Was it Dallas that showed how woefully unprepared this team was entering the season?
Was it the Bills, Raiders or Jets?
I believe it was against the Jets in a game they should have won if not just for the decision to play conservative and one dimensional, but to show how unprepared they were for a backup QB after having weeks to bring in a veteran, not knowing or understanding the condition of the kicker and calling the worst set of plays in overtime after taking the ball and not trusting their Defense.
All that aside, what were the common themes in each of the losses?
I'm not laying the blame completely at the feet of Daboll/Kafka because the players still have to play and execute the game plan.
But... the game plan in the season opener was garbage, if they even had one. They did not adjust or adapt to anything that Dallas was doing defensively. Our offense played dead the entire game. This offense will more than likely set a franchise record for futility.
Quote from: T200 on November 09, 2023, 08:54:04 AMI'm not laying the blame completely at the feet of Daboll/Kafka because the players still have to play and execute the game plan.
But... the game plan in the season opener was garbage, if they even had one. They did not adjust or adapt to anything that Dallas was doing defensively. Our offense played dead the entire game. This offense will more than likely set a franchise record for futility.
With all the criticism Jason Garrett received and even after bringing in Fredo Kitchens, their Offense generated 17.5 and 15 average points per game. This team under the QB and Offense Gurus has averaged 11. Just wrap your head around that for a minute. Then take out the one anomaly of the Cardinals game and it's a whopping 8.75.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 09, 2023, 09:35:25 AMWith all the criticism Jason Garrett received and even after bringing in Fredo Kitchens, their Offense generated 17.5 and 15 average points per game. This team under the QB and Offense Gurus has averaged 11. Just wrap your head around that for a minute. Then take out the one anomaly of the Cardinals game and it's a whopping 8.75.
I'm still stuck on less than 10 passing yards FOR AN ENTIRE GAME!!!!! ~X( ~X( ~X(
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 09, 2023, 09:35:25 AMWith all the criticism Jason Garrett received and even after bringing in Fredo Kitchens, their Offense generated 17.5 and 15 average points per game. This team under the QB and Offense Gurus has averaged 11. Just wrap your head around that for a minute. Then take out the one anomaly of the Cardinals game and it's a whopping 8.75.
The 2023 is the worst offense I have ever seen from the Giants and that says a lot. Think about it. Dave Brown averaged more points per game in every season he started in.
The Dallas game was a huge red flag for me.
Totally unprepared and not ready to
Play.
Dallas game for sure. I had posted before the start of the season that the Cowboys game was the barometer of how well the Giants would do for the rest of the season. After the game I knew this was going to be a bumpy season, but nothing prepared me for what unfolded.
And it's not even halfway through
Dallas was a disaster and the should've won the Jets game. Still, getting blown out by a Raiders team starting a fifth round rookie QB and within a week of firing the head coach? Pretty freaking bad.
Jones had Barkley, the defense had been playing well, and the offensive line had most of the guys back.
Simply put: Jones stunk. Even Pat Traina is done with him.
https://www.si.com/nfl/giants/big-blue-plus/daniel-joness-play-confirms-hes-not-the-long-term-answer
For me it was the Seattle game. They had 11 days to prepare and it was truly a must-win, and they were at home, and they were just so inept. That was the game that really put the season to bed for me. The Dallas game was obviously a disaster but it also felt like a game that just spiraled out of control. Then we followed that one with a win. The loss in San Fran was a foregone conclusion and at least they were still in the game in the fourth quarter. At that point I was still holding out some hope, but I really felt the Seattle game (especially with the extra rest) had to be a strong performance. And it was the exact opposite. That game really defined the season for me.
Dallas - completely unprepared and showed weakest link in OL, right side of OL and Evan Neal.
Dallas was beyond surprising.
I expected a passionate, fired up team to build off last year and play with a purpose on their home field. To be 100% unprepared when there was so much to play for was horrible.
and then there was the Raiders Game
Getting blown out in such a lopsided affair by an underachieving, down in the dumps franchise that just fired their coach after the loss to the Jets was very telling about what this team is. The Giants first 3 drives to star the game were a disgrace (turn over on downs, sacks to end up in 3rd and 27, and a 3 and out). Jones comeback game with everything to play for, seeing TT handle the reality of the offense much better than he had been to date came out looking like crap again only to get knocked out. No urgency, no will, no desire; just more horrible uninspired, passionless football from the leader on down.
Just horrible.
I honestly thought the team looked half way decent vs buffalo and could turn the season around off that game despite the loss.
Very simply, the Eagles playoff game to end our season was a foreshadowing of everything we have seen this year.
