Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 07:13:10 AM2011 was a bit of an anomaly.   The Giants were just 9-7 during the regular season.  Frankly, they didn't even look as good as their record most of the time.  However, health and the playoffs inspired much better play from the offensive line, which helped propel the Giants to their 4th Super Bowl trophy.

I'll grant you that point; however, that's not the point being discussed here. The point was made that high-performing Oline(s) were the most critical component to Eli's and Brady's success, during thier primes. Clearly, that statement is factually false. 

BTW, Eli was fairly consistent between 2008 and 15, regardless of his oline rankings:

2008*   27   NYG   QB   16   289   479   60.3   3238   21   10   86.4   66.9   PB
2009   28   NYG   QB   16   317   509   62.3   4021   27   14   93.1   71.7   
2010   29   NYG   QB   16   339   539   62.9   4002   31   25   85.3   57.7   
2011*   30   NYG   QB   16   359   589   61   4933   29   16   92.9   64.2   AP CPoY-6, PB
2012*   31   NYG   QB   16   321   536   59.9   3948   26   15   87.2   67   PB
2013   32   NYG   QB   16   317   551   57.5   3818   18   27   69.4   38.6   
2014   33   NYG   QB   16   379   601   63.1   4410   30   14   92.1   61   
2015*   34   NYG   QB   16   387   618   62.6   4432   35   14   93.6   57.9   PB

Age clearly caught up with him during the 2016+ seasons...

Quote from: TONKA56 on May 04, 2024, 06:50:21 AMDon't forget also that in 2011 Victor Cruz exploded onto the scene from nowhere. Defenses had no answer for Cruz, Nicks, and Manningham and had to pick thier poison. Meanwhile Jake Ballard developed a penchant for the amazing clutch catch. 

So I'd say Manning, JPP, and Cruz carried the Giants to the playoffs. 

No doubt, Tonka.  I was merely responding to false-narrative that Brady and Manning required high-performing Olines to be successful.  Cruz was as integral to the Giants' success as JPP, but no player was as important as Eli...what a great year he had!

Quote from: sxdxca38 on May 03, 2024, 10:20:38 AMWhat is more important to the QB than the WR is the offensive line.

Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their careers.

It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense.

Did you bother researching your own question? Clearly not...

Eli Manning
Without Question, Eli's best season was 2011, the only year he received All-Pro votes, was a Pro Bowler, and won a SB.  That year, PFF ranked the NYG Giants Oline #31 (#32 pass protection).  His running game was dead-last...he and JPP carried that team to the playoffs.
 
Here's the exert from PFF:

Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn't just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants' line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.

Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting ... outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.

Worst Player: It's hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.

Tom Brady
It's complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.  In 2014, 15 and 16, the onlines were bad...REAL BAD.  During that span, he continued to play at an AP/MVP level,.

Enjoy the PFF exerts:

2014:
23. New England Patriots

Pass Blocking Ranking: 31st, Run Blocking Ranking: 8th, Penalties Ranking: 19th

Stud: Our second-team All-Pro right tackle Sebastian Vollmer had himself another good year and avoided the injury bug for a change. Bonus.

Dud: The 306 snaps that Jordan Devey managed were brutal to watch at times. Not much of a pass blocker, he didn't exactly light it up in the run game either.

Breakdown: Nate Solder had a bad year by his standards and the interior gave up way too much pressure. They did bloody some rookies, but this group appeared a unit in transition, with the team trying to patch up something just good enough to not harm their skill players too much.

2015:
25. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
Pass-blocking rank: 31st

Run-blocking rank: 12th

Penalties rank: 15th

Stud: Far from perfect, but Josh Kline looked the part when he got on the field.

Dud: Pick your poison here. None were truly atrocious, but most were well below average. None more so than Cameron Fleming, who allowed way too much pressure.

Summary: The good news is that, where they struggle (pass protection), they have a quarterback good enough to overcome it. But it was still so bad that you wonder how much easier (and better) life for Tom Brady could have been with better protection.
 
"I think we've established how atrocious the New England Patriots offensive line performed in 2015. Almost every single player to suit up on the line was hurt for some extended period of time, and the team had to rely on a series of young, inexperienced, and hurt players to protect the best player in the NFL."

According to Pro Football Focus, the Patriots offensive line ranked 31st in the league in pass protection, ahead of only the San Diego Chargers.
 
