Could all the odd things that happened yesterday and Wink resigning give coaches pause to come to NYG and work with Daboll?
As for what I am referring to (happened yesterday)
Having a very early press conference where you fired two coaches prior and then declare that you expect Wink back
It comes out you just fired Wink's right hand man and for good measure his right hand man's brother
Then it comes out that Wink is quitting
I have been listening to pods, and no one seems to think this is a good look for Daboll or NYG.
So is this just a blip or could coaches think twice about coming to work for Daboll?
It could and it couldn't. Everyone is different. Some will see it as a troubled situation and others will see it as an opportunity to show what they can do.
As I said with Wink... I want men that want to be in Blue. He didn't want to be here - bye, Mitch.
To the prospective coaches that want to be here... Let's Go Big Blue! :Giants: :Chestram:
If you are a young aspiring coach, you take on the challenge. You can build a resume that can lead to bigger things if you succeed. Also, the NFL is a small world. If there are ego issues or Daboll has a certain reputation, others will be aware of it and cut you that slack.
Quote from: katkavage on January 09, 2024, 08:46:06 AMIf you are a young aspiring coach, you take on the challenge. You can build a resume that can lead to bigger things if you succeed. Also, the NFL is a small world. If there are ego issues or Daboll has a certain reputation, others will be aware of it and cut you that slack.
Not every coach you hire needs to be aspiring. Some can be proven coaches.
Quote from: T200 on January 09, 2024, 08:43:34 AMIt could and it couldn't. Everyone is different. Some will see it as a troubled situation and others will see it as an opportunity to show what they can do.
As I said with Wink... I want men that want to be in Blue. He didn't want to be here - bye, Mitch.
To the prospective coaches that want to be here... Let's Go Big Blue! :Giants: :Chestram:
Tim,
Here's my issue with that. Wink clearly wanted to be a Giant, or he wouldn't have taken the job. Something happened during his tenure with the Giants that made him not want to be a Giant.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 08:57:47 AMTim,
Here's my issue with that. Wink clearly wanted to be a Giant, or he wouldn't have taken the job. Something happened during his tenure with the Giants that made him not want to be a Giant.
NY ain't for everybody and everybody ain't for NY. I get the sense that Wink felt his sh*t don't stink. He didn't want to look in the mirror and take accountability for his underperforming staff.
Daboll set the standard and example by firing his ST coach and the OL coach, who technically worked for Kafka. Did Mike resign too because Johnson was fired? To me, Wink is a man-baby and I'm glad he's gone. He's living off of his reputation, not production.
Huh I think most Likely wink was the best coach on the staff but we Will see.
I don't know what would attract proven coaches here honestly. A young gun might want to prove himself but even that seems dicey with this organization.
Quote from: T200 on January 09, 2024, 09:05:48 AMNY ain't for everybody and everybody ain't for NY. I get the sense that Wink felt his sh*t don't stink. He didn't want to look in the mirror and take accountability for his underperforming staff.
Daboll set the standard and example by firing his ST coach and the OL coach, who technically worked for Kafka. Did Mike resign too because Johnson was fired? To me, Wink is a man-baby and I'm glad he's gone. He's living off of his reputation, not production.
Tim,
What I can gather is there was a difference in philosophy. At least during games, Daboll can be animated and seems to chew out/curse out coaches and players (much to the delight of fans).
Wink expressed his view on that last season
https://x.com/SNYGiants/status/1580594051568508928?s=20
While there is an emotional appeal to Daboll's old-school butt-kicking approach, I can say that, having spent decades in management, its time has passed. Gone are the days when you could even raise your voice when addressing a subordinate, much less yell at them or chew them out.
Plus, as Wink says, he is playing chess during the game, and you can't properly focus on your job if you are overly emotional and animated. Then you have Daboll, who often looks like he is ready to blow his top in a game.
I guess you could say that neither man is at fault and that it was simply a compatibility issue, but until/if more information comes out, we really won't know beyond impressions (hence the question of this thread)
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 09:22:33 AMTim,
What I can gather is there was a difference in philosophy. At least during games, Daboll can be animated and seems to chew out/curse out coaches and players (much to the delight of fans).
I guess you could say that neither man is at fault and that it was simply a compatibility issue, but until/if more information comes out, we really won't know beyond impressions (hence the question of this thread)
That's what I equate it to, Rich. Daboll is the man in charge. Wink did the right thing if he felt he couldn't mesh with Daboll's style. I can't say I agree with Daboll's style as it isn't for everyone. Some people handle it well, some don't. I look at guys like Ditka, Cowher, Parcells, and Payton... they shared similar traits.
I don't think Daboll's criticism of Wink's defense was unwarranted. I mean, we all watched the games. I would venture to say that Kafka got plenty of Daboll's lashings. We just didn't see it during the games because he was safe in the booth.
Quote from: T200 on January 09, 2024, 09:30:22 AMThat's what I equate it to, Rich. Daboll is the man in charge. Wink did the right thing if he felt he couldn't mesh with Daboll's style. I can't say I agree with Daboll's style as it isn't for everyone. Some people handle it well, some don't. I look at guys like Ditka, Cowher, Parcells, and Payton... they shared similar traits.
