Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on Today at 11:52:32 AMThe ironic thing is there was quite a ground-swell brewing amongst the fanbase to nix both Simms and Eli because both of them took longer than expected to really flourish within the Giants offense. Part was maturation, part was getting talent around them. DJ is in a similar boat. I really don't see Dave Brown here. He is not beyond hope in my humblest of opinions, gentleman.

The Simms and Eli example are now 25 and 40 years old; plus, Eli didn't take 6 years to mature. He was a SB MVP by year 3...it's an overused and poor example. 

Today, the game is fundamentally different and QB maturation reflects that reality.  Kids have access to professional camps from age 8 on, colleges are no longer running wishbones and student body left/right; today college offenses are as sophisticated as the NFL. College nutrition and strength program are also on par with NFL clubs. It no longer takes 3+ years for NFL QBs to emerge. Just look at every QB to enter the NFL in the past decade; you'll notice an obvious and fundamental trend. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 10:44:51 AMI think you are overstating things when you claim that Kafka "led the league's best passing game."   Kafka wasn't the OC; he was the quarterback's coach & passing game coordinator.  To make matters worse, Andy Reid, rather than the OC, calls the plays for the Chiefs.

Again, you're obfuscating.  Can you please answer the question. Putting everything aside, why did both the OC and HC have immense success in KC and Buff, but considered a hindrance to DJ now? Why weren't they hinderances in 2022? 

Isn't it more likely DJ is a hindrance to the HC, than the latter is to the former?

Do I think the Giants have a good offense? Heck No!  In the modern NFL you need a plus QB to compete with the offensive juggernauts.

Do I think we're #31?  I don't know as I'd have to analyze the other teams.  I do think we're #4 in our own conference though. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 10:35:56 AMIf you believe Kafka didn't have issues, how do you explain Daboll seeking to take away (and he did take away multiple times last season) play-calling duties?

You answered a question with a question. Again, can anyone explain why Kafka was a hot OC, led the leagues best passing game in KC, was considered a Genius here in 2022, but is now a reason for DJs failures?  I'd also like to hear more about how a hot OC in Buff and NFL CoY is also part of DJs problem.

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on Today at 10:24:23 AMThe most unbelievable part in this equation hasn't been DJ's production as much as it has been an organization's abject failure to provide him with anywhere near a functional supports system.

I think some are looking for something to blame and have trouble seeing that the support system when you try and best apply metrics to it and it's overall ineptitude that it would rank among the league worst if not the league worst over the last five years when you account for both the coaching side and the talent side of the main things needed for a successful passing game.

This requires further explanation. Are you claiming the HC and OC are part of the problem?  If so, can you explain their successes in KC and Buff?  I also believe the Giants have some talent that's being hindered by the QB. Is it a coincidence that Robinson started to emerge with the backup QB?  Can we also agree that DJ enjoyed playing with a top 3 LT and RB? 

His support system was indeed below average; however, you lost me on the coaching aspect.  I also think it's a bit of stretch to say his Kitchen was completely bare.

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on Today at 10:14:12 AMDJ was 29-34 that preseason. And some of those balls he threw were absolute dots. It also translated to the season as well. His issue as a rookie was ball security and understanding how to run without getting annihilated by NFL defenders.

He has since cleaned that part up. Now if we get him a better coached OL (possibly checked off now) and an actual half decent WR group (possibly ALSO checked off now) with a viable offensive system (that too may be checked off under Daboll/Kafka)

I think we all whatever we think of DJ all (mostly) agree that DJ has had a very subpar support system of those 3 items for his career.

I don't think it's an impossibility that he looks more like the player we have seen have some very high level games now that those things could finally be in place.

Some may disagree that is a reasonable view. Fine. Well either way there is a good chance it's going to happen this year health withstanding, him being the starting QB that is. So why not just hope for the positive outcome. Otherwise why even bother watching this season?

Brother, the pre season is rarely in indicator on future success; id caution you from trying to glean anything from those pointless exhibitions.

Regardless, I appreciate the conversation and how you carry yourself.  Again, I look forward to future discussions.

Btw, I hope the Giants aren't relying on hope, as hope is not a viable course of action 😝

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 09:20:35 AMMatt,

I am confused.  The expectation for the Eagles (and this seemed to be a strong consensus) was that they would be returning to the Super Bowl.  How does putting up 11 wins (and making the playoffs) while suffering an embarrassing end-of-season loss to the Giants and immediately getting booted from the playoffs in a butt-kicking by the Bucs suggest the Eagles met expectations?

Expectations by whom?

