Big Blue Huddle

Excellent debate. It shows how dug in everyone is towards their views and that is ok. I think the point being made is a QB can in fact win with a bad Oline or receivers - ( BUT maybe not consistently is the key)...but it can be done and has been done.

Another point on having a great o-line which I think is overlooked is the fact nobody had had better Olines and receivers than Dallas for a sustained period, yet they never win. I think that is very telling to the point of how much more important the QB is.

He needs to show he can produce in the 2 minute drill both before halftime and especially at the end of the games. He has been sporadic at best in that area.

Lastly, he must win a playoff game this year and he has to beat Dallas and Philadelphia at least once each.

1. Stay injury free
2. Stop walking into sacks (ala Seattle game per PFF podcast).
3. Boom it downfield where applicable - trust the line and the guy to get open
4. Stop seeing ghosts
5. Restructure that contract - those future cap hits are brutal.

I don't have a number of yards or amount ot TDs but be in the top 10-13 of those categories.

That's off the top of my head and if he hits those, I'll be delighted. It means we've done okay.

 

I know there have been a lot of Daniel Jones threads recently, but I don't recall one that has actually attempted to speculate on the threshold of what he needs to do to avoid being cut after this season, which we know his contract is designed to allow them to do if they so choose.

What exactly do you think he needs to do in 2024 (at minimum) to avoid being gone after this season?

Quote from: kingm56 on Today at 03:39:09 AM"If you want to say that Brady playing behind a top five offensive line, for the majority of his career had absolutely no impact on his performance, well then be my guest."

REBUTTAL:  Where did I, or anyone, state Brady and Manning did not benefit from playing behind top tier OLs?  You're reframing your own premise for reasons only you know.  What I stated, and objectively proved is both QBs were ALSO successful playing behind poor-to-terrible OLs. Thus, they did NOT always benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense."  Yes, Eli and Brady played behind some very good OLs, and benefited as all QBs do; however, that doesn't invalidate thier numerous successes playing behind bottom 10 OLs; in fact, both had AP/MVP-type seasons playing with the NFLs' literal worst Olines.. 

"And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it."

REBUTTAL:  As I accurately predicted, and stated, your mind is already made up and no amount of objective data will sway you. So, why waste time providing a cogent, time-consuming response? I also reject the notion I only provided one years worth of data; in response to Rich, I provided 9 years worth of data to support my supposition, in addition to providing 3 years worth of Patriot data.  However, since you brought it up, I will do so again, this time with aggregate PFF OL rankings."

"So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning."

REBUTTAL:   You remind me of Blue Fire; any opposing views and/or rebuttals were classified as "faulty." Do you automatically assume anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and/or employs fault logic? I knew from past research that your statement was factually inaccurate and did my best provide a response predicated on facts.

"In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham."

REBUTTAL:   This is factually incorrect; in response to Tonka, I explicitly stated "Cruz was as integral to the Giants' 2011 success as JPP."  Besides, you're moving the goal post, presumably because you were unaware of the Giants' 2011 OL ranking. You explicitly stated "Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their career" and "It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defensee.""  BTW, I suspect the majority of fans would avoid classifying Manningham (good) or Nicks(stints as very good) as 'elite', especially the former.  How did both do without Manning?  You're also torpedoing your own assertion: "What is more important to the QB than the WR is the offensive line."; to explain the 2011 season, you're suggesting it was byproduct of WRs talent.  What about Mannings other 3 Pro Bowl seasons when you played with bottom 10 Olines?  In fact, his two best seasons were 2011 and 2015, when he was paired with bottom 3 pass-protection.  As you highlighted, he did enjoy a solid WR trio in 2011 and superstar WR in 2015 (OBJ).  So, based on your input, it appears the reverse is true (i.e. wrs are more important than the OL).  At a minimum, we should discuss this assertion as it appears it has some merit.  I digress though as WR(s) weren't our focus; you introduced them after learning about the Giants' 2011 OL rankings

BL: Your premise that Manning and Brady's successes were predicated on "elite OLs" during "thier prime" is objectively false. 

