https://x.com/bigblueview/status/1711420832679932105?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ
https://x.com/bigblueview/status/1711421457832567240?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ
Jones had a near-elite 87.1
Tyrod had a goat-level 48.7
Pass blocking grades
Marcus McKethan AND Jalen Mayfield- 0.0
Joshua Ezeudu- 25.4
Evan Neal- 29.0
Ben Bredeson- 31.8
Matt Peart- 40.0
Jaylon Thomas in two snaps, managed to drag down his default 60.0 to a 26.4
I agree with the Offense Grades but not the Safety Grades. DJ didn't play poorly, he played well all things considering.
Think I am seeing why if you use PFF grades as the Bible and factual (when it's not) that you would come to the conclusion that Jones is usually great and it's all on the supporting cast.
So our worst 6 players were the lineman?
Shocking..
Last week the Giants' passing was 30th, their pass blocking 31st, and their receiving 32nd
This week the Giants' passing is now 29th, their pass blocking is 32nd and their receiving is 31st
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 09, 2023, 01:12:17 PMThink I am seeing why if you use PFF grades as the Bible and factual (when it's not) that you would come to the conclusion that Jones is usually great and it's all on the supporting cast.
Greg,
You are entitled to (and certainly exercising your right) to come here every day and bash Daniel Jones. I do draw the line at your use of false strawman claims that I "treat PFF like a Bible." I have repeatedly and consistently spoken of PFF's shortcomings. Jones, by virtue of being a Giants player, is fair game in terms of being your target, I am not.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 09, 2023, 01:20:59 PMLast week the Giants' passing was 30th, their pass blocking 31st, and their receiving 32nd
This week the Giants' passing is now 29th, their pass blocking is 32nd and their receiving is 31st
Greg,
You are entitled to (and certainly exercising your right) to come here every day and bash Daniel Jones. I do draw the line at your use of false strawman claims that I "treat PFF like a Bible." I have repeatedly and consistently spoken of PFF's shortcomings. Jones, by virtue of being a Giants player, is fair game in terms of being your target, I am not.
So we acknowledge that PFF grades are opinion based grades that are not factual?
PFF is biased.
Analytics are the demise of pro sports internal fortitude and the so called "money player" when it matters most.
Just go ask the Blue Jays.
Reddit had more grades
(https://preview.redd.it/3fzeuukzg7tb1.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=8497cfa1d65b6b011a88ea3941dd66b5c965165e)
(https://preview.redd.it/7pyysb30h7tb1.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=3d049ee3bff37825e9b92d554449dae81b0712b1)
(https://preview.redd.it/r8kpqth0h7tb1.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=acdfd52ca523d58b65fd964906d99551d5b6b97f)
(https://preview.redd.it/xv8k86z0h7tb1.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=2856c5040cce514651ec2571631296a26102bd96)
Tyrod 9/12 86 in very little time
Jones 14/20 119 yards for almost the whole game.
Yeah that makes sense.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 09, 2023, 01:29:19 PMTyrod 9/12 86 in very little time
Jones 14/20 119 yards for almost the whole game.
Yeah that makes sense.
I thought the offense looked smoother with Tyrod
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 09, 2023, 01:29:19 PMTyrod 9/12 86 in very little time
Jones 14/20 119 yards for almost the whole game.
Yeah that makes sense.
Look at the snap counts, Miami started resting their defensive front after Taylor came in (it was also mentioned on the broadcast). Plus they finally benched the swinging door that was Ezeudu
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 09, 2023, 01:29:19 PMTyrod 9/12 86 in very little time
Jones 14/20 119 yards for almost the whole game.
Yeah that makes sense.
I didn't think the offense looked any better or worse with Taylor running the offense so yeah when you look at that PFF's opinionated grades make little sense to me.
Quote from: Trench on October 09, 2023, 01:23:27 PMPFF is biased.
Analytics are the demise of pro sports internal fortitude and the so called "money player" when it matters most.
Just go ask the Blue Jays.
So PFF is biased and you aren't?
