Discuss
https://x.com/NFL_DovKleiman/status/1783659653571780662
Whatever.
Pointless pick when we don't have the position that actually matters.
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So much for Slayton's leverage...lol.
Very happy with the pick.
Quote from: Just_jimmy on April 25, 2024, 08:55:08 PMPointless pick when we don't have the position that actually matters.
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JJ McCarthy doesn't fix that for at least a year, if at all.
I liked odunze better but I'll wait 3 years.
Somebody has to get him the ball. Jones, Lock, whoever.
Let's go. No excuses.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on April 25, 2024, 08:56:00 PMJJ McCarthy doesn't fix that for at least a year, if at all.
It's going to have to get fixed eventually.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on April 25, 2024, 08:56:00 PMJJ McCarthy doesn't fix that for at least a year, if at all.
The current situation will never fix it. A WR won't either, no matter how good the kid is.
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Top-3 talent in this draft. Once the 3 QBs went, you can't pass on rare talent like this.
OBJ really didn't help the Giants win. Good player but wrong thinking.
What will the excuses for Jones be now?
Shiny hood ornament without an engine or the frame 😂 🤷🏼�♂️ Malik is going to be a stud though but most likely be a diva by year 2
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 25, 2024, 08:57:43 PMIt's going to have to get fixed eventually.
Sure, but that's where they found themselves: outside the top-3 QBs, tried to move up to get one, and when they couldn't do it they stood pat and took a top playmaking talent (who would be a top WR in most drafts). Moving back, if possible, was dangerous in a thin class. They need difference makers, and Nabers could be just that.
How is this different than Saquon pick? RB needs an OL. WR needs a QB.
Love Nabers. Loved Rome too. I think as far as least likely to bust it was one of those guys. Having said that...without a QB will it really matter? JJ grew on me as the process went on so I would have been fine with him too. I just hope the Giants can end up with Penix or Nix too.
Quote from: Just_jimmy on April 25, 2024, 08:58:06 PMThe current situation will never fix it. A WR won't either, no matter how good the kid is.
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Taking the fourth QB at the sixth overall, a guy who wasn't relied on to win by his college team, to prove a point is horrible, myopic team building in my opinion.
I said in a post yesterday that as much as I want a new QB, I don't want to draft one the front office is just lukewarm on, just so we can draft a QB. I'm strongly opposed to that, and it seems Schoen was too. I would have loved to see them move up to get Maye, but I don't think it was possible, or at least not without overpaying so badly that it would really make it impossible to build around him.
Considering the above, I'm happy with the pick. Nabers is an elite, big time talent at a key position. The big three QBs were gone. Schoen made the right move here.
I absolutely love the pick, this was the guy I was hoping they would draft, and they did.
Improve the offensive line, and Daniel Jones is going to have a good year, and the Giants will begin to win again.
Great start to the draft.
Great addition, a must have. And the Giants Mock Draft consensus pick all year since Day One. So, no surprise; none at all. Now, they need to hit big on at least more 3 guys for it to become a real success.
Cheers!
I like it. If we had gone McCarthy that would have been QB4 (or maybe even QB5 considering Penix just got drafted above him)- at #6, with actual legit #1 WRs on the board you had to go WR. No brainer.
I wanted Rome above Nabers but am glad they got a #1 WR.
Just think the weapons we have next year if we have to picka QB ?
Look what the bears did for C Williams
Now we fix our line
We have 2 very good WRs and a Top WR
Put a rookie QB behind there
He is good to.go
https://x.com/Dan_Salomone/status/1783666827211472977
https://x.com/NYPost_Schwartz/status/1783666790960075021
Really good player....but we need A LOT OF THEM.
Could've collected a Kings RANSOM from the Vikings or the Broncos.
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Quote from: ralphpal1 on April 25, 2024, 09:12:34 PMJust think the weapons we have next year if we have to picka QB ?
Look what the bears did for C Williams
Now we fix our line
We have 2 very good WRs and a Top WR
Put a rookie QB behind there
He is good to.go
Easier said than done. If they are to be in position to take a QB next year that means suffering through a miserable season this year. Are we all prepared to sit through another 3 win season in order to get that QB? Because if you're not then you should have been hoping for JJ or I guess Penix.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 25, 2024, 09:19:41 PMhttps://x.com/NYPost_Schwartz/status/1783666790960075021
Eyes popping out of his skull excited.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on April 25, 2024, 09:21:32 PMEyes popping out of his skull excited.
Of course he's excited! Everybody expected (hoped) they were about to take his replacement.
https://x.com/NYPost_Schwartz/status/1783667925359927533
https://x.com/BobbySkinner_/status/1783663742649053334
https://x.com/Dan_Salomone/status/1783667296466018570
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 25, 2024, 09:19:41 PMhttps://x.com/NYPost_Schwartz/status/1783666790960075021
He's fired up we didn't go QB in round 1 lol.
https://x.com/Patricia_Traina/status/1783667723278454859
Someone already said it, but this is like picking Saquon all over again.
I'm going back to sleep. Wake me when we have a quarterback to build around.
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on April 25, 2024, 09:21:17 PMReally good player....but we need A LOT OF THEM.
Could've collected a Kings RANSOM from the Vikings or the Broncos.
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Obviously not being that Penix went before JJ, and Minn only needed to trade a 4th and 5th.
Quote from: AYM on April 25, 2024, 09:23:57 PMHe's fired up we didn't go QB in round 1 lol.
He can be as fired up as he wants it still takes talent to succeed.
What will the excuses be now?