I don't think Daboll's criticism of Wink's defense was unwarranted. I mean, we all watched the games. I would venture to say that Kafka got plenty of Daboll's lashings. We just didn't see it during the games because he was safe in the booth.
Tim,
You may have noticed, but I am not one of Wink's critics. I appreciate that Wink's defenses seemed a bit hit-or-miss and didn't hold up. However, I hear smart people who have worked in the NFL frequently talk about the importance of complimentary football. By this, they mean the offense helps the defense by not forcing the defense to spend too much time on the field. The defense helps the offense by generating turnovers and good field positions. The special teams simply help both sides.
Wink's defense often had to carry the team and the talent (I would say the talent was middle of the pack) Wink had to work with made that a nearly impossible task, in my opinion.
Are we to believe Daboll is the only hot-head coach in the NFL? I don't think we'd even really know of that reputation if Wink's camp hadn't begun to promote those stories over this year once he tired of his time here. Wink has now bowed out of two situations. I'm not convinced he's not part of the problem. Very possible that Daboll needs to refine his approach (and he's a first-time coach, so this isn't really a shocker), but Wink seems to me to be malcontented at continually being passed over for head coach when he likely feels more capable than someone a decade his junior.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 09:38:49 AMTim,
You may have noticed, but I am not one of Wink's critics. I appreciate that Wink's defenses seemed a bit hit-or-miss and didn't hold up. However, I hear smart people who have worked in the NFL frequently talk about the importance of complimentary football. By this, they mean the offense helps the defense by not forcing the defense to spend too much time on the field. The defense helps the offense by generating turnovers and good field positions. The special teams simply help both sides.
Wink's defense often had to carry the team and the talent (I would say the talent was middle of the pack) Wink had to work with made that a nearly impossible task, in my opinion.
Honestly, I wasn't a big critic of his either. The entire team was lackluster in both coaching and performance on the field. Changes needed to be made.
Daboll made some. Wink wasn't happy with a couple of them and he left. I don't see that he made a huge impact on the team and subsequently, don't see his resignation as a big loss.
Welcome to the new Clown Show.
The ride is just starting.
Quote from: T200 on January 09, 2024, 09:45:37 AMHonestly, I wasn't a big critic of his either. The entire team was lackluster in both coaching and performance on the field. Changes needed to be made.
Daboll made some. Wink wasn't happy with a couple of them and he left. I don't see that he made a huge impact on the team and subsequently, don't see his resignation as a big loss.
I think Wink's performance is such that hiring his replacement is a challenge of maintaining high quality rather than an opportunity to upgrade.
More importantly, I am not a big fan of change (not from a life perspective, but from a team-building perspective). Schoen has frequently talked about the importance of continuity (as has Daboll) and how it's important for the personnel side of the house to understand the types of players the coaches are looking for. One sure-fire way to stay bad/mediocre is to keep changing coaches and schemes. That leads to a lot of square pegs trying to fit round holes and needless draft/cap capital being spent to change the team's composition to match the desires of the new coaching staff.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 10:14:47 AMI think Wink's performance is such that hiring his replacement is a challenge of maintaining high quality rather than an opportunity to upgrade.
More importantly, I am not a big fan of change (not from a life perspective, but from a team-building perspective). Schoen has frequently talked about the importance of continuity (as has Daboll) and how it's important for the personnel side of the house to understand the types of players the coaches are looking for. One sure-fire way to stay bad/mediocre is to keep changing coaches and schemes. That leads to a lot of square pegs trying to fit round holes and needless draft/cap capital being spent to change the team's composition to match the desires of the new coaching staff.
To be fair, Daboll said he wanted Kafka and Wink to stay. Wink chose to leave. He wasn't fired. That wasn't on Daboll to have the defensive scheme changed.
I would hope Daboll has an idea of what type of DC he wants and that they will do their due diligence in the interviews.
My two cents FWIW...Wink is an old codger who's set in his ways. He's seen it all. He thinks like he's in charge and doesn't take criticism well when delivered by a snot-nosed kid (in his opinion). Daboll does well with younger coaches wanting to work their way up the ladder to hopefully become head coach themselves one day, but not so well with hard-nosed, proven, older coaches who are set in their ways and won't take criticism concerning his style from someone younger and with less experience
Don't get me wrong, I think Wink is a great (even fantastic) coach who I admire and he is one of a kind. But the chemistry between him and Daboll reminds me of a relationship I had with a girl in the past. She would tell me her opinion on some matter and I would simply (and humbly) say, "I agree with you". That would infuriate her, and set her off. She would tell (yell at) me, "I don't need your confirmation, you condescending pig". Good times...LOL
The NY Post has an interesting article on this
QuoteThe Daboll-Martindale relationship first came under public scrutiny when Fox Sports reported in late November that the two coaches were in "a bad place'' with "tension'' that might lead to Martindale not lasting the season.
That report came days after the Giants' defense was torched by the Cowboys for 640 total offensive yards in an embarrassing, noncompetitive 49-17 Week 10 loss in Dallas. During that game, the two coaches were seen having what appeared to be a heated exchange on the sideline in the first half.