Key Takeaways:
1. Both the 2015 Pats and 2011 Giants won SBs with PFFs 31st and 32 ranked pass blocking olines
2. Prime Eli Manning was absolutely capable, and DID, overcome terrible oline play
3. Tom Brady was an MVP/AP/SP Winner with the NFLs "31 ranked pass protection
4. Tom Brady was capable of making his Line look better than they were
   2007: Brady was sacked 21 times
   2008: Brady injured, Matt Cassel was sacked 47 times with the same Oline and Coach
   2009: Brady returns and the line reverts to allowing just 16 sacks; funny how that works
5. Over the past few months, I've watched fans incorrectly attribute sacks allowed to the Oline, without giving any consideration to the QB; QBs who process poorly are sacked more...is that really a surprise?

I could provide a lot more data points, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of objective or subjective data will change it.  Regardless, your statement regarding Eli's and Brady's reliance on the oline has objectively been proven false. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 03:33:08 PMMatt,

You are conflating season stats with what @Uncle Mickey called "flashes of brilliance."

You highlighted DJs 'brilliance', while simultaneously discounting Mitch T own brilliance. The latter was an NFC player on the week and pro bowler in 2018. That's the point; a lot of NFL starters flash brilliance, which is why they're 1 of 32 people in the world to do it. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 02:31:17 PMHere were a few more flashes


Jones was the first rookie quarterback in NFL history with 2 games of 300+ passing yards and 4+ touchdown passes – and he had 3 of them.


Jones' 24 touchdown passes led all rookie quarterbacks in 2019 and were the 4th-most by a rookie in a single season in NFL history...Only Baker Mayfield (27 in 2018), Peyton Manning (26 in 1998) and Russell Wilson (26 in 2012) had more.

Jones was the 5th rookie in NFL history to throw 5 touchdown passes in a game...The others were Detroit's Matthew Stafford vs. Cleveland on Nov. 22, 2009; Tampa Bay's Jameis Winston at Philadelphia on Nov. 22, 2015; and Houston's Deshaun Watson vs. Kansas City on Oct. 8, 2017 and Ray Buivid, who played for the Chicago Bears in 1937-38...On Dec. 5, 1937, he threw 5 touchdown passes in the season finale in Wrigley Field vs. the Chicago Cardinals.

Jones joined Dallas' Dak Prescott (twice in 2016) as the only rookie quarterbacks in NFL history with 2 games of at least 300 passing yards, 2 touchdown passes and zero interceptions...The game in Washington was Jones' 3rd with at least 4 touchdown passes...The only other rookies in NFL history to do that were Watson and Pro Football Hall of Famer Fran Tarkenton in 1961.

Passing attempts:
1,872
Passing completions:
1,200
Completion percentage:
64.1%
TD–INT:
72–48
Passing yards:
12,536
Passer rating:
85.5

Career history

* Pro Bowl (2018)
* Third-team All-ACC (2016)

DANIEL JONES
Passing attempts:
1,900
Passing completions:
1,221
Completion percentage:
64.3%
TD–INT:
62–40
Passing yards:
12,512
Passer rating:
85.2
Rushing yards:
1,914
Rushing touchdowns:
13

Career history
* New York Giants (2019–present)
Roster status:
Active


Almost identical numbers, except Mitch has a pro bowl to his name and some college accolades.  DJ has Active player.

I'm not saying Mitch is better, but he had equal 'flashes.' Again, they are no tangible examples in 25 years, and only 1 in 40 years that support your supposition. Why do you think there are Limited, to no tangible examples?

 I do appreciate the time supporting your positions.

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 03, 2024, 01:29:53 PMThanks King! I appreciate all the varying opinions here on the matter. As long as folks make arguments that have some level of substantiation to it, I'm cool with it.


The way I see it is no two QB situations are exactly alike. And the level of ineptitude that DJ has had at OL coaching, OL talent and the WR talent is pretty much unprecedented in my 40 some odd years watching Giant football. With that said, I can draw at least a bit of correlation when I see a cat like Tua or Josh Allen or Geno or when you see a guy like Baker Mayfield get some OL protection and go from not really having a top WR1 to having one and all of a sudden they go from kinda mediocre to franchise looking QBs. Its not a perfect analogy mind you, but there is enough similarity (at least in my perspective) to where I have hope for DJ in a better situation. It's not like none of us have never seen flashes of brilliance from him. Everyone of us has. The kid has thrown some absolute laser throws that crossed the 'i's and that dotted the 't's!

 I just don't think that's an unfair assessment for some to have even though it's taken this 'abnormally' long time to improve the offense around him.

Lastly confidence is a very interesting thing when it comes to a QB. Let's see what a significantly better coached OL combined with a hopefully no doubter elite WR1 in Nabers , a 2nd year Hyatt, a 3rd year Wan'Dale do for DJ.

I think we all can at least agree the support system has a chance to be significantly better in numerous areas for DJ this year.