Round 1 • Pick 6 (6)
SEE ALL
Nabers possesses the competitive fire and instincts teams look for in an elite playmaker. The LSU wideout is a big-time playmaker who can make the game easier for Daniel Jones with his route-running and yards-after-the-catch ability, turning short passes into big gains for Big Blue. -- by Bucky Brooks
Pre-Draft Analysis
Nabers is LSU's all-time leader in receptions (189) and receiving yards (3,003). He's an explosive route runner who is a nightmare matchup out of the slot. He separates from man coverage and excels at working the deep middle against zone looks. Nabers is outstanding after the catch, too. He's an instinctive open-field runner who reaches his top-end speed in a flash and can break tackles. He has the wheels to take the top off the coverage, and he tracks the deep ball well. -- Steve Muench
Matt Miller's pro comp: Jaylen Waddle
Read: Full scouting report on Nabers
Post-Draft Analysis
Nabers brings an electrifying presence to the Giants. New York showed that they believe in Daniel Jones under center and got him a true WR1. Nabers led the country in receiving yards per game last season (120.7), and he can play in the slot -- where he caught 1,009 yards last season (fourth-most in the FBS) -- or outside for the Giants. He will team up with Jalin Hyatt and Wan'Dale Robinson to give this team a young trio to build around. -- Jordan Reid
Overall value: Bargain. Marvin Harrison Jr. is the top receiver on the board, but Nabers had the same grade and is third overall for me. The value and the Giants' need at the position make this an outstanding pick. -- Muench
Quote from: Stringer Bell on April 25, 2024, 09:25:53 PMObviously not being that Penix went before JJ, and Minn only needed to trade a 4th and 5th.
The Giants picked 6th, there was no way Minn knew it would unfold that way at that point. No doubt there was an offer sitting there. IMHO
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Love the pick, gotta grab that type of talent with a 6 overall. Yeah we need someone to get him the ball and I think we will Even if it's not this draft.
JJ at 6 would have been a mistake
This was by far the safest pick for the tean...Give Jones a top WR and hopefully, an improved line, and then lets judge him
It was the best option. Nabers is a supreme talent on a team that needs great potential players everywhere.
They couldn't get a top line qb..so they acted sensibly. Next year is another opportunity to find the future at qb. It wasn't going to happen without digging a hole now and into next year. JJ wasn't the answer.
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on April 25, 2024, 09:31:19 PMThe Giants picked 6th, there was no way Minn knew it would unfold that way at that point. No doubt there was an offer sitting there. IMHO
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And based on how things played out, it's much more likely there was no "king's ransom" offer. The evidence doesn't back your opinion.
Quote from: LennG on April 25, 2024, 09:29:25 PMHe can be as fired up as he wants it still takes talent to succeed.
What will the excuses be now?
Probably still offensive line. Or lack of running game production.
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 25, 2024, 09:49:09 PMProbably still offensive line. Or lack of running game production.
They'll find something. They always do.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 25, 2024, 09:29:32 PMRound 1 • Pick 6 (6)
SEE ALL
Nabers possesses the competitive fire and instincts teams look for in an elite playmaker. The LSU wideout is a big-time playmaker who can make the game easier for Daniel Jones with his route-running and yards-after-the-catch ability, turning short passes into big gains for Big Blue. -- by Bucky Brooks
I'm not certain that Jones thrives in a short pass offence (e.g. was Waller the right fit?), but Nabers has a ton of talent.
https://x.com/DanSchneierNFL/status/1783675655818825836
Quote from: Gmo11 on April 25, 2024, 09:49:52 PMThey'll find something. They always do.
"Well this is the first time that Daniel Jones has really had time to go through his progressions. So he needs to start developing those skills. To look off the safety and make those reads. It's going to take time."
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 25, 2024, 08:57:43 PMIt's going to have to get fixed eventually.
We've said that about the OL for more than 10 years and it hasn't happened.
So we can say hope springs eternal.
Or we can say expecting it to get better, in each case, is the triumph of hope over experience.
Quote from: Gmo11 on April 25, 2024, 09:49:52 PMThey'll find something. They always do.
This is silly. I have been 100% on the Jones isn't it bandwagon for two years and love the Nabers pick. There were several services that had Nabers in the top three and one had him as the best player in the draft. I know we have to move on from Jones, but if we can fix the line the next quarterback is gonna have some tools to work with. We were never going to get the rebuilding done this offseason.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 25, 2024, 10:01:04 PMWe've said that about the OL for more than 10 years and it hasn't happened.
So we can say hope springs eternal.
Or we can say expecting it to get better, in each case, is the triumph of hope over experience.
What I meant was eventually the issue is going to demand attention and action. Not that it will just fix itself if we wait long enough.
https://x.com/SNYGiants/status/1783678914868437127
Looking at what prior gm's and scouts say...Outside of the qb's, Nabers would be their #1 pick.....
99% of Giants..Another disappointment !!!
https://x.com/SNYGiants/status/1783680118881202393
Quote from: DJN on April 25, 2024, 10:08:20 PMLooking at what prior gm's and scouts say...Outside of the qb's, Nabers would be their #1 pick.....
99% of Giants..Another disappointment !!!
That's a way bit of an exageration. I see plenty more of us in favor of this pick.
I was watching the draft at The Star in Dallas. Cowboy fans weren't happy with the Giants pick. Haha
Here's hoping Jones does...something this year with these guys.
Quote from: LennG on April 25, 2024, 09:29:25 PMHe can be as fired up as he wants it still takes talent to succeed.
What will the excuses be now?
Lenn,
In 2022 Daniel Jones had a 93.2 RTG ranked 13th, a 60.2 QBR ranked 6th, and the Giants went 10-7-1 and won a playoff game.
May I ask did you forget about this?
Quote from: Gmo11 on April 25, 2024, 09:49:52 PMThey'll find something. They always do.
GMO,
In 2022 Daniel Jones posted a 93.2 RTG ranked 13th, a 60.2 QBR ranked 6th, and the Giants went 10-7-1, and won a playoff game.
Where were the excuses?
The Giants just added an elite #1 WR, and if they can upgrade the O line to perform at least average, do you think Daniel Jones can have a bounce back year?
or do you think he and the team will be worse?
Quote from: sxdxca38 on April 25, 2024, 11:07:07 PMLenn,
In 2022 Daniel Jones had a 93.2 RTG ranked 13th, a 60.2 QBR ranked 6th, and the Giants went 10-7-1 and won a playoff game.
May I ask did you forget about this?
Respectfully...that was not a great season for a QB in today's NFL. It was barely good and only by comparison from what they had seen from him prior to that. And in fact, that team wasn't really talented enough to make the playoffs they just had a LOT of lucky bounces along the way that got them extra wins. Had those bounces gone the other way, (which they very much did this past season) and Jones still has those same stats but without the playoff appearance/win, there's not a doubt in my mind he would have been replaced last offseason.
