What if when it is time for the Giants to draft in round 1, the clearly best player prospect is an OT. Do the Giants draft the OT?
Quote from: Philosophers on December 22, 2023, 09:50:00 AMWhat if when it is time for the Giants to draft in round 1, the clearly best player prospect is an OT. Do the Giants draft the OT?
Yes, but the Giants will continue to beat the horse that is Evan Neal for at least another season. The Giants are absolute junkies for sunk cost fallacy. The sooner they move him to right guard the better for everyone.
Quote from: Philosophers on December 22, 2023, 09:50:00 AMWhat if when it is time for the Giants to draft in round 1, the clearly best player prospect is an OT. Do the Giants draft the OT?
Here's what I'd like to see. Personally, I haven't given up hope that Neal will become a top RT in the future. But if he doesn't, I'd love to see the Giants draft
Taliese Fuaga, Oregon State Beavers (6-5, 320) top percentile in strength and has a nasty streak a mile long. He's technically excellent in pass protection, but excels in run blocking and zone. He's listed as the 5th (on average) OT in the draft behind Alt, Fashanu, Latham, and Mims. He is a "pure RT" who has never played on the left side of the line...which partly explains why he is lower in the draft order, as LTs are more highly sought. It is proposed that he will go late in the first round or early in the second. He is also listed as the 14th best prospect in the draft, but will fall because of the plethora of top-notch LTs in this draft
Ideally, teams line up with trade offers for the Giants' (5th or 6th spot), we pick up a lower first round pick and a few other picks, and maybe even some team's next year's 1st :-??
Here's a quick summary that doesn't tell a lot:
2024 NFL Draft Scouting Report
Powerful and athletic lineman who excels in pass protection and run blocking. Strong body structure. Moves around well. Athletic legs. Good hand technique with explosive punch. Long arms. Handled spin and "X" stunts with ease. Battles and keeps at it. Great job of keeping his guy away from the quarterback. Needs to keep his feet sliding throughout the rep. Does a great job run blocking using his athleticism and frame. Plays until the whistle blows.Many articles that I have read have stated that if he was moved to RG, he would be an annual Pro Bowler and an All-Pro, and some analysts believe that RG his best and natural position. Hence, should the Giants be lucky enough to get him, he could work in tandem with Neal and if Neal doesn't improve or gets injured, Fuaga simply moves into the RT position
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hn4k6B5G/zzzzz.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on December 22, 2023, 10:15:38 AMHere's what I'd like to see. Personally, I haven't given up hope that Neal will become a top RT in the future. But if he doesn't, I'd love to see the Giants draft Taliese Fuaga, Oregon State Beavers (6-5, 320) top percentile in strength and has a nasty streak a mile long. He's technically excellent in pass protection, but excels in run blocking and zone. He's listed as the 5th (on average) OT in the draft behind Alt, Fashanu, Latham, and Mims. He is a "pure RT" who has never played on the left side of the line...which partly explains why he is lower in the draft order, as LTs are more highly sought. It is proposed that he will go late in the first round or early in the second. He is also listed as the 14th best prospect in the draft, but will fall because of the plethora of top-notch LTs in this draft
Ideally, teams line up with trade offers for the Giants' (5th or 6th spot), we pick up a lower first round pick and a few other picks, and maybe even some team's next year's 1st :-??
Here's a quick summary that doesn't tell a lot:
2024 NFL Draft Scouting Report
Powerful and athletic lineman who excels in pass protection and run blocking. Strong body structure. Moves around well. Athletic legs. Good hand technique with explosive punch. Long arms. Handled spin and "X" stunts with ease. Battles and keeps at it. Great job of keeping his guy away from the quarterback. Needs to keep his feet sliding throughout the rep. Does a great job run blocking using his athleticism and frame. Plays until the whistle blows.