Both dismissed that discussion as any sort of issue afterward, but it was no coincidence that the Fox report emerged days later. Reading the tea leaves on this, it was pretty clear that Martindale or someone close to him leaked his disdain to the Fox reporter and that, in turn, infuriated Daboll, who has no tolerance for internal leaks.
"He and I talk all the time," Martindale said afterward about the Dallas incident.
QuoteSafety Xavier McKinney, who had a brief public row with Martindale during the season when he didn't think the coordinator was listening to players' in-game input, called him "a great DC who has a great relationship with a lot of guys.''
McKinney's sentiments about Martindale are pretty universal among the team's defensive players.
Quote"I think players would be a little disheartened and upset [if Martindale wasn't retained], but in this league, there is change, and we understand that,'' cornerback Adoree' Jackson told The Post. "They don't make decisions based off what the players want or think. Whatever decision they do make, whoever they being in if it's not Wink, we've all just got to buy in. You adapt as players and coaches will adapt, too.''
https://nypost.com/2024/01/09/sports/wink-martindale-brian-daboll-divorce-could-make-giants-reboot-more-challenging/?utm_campaign=nypost_sports&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&sr_share=twitter
I honestly work with people I don't like every day. I mean, I really have no respect for them and want nothing to do with them. Now, I'm sure that makes me sound like a first class jerk, and maybe I am, but I don't let my feelings towards them affect how I do my job and I certainly wouldn't do anything other than help them when they needed it. We all work in the same place and the job needs to be done and done right. We all benefit from working together.
I see no reason the Giants couldn't have worked this out, although I do think Daboll is mostly to fault. It was pretty underhanded and comes across as somewhat cowardly to me to have fired Wink's position guys knowing that would most probably send Wink over the edge and then come to the media and say he expects Wink to stay.
I do think that may just be enough to have some established coaches think twice about joining Daboll's staff.
We will see how this plays out in future dealings with Daboll around the league.
The Defense was not the problem
Daboll and his rotten offense was the issue. Mostly Jones and Barkley were the anchors dragging us down
now we start all over and the continuity we just established and success
are rendered moot
its back to square 1
Good Grief
I'd ditch Daboll and bring in Antonio Pierce if I were Mara and Schoen
draft Penix jr and away we go to the Super Bowl......just follow the yellow brick road to the Emerald City
The latest saga involving Wink not actually formally resigning, only further sullies Dabs and NYG
I don't think Wink storming out of the building furious is a great look, myself. Do I think it will have a materially damaging impact on the Giants' reputation as a franchise (and vis-a-vis their ability to hire quality candidates)? Possibly but I kind of doubt it. Exits are often less than seamless. And Wink has had curious exits before.
To me the bigger issue the Giants have with hiring is that they stink. If you're a coordinator candidate and you have aspirations of being a head coach, you want to be going to teams with good rosters that will make you look good and be more likely to be hired for a bigger role. With the Giants, you just don't have that outlook. At best it will take a few years, and that's IF the roster improves tangibly, which is hardly a lock given.
I think the obviously mendacious way the presser yesterday was handled by Daboll (you cannot expect Wink back knowing you are about to fire his guys) will upset our owners more than those beyond the building.
I do think the smell around Daboll as a people manager will be a factor for coaches with other options but where it will rank vs general health of franchise, NJ taxes and other potential deterrents depends on the individual. Some people place a high premium on interpersonal fit, others have more measurable priorities.
I doubt any coaches will change their opinion based on this situation. Daboll has been around the NFL for a while and its a small fraternity of coaches. I am sure he knows a lot of them and they know him. Either they liked or didn't like him prior to this.
I do wonder if it goes beyond poor performance of a position group that caused the termination of the Wilkins brothers.
Quote from: londonblue on January 09, 2024, 12:03:08 PMI think the obviously mendacious way the presser yesterday was handled by Daboll (you cannot expect Wink back knowing you are about to fire his guys) will upset our owners more than those beyond the building.
I do think the smell around Daboll as a people manager will be a factor for coaches with other options but where it will rank vs general health of franchise, NJ taxes and other potential deterrents depends on the individual. Some people place a high premium on interpersonal fit, others have more measurable priorities.
I agree, and I have to admit I had to look up mendacious (a rare word I didn't have a clue what it meant).
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 12:16:12 PMI agree, and I have to admit I had to look up mendacious (a rare word I didn't have a clue what it meant).
Quote from: BluesCruz on January 09, 2024, 11:47:02 AMThe Defense was not the problem
Daboll and his rotten offense was the issue. Mostly Jones and Barkley were the anchors dragging us down
now we start all over and the continuity we just established and success
are rendered moot
its back to square 1
Good Grief
I'd ditch Daboll and bring in Antonio Pierce if I were Mara and Schoen
draft Penix jr and away we go to the Super Bowl......just follow the yellow brick road to the Emerald City
No thanks on Penix. Didn't impress me yesterday.