Quote from: Gmo11 on April 25, 2024, 11:15:05 PMRespectfully...that was not a great season for a QB in today's NFL. It was barely good and only by comparison from what they had seen from him prior to that. And in fact, that team wasn't really talented enough to make the playoffs they just had a LOT of lucky bounces along the way that got them extra wins. Had those bounces gone the other way, (which they very much did this past season) and Jones still has those same stats but without the playoff appearance/win, there's not a doubt in my mind he would have been replaced last offseason.
May I share something?
Daniel Jones has played a total of five seasons in the NFL.
In the two seasons he had a decent offensive line, ranked 18th and 17th, he had his best years.
In 2022 when the O line performed about average, he posted 3,900 total yards which included his rushing stats, and a QBR of 60.2 which ranked 6th, and a 92.3 RTG which ranked 13th.
I hear that you are saying the Giants weren't a good team in 2022, but the fact that he posted those kinds of numbers on a bad team, and helped them make the playoffs, what would happen if he was actually on a good team?
For instance, the Giants have added an elite #1 WR, and if they upgrade the O line from 30th to say around 15th, do you think Daniel Jones' stats will improve? and will the Giants begin to win again?
Quote from: sxdxca38 on April 25, 2024, 11:45:49 PMMay I share something?
Daniel Jones has played a total of five seasons in the NFL.
In the two seasons he had a decent offensive line, ranked 18th and 17th, he had his best years.
In 2022 when the O line performed about average, he posted 3,900 total yards which included his rushing stats, and a QBR of 60.2 which ranked 6th, and a 92.3 RTG which ranked 13th.
I hear that you are saying the Giants weren't a good team in 2022, but the fact that he posted those kinds of numbers on a bad team, and helped them make the playoffs, what would happen if he was actually on a good team?
For instance, the Giants have added an elite #1 WR, and if they upgrade the O line from 30th to say around 15th, do you think Daniel Jones' stats will improve? and will the Giants begin to win again?
I appreciate your argument. Problem is even when Jones had time he still panicked. He isn't the answer I wish he was. But he isn't - 5 yrs is enough. Did u see the Redskkns QB draft pick list?
Quote from: Trench on April 25, 2024, 11:59:18 PMI appreciate your argument. Problem is even when Jones had time he still panicked. He isn't the answer I wish he was. But he isn't - 5 yrs is enough. Did u see the Redskkns QB draft pick list?
I saw the Redskins drafted Daniels, I liked him.
Are you referring to something else?
Please explain? thanks
Quote from: sxdxca38 on April 25, 2024, 11:07:07 PMLenn,
In 2022 Daniel Jones had a 93.2 RTG ranked 13th, a 60.2 QBR ranked 6th, and the Giants went 10-7-1 and won a playoff game.
May I ask did you forget about this?
Great, where did the Giants rank in passing yards, passing TDs, and completions? You know, stats that actually matter to WRs.
@LennG is spot on here.
I love the Nabers pick; after the top 3 QBs came off the board, this was the best option. Still, the notion Nabers is going to magically evaluate DJ to a top-tier/high-volume passer that's required to win in the modern NFL seems far-fetched.
I doubt a knowledgeable and venerable poster like Lenn "forgot about 2022." He's capable of analyzing numbers outside an utter vacuum; instead, preferring a macro view. DJ had a good season relative to his past performances; he did NOT have a good season relative to his contemporaries. His high rating and QBR were byproducts of being overly conservative, coupled with a really good rushing performance/yards; however, when viewed from a macro perspective (i.e. considering all the data), it was nothing special. After 60 games, I think we all have a good idea of DJ's capabilities...
I understand the pick given his talent and his ability to separate, which Daboll prizes, though I have concerns over his maturity. He is very young and has had some issues. It remains to be seen if we have enough leadership at QB and in the wider locker room to get the best out of him or if he will become a handful down the line. Odunze was the slightly lower ceiling but safer character pick. We will see how it goes. We have to hope DJ or Lock can get him and the rest of a talented but inexperienced WR group the ball!
https://x.com/PatMcAfeeShow/status/1783661708302561443
Quote from: sxdxca38 on April 25, 2024, 11:45:49 PMMay I share something?
Daniel Jones has played a total of five seasons in the NFL.
In the two seasons he had a decent offensive line, ranked 18th and 17th, he had his best years.
In 2022 when the O line performed about average, he posted 3,900 total yards which included his rushing stats, and a QBR of 60.2 which ranked 6th, and a 92.3 RTG which ranked 13th.
I hear that you are saying the Giants weren't a good team in 2022, but the fact that he posted those kinds of numbers on a bad team, and helped them make the playoffs, what would happen if he was actually on a good team?
For instance, the Giants have added an elite #1 WR, and if they upgrade the O line from 30th to say around 15th, do you think Daniel Jones' stats will improve? and will the Giants begin to win again?
This sounds like a conversation between Mara and Schoen.
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Quote from: kingm56 on April 26, 2024, 12:32:00 AMGreat, where did the Giants rank in passing yards, passing TDs, and completions? You know, stats that actually matter to WRs. @LennG is spot on here.
I love the Nabers pick; after the top 3 QBs came off the board, this was the best option. Still, the notion Nabers is going to magically evaluate DJ to a top-tier/high-volume passer that's required to win in the modern NFL seems far-fetched.
I doubt a knowledgeable and venerable poster like Lenn "forgot about 2022." He's capable of analyzing numbers outside an utter vacuum; instead, preferring a macro view. DJ had a good season relative to his past performances; he did NOT have a good season relative to his contemporaries. His high rating and QBR were byproducts of being overly conservative, coupled with a really good rushing performance/yards; however, when viewed from a macro perspective (i.e. considering all the data), it was nothing special. After 60 games, I think we all have a good idea of DJ's capabilities...
Hi,
No one said Nabers is going to magically transform Daniel Jones into an elite passer, or become an elite QB.
Here is what I have said to others and I'll say the same thing to you.
Daniel Jones has played a total of five seasons in the NFL.
In the two seasons he had a decent offensive line, ranked 18th and 17th, he had his best years.