Eli's aggregate Oline Rankings:

2008    11  (Unk) * Made the Pro Bowl
2009    6  (12 Pass Blocking)
2010    13 (17 Pass Blocking)
2011    31 (31 Pass Blocking) * Made the Pro Bowl/MVP and AP votes
2012   11 (21 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2013    28 (31 Pass Blocking)
2014    20 (28 Pass Blocking)
2015    20 (28 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2016   20 (24 Pass Blocking)

2008*   27   16   289   479   60.3   3238   21   10   86.4   66.9   PB
2009    28    16   317   509   62.3   4021   27   14   93.1   71.7   
2010    29    16   339   539   62.9   4002   31   25   85.3   57.7   
2011*   30   16   359   589   61   4933   29   16   92.9   64.2   AP CPoY-6, PB
2012*   31   16   321   536   59.9   3948   26   15   87.2   67   PB
2013    32    16   317   551   57.5   3818   18   27   69.4   38.6   
2014    33    16   379   601   63.1   4410   30   14   92.1   61   
2015*   34   16   387   618   62.6   4432   35   14   93.6   57.9   PB
2016    35   16   377   598   63.0   4027   26   16 86.0   45.7
   
Note – I did not include 2017 through 2019 as the OP explicitly stated "in the prime of their careers."  On average, QBs not named Brady start to regress around their mid-30s; this was true for all of Manning's 2004 draft contemporaries (e.g. Big Ben and Rivers).

Key Takeaways:
1. With the exception of 2013, Eli's output remained consistent
2. Eli's statistical best two seasons (2011 and 2015) occurred when paired with bottom 3 Pass Blocking lines; he did have Cruz, Nix and OBJ
3. Eli's best season was 2011, playing behind the NFL's worst OL
4. Eli's worst season was 2013, playing behind the NFL's 28th OL
5. Eli's 4 PB seasons occurred playing behind the 11, 31, 11 and 20 rated lines.
6. 3 of 4 of his PB seasons were accomplished playing with bottom 10 pass blocking line; 2 of 4 were bottom 3 (31, 21, and  28)
7. During his Prime, Eli's aggregate OL ranking was #18
8. During his Prime, Eli's average pass protection ranking was #24
9. On average, Eli did NOT benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense"; in his prime, the exact opposite was true....he had a bottom 7 pass blocking oline
10 The same is true for Tom Brady; in his prime, he remained consistent, independent of his OL rankings.  His 2015 MVP season was accomplished behind the NFL's worst pass-blocking line.

The data is remarkably clear; Brady and Manning outputs were NOT wholly predicated on thier OL performances.  Both literally prove the opposite of the premise introduced; each remained consistent during MULTIPLE seasons with poor Olines in thier prime. In short, it's possible for QBs to be HIGHLY successful (e.g. MVPs/APs) playing behind terrible olines.   Looking at the data, can we at least agree on that point?  Can we agree Eli and Brady enjoyed MULTPLE Pro Bowl/SB seasons playing behind bottom 10 olines? If true, can we also agree that it's possible for Top-Tier QBs to be successful without elite, or even good OLs?   I will agree with the notion that 36 through 38 year old Manning needed a plus offensive line to be successful, as the data supports that conclusion; however, Prime Eli did not.

IMO, it's a disservice to Eli's greatness to perpetuate a false-narrative that his success was predicted on an elite (or even good) Oline; the fact is, for the majority of his prime, his Oline stunk.  From a more macro perspective, it's unnecessary to perpetuate these false claims to support the notion that QB failures are a byproduct of poor oline play.  Prime Eli quite literally proves the opposite. 

Here are my answers to your objections and I will do so in civil way, all I ask is if you can please do the same to me, thank you.

Here is your question to me "Where did I, or anyone, state Brady and Manning did not benefit from playing behind top tier OLs?  You're reframing your own premise for reasons only you know."

Here is what you specifically said "Tom Brady, it's a complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career."

Here are what the facts show regarding Tom Brady's offensive line rankings during his career.

Bucs O line

2022 ranked 4th
2021 ranked 2nd
2020 ranked 5th

Patriots O line

2019 ranked 10th
2018 ranked 4th
2017 ranked 3rd
2016 ranked 10th
2015 ranked 25th
2014 ranked 23rd
2013 ranked 14th
2012 ranked 2nd
2011 ranked 3rd
2010 ranked 3rd
2009 ranked 3rd
2008 ranked 1st
2007 ranked 1st
2006 ranked 3rd

From 2001-2004 Tom Brady also had LT Matt Light who made 3 pro bowls, Dan Koppen who was a pro bowl center, and from 2005-2013 had Logan Mankins. He wasn't just New England's best offensive lineman, there was no better lineman in the NFL over that nine-season stretch in which he made six Pro Bowls.

For twelve seasons Brady played behind a top five offensive line.

For three seasons played behind a top 15 offensive line.

For two seasons played behind a top 25 offensive line.

You said it was a complete myth that Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.

What I just showed is that it wasn't a myth, it was the complete opposite. For the majority of his career he has been playing behind an elite level offensive line.

If you want to say that for a year or two Eli Manning and Tom Brady were able to produce at a high level under a bad offensive line, I'm willing to concede that point, but they both needed star WR's and TE's to make that happen.