Many articles that I have read have stated that if he was moved to RG, he would be an annual Pro Bowler and an All-Pro, and some analysts believe that RG his best and natural position. Hence, should the Giants be lucky enough to get him, he could work in tandem with Neal and if Neal doesn't improve or gets injured, Fuaga simply moves into the RT position
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hn4k6B5G/zzzzz.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
I like his size at 320 and not larger. I think wide edges are simply too fast for most 335 pound ORTs so to be a bit leaner but strong is key. Good suggestion Jolly.
Swing tackle, yes, right tackle no.
Yea probably. BUT if they can find a good OL coach (admittedly easier said than done) Neal might be serviceable. At least serviceable enough to fill a greater need than that. It's tough to just give up on the guy after 2 miserable seasons given that Feliciano has proven that the coaching he's been getting with the Giants has been just abysmal. It is a wonder Thomas has developed into anything in this environment.
To answer your question, I think they will, yes, provided the OT is the best player on their board at that point and they have ruled out moving up for a QB. OT is a premium position, and given how bad Neal is, I think it's fair to call it an area that could be upgraded. And even if Neal magically improves and becomes a decent player, given his and Thomas' durability, having another quality tackle on the team would not exactly be a bad thing.
With that said, I hope this isn't the direction they go in. I know we need to address the situation at RT, but I'd prefer not to use yet another top 10 or top 5 pick on an OT. That would be our third in just four years. I appreciate the last one was a bust (or seems to be), but we can't just keep doing this over and over again forever. Plus there's still an outside chance Neal could become serviceable next year.
My original post was "Plan A", which only works if we trade down. "Plan B" would be to draft (rd 5-7) a TE (Brevyn Spann-Ford from Minnesota B1G) who is not highly rated because he's primarily a blocking TE and in pass-protection, he gets PFF's highest rating (90 something...too lazy this morning to look it up). He stands at 6-7/270 and has great feet and loves to block. Put him on the side with Neal and you basically have two RT's in which Neal provides power and initial pass protection, while Spann-Ford with his superb athleticism and exceptionally long arms is the quick-footed pass protection helper. He's also decent at catching passes and yards after catch, but he just hasn't been used much in that role while at Minnesota
Just thinking out loud...glad I don't have to make the calls on draft day, LOL
(https://i.postimg.cc/yNP7wv8s/zzzbsf.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/PfcdsLTp/zz-Brevyn-Spann-Ford.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WtMB01DT)
I think the team needs to target a high-end swing tackle. Should Evan Neal fail to prove he is a starter, he could be made the swing tackle and the swing tackle would be the starter.
Keep this in mind if you think drafting an OT in the 1st round fixes the problem. I would bet, without having seen of the 1st round prospects, that none of them are graded as high as Neal was coming out of Alabama or have scouting reports as good as his. Not saying we don't need help or should have an insurance policy but a possible solution is bringing in a Mike Remmers type or even using Pugh in his natural position as a backup next year if Neal fails again. Hopefully, they find a top assistant OL coach.
Also, to those who keep repeating the mantra that Neal needs to be moved inside. Is there any information that tells you he can play inside? Has he ever played inside? Are there many good guards who are as tall as him? Does anyone know?
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 22, 2023, 11:17:32 AMI think the team needs to target a high-end swing tackle. Should Evan Neal fail to prove he is a starter, he could be made the swing tackle and the swing tackle would be the starter.
The biggest problem I see with Neal right now is that he appears to be mentally breaking down in the face of adversity, much like Flowers did before him. Getting snarky with the press is never a good sign when a player is struggling on the field.
Quote from: nb587 on December 22, 2023, 11:31:32 AMAlso, to those who keep repeating the mantra that Neal needs to be moved inside. Is there any information that tells you he can play inside? Has he ever played inside? Are there many good guards who are as tall as him? Does anyone know?
Nope, no guarantees at all.
