plays a huge role.

Just because there is a will, doesn't mean there is a way that doesn't jeopardize one's current status. For example, a single father of three school-age children is working two jobs, seven days a week at minimum wage to make ends meet. He gets no time off from either job. If he misses work, he doesn't get paid and risks getting laid off.

Voting happens every two years. Does he risk losing his job, his home, and his kids and take off work to get an ID that only benefits him once every two years?

This is far from an extreme case. People face these decisions every single day and have to weight what's more important.

Lack of empathy.  Voting ID is free and lasts for 8 years.  Spare me the pity.  Once every eight years you have to get an id.  Really?  Look up the information before you talk about something.  So a bar should serve someone because they are empathetic that someone doesn

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 01:48:22 PM
This is where I really feel like a lack of empathy and understanding plays a huge role.

Just because there is a will, doesn't mean there is a way that doesn't jeopardize one's current status. For example, a single father of three school-age children is working two jobs, seven days a week at minimum wage to make ends meet. He gets no time off from either job. If he misses work, he doesn't get paid and risks getting laid off.

Voting happens every two years. Does he risk losing his job, his home, and his kids and take off work to get an ID that only benefits him once every two years?

This is far from an extreme case. People face these decisions every single day and have to weight what's more important.

Well seeing as you don

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 01:42:54 PM
Sorry I can

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 01:40:52 PM
Bob,

As far as I know, a social security card isn't sufficient to allow someone to vote. It must be a government-issued picture ID. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Regarding government benefits and other things like getting a bank account, I'm sure people had a valid ID at some point. But they expire after a number of years and must be renewed. I think that's where the problem comes in for many people.

Tim: Time (for me!) to start thinking outside the box.  The Social Security Administration could easily and cheaply issue a Voter ID Number to every person who has a Social Security Number.

With this number, it's one man, one vote.  You put your official Voter ID Number on your ballot and either mail it in or bring it to the polling cite and drop it into a box.

As for those who do not have a Social Security Number, the government should have Form SS-5 available at every post office (and over the Internet).  Even the underprivileged have a post office near them.

Bob

PS. It's just that simple.  Tim, the political class doesn't really want to solve problems.  They want to keep divisive issues "alive" because doing so gets them more campaign contributions.

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 01:42:54 PM
Sorry I can

Quote from: Painter on April 05, 2021, 01:26:21 PM
I hear you, Bob. While not really comparable except for "... no longer serving its original purpose." it does cause me to reflect on the fact that I was once a strong supporter of the no longer recognizable and now disgusting Republican Party which began putrefying even before Pyschobaby.

Cheers!

The Republican Party I have occasionaly voted for in the past was easy to recognize.  Guys like Jack Kemp advocating small government but a large defense and a strong stance against the Soviet Union was easy to say yes or no to versus the alternative offered up by the Dems.  The party of folks like George Will, who will always be considered by me to be the "oracle" of what the Republican Party was has now been replaced by fringe candidates who dropped out of high school to have a kid, own a bar and think they are qualified to understand complicated U.S. public policy but in reality are only talented at tweeting conspiracy theories or others who have a lust for media attention in spite of an academic pedigree (Yes I'm talking about Ted Cruz) or dancing Sarah Palin, is just sad.   

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 01:58:00 PM
Here is an interesting fact.  To get one of those "free" ID cards you need to following:


To receive a free Georgia voter identification card at Georgia Driver Services, voters must provide:


An original or certified document to prove WHO YOU ARE such as a Birth Certificate or Passport.
Your SOCIAL SECURITY CARD.
Two documents showing your RESIDENTIAL ADDRESS such as a Bank Statement or Utility Bill.
If you've had a NAME CHANGE, then you'll also need to bring a document to prove that, such as a Marriage License.
Signed Affidavit.
Evidence that you are a registered voter.


I am curious how someone who is homeless and living in a shelter can get one of those "free" cards.  I mean they will not have a bank statement or utility bill.   Seems like there is a built-in bias right there.  Of course if the person lives in an apartment that includes utilities, a poor person would struggle to produce those two documents.   Of course, another expense is the travel expense required to get to the state or county office, and for a poor person that could mean the difference between eating for the week or not.

Also to address your comments about white people living in poverty, FACTS matter


Those living in poverty in Georgia

RACE & ETHNICITY

African American
21.5%
Asian American
9.4%
Latino
23.4%
Native American
19.9%
White
11.0%

At the same time Mighty if we can

Quote from: Philosophers on April 05, 2021, 02:03:21 PM
The Republican Party I have occasionaly voted for in the past was easy to recognize.  Guys like Jack Kemp advocating small government but a large defense and a strong stance against the Soviet Union was easy to say yes or no to versus the alternative offered up by the Dems.  The party of folks like George Will, who will always be considered by me to be the "oracle" of what the Republican Party was has now been replaced by fringe candidates who dropped out of high school to have a kid, own a bar and think they are qualified to understand complicated U.S. public policy but in reality are only talented at tweeting conspiracy theories or others who have a lust for media attention in spite of an academic pedigree (Yes I'm talking about Ted Cruz) or dancing Sarah Palin, is just sad.   

The other side has similar issues.  JFK wouldn

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 01:48:22 PM
This is where I really feel like a lack of empathy and understanding plays a huge role.

Just because there is a will, doesn't mean there is a way that doesn't jeopardize one's current status. For example, a single father of three school-age children is working two jobs, seven days a week at minimum wage to make ends meet. He gets no time off from either job. If he misses work, he doesn't get paid and risks getting laid off.

Voting happens every two years. Does he risk losing his job, his home, and his kids and take off work to get an ID that only benefits him once every two years?

This is far from an extreme case. People face these decisions every single day and have to weight what's more important.

I certainly understand that situation.  I came from a single parent household and lived in poverty through most of my childhood.  My mom never made any excuses she did what she had to do.  I

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 01:56:20 PM
Well seeing as you don

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 02:03:24 PM
At the same time Mighty if we can

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 02:00:15 PM
But clearly you're not. So not only do you not get to speak for us, you can't even speak hypothetically about what you would or would not do if you were one of us. You are blind to your own privilege.

I don't need you to tell me what I am capable of.

No one asked you to apologize for your success. It was never a topic.

Ignoring something doesn't make it go away. You see it, you address it and you deal with it until it is no longer a problem. My dad has heart problems. Should I tell him, "Daddy, just ignore it and it will go away???"

It's nice to feel that all Americans have equal opportunities for success. It just isn't true.

T

I agree with you there isn

Quote from: Painter on April 05, 2021, 01:26:21 PM
I hear you, Bob. While not really comparable except for "... no longer serving its original purpose." it does cause me to reflect on the fact that I was once a strong supporter of the no longer recognizable and now disgusting Republican Party which began putrefying even before Pyschobaby.

Larry: Somehow, I missed seeing your post when originally written.   

Your post is very interesting. Do you mean... rather than taking the more likely path (i.e., migrating from a liberal youth toward a more conservative approach as you aged) you went in the reverse direction?

Was it a result of changed positions on specific issues, or just a general like/dislike of the candidates offered up by the two parties... or something else?

Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 05, 2021, 01:58:47 PM
Tim: Time to start thinking outside the box.  The Social Security Administration could easily and cheaply issue a Voter ID Number to every person who has a Social Security Number.

With this number, it's one man, one vote.  You put your official Voter ID Number on your ballot and either mail it in or bring it to the polling cite and drop it into a box.

As for those who do not have a Social Security Number, the government should have Form SS-5 available at every post office (and over the Internet).  Even the underprivileged have a post office near them.

Bob

PS. It's just that simple.  Tim, the political class doesn't really want to solve problems.  They want to keep divisive issues "alive" because doing so gets them more campaign contributions.

Bob,

I didn't realize you were offering that as a potential solution. I like the Voter ID/SSAN use for mail-in/absentee ballots.

So what would be the process to request a voter ID? Will a new SSAN card be issued with the voter ID number on it as well? I think it should - one less thing to lose lol.

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 02:05:58 PM
I certainly understand that situation.  I came from a single parent household and lived in poverty through most of my childhood.  My mom never made any excuses she did what she had to do.  I

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 02:06:27 PM
And you and the GOP are just fine if the "some that are excluded" are mostly minorities.  It's of course purely coincidental that the laws help you the GOP turn our democracy into an effective dictatorship where you get to rule. 

I advocate for every American to have equal and fair access to voting and you and the Georgia GOP clearly oppose that.  It's why I refer to the Georia GOP's effort to rob Americans of their right to vote-  the anti-voting rules

You are putting words in my mouth unfairly.

I too want every legal American of age to have an opportunity to vote.

At the same time though I

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 02:06:16 PM
Slugs,

My response was solely about "if there's a will, there's a way." It was in no way a comment on your character or to make any sort of assumption about you.

:ok:

understood!  And as always we are good lol




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Philosophers on April 05, 2021, 02:03:21 PM
The Republican Party I have occasionaly voted for in the past was easy to recognize.  Guys like Jack Kemp advocating small government but a large defense and a strong stance against the Soviet Union was easy to say yes or no to versus the alternative offered up by the Dems.  The party of folks like George Will, who will always be considered by me to be the "oracle" of what the Republican Party was has now been replaced by fringe candidates who dropped out of high school to have a kid, own a bar and think they are qualified to understand complicated U.S. public policy but in reality are only talented at tweeting conspiracy theories or others who have a lust for media attention in spite of an academic pedigree (Yes I'm talking about Ted Cruz) or dancing Sarah Palin, is just sad.   

Phil: You "pre-answered" essentially the same question that I just directed to Larry (Painter).

It's interesting to me that we have at least two people here who went in that direction as they got older.

In your case it seems mostly it was your stance on the issues that changed (but also a like or dislike for various candidates).

Bob

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 02:11:23 PM
Bob,

I didn't realize you were offering that as a potential solution. I like the Voter ID/SSAN use for mail-in/absentee ballots.