No, not in most cases. Not unless there was a previous history of friction in which case the issue would be moot; wouldn't arise. There are so few such opportunities that unless a so called, candidate is independently wealthy, poorly motivated, and indifferent- how likely is that?- the whole notion is just a finger-wave in and to our fanny.
If there is a problem, it will be in finding the right guy from among the many. That's a matter for which no doubt we will be offering our wisdom once we have decided who to blame for the larger issue which involves the team's return to its more usual state of profound mediocrity or worse.
Although, I am not going to speculate about cause, effect, or blame re any of the recent coaching changes including the Wink dink, I must say that the performance of the Giants Defense has been disappointing, not just this year, but over the last 10 games of the year before. Not much difference if you give up 26 ppg to finish 3-6-1 or 24 ppg and end up 6-11.
Yes, the Giants Offense is even worse which is why it is must be the center, the nidus, the focal point currently for any and all issues regarding the competency, ability, and talent of staff and players. And for me, it begins with Joe Schoen needing to decide if Brian Daboll, despite being named 2022 COTY isn't an example, a victim if you like, of the Peter Principle. And if he is, we can only hope that we aren't as well, so we can keep trying to make sense of Big Blue Nonsense.
Cheers!
@Fast Eddie Felson "Mendacity is a system that we live in, liquor is one way out an' death's the other."
Quote from: Painter on January 09, 2024, 12:56:57 PMYes, the Giants Offense is even worse which is why it is must be the center, the nidus, the focal point currently for any and all issues regarding the competency, ability, and talent of staff and players. And for me, it begins with Joe Schoen needing to decide if Brian Daboll, despite being named 2022 COTY isn't an example, a victim if you like, of the Peter Principle.
Right on cue Painter gives us another word to look up, wrapped in a good point.
To answer the question posed on this thread. I think that there will be coaches who will be hesitant to come to the Giants for this reason . If the Giants have another awful season in 2024, Daboll will most likely be gone and a new coach will want his own assistants .
After hearing about the 24 stunt Wink pulled on Sunday, I've moved toward Daboll's side a bit more in this dispute.
Quote from: AYM on January 09, 2024, 06:16:13 PMAfter hearing about the 24 stunt Wink pulled on Sunday, I've moved toward Daboll's side a bit more in this dispute.
The NYG PR team is doing a full-court press on Wink. Assuming it's true, then Wink was wrong. Still, it's hard to know what is and isn't true at this point, at least for me.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 07:46:37 PMThe NYG PR team is doing a full-court press on Wink. Assuming it's true, then Wink was wrong. Still, it's hard to know what is and isn't true at this point, at least for me.
Is this reconcilable at this point? Will this end with the Giants firing him claiming something that will negate any guarantees?
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 07:46:37 PMThe NYG PR team is doing a full-court press on Wink. Assuming it's true, then Wink was wrong. Still, it's hard to know what is and isn't true at this point, at least for me.
Even if what the team is saying isn't 100% true, I believe the facts to be:
- Wink has not been fired
- Wink has verbally said he's resigning but has not formally submitted his resignation
- Wink has left NY/NJ and went to Sarasota
- Wink has not returned calls from Shoen or Daboll
- Wink is under contract for next season for $3M
- Wink cannot take a job with another team unless it's a head coach position or the Giants release/fire him
No matter what the Giants have said to this point excuses or justifies Wink's behavior.
HOW was this whole mess allowed to get to this point is the real question to me.
Lack of management by the organization allowed this to have a starting point, an escalation and now where we are today.
Sad.
Quote from: T200 on January 09, 2024, 10:36:17 PMEven if what the team is saying isn't 100% true, I believe the facts to be:
- Wink has not been fired
- Wink has verbally said he's resigning but has not formally submitted his resignation
- Wink has left NY/NJ and went to Sarasota
- Wink has not returned calls from Shoen or Daboll
- Wink is under contract for next season for $3M
- Wink cannot take a job with another team unless it's a head coach position or the Giants release/fire him
No matter what the Giants have said to this point excuses or justifies Wink's behavior.
Tim,
Wink may not have returned calls, but from what I hear, Wink has directed NYG to discuss matters with his agent. NYG "leaked" only part of the story to make Wink look worse.
To the rest of the story, I slept on all the information I have gathered and I started a thread discussing the Wink saga and how I see it fitting into bigger issues within the organization
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 07:46:37 PMThe NYG PR team is doing a full-court press on Wink. Assuming it's true, then Wink was wrong. Still, it's hard to know what is and isn't true at this point, at least for me.
Within the coaching circles, potential candidates will find out what really happened. The way these guys bounce around between different colleges and pro teams when they first start (if they are not former NFL players), they eventually have friends all over the league.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 08:45:12 AMTim,
Wink may not have returned calls, but from what I hear, Wink has directed NYG to discuss matters with his agent. NYG "leaked" only part of the story to make Wink look worse.
To the rest of the story, I slept on all the information I have gathered and I started a thread discussing the Wink saga and how I see it fitting into bigger issues within the organization
Rich,
I just finished reading your thread. Thanks for taking the time to share your detailed thoughts.
I haven't seen/heard anything that Wink directed team to discuss matters with his agent. If his beef is with Daboll and not Schoen, why ghost Schoen? I don't like how he's handling any of this.