In 2022 when the O line performed about average, he posted 3,900 total yards which included his rushing stats, and a QBR of 60.2 which ranked 6th, and a 92.3 RTG which ranked 13th.
I hear that you are saying the Giants weren't a good team in 2022, but the fact that he posted those kinds of numbers on a bad team, and helped them make the playoffs, what would happen if he was actually on a good team?
For instance, the Giants have added an elite #1 WR, and if they upgrade the O line from 30th to say around 15th, do you think Daniel Jones' stats will improve? and will the Giants begin to win again?
Quote from: sxdxca38 on April 26, 2024, 09:11:32 AMHi,
No one said Nabers is going to magically transform Daniel Jones into an elite passer, or become an elite QB.
Here is what I have said to others and I'll say the same thing to you.
Daniel Jones has played a total of five seasons in the NFL.
In the two seasons he had a decent offensive line, ranked 18th and 17th, he had his best years.
In 2022 when the O line performed about average, he posted 3,900 total yards which included his rushing stats, and a QBR of 60.2 which ranked 6th, and a 92.3 RTG which ranked 13th.
I hear that you are saying the Giants weren't a good team in 2022, but the fact that he posted those kinds of numbers on a bad team, and helped them make the playoffs, what would happen if he was actually on a good team?
For instance, the Giants have added an elite #1 WR, and if they upgrade the O line from 30th to say around 15th, do you think Daniel Jones' stats will improve? and will the Giants begin to win again?
If the goal is to win 8 games instead of the usual 5 or 6 then yes this is a great situation. And Jones can do that with all these playmakers around him carrying the load.
If the goal is to win multiple playoff games and/or a super bowl they're going to need a better QB and they'll need him quick before Nabers becomes very expensive.
Quote from: Gmo11 on April 26, 2024, 09:17:50 AMIf the goal is to win 8 games instead of the usual 5 or 6 then yes this is a great situation. And Jones can do that with all these playmakers around him carrying the load.
If the goal is to win multiple playoff games and/or a super bowl they're going to need a better QB and they'll need him quick before Nabers becomes very expensive.
Perciesly the point! It should be clear by now DJ is not going to become the high volume passer necessary to win Championships. Nabers doesn't change that paradigm.
Quote from: Gmo11 on April 26, 2024, 09:17:50 AMIf the goal is to win 8 games instead of the usual 5 or 6 then yes this is a great situation. And Jones can do that with all these playmakers around him carrying the load.
If the goal is to win multiple playoff games and/or a super bowl they're going to need a better QB and they'll need him quick before Nabers becomes very expensive.
Perhaps we can win just enough games to put drafting a franchise quarterback out of reach?
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 26, 2024, 10:04:24 AMPerhaps we can win just enough games to put drafting a franchise quarterback out of reach?
I believe that's referred to as QB hell, Tonka.
Looking back on it, Nabers was always the pick. Sure, they flirted and teased with the potential QBs, but it wasn't going to happen. And if Nabers wasn't there, they would have taken Odunze. No doubt. They invested too much money in Jones to move on from him and not at least try to get their money's worth. They hope that providing him with a weapon like Nabers they can at least recoup some of that money in terms of wins. The Giants are a predictable, conservative franchise. They always have been, usually for the worse. That doesn't mean it won't work out this time. It might very well. But the track record with the Maras, father and son, has been, with the exception of when "outsiders" took control, pretty dismal. I'm old enough to have lived through so many of them and why I remain cynical. But time will tell on this pick and the choices they have made going forward.
Quote from: Gmo11 on April 26, 2024, 09:17:50 AMIf the goal is to win 8 games instead of the usual 5 or 6 then yes this is a great situation. And Jones can do that with all these playmakers around him carrying the load.
If the goal is to win multiple playoff games and/or a super bowl they're going to need a better QB and they'll need him quick before Nabers becomes very expensive.
Hi GMO,
The Giants and DJ went 10-7-1 in 2022 and won a playoff game without Nabers.
They've added an excellent edge in Brian Burns, and now an elite WR.
Have you seen their upcoming schedule?
I think they can win 10-11 games this year going something like 10-7 or 11-6.
And once there in the playoffs anything can happen.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on April 26, 2024, 12:04:08 AMI saw the Redskins drafted Daniels, I liked him.
Are you referring to something else?
Please explain? thanks
I was referring to a a snapshot they put up on tv pertaining to how many QBs Washington has picked in the past 10 years or so. There were a bunch of them. My point is Jones has had 5 years already as compared to Washington picking QB after QB in the draft.
We know what Jones is. I've heard excuse after excuse for the guy. Time is up. He now has a stud WR and all sorts of other weapons AND his Oline is pretty good. He has to learn from his mistakes - which by evidence of his continuing to take hits instead of throwing the ball away (or sliding) proves it.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on April 26, 2024, 09:11:32 AMIn the two seasons he had a decent offensive line, ranked 18th and 17th, he had his best years.
Hi SXD,
I have seen you make this statement several times recently.
How would you say "his best years" compared to the rest of the league's QBs? Because that is frankly all that matters. Every QB who has played multiple seasons had his own "best years." All that matters is how they compared to the rest of the league. And if one is going to do an honest, objective comparison, one needs to look at the numbers holistically and not just pull out a few stats while omitting other key metrics.
I think Jones' best year was 2022. And that was hardly a great year. It was fine, but far from spectacular. At best it was league-average overall. I understand his efficiency metrics were above average, but his totals were way below average. The efficiency numbers were boosted by it being a simplistic offense that had him as a short pass-throwing game manager with the offense based on the running game. He was not asked to do much throwing the ball, and he didn't do much throwing the ball. He didn't make a lot of mistakes, so that is good, but it's relatively easy to not make a lot of mistakes when you're not being asked to make many risky throws.
His rookie season was worse than 2022 in my opinion. He turned the ball over way too much to be remotely effective. I get that some fans like to pretend fumbles don't matter and just want to isolate the other stats and brush the fumbles under the rug, but no serious/objective evaluator would ever do that.
All his other years were very, very poor in my opinion.
Just my two cents.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on April 26, 2024, 07:45:38 PMHi GMO,
The Giants and DJ went 10-7-1 in 2022 and won a playoff game without Nabers.
