If that is true, it's a terrible look for Daboll. No matter how NYG and Daboll's defenders spin it, Daboll will have struck out on all three of his coordinator hirings or drove them away (or both). Being able to hire and manage a coaching staff is one of the primary requirements of a good head coach.
https://x.com/JordanRaanan/status/1748329691658748146?s=20
Not a good look, but it might be a good decision.
Sh*t happens. Yeah, it may be a bad reflection on Daboll and his ability to assemble a top-notch staff. Some how, some way, a change needed to happen.
I think it will be for the better all-around. The tea is out there about how abrasive/abusive Daboll is. The new coordinators can't say they didn't know. They know exactly what they're in for.
Let the searches begin!
It's pretty odd to lose 3 coordinators and not the HC after a season like this one.
It's almost like starting all over again.
It's odd to see people cite Daboll's coach of the year and the better than expected results from 2022 to keep the him, but not give Kafka any credit for 2022. Thought he called the plays the entire year.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 19, 2024, 08:46:59 AMIt's pretty odd to lose 3 coordinators and not the HC after a season like this one.
It's almost like starting all over again.
It's odd to see people cite Daboll's coach of the year and the better than expected results from 2022 to keep the him, but not give Kafka any credit for 2022. Thought he called the plays the entire year.
The Coach of the Year award is a reflection of the work of the entire coaching staff. As you said, it's like we are almost getting a new coaching staff without the benefit of the extra practice time that usually offsets such drastic changes
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 19, 2024, 08:51:29 AMThe Coach of the Year award is a reflection of the work of the entire coaching staff. As you said, it's like we are almost getting a new coaching staff without the benefit of the extra practice time that usually offsets such drastic changes
That is my point. There is a certain amount of get rid of Kafka but keep Daboll sentiment. Blaming Kafka for this year but not giving credit for last year.
It might work out for the best. Either way, Daboll has work to do this off season. He has to turn this around or he's gone after next year.
Quote from: katkavage on January 19, 2024, 09:23:22 AMIt might work out for the best. Either way, Daboll has work to do this off season. He has to turn this around or he's gone after next year.
If Schoen and Daboll get a QB in the draft and Daboll doesn't turn it around, do you think Schoen would dump Daboll?
Keep in mind, they both came into a situation where there was a QB in place that they didn't bring in. Firing Daboll would, in essence, create the same situation for the new HC.
We needed an OC who had called plays previously, and we didn't get that. Now we might get that. Seems like a positive to me.
Quote from: T200 on January 19, 2024, 09:28:45 AMIf Schoen and Daboll get a QB in the draft and Daboll doesn't turn it around, do you think Schoen would dump Daboll?
Keep in mind, they both came into a situation where there was a QB in place that they didn't bring in. Firing Daboll would, in essence, create the same situation for the new HC.
Tim,
This is a tough hypothetical to answer, especially with a potential rookie QB in the mix.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 19, 2024, 09:29:18 AMWe needed an OC who had called plays previously, and we didn't get that. Now we might get that. Seems like a positive to me.
Could be, or it could be a negative. Was the problem Kafka or when Daboll took over play calling it got worse?
Experienced play caller might not be a good play caller.
Not sure the play calling was really the issue the past year. There was a host of other issues.
Out of curiosity, if they're firing Kafka, why the hold-up? Their season has been over for nearly two weeks now.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 19, 2024, 09:46:36 AMOut of curiosity, if they're firing Kafka, why the hold-up? Their season has been over for nearly two weeks now.
I don't think they are firing him. I think he is going to take another job. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get.
If Kafka does want to leave, I think the whole Wink situation left Kafka in the catbird season. If I were Kafka and if I felt Daboll was treating me poorly, I would tell the Giants I wish to seek my fortunes elsewhere, and if the Giants agree to that, in return, I would say the parting was mutual, and I wouldn't utter a bad word about the organization. After what happened with Wink, the last thing the Giants need is another ugly departure by a coordinator.
On the other hand, this is a tricky maneuver by Kafka. If Kafka can't find a coordinator job elsewhere, it would be pretty awkward to return to the Giants. I think this only works if Kafka's agent treads dangerously close to tampering and has already found a landing spot for his client.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 19, 2024, 09:48:07 AMI don't think they are firing him. I think he is going to take another job. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get.
Got it. If he takes another OC job, then that's definitely not a great look.