Wanna know why I don't take PFF grades seriously? How about this:
Week 5 Grades:
Daniel Jones: 87.1
Trevor Lawrence: 84.1
PFF believes that Lawrence's 2 fumbles recovered by Buffalo made him less valuable than Jones despite Lawrence throwing for over 300 yards and a TD when Jones barely threw for over 100 yards.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 09, 2023, 03:45:37 PMWanna know why I don't take PFF grades seriously? How about this:
Week 5 Grades:
Daniel Jones: 87.1
Trevor Lawrence: 84.1
PFF believes that Lawrence's 2 fumbles recovered by Buffalo made him less valuable than Jones despite Lawrence throwing for over 300 yards and a TD when Jones barely threw for over 100 yards.
It's all about fitting the narrative or agenda based. When PFF is used in the opposite end, the use of PFF is flawed and viewed in a vacuum.
If DJ wasn't graded how he was, this thread would look very different
Quote from: True Blue on October 09, 2023, 03:53:22 PMIt's all about fitting the narrative or agenda based. When PFF is used in the opposite end, the use of PFF is flawed and viewed in a vacuum.
If DJ wasn't graded how he was, this thread would look very different
To your point, look at conversations (or rather, the lack thereof) regarding Jones's QBR. That metric was thrown around a lot last year to argue Jones was a top-10 QB. Now? Hardly mentioned. And I'm guessing the fact that he's 28th in the NFL probably has something to do with it.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 09, 2023, 03:45:37 PMWanna know why I don't take PFF grades seriously? How about this:
Week 5 Grades:
Daniel Jones: 87.1
Trevor Lawrence: 84.1
PFF believes that Lawrence's 2 fumbles recovered by Buffalo made him less valuable than Jones despite Lawrence throwing for over 300 yards and a TD when Jones barely threw for over 100 yards.
Or maybe Jones didn't play as poor as you think. Maybe those deep shots to Waller were viewed as catchable passes that Waller didn't get the job done.
Maybe they see what 99.9% of the world sees that the OL is so bad - no one can play effectively with it.
Quote from: True Blue on October 09, 2023, 03:53:22 PMIt's all about fitting the narrative or agenda based. When PFF is used in the opposite end, the use of PFF is flawed and viewed in a vacuum.
If DJ wasn't graded how he was, this thread would look very different
True you and
@Rambo89 had nothing bad to say about PFF when they were giving Jones bad grades. The minute they give him a good grade the two of you suddenly claim PFF is biased, can't be trusted, is treated like a Bible etc
It's funny how accusations can actually be a confession.
As for me, I post these grades every week good or bad.
Quote from: JT39 on October 09, 2023, 04:14:09 PMOr maybe Jones didn't play as poor as you think. Maybe those deep shots to Waller were viewed as catchable passes that Waller didn't get the job done.
Maybe they see what 99.9% of the world sees that the OL is so bad - no one can play effectively with it.
Or maybe they value a conservative performance where there are 4 out of 19 passes attempted over 10 yards over a QB who throws for over 300 yards and a TD but fumbles twice?
BTW this is more about Trevor Lawrence's performance being rated lower than Jones's performance by PFF yesterday which is insane and shows how flawed PFF's grading system is.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 09, 2023, 04:17:23 PMTrue you and @Rambo89
And yourself.
Quote from: JT39 on October 09, 2023, 04:14:09 PMOr maybe Jones didn't play as poor as you think. Maybe those deep shots to Waller were viewed as catchable passes that Waller didn't get the job done.
Maybe they see what 99.9% of the world sees that the OL is so bad - no one can play effectively with it.
If the line was fixed it would makes no difference whatsoever. You can think it would but Jones is not going to be something that he's never been with a fixes Oline. He'll be the same guy throwing for 3,000 yards regardless of who is on the line and in the modern NFL that's not good enough.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 09, 2023, 04:19:33 PMAnd yourself.
This is factually false. I post the grades every week, good or bad. It's also factually true you only criticize PFF if they give Jones a good grade
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 09, 2023, 04:22:23 PMIf the line was fixed it would makes no difference whatsoever. You can think it would but Jones is not going to be something that he's never been with a fixes Oline. He'll be the same guy throwing for 3,000 yards regardless of who is on the line and in the modern NFL that's not good enough.
Jess,
Daniel Jones has never played behind a good line. So how do you know how he would play behind a good line?
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 09, 2023, 04:19:33 PMOr maybe they value a conservative performance where there are 4 out of 19 passes attempted over 10 yards over a QB who throws for over 300 yards and a TD but fumbles twice?
BTW this is more about Trevor Lawrence's performance being rated lower than Jones's performance by PFF yesterday which is insane and shows how flawed PFF's grading system is.