Quote from: nb587 on December 22, 2023, 11:31:32 AMKeep this in mind if you think drafting an OT in the 1st round fixes the problem. I would bet, without having seen of the 1st round prospects, that none of them are graded as high as Neal was coming out of Alabama or have scouting reports as good as his. Not saying we don't need help or should have an insurance policy but a possible solution is bringing in a Mike Remmers type or even using Pugh in his natural position as a backup next year if Neal fails again. Hopefully, they find a top assistant OL coach.
Also, to those who keep repeating the mantra that Neal needs to be moved inside. Is there any information that tells you he can play inside? Has he ever played inside? Are there many good guards who are as tall as him? Does anyone know?
Flowers comes to mind. He is 6'6". Neal is 6'7" so I would call that negligible. Flowers wasn't a great guard or anything, but he was a catastrophe at OT and became serviceable when moved inside to guard.
It can't hurt to give Neal a try at guard if he can't figure OT out. Not doing that with Flowers (after suffering with him for years at OT) and then letting someone else benefit from his guard play was a mistake we probably shouldn't repeat.
Plus we're so bad at guard that even if Neal were just mediocre he might be the best guard on the team.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 22, 2023, 11:47:40 AMFlowers comes to mind. He is 6'6". Neal is 6'7" so I would call that negligible. Flowers wasn't a great guard or anything, but he was a catastrophe at OT and became serviceable when moved inside to guard.
It can't hurt to give Neal a try at guard if he can't figure OT out. Not doing that with Flowers (after suffering with him for years at OT) and then letting someone else benefit from his guard play was a mistake we probably shouldn't repeat.
Plus we're so bad at guard that even if Neal were just mediocre he might be the best guard on the team.
Putting him at guard might give him the opportunity to do what he is supposed to do well-maul people in a phone booth as opposed to asking him to maintain position in space where his lateral movement gets exposed.
Quote from: Philosophers on December 22, 2023, 09:50:00 AMWhat if when it is time for the Giants to draft in round 1, the clearly best player prospect is an OT. Do the Giants draft the OT?
I hope not. We've already thrown too much resources at the OL.
Three-fifths of the Oline can be seen as positions of need. That said, it is highly unlikely (i.e. not gonna happen) that the Giants would use their 1st overall on someone who is strictly an OG.
Whether or not they will choose one of the "highly-rated" OTs to play RT next season may depend on whether they have concluded that Evan Neal is better suited to play inside which I wouldn't assume to be a lock.
If we think/feel that the most likely 3 positions on the top of their Board are OT, QB, WR, it would- short of a trade up for Williams or Maye, and too late too late to get Harrison Jr, seem to leave OT as the choice.
I am not, and never have been a guesser, but simple logic suggests that Schoen/Daboll are trapped by economic necessity of continuing with DJ as their starting QB whenever he is fully recovered. And so, that would all but rule out a QB in Round 1 rather than as a later pick.
Thus, all the more reason to hope that the early picks and FA priorities would go to the Oline while thoughts of a DJ successor, if still warranted, will reside in what again should be a fertile 2025 Draft.
Cheers!
Quote from: TONKA56 on December 22, 2023, 11:34:41 AMThe biggest problem I see with Neal right now is that he appears to be mentally breaking down in the face of adversity, much like Flowers did before him. Getting snarky with the press is never a good sign when a player is struggling on the field.
I am assuming a new O-line coach. The new coach will hopefully be able to reach Neal. If that fails, I have already laid out the alternative.
Well.lets not make the same mistake as the Jets.did with
Beckon . They kept.waiting for him to.turn the corner
Now he was getting hurt but its.the same thing
What's needed is the attitude across the OL that you(meaning the defense) want to knock out MY QB, well then I'm going to put you in the blue tent before you get the chance.
Quote from: ralphpal1 on December 22, 2023, 12:04:40 PMWell.lets not make the same mistake as the Jets.did with
Beckon . They kept.waiting for him to.turn the corner
Now he was getting hurt but its.the same thing
And so you are implying that they take an OT with their first pick? That certainly would not seem unreasonable to me either as I have suggested above.
Cheers!