Having said that, it's also a reflection of reality. Our offense is horrid, and we're not picking high enough to get one of the big three QBs. I don't even think a trade-up will be possible (which I know most here are against anyway). So if he has an opportunity to go somewhere like say Detroit where there's a legit offense, I can understand wanting to do that.
Kafka has been interviewing for head coaching positions. Ranaan's comments (purposefully vague) may be nothing more than a reflection that someone is going to bring Kafka on in that role. Leaving for a HC job is hardly an indictment of Daboll. OC position? Different story altogether, I agree. But we don't know how this ends yet so I'm not going to speculate when the evidence points to HC for Kafka.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on January 19, 2024, 10:04:18 AMKafka has been interviewing for head coaching positions. Ranaan's comments (purposefully vague) may be nothing more than a reflection that someone is going to bring Kafka on in that role. Leaving for a HC job is hardly an indictment of Daboll. OC position? Different story altogether, I agree. But we don't know how this ends yet so I'm not going to speculate when the evidence points to HC for Kafka.
As far as I know, Kafka has one HC interview, and frankly, I would be surprised if he gets it. Mike Lombardi likes to say HCs are elected rather than selected. I think part of what he means is that owners need to sell the fan base on the new HC. I can't imagine that fans would be excited with a new HC who coordinated one of the worst offenses in the league, regardless of how many extenuating circumstances there were.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 19, 2024, 09:57:33 AMIf Kafka does want to leave, I think the whole Wink situation left Kafka in the catbird season. If I were Kafka and if I felt Daboll was treating me poorly, I would tell the Giants I wish to seek my fortunes elsewhere, and if the Giants agree to that, in return, I would say the parting was mutual, and I wouldn't utter a bad word about the organization. After what happened with Wink, the last thing the Giants need is another ugly departure by a coordinator.
On the other hand, this is a tricky maneuver by Kafka. If Kafka can't find a coordinator job elsewhere, it would be pretty awkward to return to the Giants. I think this only works if Kafka's agent treads dangerously close to tampering and has already found a landing spot for his client.
There has already been an interview request for him. With 25% of the teams looking for a new HC this offseason, there is going to be plenty of OC positions changing.
I think it's a good possibility that whatever issues Daboll has dealing with assistants will be well discussed within the fraternity.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 19, 2024, 10:20:28 AMAs far as I know, Kafka has one HC interview, and frankly, I would be surprised if he gets it. Mike Lombardi likes to say HCs are elected rather than selected. I think part of what he means is that owners need to sell the fan base on the new HC. I can't imagine that fans would be excited with a new HC who coordinated one of the worst offenses in the league, regardless of how many extenuating circumstances there were.
I believe he interviewed (or will) with both the Titans and Seahawks. There's little reason for anyone to interview him unless they want to give him a legitimate shot (he doesn't help them satisfy the Rooney Rule). Like I said, I'm not ruling it out that he leaves for another OC position, but this reeks of Ranaan piling on the narrative that Daboll is driving a wedge in the staff (regardless as to whether that is correct or not). It's whispers with not an ounce of substance.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on January 19, 2024, 10:52:47 AMI believe he interviewed (or will) with both the Titans and Seahawks. There's little reason for anyone to interview him unless they want to give him a legitimate shot (he doesn't help them satisfy the Rooney Rule). Like I said, I'm not ruling it out that he leaves for another OC position, but this reeks of Ranaan piling on the narrative that Daboll is driving a wedge in the staff (regardless as to whether that is correct or not). It's whispers with not an ounce of substance.
I missed the Seahawks interview
Interviews do offer more value than you realize. Interviews allow teams to learn how other processes other teams use. While there have been issues with Daboll, he is still well-respected for his acumen as an offensive coordinator. I am sure teams would be happy to take an interview to get some new insights on how he does it.
Is he getting initial interviews, which are done via video call, or did he pass that phase on to the in person phase?
I have to say its pretty apparent that people around the league think more highly of Kafka than many Giants fans.
Personally, I think this makes Daboll look a bit more like a HC. He assembled a staff and when something doesn't work out you cut the cord and move on instead of stringing things along.
I couldn't care less why coaches leave or get fired, but when something ain't working, I give the HC a lot of credit for trying to move on and getting it right.
When he assembled his staff, they all looked good on paper, but the game isn't played on paper. Clash of personalities, not on the same page scheme-wise, or just incompetent, the HC has to know when to bring in new people to accomplish his goal. Come on, we see this all the time, even mid-season. IMHO, this is a wise move on Daboll's part.