Quote from: coggs on January 10, 2024, 08:54:51 AMWithin the coaching circles, potential candidates will find out what really happened. The way these guys bounce around between different colleges and pro teams when they first start (if they are not former NFL players), they eventually have friends all over the league.
From all I have seen and heard to this point, I would think twice before I took a job with NYG. Too much dysfunction and drama. I would prefer to work with a team that is more professional and stable.
When it comes to hiring coaches, the Giants are already a bit handicapped. Over the years, I have heard insiders (who I talked to) say NYG is less than an ideal landing spot. Apparently, the Giants don't pay well, and that is made worse by the high cost of living in the region as well as the additional taxes.
Quote from: T200 on January 10, 2024, 08:56:47 AMRich,
I just finished reading your thread. Thanks for taking the time to share your detailed thoughts.
I haven't seen/heard anything that Wink directed team to discuss matters with his agent. If his beef is with Daboll and not Schoen, why ghost Schoen? I don't like how he's handling any of this.
Tim,
I heard that on one of the pods I listened to this morning. I think it was Paul Schwartz, but I am not a hundred percent certain.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 08:57:49 AMFrom all I have seen and heard to this point, I would think twice before I took a job with NYG. Too much dysfunction and drama. I would prefer to work with a team that is more professional and stable.
When it comes to hiring coaches, the Giants are already a bit handicapped. Over the years, I have heard insiders (who I talked to) say NYG is less than an ideal landing spot. Apparently, the Giants don't pay well, and that is made worse by the high cost of living in the region as well as the additional taxes.
I can believe all of this. But assistants and position coaches know there is a good chance they will live a nomadic life. A big part of the interview process for a head coach is they budget they will give him for his staff.
Quote from: coggs on January 10, 2024, 09:21:11 AMI can believe all of this. But assistants and position coaches know there is a good chance they will live a nomadic life. A big part of the interview process for a head coach is they budget they will give him for his staff.
There will always be coaches who are desperate to move up or for a second chance, so the Giants will always find candidates. What will be missing will be the established quality position coaches (who are highly desirable) who have the luxury to pick and choose.
FWIW cuz works for an AFC franchise nearby. Giants are generally held to be willing to pay above NFL average for top coaches (coordinators & key assistants) but are notoriously skinflint with more junior coaching assistants, scouts and analysts. Salary won't be an issue hiring a new DC, STC or OL guy but our perceived dysfunction, NJ taxes and the perennials of climate, lifestyle for family etc. will be as always.
Quote from: londonblue on January 10, 2024, 09:45:11 AMFWIW cuz works for an AFC franchise nearby. Giants are generally held to be willing to pay above NFL average for top coaches (coordinators & key assistants) but are notoriously skinflint with more junior coaching assistants, scouts and analysts. Salary won't be an issue hiring a new DC, STC or OL guy but our perceived dysfunction, NJ taxes and the perennials of climate, lifestyle for family etc. will be as always.
That's almost worse to hear. The best franchise, with long stretches of success and stability, promote from within. If you can't attract the best people at the bottom, you fail to create the pipeline for those in-house promotions that provide a team needed stability.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 09:55:04 AMThat's almost worse to hear. The best franchise, with long stretches of success and stability, promote from within. If you can't attract the best people at the bottom, you fail to create the pipeline for those in-house promotions that provide a team needed stability.
I think it cuts both ways. If you're willing to take less on the front end, your growth potential is more. Sure, you may make more as an entry-level position at another franchise, but you stand to make less long-term potentially. This isn't uncommon in most businesses. Some are going to choose the immediate reward and some are going to be incentivized by the potential. I don't see it as disqualifying.
Now, other quality-of-life factors may change that calculus. But purely money-wise, I think it's probably net-neutral (if anything, I bet a number of these guys have already slogged through making very little money as quality control coaches, assistant position group coaches, etc. and are willing to bet on themselves.).
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on January 10, 2024, 09:57:53 AMI think it cuts both ways. If you're willing to take less on the front end, your growth potential is more. Sure, you may make more as an entry-level position at another franchise, but you stand to make less long-term potentially. This isn't uncommon in most businesses. Some are going to choose the immediate reward and some are going to be incentivized by the potential. I don't see it as disqualifying.
Now, other quality-of-life factors may change that calculus. But purely money-wise, I think it's probably net-neutral (if anything, I bet a number of these guys have already slogged through making very little money as quality control coaches, assistant position group coaches, etc. and are willing to bet on themselves.).
I will make it more concrete. Right now, the Giants need a really good O-line coach (after a long string of really bad ones). Being desirable both in destination and pay is how one gets a really good one rather than a string of bad ones.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 10:03:57 AMI will make it more concrete. Right now, the Giants need a really good O-line coach (after a long string of really bad ones). Being desirable both in destination and pay is how one gets a really good one rather than a string of bad ones.
Their typical behavior is just their typical behavior: nothing prevents the Giants from going over and above to get their guy. Also, the language was they pay above-market for "key assistants." Very possible that's OL coach here.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 07:46:37 PMThe NYG PR team is doing a full-court press on Wink. Assuming it's true, then Wink was wrong. Still, it's hard to know what is and isn't true at this point, at least for me.