We are so far behind the curves in talent and coaching it should make everyone shudder.
Quit thinking playoff competitive and start aiming for middle of the pack beg Dafore dreaming of beating the Philly and Dallas of this league.
Right now our rebuild Year 2 has completely stalled and even to some degree regressed.
Quote from: Uni on November 09, 2023, 10:03:15 AMDallas game for sure. I had posted before the start of the season that the Cowboys game was the barometer of how well the Giants would do for the rest of the season. After the game I knew this was going to be a bumpy season, but nothing prepared me for what unfolded.
And it's not even halfway through
Not since the 1995 season opener (0-35) was a game more telling than 0-40.
Peace!
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 09, 2023, 10:27:22 AMFor me it was the Seattle game. They had 11 days to prepare and it was truly a must-win, and they were at home, and they were just so inept. That was the game that really put the season to bed for me. The Dallas game was obviously a disaster but it also felt like a game that just spiraled out of control. Then we followed that one with a win. The loss in San Fran was a foregone conclusion and at least they were still in the game in the fourth quarter. At that point I was still holding out some hope, but I really felt the Seattle game (especially with the extra rest) had to be a strong performance. And it was the exact opposite. That game really defined the season for me.
I agree with you entirely. After that game it cut through my denial that the Giants are a bad football team. The Dallas game was a red flag but with the shortened preseason and all the disastrous opening night games against Dallas in the past I gave them a mulligan. After the first half of the AZ game, I thought wow this is going to be a long season but then they won and put me right back into denial. The SF game echoed Dallas where it seemed like if they needed to pass the ball it was going to fail, to the point I wondered why should they bother? Was that feeling caused by them playing another great defense or their OL being bad or QB decisions or play calling or some combo of all?
After the Seattle game I felt the Giants could not win a game without Barkley and Thomas and once they returned, they needed to focus on keeping games close from clock eating running plays and give themselves a 50/50 chance in the 4th quarter. It also had me reflect on last season and conclude Barkley was the reason for their success and Jones' contract extension. Jones does well in a running system with a good deep ball late in games and depending on a great defense. The team failed for
a number of reasons when they put the offense on Jones to deliver. When the Giants were in a passing situation, pre-snap it felt inevitable that the play would be an ugly sack, an awkward scramble, a throw short of the 1st down marker, or an interception. The team seemed hopeless until Barkley returned. The season seemed lost and became more evaluating what was happening rather than playoff hopes after Seattle.
At least for the Bills, Washington, and Jets games I enjoyed watching the entire games up until the last few seconds. I couldn't say that about any of preceding five games (AZ was not four quarters of thrilling football). They were good games because they avoided placing themselves in obvious passing situations or would just run during them anyway. It also gave us a chance to evaluate the team without Jones until Taylor got hurt (it's not fair to anyone to expect anything from Devito).
I'm now watching to see which players give their best under terrible circumstances and thinking about future seasons rather than any sort of playoff hopes this year. I watch for the competitive spirit and people working together to put their best effort forward. There are so many circumstances outside of our control but giving up is a choice. Quitting is contagious and if the team quits I'll quit watching. I don't think the team is far away from being competitive next season as it seems at the moment.
The Defense has played and can play at an elite level, how can they sustain an elite level for all of next season? They have to cut down on their snap counts and rotate Dex more often and let their depth develop this season. Dex is going to be under more pressure this season without Williams going forward. Williams was a free agent anyway so hopefully they can find another DL with their newly acquired 2nd rounder to complement Dex. With Dex's contract, a rookie is the way to go align beside him. Re-signing Jackson or Mckinney in the off season is a big decision point. I don't think they get lucky finding a starting outside CB after the first round but might get lucky on a safety so I'm leaning towards Jackson or another FA at CB. Banks and Flot have been homeruns this year and this has to be the best linebacker play we've seen since their super bowl teams, right? Ojulari's injuries were a bad draw (there were concerns over his knee that may have pushed him to the 2nd round and at that point was a gamble that didn't pan out). Even if he was healthy he should have been in for passing situations only rather than when opposing offenses had 50/50 run or pass odds. I think lack of depth at the outside position opposite Thibodeaux is why he lined up on the DL on first downs.
Barkley can take on the full attention of a defense and single handily give the offense hope on any given drive. Signing him gives the Giants a chance of being competitive in any game as long as the Defense remains elite and the QB doesn't turn the ball over. They have to watch his snap count though. Jones being a running quarterback with a good arm but having sustained two significant neck injuries and a torn ACL is obviously not the answer for the team next season. I think they take the best available rookie QB and sign a veteran free agent QB whose play style most closely resembles the strengths of the rookie they select. They'll need to add complementary players to Barkley such as more run block first TEs, good run blocking IOL, and another starting quality back to get his snap count much lower then it has been. Hyatt and Robinson are good. Maybe they can sign a possession type of outside WR to line up opposite of Hyatt and is a relatively great run blocker for the position?