Quote from: LennG on January 19, 2024, 11:52:26 AMPersonally, I think this makes Daboll look a bit more like a HC. He assembled a staff and when something doesn't work out you cut the cord and move on instead of stringing things along.
I couldn't care less why coaches leave or get fired, but when something ain't working, I give the HC a lot of credit for trying to move on and getting it right.
When he assembled his staff, they all looked good on paper, but the game isn't played on paper. Clash of personalities, not on the same page scheme-wise, or just incompetent, the HC has to know when to bring in new people to accomplish his goal. Come on, we see this all the time, even mid-season. IMHO, this is a wise move on Daboll's part.
Right on Len But how come so many disagree with us???
Dumpster Dan
Quote from: katkavage on January 19, 2024, 09:23:22 AMIt might work out for the best. Either way, Daboll has work to do this off season. He has to turn this around or he's gone after next year.
Sad....for the franchie and the fans....that we have to sacrifice next year.
Especially when the problem is right in front of us.
Yea but the players play hard and like him. Well, at the salaries they get and no way to hide from the cameras and analysis they should.
And yet this organization is willing to waste a season in hopes of what ??
Pathetic..
But we make tons of money:)
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 19, 2024, 09:06:19 AMThat is my point. There is a certain amount of get rid of Kafka but keep Daboll sentiment. Blaming Kafka for this year but not giving credit for last year.
Because the offense hasn't been good for both years
Going for 2 which was a Daboll decision in game 1 of the season set the season for success .... Daboll took more risks in year one and a lot paid off
This past season not so much
The jets game this season was a completely different Daboll and embarrassing I admit
But Kafka has been bad both seasons .... Daboll has not
Quote from: killarich on January 19, 2024, 12:36:09 PMBecause the offense hasn't been good for both years
Going for 2 which was a Daboll decision in game 1 of the season set the season for success .... Daboll took more risks in year one and a lot paid off
This past season not so much
The jets game this season was a completely different Daboll and embarrassing I admit
But Kafka has been bad both seasons .... Daboll has not
Agreed. Dabol coached with absolute fear in Jets game. It was an embarrassment. He allowed ultra conservative play calling all season long. He deserves to get a chance to rectify next year but all this smoke coming out now does not bode well for him unless he has a big season.
I'm still concerned he had the Joe Judge deer in headlights look several times this season. Not good
Lenn and Dan,
Here are my concerns/curiosities here:
1) I don't think I can recall a team changing 3 coordinators but keeping the HC. What caused this unique circumstance?
2) if all 3 of these guys were not "the right guy", how do we trust their decision making going forward? Did they learn from going 0 for 3 on their initial hires?
3) if some of these things happened independently (i.e. firing a STs coordinator) and without the sh!tstorm being reported it would feel a lot different. The reporting may be overstated and slanted and maybe most of the staff wants to work for Daboll. I am not convinced either way, but I feel like the way this has gone down is cause for some skepticism at least.
Quote from: killarich on January 19, 2024, 12:36:09 PMBecause the offense hasn't been good for both years
Going for 2 which was a Daboll decision in game 1 of the season set the season for success .... Daboll took more risks in year one and a lot paid off
This past season not so much
The jets game this season was a completely different Daboll and embarrassing I admit
But Kafka has been bad both seasons .... Daboll has not
How can Kafka be bad both seasons but Daboll has not been?
Quote from: Trench on January 19, 2024, 12:43:45 PMAgreed. Dabol coached with absolute fear in Jets game. It was an embarrassment. He allowed ultra conservative play calling all season long. He deserves to get a chance to rectify next year but all this smoke coming out now does not bode well for him unless he has a big season.
I'm still concerned he had the Joe Judge deer in headlights look several times this season. Not good
I disagree about the Jets game. You have to think going into that game Devito had exactly 0 practice reps because he was the 3rd string guy. If anything he was scout team QB. And the defense was essentially pitching a shutout. The most likely way for them to lose that game was to let Devito do something stupid. Barkley was running well..the defense was manhandling the Jets...and the Giants had the lead.
I question the decision to kick the FG with a broken kicker at the end rather than go for 4th down for sure. But with everything that happened before that they had 4th and 1 where either a FG or a first down wins them the game. They just blew it and then the defense gave up the only two big plays they gave up the entire game.