So what would be the process to request a voter ID? Will a new SSAN card be issued with the voter ID number on it as well? I think it should - one less thing to lose lol.

Yea I like this idea!  It has some legs!!!!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 02:14:49 PM
You are putting words in my mouth unfairly.

I too want every legal American of age to have an opportunity to vote.

At the same time though I

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 02:10:44 PM
T

I agree with you there isn

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 02:17:57 PM
Paul,

The losers/GOP should have never unilaterally changed the voting laws to benefit themselves.   That is what is immoral and that is why MLB and many corporations and many Americans all object to the move.   If you wanted to steal the right to vote from Americans under the banner of voter security there should have been a proven need and a bipartisan effort.  Failing that, what we have is wrong and violates the foundational principles of our democracy.

Rich

They are in power not losers.  The Dems then in that case should have never passed through Obamacare.  The party in power sets the rules.  If the people aren

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 02:18:19 PM
I agree that we have come a long way and we have a long way yet to go.

But it is about race. Has been since foreigners landed here. And while systems have been changed to allow for more inclusion of minorities, they have also changed to exclude and keep them down, or at least limit what they can and can't do.

It's like radar detectors and radar-detector detectors.

I gotta bounce. Thanks for the discussion; always a good one with you.  :ok:

It is my friend and I appreciate you doing so as a gentleman as always.

I do agree there are a lot of things that still need to be done to change this.  Change can

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 02:11:23 PM
Bob,

I didn't realize you were offering that as a potential solution. I like the Voter ID/SSAN use for mail-in/absentee ballots.

So what would be the process to request a voter ID? Will a new SSAN card be issued with the voter ID number on it as well? I think it should - one less thing to lose lol.

Tim: Before answering, I amended my original post to make clear I was referring to myself, not you, when I said time to "think outside the box."

I actually wasn't offering a specific solution (until you inadvertently "challenged" me to provide one LOL).  Coming up with stuff like that was one of my "jobs" a while back. 

To answer your question, first, the idea isn't just for mail-in and absentee ballots.  You would take your Voter ID Number with you to the polls and enter it when you vote (whether they use paper ballots or machines).

You would not request a voter ID.  The legislature would, by writing a law, ORDER the Social Security Administration to send every registered SS number holder an additional number, to be known as a Voter ID Number.

You would receive it in the mail, or by Internet if you have an online account with Social Security Administration.

It could be on a separate card (one more thing to lose) or printed on the same card (but that has disadvantages, too.... if you lose one, you lose both!!!).  Hope your new enterprise is going well.

Bob

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 02:00:15 PM
But clearly you're not. So not only do you not get to speak for us, you can't even speak hypothetically about what you would or would not do if you were one of us. You are blind to your own privilege.

I don't need you to tell me what I am capable of.

No one asked you to apologize for your success. It was never a topic.

Ignoring something doesn't make it go away. You see it, you address it and you deal with it until it is no longer a problem. My dad has heart problems. Should I tell him, "Daddy, just ignore it and it will go away???"

It's nice to feel that all Americans have equal opportunities for success. It just isn't true.

You my friend are stereotyping. I grew up in poverty. You know nothing about me.  You assume you do.   I

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 02:05:17 PM
The other side has similar issues.  JFK wouldn

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 02:23:15 PM
Rich

They are in power not losers.  The Dems then in that case should have never passed through Obamacare.  The party in power sets the rules.  If the people aren

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 05, 2021, 02:15:54 PM
Phil: You "pre-answered" essentially the same question that I just directed to Larry (Painter).

It's interesting to me that we have at least two people here who went in that direction as they got older.

In your case it seems mostly it was your stance on the issues that changed (but also a like or dislike for various candidates).

Bob

Bob - I'm a giant believer that national public policy is extremely complicated so we need first and foremost really smart people in Congress.  Second, we need people whose motivation is serving the public and caring about the best interests of the U.S. and for humanity as well and not looking first and foremost at building their personal brande or someone whose only skill is saying everything is wrong or having beliefs that border on crazy.  I simply don't understand how anyone thinks some of these candidates are qualified.

When a conservative Republican in 1982 said, "Communism is a global threat" I felt you could agree or disagree with it, but even if you disagreed with it, you didn't think the person was crazy for thinking it as it was only a difference of opinion.  Now, it's I believe this but the other side believes in global cabal of Satan worshipping pedophiles is nuts.

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 05, 2021, 02:28:21 PM
Tim: Before answering, I amended my original post to make clear I was referring to myself, not you, when I said time to "think outside the box."

I actually wasn't offering a specific solution (until you inadvertently "challenged" me to provide one LOL).  Coming up with stuff like that was one of my "jobs" a while back. 

To answer your question, first, the idea isn't just for mail-in and absentee ballots.  You would take your Voter ID Number with you to the polls and enter it when you vote (whether they use paper ballots or machines).

You would not request a voter ID.  The legislature would, by writing a law, ORDER the Social Security Administration to send every registered SS number holder an additional number, to be known as a Voter ID Number.

You would receive it in the mail, or by Internet if you have an online account with Social Security Administration.

It could be on a separate card (one more thing to lose) or printed on the same card (but that has disadvantages, too.... if you lose one, you lose both!!!).  Hope your new enterprise is going well.

Bob

Bob

This would be money well spent rather then slush fund pet projects by our politicians or flooding cash overseas.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE THIS IDEA! 

You really should pitch it to your representatives!!!

Truly awesome idea!  Solves multitude of issues with this!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 02:32:20 PM
Paul,

Are you seriously comparing the Georgia Republicans' actions to rob minorities of their right to vote, with President Obama and the Democrats getting 10s of millions of Americans healthcare?!?!

Are you telling me that with Republicans you can expect them to try and destroy our democracy and turn it into a dictatorship, but with Democrats, they will get you by making sure you have access to healthcare?!?!

Your argument suggests that the GOP should go the way of the Whig party.  Here is the thing, when a political party like the Republicans (or the Democrats in the past) become unpopular due to their political policies and positions they would adjust and change their positions to make them more acceptable to the American people.    Now you are saying that the Republicans are abusing the power that comes with their elected positions to rob minorities and others of their right to vote, instead of making their policies more popular and acceptable.    Not only is that wrong, but it's also frankly un-American.

Go check out HR1 and tell me that

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 02:32:20 PM
Paul,

Are you seriously comparing the Georgia Republicans' actions to rob minorities of their right to vote, with President Obama and the Democrats getting 10s of millions of Americans healthcare?!?!

Are you telling me that with Republicans you can expect them to try and destroy our democracy and turn it into a dictatorship, but with Democrats, they will get you by making sure you have access to healthcare?!?!

Your argument suggests that the GOP should go the way of the Whig party.  Here is the thing, when a political party like the Republicans (or the Democrats in the past) become unpopular due to their political policies and positions they would adjust and change their positions to make them more acceptable to the American people.    Now you are saying that the Republicans are abusing the power that comes with their elected positions to rob minorities and others of their right to vote, instead of making their policies more popular and acceptable.    Not only is that wrong, but it's also frankly un-American.

You are the one saying that the party in power shouldn

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 02:45:16 PM
Go check out HR1 and tell me that

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 02:45:16 PM
Go check out HR1 and tell me that

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 02:45:44 PM
You are the one saying that the party in power shouldn

Quote from: Philosophers on April 05, 2021, 02:40:43 PM
Bob - I'm a giant believer that national public policy is extremely complicated so we need first and foremost really smart people in Congress.  Second, we need people whose motivation is serving the public and caring about the best interests of the U.S. and for humanity as well and not looking first and foremost at building their personal brande or someone whose only skill is saying everything is wrong or having beliefs that border on crazy.  I simply don't understand how anyone thinks some of these candidates are qualified.

When a conservative Republican in 1982 said, "Communism is a global threat" I felt you could agree or disagree with it, but even if you disagreed with it, you didn't think the person was crazy for thinking it as it was only a difference of opinion.  Now, it's I believe this but the other side believes in global cabal of Satan worshipping pedophiles is nuts.

Phil: Most politicians are only smart about 1 of these 2 things: leaders know how to raise money... followers know how to keep their mouths shut and do what they're told by leaders (so you get unqualified people).

There is a "lunatic fringe" in both political parties.  Sadly, it seems they have a lot of time (and money) on their hands, so politicians will do almost anything to get their grubby paws on all that money. 

Politicians love rile people up about the lunatics in the other party because then they don't have to tell you what they stand FOR (vote for me, not because I'm good/smart, but because the other guy is bad/dumb). 

Bob

As a so called, Irish Catholic who voted for Nixon not JFK, and has most often voted Republican and been right of center in my political sentiment, you can only imagine how betrayed I feel and disgusted I am with today's venal, anti-democratic Republican party.

While having done what may be irreparable damage to our nation's moral character, integrity, and reputation and leadership in the world, one might have hoped that the GOP would now post-Trump have moderated its policy on a number of issues as it recognizes that public opinion is disapproving and trending to the other side. Indeed, Democrats have established a modest but durable electoral majority, holding the House, gaining back the Senate, and winning the Presidency by 7 million votes.

Still, let's not kid ourselves, instead of organizing its coalition around shared policy goals, the GOP continues to emphasize hatred and fear of it political opponents much as they have courted racists, fascists, xenophobes, religious bigots and other venal elements of our society in an  effort to retain power, and make keeping power their highest purpose.