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 09:15:46 AMThis comment sort of reflects the issue with discussing Jones.  Uncle Mickey had "showed flashes of brilliance" as a part of an argument.  The Jones critics focused on that part of the argument and first claimed Jones never showed brilliance.  Then, when you show historic accomplishments that any reasonable person would say was a flash of brilliance, the goalposts were moved, and it was claimed failed QBs had shown flashes of brilliance (not sure what that even means in context to UM's original point).  Finally, we have an entire point Uncle Mickey made thrown out, and it's declared the point that Jones has shown flashes of brilliance is now the entire argument, and clearly, that argument is a "bad one."

How can there be quality conversation in conditions like that?

The better question: How can you have a quality conversation when the opposing viewpoint reframes aggregate responses to benefit thier position?  Pray Tell, show me where the "Jones Critics" dismissed his 'brilliance.' Indeed, DJ's had some wonderful games/movements.  Nobody dismises that point; some, put them into context, like @Jess who noted most occurred during his rookie campaign.   However, that's not the majority point.  The point was, and still is, a lot of professional QBs have moments of brilliance, especially QBs with 60 starts.  However, you chose to completely ignore that point, presumably because you don't have a good response; thus, you simply reframed the oppositions' position to give yourself the moral and intellectual high-ground.         

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 08:54:51 AM@DaveBrown74 and @kingm56

Remember last year when everyone ignored the Eagles' losing both their OC and DC and predicted a repeated trip to the Super Bowl? The Cowboys lost their very talented DC this past offseason (along with a number of veteran starters). Those sorts of losses tend to go under the radar but are often the most impactful.

Yet, they still won 11 games and made the playoffs.   This place went crazy when we won 9 games; so, I don't see 11 wins as a failure, despite how they finished.

If OC/DC were the primary issue, they would have struggled out the gate as players were learning the new systems; however, the reverse happened.  Even good teams go through spells; it happens all the time.  Regardless, I suspect they'll win double-digit games again this season, but will wait until Aug to make any real predictions. 

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on Today at 07:54:58 AMI won't disagree that Dallas might take a step back this year. I still think their floor is pretty high though. A step back for them might mean just 10 wins instead of their typical 12 or 13. Is our absolute best case scenario ceiling higher than that? Never say never I guess, but I highly doubt it. We did add some nice players, but we also lost some, and we have deeper holes in our roster than they do.

Let's not forget Dal also has an AP returning to thier secondary this season; they still have AP/PB level talent on both sides of the ball. 

Quote from: B1GBLUE on May 03, 2024, 03:24:55 PMfor sure...but he also had a good to great oline most of his career, and the perfect system for him to work in. think about how many guys they were able to swap out like edelman and welker over the years basically seamlessly. the system you are in can be just as important as the people executing it. save for the randy moss years, tom was never exactly airing it out. he was hitting guys underneath that could pick up YAC.

What evidence do you have to support that statement?  Concerning Brady, he had a completely new system in TB and enjoyed career years; conversely, the system you claim was culpable for his success has been abysmal since his departure.  The architect of said system, now has a record of 82-98 without Tom Brady. QBs like Brady and Manning are successful wherever they go, while their OCs like McDaniels and Adam Case are duds.  It should be clear as day the QB is more important to the system, than the system is to the QB.  In short, good QBs are going to be good, regardless of the system. 

"save for the randy moss years, tom was never exactly airing it out. he was hitting guys underneath that could pick up YAC"

This statement is just false.   

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/tom-brady-passes-over-20-yards-by-year

Brady is probably not the guy you want to use to prove that QB needs elite WRs to be successful, or an Oline for that matter. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 07:13:10 AM2011 was a bit of an anomaly.   The Giants were just 9-7 during the regular season.  Frankly, they didn't even look as good as their record most of the time.  However, health and the playoffs inspired much better play from the offensive line, which helped propel the Giants to their 4th Super Bowl trophy.

I'll grant you that point; however, that's not the point being discussed here. The point was made that high-performing Oline(s) were the most critical component to Eli's and Brady's success, during thier primes. Clearly, that statement is factually false. 

BTW, Eli was fairly consistent between 2008 and 15, regardless of his oline rankings:

2008*   27   NYG   QB   16   289   479   60.3   3238   21   10   86.4   66.9   PB
2009   28   NYG   QB   16   317   509   62.3   4021   27   14   93.1   71.7   
2010   29   NYG   QB   16   339   539   62.9   4002   31   25   85.3   57.7   
2011*   30   NYG   QB   16   359   589   61   4933   29   16   92.9   64.2   AP CPoY-6, PB
2012*   31   NYG   QB   16   321   536   59.9   3948   26   15   87.2   67   PB
2013   32   NYG   QB   16   317   551   57.5   3818   18   27   69.4   38.6   
2014   33   NYG   QB   16   379   601   63.1   4410   30   14   92.1   61   
2015*   34   NYG   QB   16   387   618   62.6   4432   35   14   93.6   57.9   PB

Age clearly caught up with him during the 2016+ seasons...