They've added an excellent edge in Brian Burns, and now an elite WR.
Have you seen their upcoming schedule?
I think they can win 10-11 games this year going something like 10-7 or 11-6.
And once there in the playoffs anything can happen.
I think many people also explained how I feel and the last post by Dave said it best. Yes, Jones had a decent year compared to many of the terrible years.
I'm sorry but fans (and I don't mean you specifically) keep telling us how Jones lacks certain things for a QB to be successful. True, but how many QBs in the league have a perfect system, great OL great WRs, and a good running game.
Anyone can succeed in those conditions. What separates the winners from the losers is that the good ones can overcome obstacles and still succeed. Jones is just not in that category. Everything needs to be perfect for him to have success and that is still not what the Giants offer. He simply cannot overcome certain things that other good QBs can. We have given him plenty of things now, so overall, I hope you are right, but I seriously doubt it. Jones is what Jones is, an average QB who can make certain throws in the right circumstances but when he is asked to do more, he cannot. That is why he succeeded in the years you mentioned. He wasn't asked to do more than he was able to, we got a year of lucky ounces and breaks and we won. His numbers, as far as league wise, were average at best, but compared to his numbers from other years, he was successful. Nabors might get him a few more yards and completions, but that is about all.
Quote from: Trench on April 27, 2024, 12:06:34 PMI was referring to a a snapshot they put up on tv pertaining to how many QBs Washington has picked in the past 10 years or so. There were a bunch of them. My point is Jones has had 5 years already as compared to Washington picking QB after QB in the draft.
We know what Jones is. I've heard excuse after excuse for the guy. Time is up. He now has a stud WR and all sorts of other weapons AND his Oline is pretty good. He has to learn from his mistakes - which by evidence of his continuing to take hits instead of throwing the ball away (or sliding) proves it.
His OL is NOT pretty good until they demonstrate it on the field.
Quote from: LennG on April 27, 2024, 12:44:04 PMI think many people also explained how I feel and the last post by Dave said it best. Yes, Jones had a decent year compared to many of the terrible years.
I'm sorry but fans (and I don't mean you specifically) keep telling us how Jones lacks certain things for a QB to be successful. True, but how many QBs in the league have a perfect system, great OL great WRs, and a good running game.
Anyone can succeed in those conditions. What separates the winners from the losers is that the good ones can overcome obstacles and still succeed. Jones is just not in that category. Everything needs to be perfect for him to have success and that is still not what the Giants offer. He simply cannot overcome certain things that other good QBs can. We have given him plenty of things now, so overall, I hope you are right, but I seriously doubt it. Jones is what Jones is, an average QB who can make certain throws in the right circumstances but when he is asked to do more, he cannot. That is why he succeeded in the years you mentioned. He wasn't asked to do more than he was able to, we got a year of lucky ounces and breaks and we won. His numbers, as far as league wise, were average at best, but compared to his numbers from other years, he was successful. Nabors might get him a few more yards and completions, but that is about all.
I hear all the time what's with the Jones hate. First of all, there is no hate. It's a judgement on his play, that's all. I don't understand the "love." I've been watching him and football for over five decades. I have not seen Jones do what great QBs do, overcome odds and carry the team to victory. It has never happened. Well, okay, in the fourth quarter against a pitiful Arizona team last year. And yes, he had a very good game against a Minnesota team whose defense was abysmal. Beyond that. Nothing. I listed the rankings I felt of the current QBs. Jones was number 21. Maybe Nabers and a better offensive line will bump him up to 15 or 16. That's the ceiling folks. He's never shown anything beyond that. I know why they didn't draft a QB. I know this franchise and how it works. They knew New England was never going to trade out of #3 so posturing with those picks was just that. And when they passed on McCarthy they never were serious about getting a QB. They signed Jones to big money. They want to get something out of that if they can. I get it. But we fans have to wait now until 2025 or beyond for hope. At least that's how I feel.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 27, 2024, 12:22:54 PMHi SXD,
I have seen you make this statement several times recently.
How would you say "his best years" compared to the rest of the league's QBs? Because that is frankly all that matters. Every QB who has played multiple seasons had his own "best years." All that matters is how they compared to the rest of the league. And if one is going to do an honest, objective comparison, one needs to look at the numbers holistically and not just pull out a few stats while omitting other key metrics.
I think Jones' best year was 2022. And that was hardly a great year. It was fine, but far from spectacular. At best it was league-average overall. I understand his efficiency metrics were above average, but his totals were way below average. The efficiency numbers were boosted by it being a simplistic offense that had him as a short pass-throwing game manager with the offense based on the running game. He was not asked to do much throwing the ball, and he didn't do much throwing the ball. He didn't make a lot of mistakes, so that is good, but it's relatively easy to not make a lot of mistakes when you're not being asked to make many risky throws.
His rookie season was worse than 2022 in my opinion. He turned the ball over way too much to be remotely effective. I get that some fans like to pretend fumbles don't matter and just want to isolate the other stats and brush the fumbles under the rug, but no serious/objective evaluator would ever do that.
All his other years were very, very poor in my opinion.
Just my two cents.
Hi Dave,
I always appreciate your posts and I wanted to say thank you for addressing me in a civil and respectful manner, that means a lot.
I would like to now answer your question regarding how Daniel Jones faired compared to his peers in 2022, which in my opinion was his best year.
In 2022 he only played in 16 games, because they had already secured a playoff spot, so they sat him for game 17, that needs to be factored in, as it affected his numbers.
This isn't an exhaustive list, but I did include the most important criteria, they are the following:
He threw for 3,200 Yards which ranked him 15th
His 67.2% comp ranked him 6th
His 15 passing TD's ranked him 21st
His 5 Int ranked him 2nd
He was sacked 44 times which ranked him 5th most
His 62.9 QBR ranked him 6th
His 92.9 RTG ranked him 13th
He had 6 fumbles which means 21 QB's were worse.
He rushed for over 700 Yards and 7 TD's.
If we combine his total yardage of passing and rushing we get these numbers:
3,900 Yards 67.2 % 22 TD 5 Int 92.9 RTG
This then ranks him based on total yardage as 11th in the league.