No, it's not Dr. Seuss or

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 02:45:44 PM
You are the one saying that the party in power shouldn

Not going to get into a debate over the law that was passed in Georgia or the topic in general.  But I agree with MLB making this move to avoid the ASG being taken over by the debate for those 3-4 days in July.  Rather than protests outside the stadium, players opting out and discussion about the issue on the broadcast it will be strictly about baseball.  As with the whole National Anthem debate any time these issues pop up these Pro Sports leagues have to do all they can to eliminate the distraction one way or another.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 02:51:45 PM
Here is what HR 1 does.  Please tell me what you oppose and why

Rich: I think it's imporant to know from where you got that summary. THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS that can serve as a replacement for reading the actual bill. In politics (and law) the devil is always in the details.  Bob

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 02:51:45 PM
Here is what HR 1 does.  Please tell me what you oppose and why


Voting rights

Creates new national automatic voter registration that asks voters to opt out rather than opt in, ensuring more people will be signed up to vote. Requires chief state election officials to automatically register eligible unregistered citizens.
Requires each state to put online options for voter registration, correction, cancellation, or designating party affiliation.
Requires at least 15 consecutive days of early voting for federal elections; early voting sites would be open for at least 10 hours per day. The bill also prohibits states from restricting a person

Quote from: Painter on April 05, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
As a so called, Irish Catholic who voted for Nixon not JFK, and has most often voted Republican and been right of center in my political sentiment, you can only imagine how betrayed I feel and disgusted I am with today's venal, anti-democratic Republican party.

While having done what may be irreparable damage to our nation's moral character, integrity, and reputation and leadership in the world, one might have hoped that the GOP would now post-Trump have moderated its policy on a number of issues as it recognizes that public opinion is disapproving and trending to the other side. Indeed, Democrats have established a modest but durable electoral majority, holding the House, gaining back the Senate, and winning the Presidency by 7 million votes.

Still, let's not kid ourselves, instead of organizing its coalition around shared policy goals, the GOP continues to emphasize hatred and fear of it political opponents much as they have courted racists, fascists, xenophobes, religious bigots and other venal elements of our society in an  effort to retain power, and make keeping power their highest purpose.

No, it's not Dr. Seuss or

Quote from: Rambo89 on April 05, 2021, 02:55:57 PM
Not going to get into a debate over the law that was passed in Georgia or the topic in general.  But I agree with MLB making this move to avoid the ASG being taken over by the debate for those 3-4 days in July.  Rather than protests outside the stadium, players opting out and discussion about the issue on the broadcast it will be strictly about baseball.  As with the whole National Anthem debate any time these issues pop up these Pro Sports leagues have to do all they can to eliminate the distraction one way or another.

That

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 05, 2021, 02:55:35 PM
Slugs: That is one of the big questions I always ask myself to be sure I'm not spouting nonsense. Bob

Bob

Your responses are always well measured and a class act!  Anyone to say different is a liar!  I always respect and appreciate your views and comments




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 02:29:11 PM
You my friend are stereotyping. I grew up in poverty. You know nothing about me.  You assume you do.   I

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 05, 2021, 02:52:39 PM
Phil: Most politicians are only smart about 1 of these 2 things: leaders know how to raise money... followers know how to keep their mouths shut and do what they're told by leaders (so you get unqualified people).

There is a "lunatic fringe" in both political parties.  Sadly, it seems they have a lot of time (and money) on their hands, so politicians will do almost anything to get their grubby paws on all that money. 

Politicians love rile people up about the lunatics in the other party because then they don't have to tell you what they stand FOR (vote for me, not because I'm good/smart, but because the other guy is bad/dumb). 

Bob

FYI - I am not a lifelong Dem and have voted more Repub than Dem in my life.  That said, I don't see the similarity in "lunatic fringe" across both parties.  On the Dems side, I disagree vociferously with AOC as I think she's a young millennial who has zero clue about what it takes to be effective in Congress and her only skill to date is saying what's wrong.  I disagree with her and Bernie Sanders but that is a disagreement on policy.  That's a far cry from Marjorie Taylor Greene and her crazy theories or Lauren Bobert and her nonsense.  I am not aware of anyone on the Dems side preaching lasers from space though I could be wrong.  One thing I do believe in which is wrong on both parties is that power corrupts and I think either side can have members who break laws or let their power go to their heads or want to be President. 

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 05, 2021, 03:02:42 PM
Rich: I think it's imporant to know from where you got that summary. THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS that can serve as a replacement for reading the actual bill. In politics (and law) the devil is always in the details.  Bob

It was an article on Vox.  I tried to find as neutral a source as possible

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 05, 2021, 02:26:26 PM
It is my friend and I appreciate you doing so as a gentleman as always.

I do agree there are a lot of things that still need to be done to change this.  Change can

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 02:00:15 PM
But clearly you're not. So not only do you not get to speak for us, you can't even speak hypothetically about what you would or would not do if you were one of us. You are blind to your own privilege.

I don't need you to tell me what I am capable of.

No one asked you to apologize for your success. It was never a topic.

Ignoring something doesn't make it go away. You see it, you address it and you deal with it until it is no longer a problem. My dad has heart problems. Should I tell him, "Daddy, just ignore it and it will go away???"

It's nice to feel that all Americans have equal opportunities for success. It just isn't true.

Here

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 03:37:37 PM
Here

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 03:37:37 PM
Here

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 03:12:16 PM

First of all the document is 706 pages so pardon me if I don

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 05, 2021, 02:28:21 PM
Tim: Before answering, I amended my original post to make clear I was referring to myself, not you, when I said time to "think outside the box."

I actually wasn't offering a specific solution (until you inadvertently "challenged" me to provide one LOL).  Coming up with stuff like that was one of my "jobs" a while back. 

To answer your question, first, the idea isn't just for mail-in and absentee ballots.  You would take your Voter ID Number with you to the polls and enter it when you vote (whether they use paper ballots or machines).

You would not request a voter ID.  The legislature would, by writing a law, ORDER the Social Security Administration to send every registered SS number holder an additional number, to be known as a Voter ID Number.

You would receive it in the mail, or by Internet if you have an online account with Social Security Administration.

It could be on a separate card (one more thing to lose) or printed on the same card (but that has disadvantages, too.... if you lose one, you lose both!!!).  Hope your new enterprise is going well.

Bob

Bob,

You're so full of solutions, when you open your mouth (touch your keyboard), a solution falls out!  :P :P :P

I love that idea! You're like Tony Romo in the Corona beer commercials... always has the right answers!  =D> :ok:

Wow I see more action on this thread than others.
Both sides dug in....football seems more appealing lol

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 04:11:12 PM
Bob,

You're so full of solutions, when you open your mouth (touch your keyboard), a solution falls out!  :P :P :P

I love that idea! You're like Tony Romo in the Corona beer commercials... always has the right answers!  =D> :ok:

Tim: Without your inspiration it may never have been conceived! LOL Seriously, I've thought about it for a while, off and on, trying to find a loophole or bugaboo. If anyone sees a problem, let me know. Bob

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 03:44:48 PM
Unless you are brown or dark-skinned, you have an advantage over me without even speaking a word. And there was nothing in my statement that stereotyped you in any way.

You most certainly did stereotype type me.  You made a judgment on me without knowing anything about me.  You assume I am somehow privileged.  You are wrong.  I had no advantages over you that I didn

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2021, 03:54:53 PM
With all those items in the bill, it comes down to just 3 items.  One is your personal preference, one is a concern, and finally, there was an issue with holding up the voting rights of felons over fine payment.  We could debate some of your issues, but I am having a hard time seeing how your objects support the claim that HR1 is some sort of partisan hatchet job.

Again the document is over 700 pages.  There

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 05, 2021, 04:15:44 PM
Tim: Without your inspiration it may never have been conceived! LOL Seriously, I've thought about it for a while, off and on, trying to find a loophole or bugaboo. If anyone sees a problem, let me know. Bob

GiantRevival raised an opposition to automatic registration in response to one of Rich's posts. I'm with him unless there is some type of safeguard in place to ensure that a deceased person with a SSAN isn't automatically registered to vote. I get that the numbers are probably miniscule but if there was something to ease fears and eliminate excuses against it, the better.

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 04:25:30 PM
You most certainly did stereotype type me.  You made a judgment on me without knowing anything about me.  You assume I am somehow privileged.  You are wrong.  I had no advantages over you that I didn

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 03:52:22 PM
Mad? Far from it. This isn't my first foray in racial and social discussions. I'm far from mad. I don't think I've ever expressed any kind of anger on this board.

Not sure how you got that I'm mad because you think blacks are as capable as whites.

As far as what I'd prefer, it's pretty simple: don't waffle and say just ignore the racism then come back and acknowledge it. Admit that from Day 1 that foreigners came to this country with black people in chains, black people as a whole, have never gotten a fair shake. Once you have acknowledged it, then we can look at the myriad of ways the systems and programs put in place designed to keep black people from being successful have affected our place in society and business and continue to this day.

Yes, there are millions of blacks in the middle and upper middle class, despite those systems. Should have been a lot more.

Slavery was terrible.  But should I apologize for it? Most of my family came here in the early 1900

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 04:38:19 PM
GiantRevival raised an opposition to automatic registration in response to one of Rich's posts. I'm with him unless there is some type of safeguard in place to ensure that a deceased person with a SSAN isn't automatically registered to vote. I get that the numbers are probably miniscule but if there was something to ease fears and eliminate excuses against it, the better.

That

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 04:45:56 PM
I made an assumption based on your own words: "If I was black..."

I thought I made it pretty clear: if you are NOT brown or dark-skinned, then you have an advantage over EVERY person that IS brown or dark-skinned IN AMERICA. That is how this society is, for all intents and purposes. There is bias in skin color. Most times, it works AGAINST minorities.

Speaking of assumptions, who says we wouldn't enjoy each other's company despite the political differences?

That

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 04:38:19 PM
GiantRevival raised an opposition to automatic registration in response to one of Rich's posts. I'm with him unless there is some type of safeguard in place to ensure that a deceased person with a SSAN isn't automatically registered to vote. I get that the numbers are probably miniscule but if there was something to ease fears and eliminate excuses against it, the better.

Tim: I do hear an occasional story about SSA paying benefits to a person who has been dead for many years, but I'm not sure how prevalent the problem is.

You know something, I was going to tell you I would think it over, but by the time I had typed the sentence, an answer came to me (as sometimes happens).

