Do you think after yesterday, coaches might be hesitant to come to NYG?

[T200]

That's a really difficult question to answer.  There are degrees of insubordination, and there are usually circumstances surrounding a given incident.  For me, each case has to be considered on its own in context with an employee's history and value (along with the seriousness of the offense).  There have been cases where I have disciplined employees, and there are others where I ignored it (as I got older, I learned the value of selective vision and hearing).

Somehow, I expected this type of response from you 

There's only one situation at issue: Wink's insubordination. Yes, we know there are different levels to insubordination and there are circumstances where it is warranted. This ain't that. You know enough of the information to side with him. So, my question is simple: do you support his insubordination IN THIS SITUATION?

[MightyGiants]

Somehow, I expected this type of response from you 

There's only one situation at issue: Wink's insubordination. Yes, we know there are different levels to insubordination and there are circumstances where it is warranted. This ain't that. You know enough of the information to side with him. So, my question is simple: do you support his insubordination IN THIS SITUATION?

Cursing me out and storming off-  Considering this was a management-created/inspired incident, if I was going to push Wink to do it, I am doing it to get rid of him (not my style, but you have to call out the incident).

Leaking a story to the media-  That really depends.  We still don't know all the details (because we haven't heard anything from the Wink camp since the Giants pushed him to quit) as to why Wink felt the need to go to the press.   If Wink had repeatedly asked me not to dress him down on the sidelines for millions to see, and I continued to do so, I would sort of blame myself.  The request was reasonable, refusing to grant the request not so much.

Blowing off dinners with all the other coaches-  That is one where it's a management decision.  If I wanted to keep Wink, I would appreciate how he liked to work (mostly just with his defensive team), and I would let him do his thing, as long as he still took input from me as the head coach in things I needed from the defense in a given week.   On the other hand, if a manager is convinced that all his coaching staff needs to be the let's go to dinner together type and a group doing their own thing is unacceptable (or there is a particular way you want your coaches to work), then you let Wink go (in a professional manner) either in season or after the season if he refuses to comply.

[T200]

Cursing me out and storming off-  Considering this was a management-created/inspired incident, if I was going to push Wink to do it, I am doing it to get rid of him (not my style, but you have to call out the incident).

Leaking a story to the media-  That really depends.  We still don't know all the details (because we haven't heard anything from the Wink camp since the Giants pushed him to quit) as to why Wink felt the need to go to the press.   If Wink had repeatedly asked me not to dress him down on the sidelines for millions to see, and I continued to do so, I would sort of blame myself.  The request was reasonable, refusing to grant the request not so much.

Blowing off dinners with all the other coaches-  That is one where it's a management decision.  If I wanted to keep Wink, I would appreciate how he liked to work (mostly just with his defensive team), and I would let him do his thing, as long as he still took input from me as the head coach in things I needed from the defense in a given week.   On the other hand, if a manager is convinced that all his coaching staff needs to be the let's go to dinner together type and a group doing their own thing is unacceptable (or there is a particular way you want your coaches to work), then you let Wink go (in a professional manner) either in season or after the season if he refuses to comply.

     

[AZGiantFan]

That's a really difficult question to answer.  There are degrees of insubordination, and there are usually circumstances surrounding a given incident.  For me, each case has to be considered on its own in context with an employee's history and value (along with the seriousness of the offense).  There have been cases where I have disciplined employees, and there are others where I ignored it (as I got older, I learned the value of selective vision and hearing).

For my money, his value in leading a bottom tiered defense is nowhere near enough to warrant putting up with any level of insubordination, let alone what sounds like his pretty extreme level of insubordination.  It's bad when you have cliques among the players, but far worse when you have cliques among the coaches.

[Dumpster Dan]

Been thinking about this as Daboll is interviewing for a DC today

Why would anyone consider a position with the Giants if Daboll is on such a hot seat according to a couple (if that many)_ writers as well as countless fans that he may be fired if not before the season certainly a possibility during the season if the Giants get off to the expected losing season next year projected by many??


Dumpster Dan

[DaveBrown74]

Been thinking about this as Daboll is interviewing for a DC today

Why would anyone consider a position with the Giants if Daboll is on such a hot seat according to a couple (if that many)_ writers as well as countless fans that he may be fired if not before the season certainly a possibility during the season if the Giants get off to the expected losing season next year projected by many??


Dumpster Dan

Good question. I guess the answer would be that they have limited opportunities elsewhere. And they may feel that the unit that's the biggest liability on the Giants is the offense, so even if Daboll gets fired after a bad season in 2024, it may not be viewed by others as their fault.