Quote from: nb587 on December 22, 2023, 11:31:32 AMKeep this in mind if you think drafting an OT in the 1st round fixes the problem. I would bet, without having seen of the 1st round prospects, that none of them are graded as high as Neal was coming out of Alabama or have scouting reports as good as his. Not saying we don't need help or should have an insurance policy but a possible solution is bringing in a Mike Remmers type or even using Pugh in his natural position as a backup next year if Neal fails again. Hopefully, they find a top assistant OL coach.
Also, to those who keep repeating the mantra that Neal needs to be moved inside. Is there any information that tells you he can play inside? Has he ever played inside? Are there many good guards who are as tall as him? Does anyone know?
Pretty sure Neal was an all American at LT, LG, and RT at Alabama. The problem is our oline coach, he plays to Neal's weaknesses not his strengths. A new oline coach and a little time will correct him imo.
Also Neal hasn't even played a year and hes a bust by many, let's ignore that the same group of fans are fine giving Jones 6 years to do absolutely nothing but no not the olineman that's too far!
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 22, 2023, 12:20:59 PMAlso Neal hasn't even played a year and hes a bust by many, let's ignore that the same group of fans are fine giving Jones 6 years to do absolutely nothing but no not the olineman that's too far!
This isn't about Jones.
One thing to keep in mind is that your first round pick is going to be the most expensive player to sign out of the draft and can be kept longer than the others; therefore, is premium. IMOFWIW...only QB, WR, OT, or ER should be on the Giants' radar. And has been pointed out, the investment in DJ kind of eliminates the idea of grabbing a QB. To me, unless Harrison (or perhaps Nabers which finally gives us a true no.1 WR) is still on the board, it comes down to OT or ER. Both categories of OT and ER are stacked this year, and TE is pretty solid. It's a fairly shallow draft in OG, RB, LB, and Safeties
So it comes down to (assuming we miss out on Harrison/Nabers) either ER or OT, and the direction they choose will probably have a lot to do with Schoen/Daboll's long-term plan with Ojulari. If they think Ojulari is a keeper, and he's resigned, I expect the Giants to do their due diligence on assessing OTs with the Giants' first pick...but who knows :-?? Not me!
Quote from: TONKA56 on December 22, 2023, 12:27:43 PMThis isn't about Jones.
I wasn't making it about Jones. What I meant by the post is give the kid time. The kid hasn't even played a full season and he's a bust just like Thibs was a bust at the beginning of the season to a lot of the fan base. we cant be ok waiting a half a decade for one player, while others only get a season.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 22, 2023, 12:37:47 PMI wasn't making it about Jones. What I meant by the post is give the kid time. The kid hasn't even played a full season and he's a bust just like Thibs was a bust at the beginning of the season to a lot of the fan base. we cant be ok waiting a half a decade for one player, while others only get a season.
He's had almost two seasons.
Quote from: nb587 on December 22, 2023, 11:31:32 AMKeep this in mind if you think drafting an OT in the 1st round fixes the problem. I would bet, without having seen of the 1st round prospects, that none of them are graded as high as Neal was coming out of Alabama or have scouting reports as good as his. Not saying we don't need help or should have an insurance policy but a possible solution is bringing in a Mike Remmers type or even using Pugh in his natural position as a backup next year if Neal fails again. Hopefully, they find a top assistant OL coach.
Also, to those who keep repeating the mantra that Neal needs to be moved inside. Is there any information that tells you he can play inside? Has he ever played inside? Are there many good guards who are as tall as him? Does anyone know?
He played LG for one year at Bama.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 22, 2023, 12:20:59 PMAlso Neal hasn't even played a year and hes a bust by many, let's ignore that the same group of fans are fine giving Jones 6 years to do absolutely nothing but no not the olineman that's too far!
Better to not choke on your enmity toward Jones, Jess lest the economic reality of the situation gives you apnea.