Quote from: TONKA56 on Today at 06:50:21 AMDon't forget also that in 2011 Victor Cruz exploded onto the scene from nowhere. Defenses had no answer for Cruz, Nicks, and Manningham and had to pick thier poison. Meanwhile Jake Ballard developed a penchant for the amazing clutch catch. 

So I'd say Manning, JPP, and Cruz carried the Giants to the playoffs. 

No doubt, Tonka.  I was merely responding to false-narrative that Brady and Manning required high-performing Olines to be successful.  Cruz was as integral to the Giants' success as JPP, but no player was as important as Eli...what a great year he had!

Quote from: sxdxca38 on May 03, 2024, 10:20:38 AMWhat is more important to the QB than the WR is the offensive line.

Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their careers.

It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense.

Did you bother researching your own question? Clearly not...

Eli Manning
Without Question, Eli's best season was 2011, the only year he received All-Pro votes, was a Pro Bowler, and won a SB.  That year, PFF ranked the NYG Giants Oline #31 (#32 pass protection).  His running game was dead-last...he and JPP carried that team to the playoffs.
 
Here's the exert from PFF:

Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn't just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants' line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.

Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting ... outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.

Worst Player: It's hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.

Tom Brady
It's complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.  In 2014, 15 and 16, the onlines were bad...REAL BAD.  During that span, he continued to play at an AP/MVP level,.

Enjoy the PFF exerts:

2014:
23. New England Patriots

Pass Blocking Ranking: 31st, Run Blocking Ranking: 8th, Penalties Ranking: 19th

Stud: Our second-team All-Pro right tackle Sebastian Vollmer had himself another good year and avoided the injury bug for a change. Bonus.

Dud: The 306 snaps that Jordan Devey managed were brutal to watch at times. Not much of a pass blocker, he didn't exactly light it up in the run game either.

Breakdown: Nate Solder had a bad year by his standards and the interior gave up way too much pressure. They did bloody some rookies, but this group appeared a unit in transition, with the team trying to patch up something just good enough to not harm their skill players too much.

2015:
25. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
Pass-blocking rank: 31st

Run-blocking rank: 12th

Penalties rank: 15th

Stud: Far from perfect, but Josh Kline looked the part when he got on the field.

Dud: Pick your poison here. None were truly atrocious, but most were well below average. None more so than Cameron Fleming, who allowed way too much pressure.

Summary: The good news is that, where they struggle (pass protection), they have a quarterback good enough to overcome it. But it was still so bad that you wonder how much easier (and better) life for Tom Brady could have been with better protection.
 
"I think we've established how atrocious the New England Patriots offensive line performed in 2015. Almost every single player to suit up on the line was hurt for some extended period of time, and the team had to rely on a series of young, inexperienced, and hurt players to protect the best player in the NFL."

According to Pro Football Focus, the Patriots offensive line ranked 31st in the league in pass protection, ahead of only the San Diego Chargers.
 
Key Takeaways:
1. Both the 2015 Pats and 2011 Giants won SBs with PFFs 31st and 32 ranked pass blocking olines
2. Prime Eli Manning was absolutely capable, and DID, overcome terrible oline play
3. Tom Brady was an MVP/AP/SP Winner with the NFLs "31 ranked pass protection
4. Tom Brady was capable of making his Line look better than they were
   2007: Brady was sacked 21 times
   2008: Brady injured, Matt Cassel was sacked 47 times with the same Oline and Coach
   2009: Brady returns and the line reverts to allowing just 16 sacks; funny how that works
5. Over the past few months, I've watched fans incorrectly attribute sacks allowed to the Oline, without giving any consideration to the QB; QBs who process poorly are sacked more...is that really a surprise?

I could provide a lot more data points, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of objective or subjective data will change it.  Regardless, your statement regarding Eli's and Brady's reliance on the oline has objectively been proven false. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 03:33:08 PMMatt,

You are conflating season stats with what @Uncle Mickey called "flashes of brilliance."

You highlighted DJs 'brilliance', while simultaneously discounting Mitch T own brilliance. The latter was an NFC player on the week and pro bowler in 2018. That's the point; a lot of NFL starters flash brilliance, which is why they're 1 of 32 people in the world to do it.