But it's a fair question for sure. If I were a DC candidate with multiple options, I would want to go somewhere more stable like Dallas.

[expatriot]

Didn't Wink have similar issues with John Harbaugh?

[T200]

Didn't Wink have similar issues with John Harbaugh?

We don't know for sure. We do know that it was reported as a mutual decision by both parties to move on from each other. It was also reported that Harbaugh wanted to institute some defensive philosophy changes prior to their split.

Daboll also called for defensive changes, although it may not have been as diplomatic as Harbaugh's request/suggestions.

[WheresDayne]

But it's a fair question for sure. If I were a DC candidate with multiple options, I would want to go somewhere more stable like Dallas.

You think Dallas is more stable?  They haven't been to an NFC Championship, let alone a Super Bowl, in over 2 decades, they have an owner who is also the GM and the have a coach that is perennially on the hot seat and, by most accounts, should have been let go a couple years ago.  I'll give you that they have more talent but not stability.

[MightyGiants]

I will speak in general terms.  I have to think that these are the things that make a coordinator (and to a lesser degree, a position coach) job more attractive.

1)  You are coming to work with a new head coach

2)  You get to call your own plays

3)  You are coaching on the opposite side of the ball than the HC's background (less interference and full credit for success)

4)  You are being hired to replace a coordinator who got a head coaching gig


Now, with the Daboll situation, you have an HC going into his 3rd season, having had a very disappointing season and having fired or forced out 2 or 3 (depending on what happens with Kafka) his coordinators.

Regardless of how you assign blame in the drama that came out of 1925 Giants Way, objectively Daboll's job seems less secure than your average HC at this point.  While there are more coaches wanting to advance than their are jobs, so you can always fill a spot, those that are most in demand and can afford to be pickier may opt for a more secure situation.

[uconnjack8]

You think Dallas is more stable?  They haven't been to an NFC Championship, let alone a Super Bowl, in over 2 decades, they have an owner who is also the GM and the have a coach that is perennially on the hot seat and, by most accounts, should have been let go a couple years ago.  I'll give you that they have more talent but not stability.

I don't see where advancing deep into the playoffs has much to do with stability.  The Steelers haven't been to a championship game in almost a decade, but they are one of the most stable organizations out there.

McCarthy is only the 2nd coach the team has had in the last decade.  The Giants are on coach number 5 in that time frame.  That's what I think of when I think stability. 

Whether or not fans think someone should be fired is moot.

[WheresDayne]

All good points Uconn, and i agree.  But where we either pick the wrong HC's or dump them too early, Dallas seems to hold onto them too long.  Garrett and McCarthy are both good examples.  I guess i'm just biased in my dislike for Dallas and i'd hate to work for JJ.  So maybe they're more stable but they're also as dysfunctional.

[uconnjack8]

I see Dallas as underachieving in the playoffs, but their average of 12 wins/season for the last 3 years is something I would love to see for the Giants. 

Personally I wouldn't want to work for Jerrah either, but his drafting has been pretty solid for about a decade or so (since he passed on Manziel and took Zack Martin instead.

I was skeptical that this stuff was going to turn people away from the Giants (I am always skeptical of that type of stuff).  The way the DC interview process is going has made me rethink my stance. 

Were the Giants interested in a guy like Rivera?  Did he say no thanks?  Or was he not on the list of potential interviewees.  Either way I question it.  If he wasn't on the short list, personally I think he should have been.  If he didn't want to come to NY it would be interesting to know why.  It could be he wants a place that has players in place and is closer to a championship.  Or it could be that the word in the league among coaches is to stay away from NY if you have a choice. 

Some of the Rivera stuff is just my own personal bias as seeing him as a great candidate and a guy with a great reputation around the league. 

Regardless, I am starting to get less skeptical of the rumors and more skeptical of what's going on inside the FO.

[RelaxTension]

Good question. I guess the answer would be that they have limited opportunities elsewhere. And they may feel that the unit that's the biggest liability on the Giants is the offense, so even if Daboll gets fired after a bad season in 2024, it may not be viewed by others as their fault.

But it's a fair question for sure. If I were a DC candidate with multiple options, I would want to go somewhere more stable like Dallas.

So it's bad to go to the Giants because the HC might get fired before his contract is up but it's better to go to Dallas who has a coach working with only one year left on his contract.
I think you used the wrong example in your comment.