Did Giants Set Up Their O-Line for Struggles?

[brownelvis54]

According to the article, three things the coaches were counting on needed to happen, but they didnt.


1-First thing was the line's health, and because of Thomas injuries and other linemen past injuries this was a foolish decision.


2-Depending on the improvement of Neal, their second-year right tackle. Banking that Neal's struggles as rookie were normal and  naturally he would improve automatically in year 2.

3-Indecisiveness and continuity-  getting the offensive line settled, this is where the coaches had their biggest failure. The Giant never settled on a starting five early enough to allow those players to develop continuity.


https://www.si.com/nfl/giants/big-blue-plus/did-giants-set-up-their-o-line-for-struggles#comments

[brownelvis54]

Other points that she brings up are worth talking about

failure to find a solid swing tackle option and  Ezeudu's inability to beat out veteran Ben Bredeson for the job at LG

[DaveBrown74]

Good article.

I think it's fair to say that, all things considered, the new regime has not done a great job on the line to this point:


(1) Their drafting has not been good. The jury may still be out on JMS, but Neal, Ezeudu, and McKethan all range from disappointing to extremely disappointing.

(2) They have brought in no free agents that have added material value.

(3) Their choice in coach seems pretty poor.


They have also failed to keep these guys healthy, albeit apportioning "blame" for that is tricky. But the line's bad health is part of a larger problem on this team, and as GM, like it or not, Schoen now owns it.


Out of everything above, the Neal pick is probably the worst gaffe. When you consider we could have had Garrett Wilson or Chris Olave with that pick, among others, it's pretty hard to swallow.

[Brooklyn Dave]

Good article.

I think it's fair to say that, all things considered, the new regime has not done a great job on the line to this point:


(1) Their drafting has not been good. The jury may still be out on JMS, but Neal, Ezeudu, and McKethan all range from disappointing to extremely disappointing.

(2) They have brought in no free agents that have added material value.

(3) Their choice in coach seems pretty poor.


They have also failed to keep these guys healthy, albeit apportioning "blame" for that is tricky. But the line's bad health is part of a larger problem on this team, and as GM, like it or not, Schoen now owns it.


Out of everything above, the Neal pick is probably the worst gaffe. When you consider we could have had Garrett Wilson or Chris Olave with that pick, among others, it's pretty hard to swallow.

I can agree with your third point and somewhat with your second although Glowinski and Bredeson were suppose to be at least decent and in 2022 Scheon had no money whatsoever .

As to Neal, and Schmitz. Neal was considered one of the top to 2nd or third best tackle in the draft by virtually every NFL scout. Nick Saban raved about him . He might have been first team All American. Most of us were high fiving when we were thrilled to get him with the 7th pick. 

Schmitz was considered along with Tippmann from Wisconsin the best Center in last years draft.

McKethan was a 5th round pick and Ezeudu  has not really been given a chance at guard , his position at UNC.

As to the," hardest thing to swallow " was trading down for Toney instead of staying put and drafting Micah Parsons. According to sources, Barkley was begging Gettleman to draft Parsons if he was available because he knew what kind of an impact player he was.

[brownelvis54]

Consistency is the biggest issue with me. How can someone grow? If you keep constantly moving them out of position rotating them and what have you. We should've just got four very serviceable journey lineman picked up a rookie, slid that person in whatever position they're naturally gifted at, and slowly keep drafting, rookie offensive lineman but like the article says, let them learn, let them grow, but this whole moving players all around the line doesn't make sense. Never had the chance to develop continuity

[DaveBrown74]

I can agree with your third point and somewhat with your second although Glowinski and Bredeson were suppose to be at least decent and in 2022 Scheon had no money whatsoever .

As to Neal, and Schmitz. Neal was considered one of the top to 2nd or third best tackle in the draft by virtually every NFL scout. Nick Saban raved about him . He might have been first team All American. Most of us were high fiving when we were thrilled to get him with the 7th pick. 

Schmitz was considered along with Tippmann from Wisconsin the best Center in last years draft.

McKethan was a 5th round pick and Ezeudu  has not really been given a chance at guard , his position at UNC.

As to the," hardest thing to swallow " was trading down for Toney instead of staying put and drafting Micah Parsons. According to sources, Barkley was begging Gettleman to draft Parsons if he was available because he knew what kind of an impact player he was.

I am fully aware that Neal was highly touted by the masses, and I myself (a fan) was stoked when we took him. Still, Schoen 100% owns the pick, no matter what the pundits, fans, other scouts, or the player's college coach thought. You don't get to be absolved of a bad pick just because the player was highly touted. Doesn't work that way. And if you got bad advice from your own internal scouts, that's on you too as the GM. If you take a player 7th overall and he sucks, you simply own that and deserve to be criticized for it. Schoen's job is not to robotically follow consensus draft boards. His job is to find the best players he can with the picks he has (or consider moving up or down if there are none in that range that he likes). With the specific case of the 7th overall pick in the 2022 draft, he appears to have failed on that front.