And yourself.
Both of Lawrence's turnovers cost them opportunities at points - so he was probably docked majorly for that. He also made a throws with a. Clean pocket and wide open WRs - so he probably didn't give as much credit as you think.
What you will always fail to understand is when a QB is pressured (Jones is on pace to be the most pressured QB ever) - plays are disrupted, you can't go through progrsssions, you can't let your WRs finish routes.
And I know you're a big proponent of just throwing it up even if he hasn't finished his drop or WRs haven't finished their route. I am sure you're all for throwing to WRs who are even looking for the ball too.
You absolutely have a one track mind at this point. Any thread not dedicated to Jones - you make it a Jones thread. It's really tough to have civil discussion about the team at this point. I am not trying to be mean or not telling you not to post - but every single post in every single thread is about Jones, Jones, Jones. We get it already.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 09, 2023, 04:23:45 PMThis is factually false. I post the grades every week, good or bad. It's also factually true you only criticize PFF if they give Jones a good grade
Actually I've been critical of PFF for a while so I ask again that you please stop making up things about myself that aren't true.
Quote from: JT39 on October 09, 2023, 04:27:15 PMBoth of Lawrence's turnovers cost them opportunities at points - so he was probably docked majorly for that. He also made a throws with a. Clean pocket and wide open WRs - so he probably didn't give as much credit as you think.
What you will always fail to understand is when a QB is pressured (Jones is on pace to be the most pressured QB ever) - plays are disrupted, you can't go through progrsssions, you can't let your WRs finish routes.
And I know you're a big proponent of just throwing it up even if he hasn't finished his drop or WRs haven't finished their route. I am sure you're all for throwing to WRs who are even looking for the ball too.
You absolutely have a one track mind at this point. Any thread not dedicated to Jones - you make it a Jones thread. It's really tough to have civil discussion about the team at this point. I am not trying to be mean or not telling you not to post - but every single post in every single thread is about Jones, Jones, Jones. We get it already.
Again Lawrence threw for over 300 yards and a TD. Even with those 2 turnovers how is he rated lesser than a QB who had a bit over 100 yards who had 4 attempts over 10 yards? Do you believe that a 120 yard 0 TD 0 turnover passing game is more valuable than a 300 yard 1 TD but two fumbles performance?
Take the names Lawrence and Daniel Jones out of the picture which I understand might be difficult for you.
QuoteJones had a near-elite 87.1
=)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =))
I'm OK, I'm OK, just was stunned a bit.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 09, 2023, 04:37:10 PMActually I've been critical of PFF for a while so I ask again that you please stop making up things about myself that aren't true.
Again Lawrence threw for over 300 yards and a TD. Even with those 2 turnovers how is he rated lesser than a QB who had a bit over 100 yards who had 4 attempts over 10 yards? Do you believe that a 120 yard 0 TD 0 turnover passing game is more valuable than a 300 yard 1 TD but two fumbles performance?
Take the names Lawrence and Daniel Jones out of the picture which I understand might be difficult for you.
I'll do that once you stop blaming Jones for everything. I won't hold my breath... trust me.
And a reminder - you said Lawrence was an elite QB like Mahomes - so I'll take your evaluation with a huge grain of salt... lol
Quote from: JT39 on October 09, 2023, 04:46:52 PMI'll do that once you stop blaming Jones for everything. I won't hold my breath... trust me.
And a reminder - you said Lawrence was an elite QB like Mahomes - so I'll take your evaluation with a huge grain of salt... lol
As I expected you didn't answer the question of what performance you would value more and believe is the better game. Tells me everything when it comes to your ability to have an honest civil conversation.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 09, 2023, 04:57:27 PMAs I expected you didn't answer the question of what performance you would value more and believe is the better game. Tells me everything when it comes to your ability to have an honest civil conversation.
I didn't watch Lawrence play. So how could I? Just speculate on stats? Watching 45 seconds of highlights isn't the way I like to grade out players. Maybe you do, but I tend to look at bigger things than just stats.
Quote from: JT39 on October 09, 2023, 05:02:09 PMI didn't watch Lawrence play. So how could I? Just speculate on stats? Watching 45 seconds of highlights isn't the way I like to grade out players. Maybe you do, but I tend to look at bigger things than just stats.
If you didn't watch, then you are in no position to say who played better than who.