In sum, the Giants were a legitimate playoff team last year that ran out of steam once the super high snap counts wore down their defense and Barkley ahead of a fresh Philly team. They can get back to that state by sustaining the defense with a high draft pick IDL, a FA outside CB whose contract expires once Banks is eligible, and maybe some luck late in the draft with safeties and edge rushers. They'll need an offense that can give them a rest, which a Barkley driven offense can do as long as he has another quality starting caliber RB teammate to shoulder the snap count and a couple of running blocking focused additions to IOL and TE. A veteran QB can helm the ship until the rookie is ready. They don't have to pretend to be the greatest show on turf next season, they just need to start winning ugly games again like they did in 2022. They have most of the ingredients, they just need to return to the formula. If they end up with a special QB, they can tailor the offense around his talents after next season when they'll have a better understanding of what types of players will be best complement him.
FA: a #2 CB, Barkley, vet QB, a blocking TE, a #2/3 possession outside WR. None of these moves will put a ton of pressure on the cap. Barkley won't be cheap, but a very expensive RB is going to be much cheaper than a very expensive WR contract and probably not much more than his current annual rate. The CB and WR additions can be towards then end of their careers rather than in their primes and TEs are a low-cost FA position. The QB would be a post-draft signing, which aren't typically high priced in a bidding battle.
Draft:
Rd 1 QB
Rd 2 IDL, OL
Rd 3 RB
Rd 4 TE or S
Rd 5-7 hope they get lucky
I think the above pathway can get them back to the playoffs next season and give their rookie QB a good situation to develop in.
Quote from: kartanoman on November 09, 2023, 12:07:16 PMNot since the 1995 season opener (0-35) was a game more telling than 0-40.
Peace!
So many similarities. The Giants were kind of expected to build off their 9-7 1994 team that would have made the playoffs under todays format with Brown taking the next step at QB. With Hershel Walker brought in and Wheatley drafted in the first round to complement Hampton some predicted the Giants would lead the NFL in rushing. Phil Simms number was retired that game. It was so deflating. I think Emmett Smith took the very first play of the game to the house.
Quote from: TDToomer on November 09, 2023, 01:46:03 PMSo many similarities. The Giants were kind of expected to build off their 9-7 1994 team that would have made the playoffs under todays format with Brown taking the next step at QB. With Hershel Walker brought in and Wheatley drafted in the first round to complement Hampton some predicted the Giants would lead the NFL in rushing. Phil Simms number was retired that game. It was so deflating. I think Emmett Smith took the very first play of the game to the house.
I too felt the pain.
The opener against Dallas was so disappointing because it exposed what I was fearful of, that the O line is still crap, but that game also showed that we have weaknesses in other areas and at the very least, the team was not prepared to fight.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 09, 2023, 02:04:48 PMI too felt the pain.
I still remember the handling of Simms' benching in 1991, his injury in 1992, his redemption in 1993 and his shocking release in 1994 in leading up to his jersey retirement halftime. The man is still bitter about it today and every time this subject gets brought up I have to fight back tears in writing this because our tough, valiant knight, unconquerable, determined to be the final man standing in the end. Indeed, he was, as he was given a night to be the martyr, for all he had done for a football organization that was about to go into a downward spiral, for a while, as he was being placed on a pedestal for all to see as the standard of the very definition of what "tough guy" was all about in those days. They might have called time on his career, but they couldn't take away his achievements which he worked so hard and so long for.
Consider this. There was a point in history when Phil Simms was mentioned in the same breath as the great Joe Montana. For those of you who were too young to be involved in that era, Montana was a god-like entity in this Bill Walsh fabled land called Camelot. But as the Giants eventually overwhelmed the 49ers with their amazing defense, and the offensive line blew the 49ers off the line for Joe Morris and Lee Rouson to run roughshod over them, they then had to contend with this #11 guy who made their all-star secondary spin around 'til they were dizzy in trying to stop the likes of dangerous receivers such as ... Stacy Robinson, Bobby Johnson, Lionel Manuel, Phil McConkey. Oh yes, there IS that one legendary figure, Mark Bavaro, who was Phil's go-to target. But Simms completely out-dueled Montana in 1985 and 1986 over a span of three games where Simms tossed a total of eight (8) TDs to Montana only one (1). Camelot lay in complete ruins after the '86 Divisional Playoff 49-3 thrashing in Giants Stadium. But when it was all said and done in Pasadena, CA, our #11 made history as the very first Super Bowl MVP going to Disneyland / Disneyworld. How sweet it was!