I'd think the 24 thing would be easily proven wrong if they made it up.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 09:38:49 AMTim,
You may have noticed, but I am not one of Wink's critics. I appreciate that Wink's defenses seemed a bit hit-or-miss and didn't hold up. However, I hear smart people who have worked in the NFL frequently talk about the importance of complimentary football. By this, they mean the offense helps the defense by not forcing the defense to spend too much time on the field. The defense helps the offense by generating turnovers and good field positions. The special teams simply help both sides.
Wink's defense often had to carry the team and the talent (I would say the talent was middle of the pack) Wink had to work with made that a nearly impossible task, in my opinion.
Agree totally
Wink made Chicken soup from Chicken feathers
Daboll's offense was mostly lame
As I have said in other posts, Daboll should be tossed also.
Start over with a top of the line HC. Daboll came to us with zero HC experience, and it shows. We won 6 games and in those 6 wins it was the D that led the way with umpteen turnovers generated.
To make matters worse, the back up QBs showed Daboll's judgement to ride Jones as starting QB was catastrophic. Perhaps Mara saddled Daboll with Jones. Who knows
Daboll's on an increasingly hot seat but we have to break our cycle of two and done HC so he gets year 3 to show growth on and off the field.
As for OL coach or coordinators I have no doubt Mara/Tisch will pay what is needed if we have a shot at an in-demand candidate. I have more doubts about whether or not we are an attractive proposition to top candidates.
We all know the Giants are old school in certain business and people aspects so the lower than top end salaries my cousin reports (decent benefits, working environment) in entry level and lower positions is really part and parcel of that 'work your way up' and 'earn your stripes' mentality. As with most things in life there are pros and cons.
From what I read it sounded like on the D side it was less collaborative as Wink and Wilkins ran D and kept out other D coaches from collaborating. If true, I can see a firing being justified if the coaches being kept out have good ideas and are not idiots.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 11, 2024, 08:23:44 AMFrom what I read it sounded like on the D side it was less collaborative as Wink and Wilkins ran D and kept out other D coaches from collaborating. If true, I can see a firing being justified if the coaches being kept out have good ideas and are not idiots.
As Mike Lombardi said, if they weren't included in the collaborative process, you have to ask why that was the case. In the same podcast, there was something else that Mike said that struck me (in terms of collaboration)- "you have never seen any one put up a statue to honor a committee"
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2024, 08:26:04 AMAs Mike Lombardi said, if they weren't included in the collaborative process, you have to ask why that was the case. In the same podcast, there was something else that Mike said that struck me (in terms of collaboration)- "you have never seen any one put up a statue to honor a committee"
No one who ever got a statue did so without a team of people behind them
Quote from: babywhales on January 11, 2024, 08:29:00 AMNo one who ever got a statue did so without a team of people behind them
When you develop a defensive game plan, it can be done by the DC by themselves, it can be done with the DC and one or two others he works very well with, or it can be done collaboratively with the entire team.
In the end, a smart head coach allows his coordinators to work in the way they are most comfortable with and where they are most effective. To tell a DC how to come up with his game plan is what would be called micromanaging.
Quote from: BluesCruz on January 11, 2024, 04:44:02 AMAgree totally
Wink made Chicken soup from Chicken feathers
Daboll's offense was mostly lame
As I have said in other posts, Daboll should be tossed also.
Start over with a top of the line HC. Daboll came to us with zero HC experience, and it shows. We won 6 games and in those 6 wins it was the D that led the way with umpteen turnovers generated.
To make matters worse, the back up QBs showed Daboll's judgement to ride Jones as starting QB was catastrophic. Perhaps Mara saddled Daboll with Jones. Who knows
In 2022 the defense certainly did not carry the team. They were a liability more than not, certainly not to the extent the offense was this season but they were the weak link that season. And they had more pieces than the offense.
If anyone deserved the Houdini award in 2022 it was Daboll for creating the most basic preliminary smoke and mirrors offense yet they were still able to get production with a horrible line, a glorified backup QB, a receiver corp led by Slayton.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2024, 08:37:20 AMWhen you develop a defensive game plan, it can be done by the DC by themselves, it can be done with the DC and one or two others he works very well with, or it can be done collaboratively with the entire team.
In the end, a smart head coach allows his coordinators to work in the way they are most comfortable with and where they are most effective. To tell a DC how to come up with his game plan is what would be called micromanaging.
Sure people work in different ways but that doesn't have any tie to Lombardi's comment.
FYI, overall through 33 games, Winks game plans sucked
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 09:38:49 AMWink's defense often had to carry the team and the talent (I would say the talent was middle of the pack) Wink had to work with made that a nearly impossible task, in my opinion.
I don't see any case that can be made that there wasn't significantly more talent on the defense than the offense. I don't get the notion that Wink's performance was because of lack of talent but the offense's performance was all on Daboll.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 11, 2024, 10:27:12 AMI don't see any case that can be made that there wasn't significantly more talent on the defense than the offense. I don't get the notion that Wink's performance was because of lack of talent but the offense's performance was all on Daboll.