Hope that helps in some way.
Quote from: LennG on April 27, 2024, 12:44:04 PMI think many people also explained how I feel and the last post by Dave said it best. Yes, Jones had a decent year compared to many of the terrible years.
I'm sorry but fans (and I don't mean you specifically) keep telling us how Jones lacks certain things for a QB to be successful. True, but how many QBs in the league have a perfect system, great OL great WRs, and a good running game.
Anyone can succeed in those conditions. What separates the winners from the losers is that the good ones can overcome obstacles and still succeed. Jones is just not in that category. Everything needs to be perfect for him to have success and that is still not what the Giants offer. He simply cannot overcome certain things that other good QBs can. We have given him plenty of things now, so overall, I hope you are right, but I seriously doubt it. Jones is what Jones is, an average QB who can make certain throws in the right circumstances but when he is asked to do more, he cannot. That is why he succeeded in the years you mentioned. He wasn't asked to do more than he was able to, we got a year of lucky ounces and breaks and we won. His numbers, as far as league wise, were average at best, but compared to his numbers from other years, he was successful. Nabors might get him a few more yards and completions, but that is about all.
Hi Lenn,
Please see my post to Dave that addresses a lot of your concerns.
To add to my post, I'd like to mention some of the QB's Daniel defeated in 2022, they are the following:
Lamar Jackson
Aaron Rodgers
Trevor Lawrence
Kirk Cousins (should've been twice)
Now he has Nabers, to go along with Wandale and Hyatt.
If they can get the O line to just play average, say ranked 17th-18th, Daniel will have a big year.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on April 27, 2024, 08:59:06 PMHi Lenn,
Please see my post to Dave that addresses a lot of your concerns.
To add to my post, I'd like to mention some of the QB's Daniel defeated in 2022, they are the following:
Lamar Jackson
Aaron Rodgers
Trevor Lawrence
Kirk Cousins (should've been twice)
Now he has Nabers, to go along with Wandale and Hyatt.
If they can get the O line to just play average, say ranked 17th-18th, Daniel will have a big year.
You do remember that Jones didn't throw a pass for the last 17 minutes of the Jacksonville game even when we were down right?
Or that he only threw for 173 yards against the Ravens, and it took an epic meltdown from Jackson plus a great rushing and defensive game from guys not named Jones to win that game.
Barkley was the number 1 back in the league through the first half of 2022, but but our qb that barely averaged 180 yards and 1 td a game was the driving force..
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 27, 2024, 09:20:38 PMYou do remember that Jones didn't throw a pass for the last 17 minutes of the Jacksonville game even when we were down right?
Or that he only threw for 173 yards against the Ravens, and it took an epic meltdown from Jackson plus a great rushing and defensive game from guys not named Jones to win that game.
Barkley was the number 1 back in the league through the first half of 2022, but but our qb that barely averaged 180 yards and 1 td a game was the driving force..
Hi,
I don't really have any issues with you, and I'm sure you're probably a decent to nice person in real life, but you've made it pretty clear over the years that you really don't like Daniel Jones, as you are entitled to your opinion.
But,
With that being the case, from time to time there are some posts that people make that make me say "Did he really just say that?", and this just happens to be one of those posts that I've highlighted in bold up above.
Daniel Jones against the Jacksonville Jaguars won "
Offensive Player of the Week" in 2022.
Would you like to know why?
He was 19/30, passed for over 200 yards, 1 TD 0 Int, 94.0 RTG 88.2 QBR
He also rushed 11 times for over 107 yards averaging 9.7 yard per carry, including 1 rushing TD.
His go-ahead rushing TD with 5:31 remaining put the Giants ahead for the win, 23-17.
And he was the first player in Giants history to pass for over 200 yards, and rush for over 100 in the same game.
Equaling over 300 yards of total offense.
He outperformed Trevor Lawrence in that game.
So, I'll ask, are you sure you want to hold your position?
Here is the link down below to show you he won offensive player of the week against Jacksonville.
Enjoy
Daniel Jones (https://www.giants.com/news/daniel-jones-named-nfc-offensive-player-of-the-week-7-jaguars#:~:text=EAST%20RUTHERFORD%2C%20N.J.%20%E2%80%93%20Daniel%20Jones,Offensive%20Player%20of%20the%20Week.)
Quote from: sxdxca38 on April 28, 2024, 12:30:21 AMHi,
I don't really have any issues with you, and I'm sure you're probably a decent to nice person in real life, but you've made it pretty clear over the years that you really don't like Daniel Jones, as you are entitled to your opinion.
But,
With that being the case, from time to time there are some posts that people make that make me say "Did he really just say that?", and this just happens to be one of those posts that I've highlighted in bold up above.
Daniel Jones against the Jacksonville Jaguars won "Offensive Player of the Week" in 2022.
Would you like to know why?
He was 19/30, passed for over 200 yards, 1 TD 0 Int, 94.0 RTG 88.2 QBR
He also rushed 11 times for over 107 yards averaging 9.7 yard per carry, including 1 rushing TD.
His go-ahead rushing TD with 5:31 remaining put the Giants ahead for the win, 23-17.
And he was the first player in Giants history to pass for over 200 yards, and rush for over 100 in the same game.
Equaling over 300 yards of total offense.
He outperformed Trevor Lawrence in that game.
So, I'll ask, are you sure you want to hold your position?
Here is the link down below to show you he won offensive player of the week against Jacksonville.
Enjoy
Daniel Jones (https://www.giants.com/news/daniel-jones-named-nfc-offensive-player-of-the-week-7-jaguars#:~:text=EAST%20RUTHERFORD%2C%20N.J.%20%E2%80%93%20Daniel%20Jones,Offensive%20Player%20of%20the%20Week.)