Every dead person has a death certificate issued by a doctor.  There would be a requirement that SSA be notified whenever a death certificate is issued.

Most patients have given a SS number in the process of receiving treatment, so those cases would be easy to report.

As for cases when the health care people don't have the decedent's SS number, they would send any other known personal info (name,address) to the SSA and they would determine if that person is in their records.

Bob

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 04:50:59 PM
That

Quote from: GiantsRevival2 on April 05, 2021, 04:47:20 PM
Slavery was terrible.  But should I apologize for it? Most of my family came here in the early 1900

Quote from: T200 on April 05, 2021, 04:59:25 PM
You keep interjecting something new into the discussion. No one said anything about an apology.

If someone is racist and they hold a position of power in a company or other organization that controls who gets hired, fired or promoted, then it surely has the potential to hurt more than just themselves.

Just because there are millions of "good black people" who work their way up the social chain doesn't absolve a racist system, no more than lottery officials or casino owners can say their systems are for the good of all people just because they have big money winners. Those "good black people" made it despite the system, not because of it.

I know it happens.  And I hate that it happens.  Only problem is it

I'm not going to get involved in this as it has gotten too far for me to chime in now.

What I do want to say, and it has been the reinvolving theme of most of this thread, I believe, Red, Black, Blue, Yellow, whatever, every American should have some sort of photo ID. I don't care how they get it, how it may help anyone with anything. All Americans have a SSN, they should also have some sort of photo ID. In this day and age, that really shouldn't be too much of a problem. AND, not just for voting. Whoever it benefits, it will always benefit that particular person to have that ID.

Quote from: LennG on April 05, 2021, 06:28:22 PM
I'm not going to get involved in this as it has gotten too far for me to chime in now.

What I do want to say, and it has been the reinvolving theme of most of this thread, I believe, Red, Black, Blue, Yellow, whatever, every American should have some sort of photo ID. I don't care how they get it, how it may help anyone with anything. All Americans have a SSN, they should also have some sort of photo ID. In this day and age, that really shouldn't be too much of a problem. AND, not just for voting. Whoever it benefits, it will always benefit that particular person to have that ID.

Good point.  It

Racism whether overt or subtle is insidious.  If a white person

I

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 05, 2021, 04:53:48 PM
Tim: I do hear an occasional story about SSA paying benefits to a person who has been dead for many years, but I'm not sure how prevalent the problem is.

You know something, I was going to tell you I would think it over, but by the time I had typed the sentence, an answer came to me (as sometimes happens).

Every dead person has a death certificate issued by a doctor.  There would be a requirement that SSA be notified whenever a death certificate is issued.

Most patients have given a SS number in the process of receiving treatment, so those cases would be easy to report.

As for cases when the health care people don't have the decedent's SS number, they would send any other known personal info (name,address) to the SSA and they would determine if that person is in their records.

Bob

Bob,

I would certainly be in favor of that. Detractors should keep in mind that this is just for voter registration of a unique ID number, nothing more or less. Even in rare situations where a deceased person has a voter ID number, it doesn't mean that that number would always be used to vote in every election.

Quote from: T200 on April 06, 2021, 08:13:25 AM
Bob,

I would certainly be in favor of that. Detractors should keep in mind that this is just for voter registration of a unique ID number, nothing more or less. Even in rare situations where a deceased person has a voter ID number, it doesn't mean that that number would always be used to vote in every election.

We

Quote from: Ed Vette on April 06, 2021, 08:19:39 AM
We

Quote from: T200 on April 06, 2021, 08:21:09 AM
Right! And we'll be tracked by the 5G cell towers!  =)) =)) =))

Don

Quote from: Ed Vette on April 06, 2021, 08:22:53 AM
Don

Quote from: T200 on April 06, 2021, 08:13:25 AM
Bob,

I would certainly be in favor of that. Detractors should keep in mind that this is just for voter registration of a unique ID number, nothing more or less. Even in rare situations where a deceased person has a voter ID number, it doesn't mean that that number would always be used to vote in every election.

Tim: Stopping dead people from voting would be much easier with a voter ID of the type I suggested, when combined with a requirement that doctors who sign death certificates forward the decedent's social security number to the Social Security Administration on a simple form.  Then the SSA would mark the person deceased in their records.  The system won't automatically clear out dead people who are voting now, but none of the people who die after the law is enacted will ever be able to vote, because the Voter ID Number of everyone who votes from now on will be run through the SSA's records to confirm that they are a real person who SSA believes to be living.  That was a long-winded explanation, but I think it's readable. LOL

Quote from: T200 on April 06, 2021, 08:27:39 AM
True. Most people never let their cell phones leave their side.

Back to the original topic, I don't follow baseball but I'm curious to know how the baseball community feels about the decision overall. Anyone on baseball forums that care to chime in?

I read they are now moving the game to Colorado. 

Higher taxes then Ga which will affect the players and the voting laws in Ga are actually better/more flexible then the voting laws in Colorado.  Now this is what I read I haven

Quote from: T200 on April 06, 2021, 08:21:09 AM
Right! And we'll be tracked by the 5G cell towers!  =)) =)) =))

Tim: Not me.  I don't have a cell phone.   :o :o :o

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 06, 2021, 08:38:18 AM
Tim: Not me.  I don't have a cell phone.   :o :o :o

Congratulations! Agents will be knocking on your door momentarily with you new chip implant!  :P =))

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 06, 2021, 08:30:12 AM
Tim: Stopping dead people from voting would be much easier with a voter ID of the type I suggested, when combined with a requirement that doctors who sign death certificates forward the decedent's social security number to the Social Security Administration on a simple form.  Then the SSA would mark the person deceased in their records.  The system won't automatically clear out dead people who are voting now, but none of the people who die after the law is enacted will ever be able to vote, because the Voter ID Number of everyone who votes from now on will be run through the SSA's records to confirm that they are a real person who SSA believes to be living.  That was a long-winded explanation, but I think it's readable. LOL

It shouldn't be too hard to build that feature in. I think it would be a key factor and feature to have in the system.

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 06, 2021, 08:34:56 AM
I read they are now moving the game to Colorado. 

Higher taxes then Ga which will affect the players and the voting laws in Ga are actually better/more flexible then the voting laws in Colorado.  Now this is what I read I haven

Quote from: T200 on April 06, 2021, 08:43:45 AM
It shouldn't be too hard to build that feature in. I think it would be a key factor and feature to have in the system.

Tim: You would think that statement MUST be true, but SSA has been working on the problem of eliminating dead people since the agency was created, and they still have an occasional case where they've been sending checks to a person for many years and someone has been cashing them.  Of course there are severe criminal penalties already in the law for people who do that, and there is already a requirement for relatives of a person who dies to report to SSA whenever a social security recipient dies, but sometimes a person has no relatives (or other situations exist that you can conjure up yourself) and those people fall through the cracks.

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 06, 2021, 08:50:34 AM
Tim: You would think that statement MUST be true, but SSA has been working on the problem of eliminating dead people since the agency was created, and they since have an occasional case where they've been sending checks to a person for many years and someone has been cashing them.  Of course there are severe criminal penalties already in the law for people who do that, and there is already a requirement for relatives of a person who dies to report to SSA whenever a social security recipient dies, but sometimes a person has no relatives (or other situations exist that you can conjure up yourself) and those people fall through the cracks.

There are several breakdowns in the system. If someone moves and they register to vote in another State, the system doesn't remove the previous registration as it's not universally speaking to each other. I don't know if a person voted in two different States if that would even be picked up. Death confirmations should automatically delete the registration as they should a Social Security Account but it doesn't as it has to be reported by the executor/trix of the estate.

I believe every citizen should be automatically registered and have a Government issued picture
ID Card that can serve multiple purposes for Driver license endorsement, Voter ID etc. There should be no charge if it's just for Travel, Vaccine and Voter ID but it should be updated for photo on at least a ten year period.

The cyber security eventually will become secure as technology evolves and people will be able to vote online and at multiple sites with their bar coded ID. There is a need to have voting laws universal across the States. 

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 06, 2021, 08:34:56 AM
I read they are now moving the game to Colorado. 

Higher taxes then Ga which will affect the players and the voting laws in Ga are actually better/more flexible then the voting laws in Colorado.  Now this is what I read I haven

Quote from: Ed Vette on April 06, 2021, 09:10:23 AM
There are several breakdowns in the system. If someone moves and they register to vote in another State, the system doesn't remove the previous registration as it's not universally speaking to each other. I don't know if a person voted in two different States if that would even be picked up. Death confirmations should automatically delete the registration as they should a Social Security Account but it doesn't as it has to be reported by the executor/trix of the estate.

I believe every citizen should be automatically registered and have a Government issued picture
ID Card that can serve multiple purposes for Driver license endorsement, Voter ID etc. There should be no charge if it's just for Travel, Vaccine and Voter ID but it should be updated for photo on at least a ten year period.

The cyber security eventually will become secure as technology evolves and people will be able to vote online and at multiple sites with their bar coded ID. There is a need to have voting laws universal across the States.

Ed: I think having the SSA be in charge of Voter ID numbers solves almost all of the problems you noted (and others) simultaneously. The legislature should pass a law ordering SSA to assign everyone who has a social security number a second number to be used for voting.  Then, when people change locations the number goes with them.  They can register to vote in multiple states if they meet state law requirements (i.e., if they are a resident) but they can only use the Voter ID number once, because each number would be unique, nation-wide and computers would track which numbers were used. Bob

Quote from: Ed Vette on April 06, 2021, 09:10:23 AM
There are several breakdowns in the system. If someone moves and they register to vote in another State, the system doesn't remove the previous registration as it's not universally speaking to each other. I don't know if a person voted in two different States if that would even be picked up. Death confirmations should automatically delete the registration as they should a Social Security Account but it doesn't as it has to be reported by the executor/trix of the estate.