It is very simple. To me, MG wants to put the bulk of the blame on Daboll because he doesn't like his management style.
Quote from: coggs on January 11, 2024, 10:33:20 AMIt is very simple. To me, MG wants to put the bulk of the blame on Daboll because he doesn't like his management style.
Coggs,
I think your use of the word "wants" is incorrect. I don't "want" to blame anyone. However, like you and everyone else here, I examine the facts and assign blame based on my values (which are based on my decades of management experience in a variety of settings).
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2024, 10:43:27 AMCoggs,
I think your use of the word "wants" is incorrect. I don't "want" to blame anyone. However, like you and everyone else here, I examine the facts and assign blame based on my values (which are based on my decades of management experience in a variety of settings).
As a manager with decades of experience, are you OK with Wink's insubordination?
Quote from: T200 on January 11, 2024, 10:48:38 AMAs a manager with decades of experience, are you OK with Wink's insubordination?
That's a really difficult question to answer. There are degrees of insubordination, and there are usually circumstances surrounding a given incident. For me, each case has to be considered on its own in context with an employee's history and value (along with the seriousness of the offense). There have been cases where I have disciplined employees, and there are others where I ignored it (as I got older, I learned the value of selective vision and hearing).
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2024, 11:00:21 AMThat's a really difficult question to answer. There are degrees of insubordination, and there are usually circumstances surrounding a given incident. For me, each case has to be considered on its own in context with an employee's history and value (along with the seriousness of the offense). There have been cases where I have disciplined employees, and there are others where I ignored it (as I got older, I learned the value of selective vision and hearing).
Somehow, I expected this type of response from you :laugh:
There's only one situation at issue: Wink's insubordination. Yes, we know there are different levels to insubordination and there are circumstances where it is warranted. This ain't that. You know enough of the information to side with him. So, my question is simple: do you support his insubordination IN THIS SITUATION?
Quote from: T200 on January 11, 2024, 11:06:45 AMSomehow, I expected this type of response from you :laugh:
There's only one situation at issue: Wink's insubordination. Yes, we know there are different levels to insubordination and there are circumstances where it is warranted. This ain't that. You know enough of the information to side with him. So, my question is simple: do you support his insubordination IN THIS SITUATION?
Cursing me out and storming off- Considering this was a management-created/inspired incident, if I was going to push Wink to do it, I am doing it to get rid of him (not my style, but you have to call out the incident).
Leaking a story to the media- That really depends. We still don't know all the details (because we haven't heard anything from the Wink camp since the Giants pushed him to quit) as to why Wink felt the need to go to the press. If Wink had repeatedly asked me not to dress him down on the sidelines for millions to see, and I continued to do so, I would sort of blame myself. The request was reasonable, refusing to grant the request not so much.
Blowing off dinners with all the other coaches- That is one where it's a management decision. If I wanted to keep Wink, I would appreciate how he liked to work (mostly just with his defensive team), and I would let him do his thing, as long as he still took input from me as the head coach in things I needed from the defense in a given week. On the other hand, if a manager is convinced that all his coaching staff needs to be the let's go to dinner together type and a group doing their own thing is unacceptable (or there is a particular way you want your coaches to work), then you let Wink go (in a professional manner) either in season or after the season if he refuses to comply.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2024, 11:15:24 AMCursing me out and storming off- Considering this was a management-created/inspired incident, if I was going to push Wink to do it, I am doing it to get rid of him (not my style, but you have to call out the incident).
Leaking a story to the media- That really depends. We still don't know all the details (because we haven't heard anything from the Wink camp since the Giants pushed him to quit) as to why Wink felt the need to go to the press. If Wink had repeatedly asked me not to dress him down on the sidelines for millions to see, and I continued to do so, I would sort of blame myself. The request was reasonable, refusing to grant the request not so much.
Blowing off dinners with all the other coaches- That is one where it's a management decision. If I wanted to keep Wink, I would appreciate how he liked to work (mostly just with his defensive team), and I would let him do his thing, as long as he still took input from me as the head coach in things I needed from the defense in a given week. On the other hand, if a manager is convinced that all his coaching staff needs to be the let's go to dinner together type and a group doing their own thing is unacceptable (or there is a particular way you want your coaches to work), then you let Wink go (in a professional manner) either in season or after the season if he refuses to comply.
:laugh: =D> =D> =D>
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2024, 11:00:21 AMThat's a really difficult question to answer. There are degrees of insubordination, and there are usually circumstances surrounding a given incident. For me, each case has to be considered on its own in context with an employee's history and value (along with the seriousness of the offense). There have been cases where I have disciplined employees, and there are others where I ignored it (as I got older, I learned the value of selective vision and hearing).
For my money, his value in leading a bottom tiered defense is nowhere near enough to warrant putting up with any level of insubordination, let alone what sounds like his pretty extreme level of insubordination. It's bad when you have cliques among the players, but far worse when you have cliques among the coaches.