I know I haven't been a part of this conversation, but it's unclear to me in reading this whether you understand that QBR (the ESPN stat) is not a pure passing metric, but rather holistic. You've mentioned it with reference to Jones's passing stats, but then said he "
also" contributed through rushing. ESPN QBR
already incorporates the rushing productivity of the QB. That is how its calculated. Jones's running performance against Jacksonville was the 8th highest running EPA of any QB game that year and his best from that campaign (https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr/_/view/weekly/season/2022/seasontype/2/sort/cwepaRuns/dir/desc). By contrast, Jones didn't log even one of the top 50 passing performances by EPA in 2022 (his generally accepted best season) (https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr/_/view/weekly/season/2022/seasontype/2/sort/cwepaPassesCondensed/dir/desc). He's a running QB who happens to throw the ball from time to time. But we already know that the Giants don't have unlimited faith in this backwards skillset because of the way they structured his contract and attempted to go after his replacement this last draft, offering significant value to move up just three spots.
As to the "Player of the Week" mention, it's a relatively meaningless thing. Jameis Winston won Player of the Week twice in the NFC (https://www.buccaneers.com/news/jameis-winston-bags-second-player-of-the-week-award-nfc-week-4-2019). No one is clamoring for him to be a franchise quarterback. Rather, it shows that talented (but utlimately flawed QBs) are capable of putting together (relatively) impressive showings. That is not surprising given they are NFL QBs. The real test is not simply flashing every so often, but performing at a high level consistently.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on April 27, 2024, 08:59:06 PMHi Lenn,
Please see my post to Dave that addresses a lot of your concerns.
To add to my post, I'd like to mention some of the QB's Daniel defeated in 2022, they are the following:
Lamar Jackson
Aaron Rodgers
Trevor Lawrence
Kirk Cousins (should've been twice)
Now he has Nabers, to go along with Wandale and Hyatt.
If they can get the O line to just play average, say ranked 17th-18th, Daniel will have a big year.
Speaking of "from time to time there are some posts that people make that make me say "Did he really just say that?"
You want fans to give credit for DJ, the individual, for beating the QBs/teams you listed, while simultaneously expressing it's unfair to evaluate DJ, the individual, because of a poor supporting cast? So, he gets individual credit for the wins, but accepts minimal, to no, culpability for the loses?
Using your logic, Aiden O'Connel is better than Mahomes; after all, the former beat the latter head-to-head this year.
Surely you can see the fallacy in using Head-to-Head to support your position? H-Town perfectly captured my reply relating to QBR...
Nobody is stating DJ won't improve with better protection/wrs; however, it's incredibly unlikely he'll develop into the high volume passer required to win NFL championships in the modern era. I suspect the latter is why the Giants tried to move-up with the Pats; unfortunately, they were desperate for a QB too, which drove the price too high for our Giants.
An effort made to get Maye. Clearly they did not have a high enough opinion on McCarthy or other options such as Nix, Penix. Given that, you get yourself what appears to be an incredibly talented WR who can turn routine plays into big gains. Sets us up for when we are able to address QB and gives Jones another no-excuses season.
Quote from: sjones71 on April 28, 2024, 07:49:13 AMAn effort made to get Maye. Clearly they did not have a high enough opinion on McCarthy or other options such as Nix, Penix. Given that, you get yourself what appears to be an incredibly talented WR who can turn routine plays into big gains. Sets us up for when we are able to address QB and gives Jones another no-excuses season.
That's it in a nutshell: the Giants needed an elite receiver on their offense, and now they have one. The QB issue is a separate issue
Quote from: sxdxca38 on April 28, 2024, 12:30:21 AMHi,
I don't really have any issues with you, and I'm sure you're probably a decent to nice person in real life, but you've made it pretty clear over the years that you really don't like Daniel Jones, as you are entitled to your opinion.
But,
With that being the case, from time to time there are some posts that people make that make me say "Did he really just say that?", and this just happens to be one of those posts that I've highlighted in bold up above.
Daniel Jones against the Jacksonville Jaguars won "Offensive Player of the Week" in 2022.
Would you like to know why?
He was 19/30, passed for over 200 yards, 1 TD 0 Int, 94.0 RTG 88.2 QBR
He also rushed 11 times for over 107 yards averaging 9.7 yard per carry, including 1 rushing TD.
His go-ahead rushing TD with 5:31 remaining put the Giants ahead for the win, 23-17.
And he was the first player in Giants history to pass for over 200 yards, and rush for over 100 in the same game.
Equaling over 300 yards of total offense.
He outperformed Trevor Lawrence in that game.
So, I'll ask, are you sure you want to hold your position?
Here is the link down below to show you he won offensive player of the week against Jacksonville.
Enjoy
Daniel Jones (https://www.giants.com/news/daniel-jones-named-nfc-offensive-player-of-the-week-7-jaguars#:~:text=EAST%20RUTHERFORD%2C%20N.J.%20%E2%80%93%20Daniel%20Jones,Offensive%20Player%20of%20the%20Week.)
You have an amazing way of just ignoring everything someone says and putting your own facts out there for interpretation. You acted like Jones beat all these Qbs when we all watched those games and know otherwise. I doubt if you polled the entire forum you'd be hard pressed to find multiple people that think Jones was the driving force behind our wins in 2022.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on April 28, 2024, 01:19:15 AMI know I haven't been a part of this conversation, but it's unclear to me in reading this whether you understand that QBR (the ESPN stat) is not a pure passing metric, but rather holistic. You've mentioned it with reference to Jones's passing stats, but then said he "also" contributed through rushing. ESPN QBR already incorporates the rushing productivity of the QB. That is how its calculated. Jones's running performance against Jacksonville was the 8th highest running EPA of any QB game that year and his best from that campaign (https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr/_/view/weekly/season/2022/seasontype/2/sort/cwepaRuns/dir/desc). By contrast, Jones didn't log even one of the top 50 passing performances by EPA in 2022 (his generally accepted best season) (https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr/_/view/weekly/season/2022/seasontype/2/sort/cwepaPassesCondensed/dir/desc). He's a running QB who happens to throw the ball from time to time. But we already know that the Giants don't have unlimited faith in this backwards skillset because of the way they structured his contract and attempted to go after his replacement this last draft, offering significant value to move up just three spots.
As to the "Player of the Week" mention, it's a relatively meaningless thing. Jameis Winston won Player of the Week twice in the NFC (https://www.buccaneers.com/news/jameis-winston-bags-second-player-of-the-week-award-nfc-week-4-2019). No one is clamoring for him to be a franchise quarterback. Rather, it shows that talented (but utlimately flawed QBs) are capable of putting together (relatively) impressive showings. That is not surprising given they are NFL QBs. The real test is not simply flashing every so often, but performing at a high level consistently.