Call me Matt, my friend.  I think we disagree on flashes of brilliance.  DJ hasn't flashed any more brilliance than Mitch Trubisky or other QBs of their ilk. I have maintained for 3+ years that DJ, like virtually all NFL starters, will benefit from improved supporting talent. However, in 60 games, I have yet to witness any element of his game that gives me any confidence he's a championship-caliber QB. IMO, it's very obvious that he is what he is, and has always been.

Again, I really appreciate your post.  Just because we don't agree on this one subject, I look forward to engaging with you on areas we agree.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 11:51:48 AMQuarterbacks who have been either dumped by their team (and thrived elsewhere, which assumes better support) or just got a lot better

What does this have to do with premise discussed?  To my knowledge, nobody is arguing against the possibility of QB with limited starts getting better.  QBs with less than 30 starts can, and do, improve; however, QBs with more than ~30 Starts do not, certainly not 60 starts. Isn't that obvious by now?

Geno Smith – Prior to 2021, he had just 29 starts.

Baker Mayfield  - His best year was actually his rookie year; so, how does this fit the narrative? The answer is it does not.  The only thing consistent about Mayfield is his inconsistency.  He had three good years, and two bad years. His contract (only $28M guarantee) is a reflection of that reality. 

Kerry Collins - Kerry Collins was a pro bowler by his second season. He struggled because of alcoholism, which is well documented. Again, this has nothing to do with magically becoming better because of an elite WR and/or OL. 

Rich Gannon – The single true example, which I have acknowledged multiple times; still, it's one example in 40 years of football.

Matt Schaub - Schaub did not play his first three seasons and was not afforded an opportunity until 2007, his per game average from that point was fairly consistent.

Jimmy G - Spent his first 3 seasons as a backup, and only completed 2 of 10 seasons without being injured.  He was never going to start over Tom Brady. Once again, his per game averages were fairly consistent from season 3 on, once he got a chance to start.  He is also a backup again.  So, how exactly is he thriving, or had his career fundamentally altered?  He started as a backup and is a backup...

Doug Flutie – Was a backup for his first 6 years before getting frustrated and moving to USFL; when he returned, he only started for 3 of 8 seasons.  I do not view this as thriving or suddenly becoming consistent.

Given the limited and frankly weak examples, which spans 40-years, perhaps it is time to evaluate the narrative that veteran QBs magically become better with coaching, OL or Elite WRs? Are we really going to argue that any of these QBs had their careers fundamentally altered and become top-tier/championship caliber QBs?   

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 03, 2024, 09:07:13 AMTeam fixes OL or gets a dominant WR or both. Incumbent QB's confidence and production (if the QB is truly talented) suddenly goes up and is more consistent. Seen this rodeo play out too many times to assume our QB stinks just yet.

Uncle Mickey,
I absolutely love your posts and appreciate your perspective...you have added a lot of value to this board; however, in this situation, I fundamentally disagree with you.  We have discussed this premise ad nauseam over the last 2 years; when said subject arises, I ask posters to cite just three veteran QBs over the last 3 decades that significantly improved with an elite QB and/or OL.   For DJs situation, in the last 40 years, I cannot think of a single example of a player who played 60+ games that meets your description.  There are examples of very young QBs who benefited from elite WR/OL play, but we should avoid viewing those improvements in a vacuum. For example, on average, QBs make significant leaps between their 2d and 3d seasons; thus, how much of Josh Allen's improvement was due to Diggs vice the organic evolution of a young QB? I am not going to pretend Diggs did not help, but he was hardly the sole reason for Allen's improvement.  In addition, I bet Allen will continue to be good without Diggs, which reinforces the notion he had the goods to begin with, so to speak.   

The only viable examples cited over the last few years are Alex Smith and Geno Smith; however, the former was 'fired' twice after said 'improvement', which begs the question how much did he really improve? Plus, Smith emergence was more about finally staying healthy than being paired with an elite WR.  As @Jess highlighted in a different thread, his per game average was consistent after his second season.  Geno Smith enjoyed just 23 starts before being replaced; from his 25th start on, his per game averages were consistent, including his one start with our Giants.

Talking Heads yap about this premise all the time; however, the data simply doesn't support this notion for vetern QBs.  I'm not saying an Elite OL/WR won't help, but will it fundamentally alter the QBs trajectory (i.e. make them into a championship QB)?  Am I missing a veteran QB who evolved into the player you described? 

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 01, 2024, 07:57:30 AMMatt, 


MVP is reserved for one or two QBs.   You know that.   That is not remotely the same as potentially being in the top ten.  @tonka was right, once DJ enters the conversation, all naunce is lost.