I believe every citizen should be automatically registered and have a Government issued picture
ID Card that can serve multiple purposes for Driver license endorsement, Voter ID etc. There should be no charge if it's just for Travel, Vaccine and Voter ID but it should be updated for photo on at least a ten year period.

The cyber security eventually will become secure as technology evolves and people will be able to vote online and at multiple sites with their bar coded ID. There is a need to have voting laws universal across the States.

Can also use this as a universal card for conceal carry and firearm purchase.  The NRA would never sign off on it as a fear of mass registry etc etc but as a gun owner who believes in background checks etc this could also serve to facilitate that as well.

I will say I worry about to much power in Government hands and one number or way to track and monitor but let

Quote from: Ed Vette on April 06, 2021, 09:10:23 AM
There are several breakdowns in the system. If someone moves and they register to vote in another State, the system doesn't remove the previous registration as it's not universally speaking to each other. I don't know if a person voted in two different States if that would even be picked up. Death confirmations should automatically delete the registration as they should a Social Security Account but it doesn't as it has to be reported by the executor/trix of the estate.

I believe every citizen should be automatically registered and have a Government issued picture
ID Card that can serve multiple purposes for Driver license endorsement, Voter ID etc. There should be no charge if it's just for Travel, Vaccine and Voter ID but it should be updated for photo on at least a ten year period.

The cyber security eventually will become secure as technology evolves and people will be able to vote online and at multiple sites with their bar coded ID. There is a need to have voting laws universal across the States.

I often wondered how many snowbirds with homes in the north and the south vote twice.  It certainly would be easy enough to do and I am unaware of any mechanism that prevents them from voting in person in one state and absentee in the other.

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 06, 2021, 08:34:56 AM
I read they are now moving the game to Colorado. 

Higher taxes then Ga which will affect the players and the voting laws in Ga are actually better/more flexible then the voting laws in Colorado.  Now this is what I read I haven

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 06, 2021, 09:32:02 AM
Can also use this as a universal card for conceal carry and firearm purchase.  The NRA would never sign off on it as a fear of mass registry etc etc but as a gun owner who believes in background checks etc this could also serve to facilitate that as well.

I will say I worry about to much power in Government hands and one number or way to track and monitor but let

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 06, 2021, 09:44:14 AM
I agree in principle, however the current outrage is all about Georgia. Fairly or unfairly, most people are not interested in comparisons between Georgia's laws and other states' laws. The focus is entirely on the decision Georgia made and what the perceived motivation was for this decision. Whether or not they're still in fact less stringent than some other states is not really moving the needle for people. So even if their landing spot for this game has more restrictive laws, the criticism of that will fall on deaf ears for the mainstream media and all those who are applauding MLB's decision. This is entirely about Georgia right now.

You really want to look at the direction of any given state's laws, rather than comparing them.   You want to see if a state is making it easier or harder for people to vote.   One thing with Covid, we saw that many more people were willing to cast ballots if they didn't have to stand on line for hours to do so.   The goal should be to have as many Americans participate in our voting process, not try and make it less by creating laws that make voting more restrictive.

Comparing states side by side to see if they are doing the right thing is like comparing the 40 times of WRs and NTs

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 06, 2021, 09:32:02 AM
Can also use this as a universal card for conceal carry and firearm purchase.  The NRA would never sign off on it as a fear of mass registry etc etc but as a gun owner who believes in background checks etc this could also serve to facilitate that as well.

I will say I worry about to much power in Government hands and one number or way to track and monitor but let

Quote from: Ed Vette on April 06, 2021, 09:50:01 AM
I also think Gun background check laws should be universal across the US. As you know, NJ is among the strictest in the nation and we had to get not only a background check but fingerprinted and we have to apply for a permit to purchase in a 90 day window. My brother just goes to the store, they do a check and he walks away with his new toy. Other states have open carry or concealed. I like the idea of one ID with the ability to add applications like we do adding a motorcycle endorsement to our license.

I agree!  Even as a gun owner and strong believer in the 2A I want those who can

MLB is moving the All Star game to Colorado. Colorado has 2 less early voting days than Georgia. MLB Commissioner Manfred has not said if he will give up his membership to Augusta National, also in Georgia. The voting odds are against it.

Quote from: Ed Vette on April 06, 2021, 09:50:01 AM
I also think Gun background check laws should be universal across the US. As you know, NJ is among the strictest in the nation and we had to get not only a background check but fingerprinted and we have to apply for a permit to purchase in a 90 day window. My brother just goes to the store, they do a check and he walks away with his new toy. Other states have open carry or concealed. I like the idea of one ID with the ability to add applications like we do adding a motorcycle endorsement to our license.

That should certainly be possible in the digital age.

My brother, an ex-marine had about a 6 month period to be able to carry. 

When I lived in Maine, if I wanted to buy a gun to keep in the house, I could have bought if from a friend or a classified ad without a background check.  Only gun dealers in Maine have to do background checks (If I remember correct). 

I have to admit, I liked that when I bough a pistol here in PA, it was a pretty simple process with the background check. 

Quote from: FL GMAN on April 06, 2021, 10:38:27 AM
MLB is moving the All Star game to Colorado. Colorado has 2 less early voting days than Georgia. MLB Commissioner Manfred has not said if he will give up his membership to Augusta National, also in Georgia. The voting odds are against it.

This one is going to have to be detail explained to me. They can do whatever it is they want as far as I'm concerned as it's their gig but I'm not seeing the justification moving it to a state that requires a photo ID to vote in person. Atlanta losing 100mm will have an adverse effect on the poor in that State where the per capita income is 14K less.

Honestly asking the conservatives here- would a national or federal registration system for voting inspire more or less trust in elections in today's political climate?  My gut tells me there are too many conspiracy theorists out there that would make this idea DOA.

I'm thinking most of the conservatives here are of the same cloth as actual Republicans- reasonable folks with actual policy positions. Not the new Rs who are unfortunately dominating the party at the moment. As a former R myself I just want to say I appreciate the conversation. :)

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Quote from: PSUBeirut on April 06, 2021, 11:02:12 AM
Honestly asking the conservatives here- would a national or federal registration system for voting inspire more or less trust in elections in today's political climate?  My gut tells me there are too many conspiracy theorists out there that would make this idea DOA.

I'm thinking most of the conservatives here are of the same cloth as actual Republicans- reasonable folks with actual policy positions. Not the new Rs who are unfortunately dominating the party at the moment. As a former R myself I just want to say I appreciate the conversation. :)

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Why would it be DOA? I'm a former Republican too now Independent although I have never voted down a party line.

Quote from: Ed Vette on April 06, 2021, 11:08:55 AM
Why would it be DOA? I'm a former Republican too now Independent although I have never voted down a party line.

I do not believe they would trust a national registration system because in general today's Right simply does not trust the actions of a government.  They'll think the Government will use this information in some insidious way against them.  It's the same reason, they didn't trust a national databank for individual healthcare information so all the patients have their medical history/info stored in one vast place that can be accessed by doctors when needed to evaluate a patient.  Think about how much easier that would be if you go to one physicial specialist not affiliated with say the doctor's you normally go to so he has no ability to see past X rays, MRIs, histories of physicals, etc.  All he can do is ask you questions unless you brought all that info which 99% of patients don't personally have.

Quote from: Philosophers on April 06, 2021, 11:43:39 AM
I do not believe they would trust a national registration system because in general today's Right simply does not trust the actions of a government.  They'll think the Government will use this information in some insidious way against them.  It's the same reason, they didn't trust a national databank for individual healthcare information so all the patients have their medical history/info stored in one vast place that can be accessed by doctors when needed to evaluate a patient.  Think about how much easier that would be if you go to one physicial specialist not affiliated with say the doctor's you normally go to so he has no ability to see past X rays, MRIs, histories of physicals, etc.  All he can do is ask you questions unless you brought all that info which 99% of patients don't personally have.

Ok I can understand that thinking.


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Quote from: Ed Vette on April 06, 2021, 12:02:10 PM
Ok I can understand that thinking.


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At the end of the day, it's about trust and many in today's Right do not trust.  The Right which is predominantly white middle/upper middle class think for example that they will lose out in their way of life to immigrants.  It is not a new theme.  The Capital Riots are not new to American History.  In the 1840s, native Protestants rioted against Irish Catholic immigrants.  In the early 1900s, the KKK rioted against Italian Catholics.  I was in a Starbucks in Savannah, Georgia one day a few years ago.  Two young adults, probably in their early 20s (man and woman) came in to get a cup of coffee and each was carrying a pistol strapped to their waist.  I went up to them and asked them why they felt the need to wear those guns inside the Starbucks.  They told me that they didn't trust if there was some sort of crime that they would be protected by the police or anyone so they were taking matters into their own hands.  That example perfectly describes the lack of trust among a huge segment of the population.  It's a genuine paranoia but it's a real problem.  Same thing with not trusting U.S. Government "databases."  They simply don't trust.   

Quote from: Philosophers on April 06, 2021, 11:43:39 AM
I do not believe they would trust a national registration system because in general today's Right simply does not trust the actions of a government.  They'll think the Government will use this information in some insidious way against them.  It's the same reason, they didn't trust a national databank for individual healthcare information so all the patients have their medical history/info stored in one vast place that can be accessed by doctors when needed to evaluate a patient.  Think about how much easier that would be if you go to one physicial specialist not affiliated with say the doctor's you normally go to so he has no ability to see past X rays, MRIs, histories of physicals, etc.  All he can do is ask you questions unless you brought all that info which 99% of patients don't personally have.

Phil: I don't think assigning each person registered with Social Security Administration a separate Voter ID number would have any of the problems you just outlined.  If you think of one, write back. 

Such numbers would be as "confidential" as the Social Security number each person already has.... one per person.... i.e., one man, one vote.

Knowing a person's Voter ID number would not have the privacy ramifications as snooping into a person's health records.  This, I think, is what people don't like about a national health database.

Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 06, 2021, 12:48:35 PM
Phil: I don't think assigning each person registered with Social Security Administration a separate Voter ID number would have any of the problems you just outlined.  If you think of one, write back. 

Such numbers would be as "confidential" as the Social Security number each person already has.... one per person.... i.e., one man, one vote.

Knowing a person's Voter ID number would not have the privacy ramifications as snooping into a person's health records.  This, I think, is what people don't like about a national health database.

Bob

I agree 100% with you about that Bob, but that should also apply to national registration of medical info.  You can't trust one but not trust the other.  We have to trust it will remain confidential and not be used harmfully against them.   

Quote from: Philosophers on April 06, 2021, 12:54:27 PM
I agree 100% with you about that Bob, but that should also apply to national registration of medical info.  You can't trust one but not trust the other.  We have to trust it will remain confidential and not be used harmfully against them.   

Phil: I know, but the worst that can happen with a voter ID is someone votes instead of you. 

One example of bad that can happen if someone hacks into a national health database is this: I announce I'm running for President. You hack into my records and discover that I had a certain type of hepatitis.

You put an ad on the TV stating that I'm a slime-bucket who probably used a dirty needle injecting illegal drugs and got hepatitis.  Now I have to explain away your accusation, regardless of whether it's true or false.

Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 06, 2021, 01:11:55 PM
Phil: I know, but the worst that can happen with a voter ID is someone votes instead of you. 

One example of bad that can happen if someone hacks into a national health database is this: I announce I'm running for President. You hack into my records and discover that I had a certain type of hepatitis.

You put an ad on the TV stating that I'm a slime-bucket who probably used a dirty needle injecting illegal drugs and got hepatitis.  Now I have to explain away your accusation, regardless of whether it's true or false.

Bob

Someone can hack into a voter registration system and steal confidential personal info about a person.  Again, in your example, you have to trust that the system will prevail and that in the end it makes the lives of everyone better.  Yoru example is pretty extreme and if you are worried about extremes, then I think it crosses over to the unrealistic and becomes paranoia instead.  Do you know how much redundant medical costs there are because a doctor say in an Urgent Care examines you and takes an X ray and says you may have a crack in a bone in say your elbow joint, then you go to a major medical center like the Cleveland Clinic to meet with an orthopedic specialist and he does not have your X ray so he has to take another one. 

120 pieces of legislation in 43 States related to ballot and voter eligibility all introduced by Republicans following Trump's defeat and the purple bruise they suffered in the Red State of Georgia, and not at any time before. That also is despite the fact that the most thorough post-election audits ever by State and Federal agencies and private entities concluded that there was no meaningful voter fraud in the past election.

While it should be obvious to any honest, clear thinking person that, having the motive, the GOP is pursuing the opportunity to make it harder for poorer people and minority communities to vote. What also is obvious is that there are those who recognize the fact but can't accept it and so must embrace a web of conspiracies. if they must, it's their sad problem, but they shouldn't expect the rest of us to walk into it.

The U.S. is becoming increasingly browner in terms of ethnic makeup and today

Quote from: PSUBeirut on April 06, 2021, 11:02:12 AM
Honestly asking the conservatives here- would a national or federal registration system for voting inspire more or less trust in elections in today's political climate?  My gut tells me there are too many conspiracy theorists out there that would make this idea DOA.

I'm thinking most of the conservatives here are of the same cloth as actual Republicans- reasonable folks with actual policy positions. Not the new Rs who are unfortunately dominating the party at the moment. As a former R myself I just want to say I appreciate the conversation. :)

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

PSU

Part of me is ok with it and much like now I can get calls texts emails surf the web and do everything on my phone a one stop shop ID makes sense.

What worries me is how much of that info can get out with hacking and let

PETER DOOCY: Is the WH concerned MLB is moving their All Star Game to Colorado, where voting rules are very similar to Georgia?

PSAKI: Let me refute that. CO has same-day registration, universal mail voting... it's important to remember the context. The GA bill is built on a lie

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 06, 2021, 01:54:13 PM
PETER DOOCY: Is the WH concerned MLB is moving their All Star Game to Colorado, where voting rules are very similar to Georgia?

PSAKI: Let me refute that. CO has same-day registration, universal mail voting... it's important to remember the context. The GA bill is built on a lie

I

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on April 06, 2021, 02:04:34 PM
I

Quote from: Painter on April 06, 2021, 01:47:51 PM
120 pieces of legislation in 43 States related to ballot and voter eligibility all introduced by Republicans following Trump's defeat and the purple bruise they suffered in the Red State of Georgia, and not at any time before. That also is despite the fact that the most thorough post-election audits ever by State and Federal agencies and private entities concluded that there was no meaningful voter fraud in past election.

While it should be obvious to any honest, clear thinking person that, having the motive, the GOP is pursuing the opportunity to make it harder for poorer people and minority communities to vote. What also is obvious is that there are those recognize the fact but can't accept it and so must embrace a web of conspiracies. if they must, it's their sad problem, but they shouldn't expect the rest of us to walk into it.

During the 2016 campaign Trump said there was massive voter fraud and that the election was rigged.  After that election the "Voter Integrity Committee" was assembled and found an extremely small amount of isolated issues and the committee was quietly disbanded.  Somehow, at that point, even though the President himself had called the election rigged, there was none of this legislation. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 06, 2021, 02:14:33 PM
you have been pushing an apparently incorrect claim that CO has worse voter laws than Georgia based only on the number of early voter days.  How do you answer these points about universal mail-in voting and same-day registration?


Edit to add:  She got back to you


"Let me just refute the first point that you made," she replied. "Colorado allows you to register on election day. Colorado has voting by mail, where they send to a 100% of people in the state who are eligible applications to vote by mail. Ninety-four percent of people in Colorado voted by mail in the 2020 election.

They also allow for a range of materials to provide for the limited number of people who vote on election day," Psaki continued. "I think it's important to remember the context here of the Georgia legislation is built on a lie. There was no widespread fraud in the 2020 election. Georgia's top Republican election officials have acknowledged that repeatedly in interviews."

She added: "What there was, however, was record-setting turnout, especially by voters of color... What we're seeing here for politicians who didn't like the outcome, they're not changing their policies to win more votes, they're changing the rules to exclude more voters. And we certainly see the circumstances as different."

Pushing i stated I read it and didn

Quote from: uconnjack8 on April 06, 2021, 02:28:21 PM
During the 2016 campaign Trump said there was massive voter fraud and that the election was rigged.  After that election the "Voter Integrity Committee" was assembled and found an extremely small amount of isolated issues and the committee was quietly disbanded.  Somehow, at that point, even though the President himself had called the election rigged, there was none of this legislation.

Of course not. Trump won the election and the GOP controlled both the Senate and the House so it had no pressing motive at the time. They simply went about catering to the interests of big Corporations and the wealthiest individuals among us in advancement of their strategy of converting our Democracy to a Plutocracy. But when they lost the House in the mid-term, we began to see it pandering more and more to racists, xenophobes, religious bigots, and delusional frightened white men.

And then, when Psychobaby lost the recent election and the GOP lost its Senate majority as a result of what happened in Georgia, and so it was gob-smacked by reality's early arrival, they chose a desperate Flail Mary tactic. Obviously, that should be a matter of concern to us all. Moreover, given the irrefutable facts of the matter, it is not just of concern but quite sad to encounter those who are unwilling or unable to accept the truth at the expense of their own credibility, decency, and self-respect. 

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/conservative-clergy-of-color-call-out-biden-and-abrams-for-lies-about-georgia-election-integrity-act-of-2021-301266303.html

Now I see Michigan republicans in the statehouse want to change their voting laws? How come we don't see republicans in, say, Alabama...or Oklahoma...or Utah...rushing to change their voting laws? Funny how it is. You lose, you have to change the rules of the game. At least that's what the Republicans are doing. But they are losing the game anyway. It's a lost cause, really, for them.

Quote from: katkavage on April 14, 2021, 12:00:31 PM
Now I see Michigan republicans in the statehouse want to change their voting laws? How come we don't see republicans in, say, Alabama...or Oklahoma...or Utah...rushing to change their voting laws? Funny how it is. You lose, you have to change the rules of the game. At least that's what the Republicans are doing. But they are losing the game anyway. It's a lost cause, really, for them.

kat: That is one way to look at it.  Another is to ask why the Democrats (in the last election) changed the laws (or rules and regulations, etc.) in PA, MI, WI, etc., but didn't do so in NY, CA, IL, etc. 

There are two sides to every political coin. I don't mind (AT ALL) a person who sees both sides and THEN makes his or her choice. 

That is a person's right as an American citizen, so I respect whatever choice they make after considering the arguments of the competing parties.

Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 14, 2021, 12:05:48 PM
kat: That is one way to look at it.  Another is to ask why the Democrats (in the last election) changed the laws (or rules and regulations, etc.) in PA, MI, WI, etc., but didn't do so in NY, CA, IL, etc. 

There are two sides to every political coin. I don't mind (AT ALL) a person who sees both sides and THEN makes his or her choice. 

That is a person's right as an American citizen, so I respect whatever choice they make after considering the arguments of the competing parties.

Bob

Voting did change in NJ. Mail in and Drop Off had strict rules governing how someone could do this. It didn't make it harder to vote though. Anytime laws make it harder for a segment of the population to vote to create long lines in certain neighborhoods where certain people live, then that's bad. As I mentioned to you before, I'm ok with Government issued ID cards free to every citizen and every citizen should automatically be registered to vote the day they are age eligible. 

Quote from: Ed Vette on April 14, 2021, 01:21:52 PM
Voting did change in NJ. Mail in and Drop Off had strict rules governing how someone could do this. It didn't make it harder to vote though. Anytime laws make it harder for a segment of the population to vote to create long lines in certain neighborhoods where certain people live, then that's bad. As I mentioned to you before, I'm ok with Government issued ID cards free to every citizen and every citizen should automatically be registered to vote the day they are age eligible.