I've highlighted the part of your statement I'd like to address.
Daniel Jones combined stats for the whole year in 2022.
3,900 Yards 22 TD 5 INT 92.9 RTG 60.2 QBR
There is your consistency.
Enjoy!
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 28, 2024, 10:03:18 AMYou have an amazing way of just ignoring everything someone says and putting your own facts out there for interpretation. You acted like Jones beat all these Qbs when we all watched those games and know otherwise. I doubt if you polled the entire forum you'd be hard pressed to find multiple people that think Jones was the driving force behind our wins in 2022.
Hi,
I will just leave you with this.
You literally criticized Daniel Jones against Jacksonville in 2022, when he won "Offensive Player of the Week", accumulating over 300 yards of total offense, outperforming and beating Trevor Lawrence in Florida for not completing a pass in the last quarter of the game.
Just let that sink in for a minute.
Meanwhile he accumulated three huge runs of 15 yards, 24 yards, and 9 yards during that same period, including the final go-ahead rushing TD.
Are you sure I'm the one ignoring the facts?
Or could your biased feelings against DJ be blinding you to seeing the situation objectively?
I will now enjoy the rest of my night.
Quote from: kingm56 on April 28, 2024, 06:27:32 AMSpeaking of "from time to time there are some posts that people make that make me say "Did he really just say that?"
You want fans to give credit for DJ, the individual, for beating the QBs/teams you listed, while simultaneously expressing it's unfair to evaluate DJ, the individual, because of a poor supporting cast? So, he gets individual credit for the wins, but accepts minimal, to no, culpability for the loses?
Using your logic, Aiden O'Connel is better than Mahomes; after all, the former beat the latter head-to-head this year.
Surely you can see the fallacy in using Head-to-Head to support your position? H-Town perfectly captured my reply relating to QBR...
Nobody is stating DJ won't improve with better protection/wrs; however, it's incredibly unlikely he'll develop into the high volume passer required to win NFL championships in the modern era. I suspect the latter is why the Giants tried to move-up with the Pats; unfortunately, they were desperate for a QB too, which drove the price too high for our Giants.
Hi,
It seems now its three against one, no problem the more the merrier.
I've highlighted the part I'd like to address.
What I've maintained and shared all along is that in 2022 the Giants offensive line was ranked 18th. When Daniel has a decent offensive line he produces, including being "Offensive player of the week" against Jacksonville, accumulating over 300 yards of total offense.
In 2020, 2021, and 2023 his offensive line was ranked 30th, 31st, and 30th respectively, the main reason for his worst years.
No one here is saying Daniel Jones will become an elite QB, but you don't need an elite QB to win a Superbowl. You just need one that is good enough, with a good too great team around him, and if they get hot in the playoffs anything can happen.
And now they have an elite WR to pair him up with, a new o line coach, and some upgrades along the line, so let's see what happens.
I'm now going to relax for the evening, take care.
DJ has never had a WR who even broke 1000 yards. He's played with the likes of Sills, Richie James, a broken down Shep, and older Tate, and Slayton. Hardly a who's who of WRs. We all probably can agree too he's never had an OL that would categorize as average let alone above the average mark.
I'm not ready to say DJ can be a great QB consistently , I really wanted Drake Maye, but those who are objective must also recognize he has had very little approaching even average around him either.
I'm geniunely curious what he looks like with Malik Nabers, a 2nd year Hyatt, a 3rd year Wan'Dale, Slayton now as a 3rd or 4th option and a properly coached OL.
We of the Big Blue Folk Lore have no choice but to be at least a wee bit hopeful or why even bother watching next year?
For those who feel this argument is still worthwhile, I'd love to know Jones career record against the NFC East and the individual teams in our division.
I also know he rarely has won games in last 2 minutes of games. And he hasn't shown an ability to score before halftime. Like Al Davis said it's all about winning and it's about performance under pressure which he hasn't proven consistently
Quote from: Trench on April 29, 2024, 07:56:00 AMFor those who feel this argument is still worthwhile, I'd love to know Jones career record against the NFC East and the individual teams in our division.
8-12-1 with 5 wins against Washington.
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/daniel-jones-career-record-against-nfc-east
From the highlight reels Nabers reminds me of Sterling Sharpe
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on April 29, 2024, 08:21:49 AM8-12-1 with 5 wins against Washington.
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/daniel-jones-career-record-against-nfc-east
Thank you for the stats.
That type record is just not going to cut it. This year he has to record at least one win against every team in the NFC East. If he were to sweep either Dallas or Philly that would be something to talk about in terms of his progress
Quote from: Trench on April 29, 2024, 11:05:48 AMThank you for the stats.
That type record is just not going to cut it. This year he has to record at least one win against every team in the NFC East. If he were to sweep either Dallas or Philly that would be something to talk about in terms of his progress
Its not a one man game, it's a team game.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 29, 2024, 01:14:06 PMIts not a one man game, it's a team game.
The Giants are showing remarkable patience. 5 years is a long time. Our backups played MUCH better in terms of moving the ball this year than our 40 million dollar QB did.
Quote from: Trench on April 29, 2024, 01:18:08 PMThe Giants are showing remarkable patience. 5 years is a long time. Our backups played MUCH better in terms of moving the ball this year than our 40 million dollar QB did.
You keep saying that and it keeps being debunked because the rest of the team wasn't the same when DJ played and when the back-ups played. For example the return of Andrew Thomas. As I said, it is not a one man game, it's a team game. And there is a big difference between having AT and not having AT.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 29, 2024, 01:24:32 PMYou keep saying that and it keeps being debunked because the rest of the team wasn't the same when DJ played and when the back-ups played. For example the return of Andrew Thomas. As I said, it is not a one man game, it's a team game. And there is a big difference between having AT and not having AT.
Team was the same. They were the 2023 NY Giants. Thomas missing didn't make a difference because our backup QBs were sacked as much (if not more) than Jones was. Yet they moved the ball and even got a few wins. We also beat Philadelphia, Green Bay and almost beat the Rams and Philadelphia a second time. With backups.