Quote from: Trench on January 19, 2024, 12:43:45 PMAgreed. Dabol coached with absolute fear in Jets game. It was an embarrassment. He allowed ultra conservative play calling all season long. He deserves to get a chance to rectify next year but all this smoke coming out now does not bode well for him unless he has a big season.
I'm still concerned he had the Joe Judge deer in headlights look several times this season. Not good
Yet when Daboll should have been afraid (that his wounded kicker couldn't kick a field goal), he was fearless
Quote from: T200 on January 19, 2024, 09:28:45 AMIf Schoen and Daboll get a QB in the draft and Daboll doesn't turn it around, do you think Schoen would dump Daboll?
Keep in mind, they both came into a situation where there was a QB in place that they didn't bring in. Firing Daboll would, in essence, create the same situation for the new HC.
This is one of the reasons I don't think the Giants draft a QB this year. They will fill holes elsewhere on the team and if Jones comes around, great. If he doesn't and Jones and Daboll are both goners, a new HC and his staff will get to pick their own QB. And the unending circle of mediocrity will continue.
Has anyone other than Raanan reported that Kafka is likely on his way out?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 19, 2024, 01:38:12 PMHas anyone other than Raanan reported that Kafka is likely on his way out?
I haven't seen anything from anyone else. I haven't even seen people talking about Raanan's claim.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 19, 2024, 12:50:09 PMLenn and Dan,
Here are my concerns/curiosities here:
1) I don't think I can recall a team changing 3 coordinators but keeping the HC. What caused this unique circumstance?
2) if all 3 of these guys were not "the right guy", how do we trust their decision making going forward? Did they learn from going 0 for 3 on their initial hires?
3) if some of these things happened independently (i.e. firing a STs coordinator) and without the sh!tstorm being reported it would feel a lot different. The reporting may be overstated and slanted and maybe most of the staff wants to work for Daboll. I am not convinced either way, but I feel like the way this has gone down is cause for some skepticism at least.
It is something we rarely see. I think we all knew ST was horrible and the coach had to go. It depends on how you view the offense to see how Kafka fared and I believe he was horrible in his game plans. I mention it several times, but this went right from the get-go when Kafka was calling QB runs, in the 4th quarter in the opener, down by 30+. What sense was that? I also believe he never really adjusted to the talent of the QBs on the field. he had a game plan, and he rarely diverted from it, even when anyone with one eye could see it wasn't working. Kafka has to go as he never helped the offense one bit. Wink is another story, and that is just a clash in personalities.
There is no way Daboll getting canned. They have to give him a chance to fix things, even if it means changing his staff.
Again, and this is just MOVHO, Kafka was the cause of many of our offensive woes this year and I wanted him gone by mid-season. If, what is being reported as true, is, there were several clashes between Daboll and Kafka, then I give Daboll credit for holding on till the end of the season.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 19, 2024, 01:40:03 PMI haven't seen anything from anyone else. I haven't even seen people talking about Raanan's claim.
That makes me a touch skeptical.
I also think the pool of available coaches out there (Vrabel, Belichick, Harbaugh, Slowik, Ben Johnson) makes it a hard sell to me that Kafka is going to get one of the few remaining spots.
If he leaves for another OC job on a better team or with a HC who doesn't scream at him in his headset every time a play doesn't work, then that would surprise me less.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 19, 2024, 12:51:36 PMHow can Kafka be bad both seasons but Daboll has not been?
In Kafka's 1st season, the team had a top 5 rushing offense even though everyone knew they were going to run.
They were middle of the road in PPG.
That's with a terrible OL and slim pickens at pass catching positions. I think Kafka was exceptional in year 1.
Quote from: LennG on January 19, 2024, 02:02:53 PMIt is something we rarely see. I think we all knew ST was horrible and the coach had to go. It depends on how you view the offense to see how Kafka fared and I believe he was horrible in his game plans. I mention it several times, but this went right from the get-go when Kafka was calling QB runs, in the 4th quarter in the opener, down by 30+. What sense was that? I also believe he never really adjusted to the talent of the QBs on the field. he had a game plan, and he rarely diverted from it, even when anyone with one eye could see it wasn't working. Kafka has to go as he never helped the offense one bit. Wink is another story, and that is just a clash in personalities.
There is no way Daboll getting canned. They have to give him a chance to fix things, even if it means changing his staff.