Quote from: JT39 on October 09, 2023, 05:02:09 PMI didn't watch Lawrence play. So how could I? Just speculate on stats? Watching 45 seconds of highlights isn't the way I like to grade out players. Maybe you do, but I tend to look at bigger things than just stats.
That wasn't the question. The question was which performance do you value more and believe is worthy of being graded as the better performance the 14-20 119 0 (tel:14-20%20119%200) TD 0 INT game or the 25-37 315 1 (tel:25-37%20315%201) TD 0 INT but 2 fumbles game?
Again take away the names and just look at it on the surface.
Quote from: True Blue on October 09, 2023, 05:04:29 PMIf you didn't watch, then you are in no position to say who played better than who.
Well good thing I didn't, right? Someone asked why the ratings were they were there and I used a few plays as reasoning why.
Never said Jones was better than Lawrence, but good try. A for effort, F for execution.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 09, 2023, 05:05:50 PMThat wasn't the question. The question was which performance do you value more and believe is worthy of being graded as the better performance the 14-20 119 0 (tel:14-20%20119%200) TD 0 INT game or the 25-37 315 1 (tel:25-37%20315%201) TD 0 INT but 2 fumbles game?
Again take away the names and just look at it on the surface.
Well like I said previously - I don't look at stats to say whose better. You might, but it's a more of an amateur way to look at things.
You can't make judgements comparing players if you don't watch one play. Plus you're not even throwing in variables that you continually dismiss - so why bother asking.
How about we say this - Jones is the worst QB in the league and everyone plays better than him... so you don't have to ruin every thread?
Quote from: JT39 on October 09, 2023, 05:08:52 PMWell like I said previously - I don't look at stats to say whose better. You might, but it's a more of an amateur way to look at things.
You can't make judgements comparing players if you don't watch one play. Plus you're not even throwing in variables that you continually dismiss - so why bother asking.
How about we say this - Jones is the worst QB in the league and everyone plays better than him... so you don't have to ruin every thread?
Can't say I didn't try to have a civil conversation when I ask a simple question that you can't answer to show how flawed PFF's grades are and why I've been critical of their grades for a while using them as fact as some have done and continue to do.
I answered it twice. You just didn't like my answer. That's a you problem.
Quote from: JT39 on October 09, 2023, 05:14:20 PMI answered it twice. You just didn't like my answer. That's a you problem.
If you did you would have picked one or the other as being the better performance. Instead you choose to deflect why you couldn't answer. That's fine but don't lie and take personal shots at me.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 09, 2023, 05:16:51 PMIf you did you would have picked one or the other as being the better performance. Instead you choose to deflect why you couldn't answer. That's fine but don't lie and take personal shots at me.
I didn't lie. Lol. You asked me a question I can't answer. So you want me to answer something I don't know? Way to start a civil discussion!
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 09, 2023, 04:37:10 PMTake the names Lawrence and Daniel Jones out of the picture which I understand might be difficult for you.
And this isn't a personal attack?
Time for me to leave this thread. The civil discussion ended about 25 posts ago.
Quote from: JT39 on October 09, 2023, 05:19:10 PMI didn't lie. Lol. You asked me a question I can't answer. So you want me to answer something I don't know? Way to start a civil discussion!
That's not what you said with this response.
Quote from: JT39 on October 09, 2023, 05:14:20 PMI answered it twice. You just didn't like my answer. That's a you problem.
Can't have a civil discussion without honesty.
Quote from: JT39 on October 09, 2023, 05:21:00 PMAnd this isn't a personal attack?
Time for me to leave this thread. The civil discussion ended about 25 posts ago.
Might want to go back and look at the post I was responding to of yours that started with the attacks.
Quote from: JT39 on October 09, 2023, 02:01:52 PMSo PFF is biased and you aren't?
Nope. I'm not biased.
https://twitter.com/PFF_Sam/status/1711470280827183110?s=20
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 09, 2023, 04:25:20 PMJess,
Daniel Jones has never played behind a good line. So how do you know how he would play behind a good line?
Rich he is who he is at this point. This isn't a Qb a few games into his 2nd year, we are in year 5 and no matter who is on that line Jones just doesn't perform.