Whether or not Neal's shortcoming to date reflects poor coaching, or some sort of misjudgment, or neither, is yet uncertain. However, as there is no denying that no matter who has been injured, when and where, and the number of different lineups played, the Oline's performance has been absolutely miserable as it so often has been when relying on subpar talent.
Thus, the issue and the question posed is simply whether ORT is position of need? Should we assume that you think not, or simply haven't decided, or that it's not even worth discussing outside of whomever are the QBs and RBs impacted?
Cheers!
Get a QB and a #1 WR.
It's priority 1-10 this offseason.
Quote from: TONKA56 on December 22, 2023, 12:45:51 PMHe's had almost two seasons.
He was injured during long stretches of both seasons and only played in a total of 20 games counting 2 playoff games.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 22, 2023, 01:20:05 PMHe was injured during long stretches of both seasons and only played in a total of 20 games counting 2 playoff games.
That issue doesn't help build optimism.
One of my fears is that we grab the top OT. And like Neal, who made his bones playing the left side of the line, so are the top OT's in this draft, all who have made their bones on the left side: ie,, Alt, Fashanu, Latham, Mims, etc., and they will likely go in the top 20 picks. Do we really want to take a chance on another "great" LT and assume he will transfer to RT without a hitch? Difficult to know
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 22, 2023, 01:20:05 PMHe was injured during long stretches of both seasons and only played in a total of 20 games counting 2 playoff games.
Injured is not getting it done. I know that sounds unfair but sometimes that's the trajectory of some careers. I've really had my fill of those "when he's healthy" players. The most important ability is availability. There's a reason why guys like Darren Waller are affordable.
It's hard to say. The injuries set him back a great deal. Also, his Coach doesn't seem to be able to develop Ezeudu, Peart, McKeathan and JMS either. He's going to get another crack at it according to Schoen. So even the men who work with him every day don't know.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 22, 2023, 01:38:06 PMIt's hard to say. The injuries set him back a great deal. Also, his Coach doesn't seem to be able to develop Ezeudu, Peart, McKeathan and JMS either. He's going to get another crack at it according to Schoen. So even the men who work with him every day don't know.
Way off topic, but in hindsight and in light the video we discussed recently, it was probably a bad move to dismiss Pat Flaherty to begin with.
Quote from: TONKA56 on December 22, 2023, 02:18:50 PMWay off topic, but in hindsight and in light the video we discussed recently, it was probably a bad move to dismiss Pat Flaherty to begin with.
Pat has excellent but I think he's retired. What did you think of Colombo?
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 22, 2023, 03:36:03 PMPat has excellent but I think he's retired. What did you think of Colombo?
According to Wikipedia Pat is the offensive line coach for Rutgers.
I don't have much of a feeling on Columbo, however I believe he is highly regarded by his peers and has some good credentials and a strong resume...and seeing on how the Joe Judge situation played out I'm feeling like we have our answer.
Quote from: Painter on December 22, 2023, 01:04:23 PMBetter to not choke on your enmity toward Jones, Jess lest the economic reality of the situation gives you apnea.
Whether or not Neal's shortcoming to date reflects poor coaching, or some sort of misjudgment, or neither, is yet uncertain. However, as there is no denying that no matter who has been injured, when and where, and the number of different lineups played, the Oline's performance has been absolutely miserable as it so often has been when relying on subpar talent.
Thus, the issue and the question posed is simply whether ORT is position of need? Should we assume that you think not, or simply haven't decided, or that it's not even worth discussing outside of whomever are the QBs and RBs impacted?
Cheers!
It's amazing that you automatically assumed me not thinking Jones is a good football player was the reason that I posted that. Jones had nothing to do with it other than being an example of a player on the team, of which there are multiple examples of the fan base calling the player a bust and not giving them the appropriate time to develop. I list more since Jones can't get mentioned here without people getting in their feelings. Jones has just been given the most time which is glaring considering how poorly he's played.
Micah McFadden
Thibodeaux
Wandale Robinson
Flott
The list goes on of players that people called Busts immediately that are actually getting better as the season progresses because they are only In year 1 or year 2.