Ed: I had meant to ask you back then but forgot: would you theoretically favor/oppose/don't care a law that REQUIRED people to register to vote (with NO requirement to actually vote)?  Bob

(null)
Not sure I understand. Require them to register? I support automatic registration at age 18. Instead require them to register but not mandatory to vote? How can making people vote mandatory be enforced?


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Quote from: Ed Vette on April 14, 2021, 02:21:34 PM
Not sure I understand. Require them to register? I support automatic registration at age 18. Instead require them to register but not mandatory to vote? How can making people vote mandatory be enforced?

Ed: I'll restate my question. I believe automatic registration is fraught with difficulties. I'm asking if you would support a law that requires a person who attains Federal voting age to register to vote (like the requirement to register for the draft). I included the other part of my post to emphasize that (1) I'm not asking whether people should be required to vote; and (2) I personally believe that it is not constitutional to require registered voters to vote, because the decision not to vote (even if you are required to register) is a decision that should be respected and not interfered with. I hope I clarified what I'm asking.  Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 12, 2021, 04:23:26 PM
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/conservative-clergy-of-color-call-out-biden-and-abrams-for-lies-about-georgia-election-integrity-act-of-2021-301266303.html

Who funds the Conservative Clergy of Color?

How many members does it have?

What qualifies them as subject matter experts?

How do we know they are telling the truth?

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 14, 2021, 03:17:35 PM
Who funds the Conservative Clergy of Color?

How many members does it have?

What qualifies them as subject matter experts?

How do we know they are telling the truth?

Rich: I'll research that and answer when you answer the same questions concerning Black Lives Matter and Antifa.  Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 14, 2021, 03:31:20 PM
Rich: I'll research that and answer when you answer the same questions concerning Black Lives Matter and Antifa.  Bob

Bob,

Have I posted propaganda from BLM or Antifa?  Your evasiveness is telling (or is it damning).   In my opinion, the fact that the right constantly needs to employ dishonest tactics to support their positions speaks to the fundamental flaws of their positions.  Good positions don't need trickery or sleight of hand to garner support

(null)
I wouldn

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 14, 2021, 04:03:10 PM
Bob,

Have I posted propaganda from BLM or Antifa?  Your evasiveness is telling (or is it damning).   In my opinion, the fact that the right constantly needs to employ dishonest tactics to support their positions speaks to the fundamental flaws of their positions.  Good positions don't need trickery or sleight of hand to garner support

Rich: I have not posted any propaganda from any source at any time.  There is no dishonesty involved. It's a question of whose version of the facts you accept.  You have no problem accepting AS FACTS the Democrat analysis of the Georgia voter bill, not all of which is correct, but rather question the facts, correctness and honesty of groups who lean toward the Republican analysis of the bill.  My note mentioning BLM and Antifa was intended only to make a point, not because of anything you posted.  Bob

Quote from: Ed Vette on April 14, 2021, 04:04:14 PM
(null)
I wouldn

https://religionunplugged.com/news/2020/9/26/conservative-clergy-respond-black-lives-matter-alters-controversial-manifest-color

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 14, 2021, 04:17:04 PM
Rich: I have not posted any propaganda from any source at any time.  There is no dishonesty involved. It's a question of whose version of the facts you accept.  You have no problem accepting AS FACTS the Democrat analysis of the Georgia voter bill, not all of which is correct, but rather question the facts, correctness and honesty of groups who lean toward the Republican analysis of the bill.  My note mentioning BLM and Antifa was intended only to make a point, not because of anything you posted.  Bob

Who funds the Conservative Clergy of Color?

How many members does it have?

What qualifies them as subject matter experts?

How do we know they are telling the truth?

Rather than just reading and considering the links I posted, you persist in an attempt to impugn the character and motives of people who are merely expressing a political opinion.

Who funds the Conservative Clergy of Color?
Donors who believe ALL political views, peacefully expressed, deserve to be heard (the same donors who've grown tired of "cancel culture" which is a modern-day equivalent of old-fashioned book-burning).
How many members does it have?
At least enough to set up a website and accept donations (query: how many members does a group need before we should "allow" their political viewpoints to be heard?).
What qualifies them as subject matter experts?
The only expertise required to state a political view is citizenship (the same citizenship that qualifies a person to vote). If there are factual errors due to lack of knowledge, dissenters will and should expose them.
How do we know they are telling the truth?
The same way we know if any other person is telling the truth.

And now for some questions of my own:

Why do you seek to denigrate this group by questioning its funding, size, background, expertise, honesty and sincerity? 
It couldn't be because you are unable to respond to their views in a reasoned manner, could it?
Don't kill the messengers.  What about THE MESSAGE?

Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 14, 2021, 10:45:08 PM
Rather than just reading and considering the links I posted, you persist in an attempt to impugn the character and motives of people who are merely expressing a political opinion.

Who funds the Conservative Clergy of Color?
Donors who believe ALL political views, peacefully expressed, deserve to be heard (the same donors who've grown tired of "cancel culture" which is a modern-day equivalent of old-fashioned book-burning).
How many members does it have?
At least enough to set up a website and accept donations (query: how many members does a group need before we should "allow" their political viewpoints to be heard?).
What qualifies them as subject matter experts?
The only expertise required to state a political view is citizenship (the same citizenship that qualifies a person to vote). If there are factual errors due to lack of knowledge, dissenters will and should expose them.
How do we know they are telling the truth?
The same way we know if any other person is telling the truth.

And now for some questions of my own:

Why do you seek to denigrate this group by questioning its funding, size, background, expertise, honesty and sincerity? 
It couldn't be because you are unable to respond to their views in a reasoned manner, could it?
Don't kill the messengers.  What about THE MESSAGE?

Bob

People here are more than capable of expressing and forming their own opinions.  You haven't answered what would be standard questions of any "expert witness" in a courtroom.   Yet if I challenge what made that article so important and worthy of being posted on this discussion you come up empty and accuse me of impugning the character of people who by my research are nothing more than right-wing propagandists whose funding is secret and expertise, qualifications, or even numbers are unknown. 

I appreciate the subtext of this classic right-wing/Republican tactic.    It's hauled out every time Republicans harm African Americans.   They use it when they rob them of their right to vote.  They use it when they support police officers who murder unarmed African Americans.     The content, and it's a flawed one at best, is that if they can find an African American for whatever reason agrees with them, then that is all the proof they need to say they are not racist or uncaring for the plight of minorities. 

As I said, the right and Republicans have unpopular and badly flawed opinions many of them being outright unAmerican (like robbing people of their right to vote or trying to overthrow an election and by extension our government).     The problem is the GOP has gone so extreme in their views and is so unpopular that the only way to stay in power it to keep large portions of the population from voting and rigging the system so that even when the people speak the GOP ignores them and seizes power anyway.   

This is a rather unique happening in our nation's history and it is no doubt aided by the right-wing propaganda apparatus that former Republican House Speaker John Banner spoke of.   In the past when a political party strayed and became unpopular they would do soul searching and adjust their policies to be more in line with what Americans want.   Now we are witnessing a party attempting to destroy our institutions of democracy so that they can continue to rule even then it's against everything the American people want.

If you think I am being hyperbolic (and I wish to God I was) look forward to the near-universal GOP opposition to bills in Congress that are very popular with the American people.  From voting rights to stimulus, to infrastructure and gun safety measures, the American people all want that, but the GOP are 100% opposed.    So much for a government for the people, by the people, and of the people.

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 14, 2021, 12:05:48 PM
kat: That is one way to look at it.  Another is to ask why the Democrats (in the last election) changed the laws (or rules and regulations, etc.) in PA, MI, WI, etc., but didn't do so in NY, CA, IL, etc. 

There are two sides to every political coin. I don't mind (AT ALL) a person who sees both sides and THEN makes his or her choice. 

That is a person's right as an American citizen, so I respect whatever choice they make after considering the arguments of the competing parties.

Bob

All that is true in terms of our choices. But the easier it is to get more people to vote is always a very good thing for democracy. Making it harder for whatever clerical reason is not good for democracy.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 15, 2021, 10:22:53 AM
People here are more than capable of expressing and forming their own opinions.

Rich: See the following link to yet another story dissenting from what IMO is the majority viewpoint on this site concerning the GA election law:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2021/04/16/why_we_black_leaders_support_voter_id_laws_145598.html

Below is an explanation of why I persist in keeping this thread alive:  I believe it is necessary to constantly monitor both sides of every political issue (especially in national politics), because both sides exaggerate, both sides focus on only the most extreme viewpoints of the other side, and both sides can IMO rightly be called "liars" (or at least extremely deceptive.... you have to parse every last word out of the mouths of these people, on both sides, to discern the meaning and value, if any, of their public statements). 

For this reason, it is a great waste of time to listen to opinion shows of the type presented on MSNBC, Fox News, CNN, OAN, and the like.  But more insidious than the clearly biased, single-minded, and ratings-focused programs are the supposedly "regular" news shows, not only on the aforementioned networks, but on outlets we used to depend on (before you were born LOL) for a fair and accurate representation of the events of the day and a "centralized" evaluation of the views of the majority of Americans.  These days, news directors at even the least nonsensical TV networks, newspapers and Internet sites - all of them - daily make choices concerning which stories to emphasize, which stories to bury and which to ignore. 

The atmosphere these days makes it very difficult for people who want to make up their own minds about issues after hearing voices from both sides present their views.
Where you live, it is necessary to "go the extra mile" to read, hear, or see the side of the story I hear every day.
And where I live, it is necessary to "go the extra mile" to hear, hear, or see the side of the story that you hear every day.
And so I persist.

Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 18, 2021, 10:29:22 AM
Rich: See the following link to yet another story dissenting from what IMO is the majority viewpoint on this site concerning the GA election law:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2021/04/16/why_we_black_leaders_support_voter_id_laws_145598.html

Below is an explanation of why I persist in keeping this thread alive:  I believe it is necessary to constantly monitor both sides of every political issue (especially in national politics), because both sides exaggerate, both sides focus on only the most extreme viewpoints of the other side, and both sides can IMO rightly be called "liars" (or at least extremely deceptive.... you have to parse every last word out of the mouths of these people, on both sides, to discern the meaning and value, if any, of their public statements). 