So you are perfectly comfortable rolling with Jones next year? Hypothetical we completely fix the Oline this offseason and have the weapons, you are comfortable riding with Jones the next 3 years even if we have a top 5 pick this offseason?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 09, 2023, 04:25:20 PMJess,
Daniel Jones has never played behind a good line. So how do you know how he would play behind a good line?
Rich, I know this is a discussion site, and you, JT39 and a few others keep trying but;
In the same vein with your point, I recently said:
"When you can tell me he (DJ) has had an even average surrounding cast for any sustained period of time, and played poorly, then I am ready to discuss his questionable merits as an NFL qb."
And this: "When the Giants are able to show an offensive line that can adequately, much less show superior blocking skills to protect him in passing plays, you cannot objectively evaluate his capacity to be a better than average, or top level qb."
I guess against Miami, our OL did an turn-about and was adequate - NOT. Six sacks and 28 in 5 games, and that's not even getting into pressures.
The ever critical Jones group continues. Good luck with your ongoing attempts to reason with them. When I see more objective analysis, I may re-enter the fray regarding DJ (if he survives to attain better qb working conditions).
Quote from: Bigmoose on October 09, 2023, 06:02:34 PMRich, I know this is a discussion site, and you, JT39 and a few others keep trying but;
In the same vein with your point, I recently said:
"When you can tell me he (DJ) has had an even average surrounding cast for any sustained period of time, and played poorly, then I am ready to discuss his questionable merits as an NFL qb."
And this: "When the Giants are able to show an offensive line that can adequately, much less show superior blocking skills to protect him in passing plays, you cannot objectively evaluate his capacity to be a better than average, or top level qb."
I guess against Miami, our OL did a turn-about and was adequate - NOT. Six sacks and 28 in 5 games, and that's not even getting into hits.
The ever critical Jones group continues. Good luck with your ongoing attempts to reason with them. When I see more objective analysis, I may re-enter the fray regarding DJ (if he survives to attain better qb working conditions).
I think Mighty says it better than me. If we have an opportunity to upgrade from Jones - you do it. But it's hard to evaluate anyone when you are constantly pressured, hit, and sacked. I just posted a stat that we are in pace to be pressured more than 100 times than anyone last year.
Those not placing the majority of the blame on the OL can't answer why we can't run either. 21 carries for 46 yards from our RBs last week.
We can say we brought in more weapons but we didn't. Waller had chances to make a few plays and failed. Slayton had a chance to make a sideline go route but didn't give him enough room on the sidelines to catch the ball.
It's never ending. The talent on the team is awful whether you include the QB or not.
Quote from: JT39 on October 09, 2023, 06:07:54 PMI think Mighty says it better than me. If we have an opportunity to upgrade from Jones - you do it. But it's hard to evaluate anyone when you are constantly pressured, hit, and sacked. I just posted a stat that we are in pace to be pressured more than 100 times than anyone last year.
Those not placing the majority of the blame on the OL can't answer why we can't run either. 21 carries for 46 yards from our RBs last week.
We can say we brought in more weapons but we didn't. Waller had chances to make a few plays and failed. Slayton had a chance to make a sideline go route but didn't give him enough room on the sidelines to catch the ball.
It's never ending. The talent on the team is awful whether you include the QB or not.
But why upgrade from a QB that is so great in Daniel Jones and it's just his supporting cast that isn't good? If you are of that belief then I don't know why you wouldn't do that. I mean if it's all on the offensive line and weapons why not just spend the Top 10 pick on a WR or another linemen?
Have to come up with some nicknames for the OL..Hmmm. How about these..
The Phantom Five..Rusty Gate Gang..Big Blew Crew..The Stinko Cinco..The Turnstile Team..The Mild Bunch..The Flag Five.. :boooo:
(https://preview.redd.it/ptxs40pj59tb1.jpg?width=864&auto=webp&s=935d62e93ecb642922369a2859bb70fb73379e18)
Once we get Pugh, JMS, and Thomas together you will see gelling and all will be much better.
Well..w
Quote from: Trench on October 09, 2023, 06:51:04 PMOnce we get Pugh, JMS, and Thomas together you will see gelling and all will be much better.
Okay...we can then have the Pugh Blue Crew :yes:
Quote from: Trench on October 09, 2023, 06:51:04 PMOnce we get Pugh, JMS, and Thomas together you will see gelling and all will be much better.
You could be right. Although by the time that happens any wins will just ruin the Giants draft position, as they will likely be out of the playoffs. :(