The issue with Neal is technique. The organization knew they were getting a monster of a man with feet issues and occasional issues with speed rushers when they drafted him. Instead of catering to what Neal did well at Alabama, Johnson had him learn a completely different technique his rookie season to what he did his entire college career. Then when that didn't work, Johnson and coaches had Neal try a completely different technique this past offseason, and while he was progressing in games this season it wasn't at a fast enough rate. Johnson is almost exclusively responsible for destroying the kid so far and his lazy coaching to have all their guys do something a specific way because its easier to coach, instead of adapting to what his players did extremely well and using that.
Look at tape from Neal in college vs Neal now, his technique is in shambles because of Johnson. It's why the oline is so bad and why not one person has gotten better under him.
They should be using Neal like Orlando Brown Jr or Trent Williams, instead Johnsons just getting a check and ruining our line... So yes Neal has not played well, but whose fault is that really? Obviously a little on him but man kid was dominant for years, and suddenly can't play at all? That's fundamentals and coaching.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 22, 2023, 04:25:41 PMIt's amazing that you automatically assumed me not thinking Jones is a good football player was the reason that I posted that. Jones had nothing to do with it other than being an example of a player on the team, of which there are multiple examples of the fan base calling the player a bust and not giving them the appropriate time to develop. I list more since Jones can't get mentioned here without people getting in their feelings. Jones has just been given the most time which is glaring considering how poorly he's played.
Micah McFadden
Thibodeaux
Wandale Robinson
Flott
The list goes on of players that people called Busts immediately that are actually getting better as the season progresses because they are only In year 1 or year 2.
No need to explain, no excuse necessary. You are entitled to your bias no matter how unrelenting is its focus or whether or not it serves you well. Indeed, it was the latter that I thought worth your attention.
Cheers!
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 22, 2023, 04:57:44 PMThe issue with Neal is technique. The organization knew they were getting a monster of a man with feet issues and occasional issues with speed rushers when they drafted him. Instead of catering to what Neal did well at Alabama, Johnson had him learn a completely different technique his rookie season to what he did his entire college career. Then when that didn't work, Johnson and coaches had Neal try a completely different technique this past offseason, and while he was progressing in games this season it wasn't at a fast enough rate. Johnson is almost exclusively responsible for destroying the kid so far and his lazy coaching to have all their guys do something a specific way because its easier to coach, instead of adapting to what his players did extremely well and using that.
Look at tape from Neal in college vs Neal now, his technique is in shambles because of Johnson. It's why the oline is so bad and why not one person has gotten better under him.
They should be using Neal like Orlando Brown Jr or Trent Williams, instead Johnsons just getting a check and ruining our line... So yes Neal has not played well, but whose fault is that really? Obviously a little on him but man kid was dominant for years, and suddenly can't play at all? That's fundamentals and coaching.
I believe there's much merit in this post. To pile on, Dab's has responsibility to have the right staff on hand.
None of us know whose fault it has been that Neal has thus far failed to meet expectations. We may guess all we want, rightly or wrongly but hardly contrary to an already formed bias. Then again, we should not lose sight of the fact that earlier scouting and evaluating biases can be the area of greatest failure.
Cheers!
why do i get the feeling that if/When they finally switch neal to guard he becomes a pro bowl level talent? the fact they havent done this yet is mind boggling. you have to put your guys in position to succeed. we wont even try it.
Quote from: nb587 on December 22, 2023, 11:31:32 AMKeep this in mind if you think drafting an OT in the 1st round fixes the problem. I would bet, without having seen of the 1st round prospects, that none of them are graded as high as Neal was coming out of Alabama or have scouting reports as good as his. Not saying we don't need help or should have an insurance policy but a possible solution is bringing in a Mike Remmers type or even using Pugh in his natural position as a backup next year if Neal fails again. Hopefully, they find a top assistant OL coach.