For this reason, it is a great waste of time to listen to opinion shows of the type presented on MSNBC, Fox News, CNN, OAN, and the like.  But more insidious than the clearly biased, single-minded, and ratings-focused programs are the supposedly "regular" news shows, not only on the aforementioned networks, but on outlets we used to depend on (before you were born LOL) for a fair and accurate representation of the events of the day and a "centralized" evaluation of the views of the majority of Americans.  These days, news directors at even the least nonsensical TV networks, newspapers and Internet sites - all of them - daily make choices concerning which stories to emphasize, which stories to bury and which to ignore. 

The atmosphere these days makes it very difficult for people who want to make up their own minds about issues after hearing voices from both sides present their views.
Where you live, it is necessary to "go the extra mile" to read, hear, or see the side of the story I hear every day.
And where I live, it is necessary to "go the extra mile" to hear, hear, or see the side of the story that you hear every day.
And so I persist.

Bob

Bob,

You just posting more false right-wing propaganda.   The article quotes Rasmussen Reports who openly advocated the LIE that the election was stolen and pushed for a coup that would have destroyed our nation.  Any article that uses information gained from that anti-American organization is beyond tainted.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/531830-rasmussen-quotes-stalin-in-discussing-us-election

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 19, 2021, 10:23:07 AM
Bob,

You just posting more false right-wing propaganda.   The article quotes Rasmussen Reports who openly advocated the LIE that the election was stolen and pushed for a coup that would have destroyed our nation.  Any article that uses information gained from that anti-American organization is beyond tainted.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/531830-rasmussen-quotes-stalin-in-discussing-us-election

Rich: IMO, use of Democrat talking-point boilerplate (such as "right-wing propaganda") minimizes your credibility, turns people off, and fails to advance the discussion.

And exaggeration in a post accusing others of advancing propaganda is bad timing, to say the least (tweeting a quote is not advocacy; correctly noting one of Pence's options is not "pushing for a coup").

Hyperbole is common among politicians, but hardly effective in our forum (see this excellent article - I promise you will like it -->)  https://www.persuasivelitigator.com/2016/12/avoid-hyperbole.html

Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 19, 2021, 11:34:37 AM
Rich: IMO, use of Democrat talking-point boilerplate (such as "right-wing propaganda") minimizes your credibility, turns people off, and fails to advance the discussion.

And exaggeration in a post accusing others of advancing propaganda is bad timing, to say the least (tweeting a quote is not advocacy; correctly noting one of Pence's options is not "pushing for a coup").

Hyperbole is common among politicians, but hardly effective in our forum (see this excellent article - I promise you will like it -->)  https://www.persuasivelitigator.com/2016/12/avoid-hyperbole.html

Bob

Bob,

You literally pushed false propaganda from Rasmussen Reports which while touting themselves as a "non-partisan polling company" literally pushed the proven lie that the election was stolen and advocated overthrowing our government.

To tell me that I am the one with the credibility problem demonstrates just how badly that right-wing propaganda has clouded the thinking and judgment of otherwise sensible and intelligent people

As far as reaching the people who have come under the influence of this dangerous propaganda, it's a long and challenging proposition and requires more than some interactions on a message board.   


A perfect example.   Those under the right-wing propaganda sway-   "THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN!!!!!"   

Attorney General Bill Barr who had a long history of bending the law to serve the President he supported in ways the US Attorney General never should (he is the attorney of the American people, not the President) literally announces that the election was not stolen.   

The same propaganda affected people-   "Bill Barr is from the deep state!!!!  He is lying because he always hated Donald Trump!!!!!"


That sort of position isn't going to be swayed by facts and reason.   

Sadly as long as the right-wing propaganda machine continues to exist and prosper our nation and our democracy is in mortal peril.   Efforts like the ones in Georgia to rob minorities and the poor of their right to vote will spread throughout the nation justified by the lies about stolen elections and how people need to feel assured that the election wasn't stolen (even though those same people have shown themselves immune to facts).   

These are sad and dangerous times we live in and frankly I am not all that optimistic for our nation's future.

Rich: You're repeating an argument you've already made.  That doesn't bother me.  What bothers me is that you misapprehend my purpose.

I'm not trying to CONVINCE you or anyone else here to change any political view or position.  In other words, I'm not "pushing" anything.

My point is very simple... voters should beware the tactics employed by BOTH sides in attempting to persuade the public (by hook or BY CROOK) to accept their side of the argument.

Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 19, 2021, 12:25:58 PM
Rich: You're repeating an argument you've already made.  That doesn't bother me.  What bothers me is that you misapprehend my purpose.

I'm not trying to CONVINCE you or anyone else here to change any political view or position.  In other words, I'm not "pushing" anything.

My point is very simple... voters should beware the tactics employed by BOTH sides in attempting to persuade the public (by hook or BY CROOK) to accept their side of the argument.

Bob

Bob,

Both sides are not trying to change the election laws to make it harder to vote.  So I don't see how you could claim this is an instance of "both sides"

Are political discussions now allowed?

Are they only allowed for when the mod's go back and forth endlessly?

Take it to PM after 17 pages most people with half a brain know your positions.

Quote from: tomeee on April 19, 2021, 01:02:14 PM
Are political discussions now allowed?

Are they only allowed for when the mod's go back and forth endlessly?

Take it to PM after 17 pages most people with half a brain know your positions.

tom: Great to hear from u.  Yes... repetitive and boring. Most political discussion are.  Rich is practicing for an upcoming audition with MSNBC next week.  I'm refereeing a prize fight with just one boxer.  =))

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 19, 2021, 01:16:35 PM
tom: Great to hear from u.  Yes... repetitive and boring. Most political discussion are.  Rich is practicing for an upcoming audition with MSNBC next week.  I'm refereeing a prize fight with just one boxer.  =))

Bob,

I don't think pointing out your posting of right-wing propaganda qualifies me for "MSNBC".  I don't think the left has the monopoly and facts and scientific reason. 


As for Tom, it's nice to see you back, but I am puzzled by your post.  I mean according to your post history, Tomee you haven't been here to talk Giants football since May of 2020.   So I am not sure why you would care what goes on on this sub-forum or our website in general as you are not a regular contributor/member.    Now admittedly you sort of stormed off when you posted a "joke" about how masks that come from China are slathered with the "Chinese virus"  Since I called out what I felt were the racist undertones of those comments you objected.   I would be curious to your take on all the Asian hate crimes we are seeing in our nation.  Do you think jokes like yours contributed to Asians being verbally and physically assaulted simply for being Asian?   

Just pointing out the repetitive and boring posts are becoming the main stream here and the reason I don't contribute more.

As I stated which obviously went over your head that I was curious about why political discussions are now allowed. I and I'm sure many members have had posts deleted because they were deemed not appropriate. i am fine with that but again I question if the censorship is biased?

As for the Chinese virus I am not racist and firmly believe ALL LIVES MATTER. IF you don't want racism don't segregate a group based on nationality or color. And yes my post was a joke.

What about the white kid killed by a cop last week? Should we form protests? Should we burn down burger kings? Do we all buy white live matters shirts and caps?

I heard a wonderful analogy that explains the fundamental issue with the whole "all lives" matter commentary

QuoteImagine that you're sitting down to dinner with your family, and while everyone else gets a serving of the meal, you don't get any. So you say "I should get my fair share." And as a direct response to this, your dad corrects you, saying, "everyone should get their fair share." Now, that's a wonderful sentiment -- indeed, everyone should, and that was kinda your point in the first place: that you should be a part of everyone, and you should get your fair share also. However, dad's smart-ass comment just dismissed you and didn't solve the problem that you still haven't gotten any!

The problem is that the statement "I should get my fair share" had an implicit "too" at the end: "I should get my fair share, too, just like everyone else." But your dad's response treated your statement as though you meant "only I should get my fair share", which clearly was not your intention. As a result, his statement that "everyone should get their fair share," while true, only served to ignore the problem you were trying to point out.

Quote from: tomeee on April 19, 2021, 02:21:58 PM
As I stated which obviously went over your head that I was curious about why political discussions are now allowed. I and I'm sure many members have had posts deleted because they were deemed not appropriate. i am fine with that but again I question if the censorship is biased?

Tom:  My memory of the past is not "world class" but I'll try to explain. Importantly (you may not know) posts on the Main Board are seen by a much wider audience than posts here & on all other boards (sub-boards).

Only members can see "back here" (even some members can't if they have the wrong equipment) so we might allow posts of great interest or importance to stand here and only erase stuff that gets VERY over-the-top.

As for posts on the Main Board, we (hopefully) are quick to erase it or move it back here.  This particular thread started on the Main Board and I moved it back here once major interest in it had faded.

The "rule" (if it's possible to state a rule) is... don't add political remarks to football posts on the Main Board, and if we allow a political issue to stay on the Main Board for a while, be EXTRA careful about what you write.

If someone erased something you wrote they considered it over-the-top.  If you have more questions or don't understand, let me know.

Bob

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 19, 2021, 02:35:02 PM
I heard a wonderful analogy that explains the fundamental issue with the whole "all lives" matter commentary

Rich: Interesting, but it is IMO only a "distant relative" to the subject of this thread. I'll reply (and continue boring everyone else with our back-and-forth LOL) if you move it to a new thread, at your discretion.  Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 19, 2021, 02:41:44 PM
Rich: Interesting, but it is IMO only a "distant relative" to the subject of this thread. I'll reply (and continue boring everyone else with our back-and-forth LOL) if you move it to a new thread, at your discretion.  Bob

Bob,

I like "boring", when things get interesting or exciting, people storm off in a huff.  Give me boring every day of the week ;)