Rich,

When you engage in obfuscation, it's more telling than just answering the question.  H explicitly used the term MVP-caliber; the key work is CALIBER.  Joe Burrow, Josh Allen, Jared Goff, Brock Purdy, etc, etc have never won MVP awards.  Yet, as top 10/5 QBs, they are absolutely considered MVP-caliber QBs and have received MVP votes/consideration.  More than one or two QBs earn MVP votes every year; just like more than one or two player earns Heisman votes.  I can name at least 8 QBs right now who have earned MVP votes and thus are considered MVP-caliber...

I'm shocked I have to define the word caliber to you.... 

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 01, 2024, 07:33:36 AM@H-Town G-Fan

That's quite a damning and harsh attack on my character.  I will confess it angered me, and I was ready to post my usual angry reply.  Only this old dog is learning new tricks.  I took some time to consider what you said and why you said it.  So first I went back to read what you wrote:

I have a few thoughts on your comments:

1)  I believe that everyone here agrees that Jones' "marginal" or "somewhat" improvement will prevent him from continuing to be the dead man walking.

2) I asked you for clarification on that comment, but you declined.

Still, it was the part in bold that really struck me.  As far as I can tell and remember, no one suggested that Jones would have an "MVP-caliber season", not even close.  In fact that seems so far removed from what people were saying, that it reminded me of something I read recently.


What a wildly disingenuous and self-serving statement.

I don't dismiss the possibility I could have missed that quote; perhaps @Trench or one of the other people who liked your post could help you find it.

Rich,

If you're being honest, you will acknowledge several fans predicted DJ was ascending to become a top 10/5 QB; last year, a few even predicted the DJ-led offense was on the verge of 'lethality.' Any QB who ascends into the top 10/5, or leads a lethal offense, is by definition, an MVP caliber QB. I believe that's what H-Town was referring to when he made his statement; at least, that's how I interpreted it. 
 

Quote from: T200 on April 29, 2024, 03:15:42 PMI got one foot in the "Cautiously Optimistic" lane and the other in the "I'll Believe It When I See It" lane.

For me, it all hinges on Bricillo and what he can do with his guys up front. My second area of concern/interest is the running game. I don't picture a drastic fall off in production collectively from previous seasons. I actually think as a group, the production will be significantly better.

Tim, you and @Ed Vette perfectly captured my feelings.  I believe Schoen has drafted well over the last two seasons. However, like every other season, I refuse to view the Giants' roster/progress in a vacuum...it must be evaluated against other teams in our conference.  I'll wait to execute my yearly position-by-position evaluation, but right now I believe the Giants are, at best, the 3rd most talented team in division, and could be on the bottom if Daniels lives up to expectations.  It's also difficult to get excited about another Daniel Jones led offense, which is incredibly boring and frustrating to consume.

Why do said tweets need to be an explicit message from the team?  IMO, they represent nothing more than common sense based on facts. 

It's well known the Giants attempted to trade up for Drake; it's also well known DJs contract has an escape clause after this season. It should also be known DJ hasn't been very good and/or healthy. Thus, do we/Dj need a message from the team that states the obvious?

Quote from: sxdxca38 on April 27, 2024, 08:59:06 PMHi Lenn,

Please see my post to Dave that addresses a lot of your concerns.

To add to my post, I'd like to mention some of the QB's Daniel defeated in 2022, they are the following:

Lamar Jackson
Aaron Rodgers
Trevor Lawrence
Kirk Cousins (should've been twice)

Now he has Nabers, to go along with Wandale and Hyatt.

If they can get the O line to just play average, say ranked 17th-18th, Daniel will have a big year.

Speaking of "from time to time there are some posts that people make that make me say "Did he really just say that?"

You want fans to give credit for DJ, the individual, for beating the QBs/teams you listed, while simultaneously expressing it's unfair to evaluate DJ, the individual, because of a poor supporting cast?  So, he gets individual credit for the wins, but accepts minimal, to no, culpability for the loses? 

Using your logic, Aiden O'Connel is better than Mahomes; after all, the former beat the latter head-to-head this year. 

Surely you can see the fallacy in using Head-to-Head to support your position?  H-Town perfectly captured my reply relating to QBR...

Nobody is stating DJ won't improve with better protection/wrs; however, it's incredibly unlikely he'll develop into the high volume passer required to win NFL championships in the modern era.  I suspect the latter is why the Giants tried to move-up with the Pats; unfortunately, they were desperate for a QB too, which drove the price too high for our Giants.   

Quote from: T200 on April 26, 2024, 01:55:29 PMI have not. He hasn't been on since early March.

Has Slugs/Paul been around?  I hope Dan is well...he's a class act.

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 26, 2024, 01:40:13 PMking: I never fail to read his posts and highly recommend them. They are IMO too few and far between. Bob

I agree, Bob. I also don't get enough of dumpster Dan.