Also, to those who keep repeating the mantra that Neal needs to be moved inside. Is there any information that tells you he can play inside? Has he ever played inside? Are there many good guards who are as tall as him? Does anyone know?
Pugh has been awful this year, so I don't think moving him to a more difficult, more important position on the OL is the answer.
And no, there is no evidence that Neal can play inside. But there's ample evidence that he can't play outside, so the thinking is at least give him a shot at OG before completely moving in from him. But the longer they stick with him at OT, the longer the OL will continue to suck.
Evan Neal seems to have multiple issues. One is when an edge attacks wide, he can't get to the spot quickly enough to stop him. Is it that his snap anticipation/reaction is too slow or he moves too slowly to get to the spot he needs to be at? Not sure.
On inside rushes, I see him getting pushed back. How can a mountain of a man lose on an inside move so easily? Is he not moving inside quickly enough and sinking down to a position of strength? If Neal is deficient at these after two years, how did the Giants miss it in their evaluation of him? Giants need to fire Johnson and hire a new OL coach, but if Neal can't fix these problems, he needs to be replaced and the Giants need to move on. We simply can't accept such a deficiency if we want to have an effective passing attack. He is not getting beaten. He is getting beaten badly.
Why is being fickle and rash so often characteristic of the discussions we have of such matters? It's one thing to assume something based largely on our own personal opinion and quite another to assert it as though it's a fact.
While I personally feel that if the Giants are to have a truly competitive Offense, irrespective of who's back there calling signals, or at Running Back, they must make significant improvements to their Oline by upgrading its talent everywhere possible through FA and especially the forthcoming Draft as difficult as that is bound to be.
But, certainly I don't know the Schoen/Daboll & Co thinking in the matter, or what their plans may be at this point regarding ORT and Evan Neal, and any thought of position change or, indeed, whether current Oline Coach, Bobby Johnson will even be a participant in such.
Other than being driven by our personal conceits, these are issues which have barely reached the generalization and the- if this, then that-stage which might also be referred to as " holding our water" time.
Cheers!
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on December 22, 2023, 01:27:33 PMOne of my fears is that we grab the top OT. And like Neal, who made his bones playing the left side of the line, so are the top OT's in this draft, all who have made their bones on the left side: ie,, Alt, Fashanu, Latham, Mims, etc., and they will likely go in the top 20 picks. Do we really want to take a chance on another "great" LT and assume he will transfer to RT without a hitch? Difficult to know
Jolly
Please double check
Latham, Mims and Fuega are RT
Dumpster Dan
Quote from: Dumpster Dan on December 23, 2023, 12:15:19 PMJolly
Please double check
Latham, Mims and Fuega are RT
Dumpster Dan
Thanks for the heads up Dan...I'm just getting started looking at prospects. Good info, thanks for sharing
Quote from: Dumpster Dan on December 23, 2023, 12:15:19 PMJolly
Please double check
Latham, Mims and Fuega are RT
Dumpster Dan
I like Fuaga better than Fashanu because he is a pure RT prospect.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 23, 2023, 01:55:23 PMI like Fuaga better than Fashanu because he is a pure RT prospect.
And he is a mauler with a nasty streak
Dumpster Dan
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 23, 2023, 01:55:23 PMI like Fuaga better than Fashanu because he is a pure RT prospect.