However, the premise that Eli Manning and Tom Brady consistently played behind poor offensive lines, I respectfully disagree.

If you consider DJ's best years were behind the 17th and 18th ranked O lines, and his worst years the 30th, 31st, and 30th, then he has always been behind an atrocious O line.

I also consider Eli's prime years to be right out of the gate starting in 2005 when he was a young man, and during those first four years he played behind a top five offensive line, which I shared in my previous posts.

My fundamental point is this, Eli Manning nor Tom Brady would not have been able to sustain years of high-level production in the passing game without a good offensive line, nothing more, nothing less.

2013 and 2017 regarding Eli Manning prove my point.

In any event you can have the last word, as I really have nothing more to say.

I'm going to relax for the rest of the day.

I disagree with PFN's ranking.

I'm expecting a bounce back year from Daniel Jones. He will be pushing the ball farther, because he learned what Taylor did during his tenure.

Nabers will be explosive, the O line has been improved especially in pass protection, and Theo will be a nice addition.

Offensive production will improve this year, and DJ will have a good year.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 04, 2024, 08:28:31 PMYou asked everyone to "Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their careers. It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense."

All king did was give you an example of both players in their prime with horrible lines still thriving. He is one of the most knowledgeable and respectful people that post here.

We are all adults here, you've got to stop thinking everyone is attacking you with their responses. Just because someone replies either correcting you or informing you of something doesn't mean it's hostile, it's a NFL football forum, not a kids table.

You claimed king was cherry picking data when infact he was simply answering your question.

There are a ton of Qbs that you can list that played behind horrible olines and still produced at the highest levels.

Matt Stafford
Patrick Mahomes
Tony Romo
Andrew Luck
Peyton Manning
Deshaun Watson
Russell Wilson

These are just a few off the top of my head without doing research.

Eli Manning had a great line for about 4-5 of his 16 years, he spent 3/4th of his career behind a bad one.

Eli played from 2005 through 2012 on average with a top five to top ten offensive line.

In 2013 he played behind the 28th ranked offensive line, and here were his numbers.

57% - 18 TD 27 Int 69.4 RTG 38.6 QBR

Are you implying that his offensive line had no impact on his performance?

And secondly to say that 75% of his career he played behind a bad one is simply not true.

The numbers show otherwise.

I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me, but I do have a problem with someone disagreeing with me and throwing in put down remarks, that is what I have a problem with, and the guidelines to this forum show we are not supposed to be doing that.

Also go look at the lines Tom Brady played behind, I uploaded most of his years, top 5 to top 10 O lines for over twelve seasons.

Per The Athletic:

Will Filip Chytil be the Rangers' X-factor?

The Rangers need Artemi Panarin playing at his regular season MVP-caliber level. New York will be in good shape offensively if that line featuring Panarin, Vincent Trocheck and Alexis Lafrenière can lead the way at five-on-five, in addition to Mika Zibanejad's line scoring at a steady clip.

Those are the obvious keys. Looking beyond that, Filip Chytil emerges as New York's wild card.

Chytil hasn't played since Nov. 2 because of concussion issues. He has, however, been a full-contact practice participant with the Rangers recently. The 24-year-old Czech center broke out as a bona fide top-six player last season with 22 goals and 45 points in 72 games. Those totals were especially impressive considering his limited power-play usage.

He looked electric at the start of this season centering Panarin and Lafrenière. Of course, expectations need to be tempered if he returns as he'll have missed so much time and would likely slot in a third-line role rather than playing with Panarin because of how well Trocheck is performing. But if Chytil is healthy and even 70 percent of the player he was last season, the Rangers will get a massive secondary scoring boost.

Chytil drives play with his smooth skating, above-average frame and highly competitive style. He can be a lethal attacker off the rush. Chytil scored four goals in seven games on the third line when the Rangers played the Hurricanes in 2022. Will he return and play another big part in this rematch?

>>>>

Interesting points. It would bump Rempe to the press box and slide Wennberg to centre the 4th line.

Here is another part of the interview.  I would suggest what Gettleman witnessed is how little the NFL thought of him.  If Gettleman's experience, knowledge, and opinions were good, I think he would still have NFL people seeking him out.  If he had made true friends in the NFL I suspect this wouldn't have happened as well.


"You know, really and truly, I miss the people. It's kind of fascinating," he said. "People told me it would take me at least a year to get settled, and they were absolutely right on the money. It's amazing how the emails, texts, and calls stop. It's like you died."


https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2024/05/05/ex-new-york-giants-gm-dave-gettleman-goes-off-on-media-clowns/?taid=66375e97e0be9300019dd73f&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=twitter