Been thinking about this as Daboll is interviewing for a DC today
Why would anyone consider a position with the Giants if Daboll is on such a hot seat according to a couple (if that many)_ writers as well as countless fans that he may be fired if not before the season certainly a possibility during the season if the Giants get off to the expected losing season next year projected by many??
Dumpster Dan
Quote from: Dumpster Dan on January 24, 2024, 09:11:53 AMBeen thinking about this as Daboll is interviewing for a DC today
Why would anyone consider a position with the Giants if Daboll is on such a hot seat according to a couple (if that many)_ writers as well as countless fans that he may be fired if not before the season certainly a possibility during the season if the Giants get off to the expected losing season next year projected by many??
Dumpster Dan
Good question. I guess the answer would be that they have limited opportunities elsewhere. And they may feel that the unit that's the biggest liability on the Giants is the offense, so even if Daboll gets fired after a bad season in 2024, it may not be viewed by others as their fault.
But it's a fair question for sure. If I were a DC candidate with multiple options, I would want to go somewhere more stable like Dallas.
Didn't Wink have similar issues with John Harbaugh?
Quote from: expatriot on January 24, 2024, 09:30:22 AMDidn't Wink have similar issues with John Harbaugh?
We don't know for sure. We do know that it was reported as a mutual decision by both parties to move on from each other. It was also reported that Harbaugh wanted to institute some defensive philosophy changes prior to their split.
Daboll also called for defensive changes, although it may not have been as diplomatic as Harbaugh's request/suggestions.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 24, 2024, 09:14:50 AMBut it's a fair question for sure. If I were a DC candidate with multiple options, I would want to go somewhere more stable like Dallas.
You think Dallas is more stable? They haven't been to an NFC Championship, let alone a Super Bowl, in over 2 decades, they have an owner who is also the GM and the have a coach that is perennially on the hot seat and, by most accounts, should have been let go a couple years ago. I'll give you that they have more talent but not stability.
I will speak in general terms. I have to think that these are the things that make a coordinator (and to a lesser degree, a position coach) job more attractive.
1) You are coming to work with a new head coach
2) You get to call your own plays
3) You are coaching on the opposite side of the ball than the HC's background (less interference and full credit for success)
4) You are being hired to replace a coordinator who got a head coaching gig
Now, with the Daboll situation, you have an HC going into his 3rd season, having had a very disappointing season and having fired or forced out 2 or 3 (depending on what happens with Kafka) his coordinators.
Regardless of how you assign blame in the drama that came out of 1925 Giants Way, objectively Daboll's job seems less secure than your average HC at this point. While there are more coaches wanting to advance than their are jobs, so you can always fill a spot, those that are most in demand and can afford to be pickier may opt for a more secure situation.
Quote from: WheresDayne on January 24, 2024, 11:14:28 AMYou think Dallas is more stable? They haven't been to an NFC Championship, let alone a Super Bowl, in over 2 decades, they have an owner who is also the GM and the have a coach that is perennially on the hot seat and, by most accounts, should have been let go a couple years ago. I'll give you that they have more talent but not stability.
I don't see where advancing deep into the playoffs has much to do with stability. The Steelers haven't been to a championship game in almost a decade, but they are one of the most stable organizations out there.
McCarthy is only the 2nd coach the team has had in the last decade. The Giants are on coach number 5 in that time frame. That's what I think of when I think stability.
Whether or not fans think someone should be fired is moot.
All good points Uconn, and i agree. But where we either pick the wrong HC's or dump them too early, Dallas seems to hold onto them too long. Garrett and McCarthy are both good examples. I guess i'm just biased in my dislike for Dallas and i'd hate to work for JJ. So maybe they're more stable but they're also as dysfunctional.
I see Dallas as underachieving in the playoffs, but their average of 12 wins/season for the last 3 years is something I would love to see for the Giants.
Personally I wouldn't want to work for Jerrah either, but his drafting has been pretty solid for about a decade or so (since he passed on Manziel and took Zack Martin instead.
I was skeptical that this stuff was going to turn people away from the Giants (I am always skeptical of that type of stuff). The way the DC interview process is going has made me rethink my stance.
Were the Giants interested in a guy like Rivera? Did he say no thanks? Or was he not on the list of potential interviewees. Either way I question it. If he wasn't on the short list, personally I think he should have been. If he didn't want to come to NY it would be interesting to know why. It could be he wants a place that has players in place and is closer to a championship. Or it could be that the word in the league among coaches is to stay away from NY if you have a choice.
Some of the Rivera stuff is just my own personal bias as seeing him as a great candidate and a guy with a great reputation around the league.
Regardless, I am starting to get less skeptical of the rumors and more skeptical of what's going on inside the FO.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 24, 2024, 09:14:50 AMGood question. I guess the answer would be that they have limited opportunities elsewhere. And they may feel that the unit that's the biggest liability on the Giants is the offense, so even if Daboll gets fired after a bad season in 2024, it may not be viewed by others as their fault.
But it's a fair question for sure. If I were a DC candidate with multiple options, I would want to go somewhere more stable like Dallas.
So it's bad to go to the Giants because the HC might get fired before his contract is up but it's better to go to Dallas who has a coach working with only one year left on his contract.
I think you used the wrong example in your comment.