If the Giants plan on giving up on Neal, then Fashanu is ideal (although, Fashanu is a left tackle and would have to learn as has Neal); however, what I like about Fuaga is he's not only a gifted RT, but he's an even better RG. Fashanu is 6-6/319 and Fuaga is 6-6/335 (some say he is closer to 350lbs - who to believe? :-?? ). Fuaga is bigger boned with a heavier mass compared to Fashanu. Fuaga and also a road grading mauler, but he has swift-dancing feet and can play zone up front (think a bigger Zack Martin...even though I hate comparisons) and has exceptionally long arms with baseball-mitt hands. If we draft Fashanu, we must jettison Neal or see if he can work out as a guard, which Neal might not be willing to do after his comments to the press that he's a tackle only and that's all he is and ever was. I don't think Fashanu would want to try playing guard with his successful history of a dominating LT. With Fuaga as RG, he immediately makes Neal better as they could work in tandem. Then in the worst case, if Neal continues to regress, then Fuaga steps in and takes over RT. At worst, Fuaga is a top-notch swing tackle. Some of the reports I've read on Fuaga say his frame and style of play would make him the ideal right guard
I haven't really studied all the tackles, but just getting into it. And now that I'm stuck home with Covid, I have little else to do...can't go anywhere :(
What I do know, is that this draft class is loaded like never before with OTs and WRs. ERs and CBs are pretty good in this draft, but not as loaded as OTs and WRs
We might also now consider that ORT is not quite so different from OLT as once it was. It used to be that a team's best pressuring Edge Rusher almost always was lined up against the OLT. Today, that is not always the case despite the LT having the "greater challenge" of having to protect a right-handed QB's blindside.
Moreover, whether or not there is an in-line blocking TE on that side, we more often now see a team's top rusher facing the ORT. That's due not only to any special skills he may have, but also to the greater use of Dline flexing and stunting. In any case, nothing is necessarily same as it might once have been. Perhaps, we keep that in mind when generalizing about the position?
Cheers!
If you look at the best OTs in the NFL, they are not 335 - 350 pounds but in the 315 - 320 pound area. At a lower weight the OT should be able to move move quickly to stop edge rushers either coming from the outside or inside. Keep in mind that a big player can be defeated if his weight and balance are off. Excellent moving stY in balance OL are what we need.
Quote from: Philosophers on December 24, 2023, 09:54:16 AMIf you look at the best OTs in the NFL, they are not 335 - 350 pounds but in the 315 - 320 pound area. At a lower weight the OT should be able to move move quickly to stop edge rushers either coming from the outside or inside. Keep in mind that a big player can be defeated if his weight and balance are off. Excellent moving stY in balance OL are what we need.
Good observation Phil and you're right. 312-320 is by far the most common weight range for NFL tackles. Which is not to say there have never been good 330-340 pound OTs, but it is not common at all. Take a guy like Tyron Smith, who has long been considered a "monster." Even he is only 312. Recent top notch guys like Joe Thomas, Lane Johnson, and Trent Williams are all in that range too. So is Andrew Thomas.
Neal's weight is not unprecedented (Bryant McKinnie comes to mind), but it is definitely unusual, and I think it is fair to postulate that it may be a hindrance.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 24, 2023, 10:33:33 AMGood observation Phil and you're right. 312-320 is by far the most common weight range for NFL tackles. Which is not to say there have never been good 330-340 pound OTs, but it is not common at all. Take a guy like Tyron Smith, who has long been considered a "monster." Even he is only 312. Recent top notch guys like Joe Thomas, Lane Johnson, and Trent Williams are all in that range too. So is Andrew Thomas.
Neal's weight is not unprecedented (Bryant McKinnie comes to mind), but it is definitely unusual, and I think it is fair to postulate that it may be a hindrance.
It's amazing how a 50 pound weight advantage can be defeated when the bigger player is off balance and not playing low and over his feet. A 285 pound edge that's strong and fast and playing relatively low can defeat those badly flawed OTs all day.
At say 6'6" 310 pounds, an OT still has plenty of size to make it tough in an edge especially if he is playing with good technique. Extra weight brings more problems than solutions.
Same thing with interior OL. Smaller OL win over bigger DL if they have great technique.
More than anything we need a new offensive line coach. I think Evan Neal deserves one more year at right tackle. we could use a swing tackle and see what the new offensive line coach does.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on December 24, 2023, 08:16:36 PMMore than anything we need a new offensive line coach. I think Evan Neal deserves one more year at right tackle. we could use a swing tackle and see what the new offensive line coach does.
Agree. How has Johnson lasted through the season? Does Dabs think if is all due to injury?