Now.. to be very clear, I am high on Schoen overall. I think he's the right man for the job. I like most of what he has done since he has joined and most of what he has said and how he has handled himself. He hasn't been perfect though, and this is an example. And I think it's fair to say his other O line picks, so far (I know it's still early) have shown any bona fide encouraging signs yet either.

[Philosophers]

Neal finishes his rookie year, drops weight and goes to Willie Anderson OL School for personal one on one training.  Seems to have done the right offseason things. 

So what happened when he started camp?

1) was the face that the starting 5 were not established a bad thing as they did not practice together enough?

2) Did OL practice enough in preseason?  Were the drills wrong?

3) Did Rob Johnson coach differently than what Willie Anderson emphasized resulting in confusion?

4) is it a blocking scheme issue?

What exactly went wrong?

[DaveBrown74]

Neal finishes his rookie year, drops weight and goes to Willie Anderson OL School for personal one on one training.  Seems to have done the right offseason things. 

So what happened when he started camp?

1) was the face that the starting 5 were not established a bad thing as they did not practice together enough?

2) Did OL practice enough in preseason?  Were the drills wrong?

3) Did Rob Johnson coach differently than what Willie Anderson emphasized resulting in confusion?

4) is it a blocking scheme issue?

What exactly went wrong?

Assuming he doesn't suddenly get better, he would not be the first highly touted O lineman to bust. Unfortunately no position is immune to it. So it's not clear to me that anything "went wrong", as if this outcome could have been prevented if someone else did something differently. Maybe he just wasn't a good pick. It happens.

[Doc16LT56]

I am fully aware that Neal was highly touted by the masses, and I myself (a fan) was stoked when we took him. Still, Schoen 100% owns the pick, no matter what the pundits, fans, other scouts, or the player's college coach thought. You don't get to be absolved of a bad pick just because the player was highly touted. Doesn't work that way. And if you got bad advice from your own internal scouts, that's on you too as the GM. If you take a player 7th overall and he sucks, you simply own that and deserve to be criticized for it. Schoen's job is not to robotically follow consensus draft boards. His job is to find the best players he can with the picks he has (or consider moving up or down if there are none in that range that he likes). With the specific case of the 7th overall pick in the 2022 draft, he appears to have failed on that front.

Now.. to be very clear, I am high on Schoen overall. I think he's the right man for the job. I like most of what he has done since he has joined and most of what he has said and how he has handled himself. He hasn't been perfect though, and this is an example. And I think it's fair to say his other O line picks, so far (I know it's still early) have shown any bona fide encouraging signs yet either.

Great post. A GM's job would be easy if he was allowed to just follow the crowd on major decisions and wasn't held accountable for the results of those decisions.

[Doc16LT56]

Neal finishes his rookie year, drops weight and goes to Willie Anderson OL School for personal one on one training.  Seems to have done the right offseason things. 

So what happened when he started camp?

1) was the face that the starting 5 were not established a bad thing as they did not practice together enough?

2) Did OL practice enough in preseason?  Were the drills wrong?

3) Did Rob Johnson coach differently than what Willie Anderson emphasized resulting in confusion?

4) is it a blocking scheme issue?

What exactly went wrong?

Is it possible Neal has physical limitations that prevent him from being an effective right tackle? It seems like you never include player limitations in your analyses. As if it's always someone else's fault.

[Philosophers]

Is it possible Neal has physical limitations that prevent him from being an effective right tackle? It seems like you never include player limitations in your analyses. As if it's always someone else's fault.

Physical limitations are usually the thing most analyzed by teams with draft prospects but you may be right.  May be too slow, doesn't react quickly enough to snap of ball.  He seems to get beaten with speed mostly I've seen him get pushed back more easily than he should given his size.

By the way, where have I not said in other posts abiut a player's limitations?

[Doc16LT56]

By the way, where have I not said in other posts abiut a player's limitations?

Daniel Jones? I apologize if I'm wrong about that.

[Philosophers]

Daniel Jones? I apologize if I'm wrong about that.

I have not been pro or con with DJ.  Wanted him to succeed but think now he is falling short and probably not the answer.

[londonblue]

Continuity and coaching trump talent on the OL.

There have been really great O lines that had maybe one or two obvious stars but were mainly good pros with great work ethic and an ability to work closely as a unit. We have experienced this ourselves.

So maybe Neal is a bust. Maybe injuries have disrupted Ezeudu, McKethan and JMS. Of course talent and luck are both contributing factors but for me it mainly comes down to continuity and coaching, with the latter fostering the former.

The one coaching change I really want to see this off-season is Johnson gone. For me his Bills OL always played below their components and IMO for all the individual frailties we debate endlessly on here we still have enough talent and depth not to be tracking to give up close on 100 sacks.