Again, and this is just MOVHO, Kafka was the cause of many of our offensive woes this year and I wanted him gone by mid-season. If, what is being reported as true, is, there were several clashes between Daboll and Kafka, then I give Daboll credit for holding on till the end of the season.
Lenn,
I hope you are right. I definitely agree on the STs coordinator. I think that point might be the most agreed upon thing on this forum.
I think the big picture here is making me more skeptical. They need a big improvement in play on the OL and QB positions. If they don't get it, I think Daboll and all 3 new coordinators won't be around for 2025.
And then it starts all over.
There is a lot of moving parts and not much to hang your hat on to say its headed in the right direction. We'll see who the new coordinators are at some point, and as of now Kafka is the Giants OC.
If Daboll thought Kafka was the problem on offense I assume he would have fired him at the same time as the other firings.
I agree!
Whether it says anything about Daboll is yet to be seen.
From my perspective, it's better to make whatever changes are necessary (for whatever reason) than to allow a problem to spread and ruin the culture of the ball club.
I'm not taking a side (other than I wanted a new OL & ST Coach) nor do I really care if Daboll has a short fuse....as long as he wins.
I'm getting too old to be patient.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
If you were Kafka....would you stay?
The memory isn't what it used to be but didn't Coughlin make changes in his coordinators early in his tenure? I'm not so much concerned about the look as I am getting the right people in their roles
Quote from: brownelvis54 on January 19, 2024, 05:41:47 PMIf you were Kafka....would you stay?
If I had the chance to go somewhere like Houston or Detroit (teams with good offenses who are likely losing coordinators), I very likely would not stay. The Giants are looking at another partial or possibly full season with Daniel Jones. If you're an OC trying to get a HC job, that's not exactly a position of strength.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 19, 2024, 06:10:51 PMIf I had the chance to go somewhere like Houston or Detroit (teams with good offenses who are likely losing coordinators), I very likely would not stay. The Giants are looking at another partial or possibly full season with Daniel Jones. If you're an OC trying to get a HC job, that's not exactly a position of strength.
Yup.
If they name a HC in SD tomorrow and he wants Kafka as OC, he'd be crazy not to take it.
Quote from: Rosehill Jimmy on January 19, 2024, 05:54:13 PMThe memory isn't what it used to be but didn't Coughlin make changes in his coordinators early in his tenure? I'm not so much concerned about the look as I am getting the right people in their roles
Yes, he did. The most notable was moving off of John Hufnagel,who held the role from 2004 to midway 2006. He was replaced by then-QB coach Kevin Gilbride, who held the role as an interim OC for the rest of 2006 before assuming the permanent assignment from 2007-2013.
Peace!
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 19, 2024, 06:10:51 PMIf I had the chance to go somewhere like Houston or Detroit (teams with good offenses who are likely losing coordinators), I very likely would not stay. The Giants are looking at another partial or possibly full season with Daniel Jones. If you're an OC trying to get a HC job, that's not exactly a position of strength.
Is it possible that his decision will have something to do about the team's commitment to Daniel Jones? There could be more than one reason.
I'm a little surprised that he's even being considered for a HC job. He had a couple years as QB coach working with arguably the best QB in the game (where he didn't call plays), then a couple of years with the Giants as the play caller without a whole lot of luck. He's 36 and seems a little green to me to be stepping into the top spot of coaching at this stage of his career. We'll see
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on January 20, 2024, 09:06:37 AMI'm a little surprised that he's even being considered for a HC job. He had a couple years as QB coach working with arguably the best QB in the game (where he didn't call plays), then a couple of years with the Giants as the play caller without a whole lot of luck. He's 36 and seems a little green to me to be stepping into the top spot of coaching at this stage of his career. We'll see
I don't think he's HC bound this year. He would do best going to a situation where he has a better chance to flourish. Seems like this bridge has been burnt.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 20, 2024, 08:14:37 AMIs it possible that his decision will have something to do about the team's commitment to Daniel Jones? There could be more than one reason.
Sure, there can be a lot of factors. But clearly he has aspirations to be a head coach, as most young coordinators do. So I would guess the overarching factor in any decision to leave for a lateral move would center around his assessment of what his fastest track is towards getting a HC job. So I think a large part of the decision would be centered around the caliber of the offense on the team he's headed for.
The reality is just about any team, save for maybe one or two, would be an improvement over our offense.