Phil never climbed back to the top of the Everest of the game again, despite his teammates carrying him up there one final time in 1990 after he injured his foot. He missed games in every season following the magical 1986 campaign but still led the Giants to winning football four more times and the playoffs three more times. His renaissance final season of 1993 is remembered for how efficient he played and his leadership nearly was enough to will a vastly inferior Giants team to a divisional championship over the best team in football at the time, the Cowboys. He should have been voted the NFL MVP for all the intangible things he meant to the Giants and to the NFL at a time when New York was hurting football-wise and the final curtain call for he and LT was one of the great stories of 1993.
He will likely stay on the outer fringe of the Hall of Fame. So be it. You can look no further than the Giants' Ring of Honor where you will see his name and his number 11 displayed for all to see from here until the end of time. Within the Giants' Legacy Club, you can see the bust of the "Great Phil Simms," as his old head coach describes him. He belongs to us, the "Old Giants Stadium" faithful who were there when he started his first full game against an undefeated Tampa Bay team, that would eventually make it to the NFC Championship game, and Simms and Billy Taylor beat them (NOTE: ironically, Simms also beat the NFC Champion that year, the LA Rams, in Los Angeles, for the Giants' first win in LA in 20 years at that point). If you watched the Cardinals' game earlier this season, and noticed a bunch of #11 jerseys all in a row, that was myself and my family.
Phil Simms was a quarterback for the people of North Jersey at a time when a tough quarterback was needed. We gave him grief when we thought he wasn't showing that toughness but we sure had his back when he did. He lives in our folklore because of it and that's why, as he said in his 1995 speech, "I will always, remember, the Giant fans."
Peace!
The 49ers game
Even when D Jones had time to.throw he was off
It felt that D Jones was rattled before the pocket collapsed
It felt he was so rattled he threw it before he had to
Dallas.
I was looking forward to week 1 this year more than any in a long time. I legitimately thought we might be a dominant team.
To get smacked 40-0, DJ terrible, Waller & Andrew Thomas hurt, Neal a turn-style. Talk about everything going wrong. And it stayed that way.
For me, it was Seattle. Time to prepare, and 2nd time in a row we are a no show on our home field. That's when I knew Daboll had to go.
NO GUTS, NO GLORY.
And I don't want any part of Barkley.
Draft a QB.
Draft a RT
Draft a DT
Draft a G
Draft a TE
Draft a RB
Sign a G
Sign a Swing T
FIRE HC Daboll For the life of me, I can't understand how some here are on board for more Daboll???
Quote from: Jaime on November 10, 2023, 09:56:35 PMFor me, it was Seattle. Time to prepare, and 2nd time in a row we are a no show on our home field. That's when I knew Daboll had to go.
NO GUTS, NO GLORY.
And I don't want any part of Barkley.
Draft a QB.
Draft a RT
Draft a DT
Draft a G
Draft a TE
Draft a RB
Sign a G
Sign a Swing T
FIRE HC Daboll For the life of me, I can't understand how some here are on board for more Daboll???
You make a good point about the lack of preparation on a long week.
Quote from: Jaime on November 10, 2023, 09:56:35 PMFor me, it was Seattle. Time to prepare, and 2nd time in a row we are a no show on our home field. That's when I knew Daboll had to go.
NO GUTS, NO GLORY.
And I don't want any part of Barkley.
Draft a QB.
Draft a RT
Draft a DT
Draft a G
Draft a TE
Draft a RB
Sign a G
Sign a Swing T
FIRE HC Daboll For the life of me, I can't understand how some here are on board for more Daboll???
Jamie, my friend. While your emotions may be right on, we simply cannot keep firing coaches every two years. While most are not thrilled with Dabol this season I have to give him another year, especially if we draft our next QB. But after that it's do or die.
Quote from: LennG on November 11, 2023, 12:23:22 PMJamie, my friend. While your emotions may be right on, we simply cannot keep firing coaches every two years. While most are not thrilled with Dabol this season I have to give him another year, especially if we draft our next QB. But after that it's do or die.
I see it your way, Lenn. It's far too disruptive and if the GM is solid, they can continue to build the team another year. If however Daboll has a meltdown, and I don't expect that to happen then they would have no choice. Judge needed to go. I'm not so sure about McAdoo. He should have gotten more support.
The first game because it exposed the inefficacy of the soft camp, not playing players in pre-season, and not settling on an ol so the players could gel together.
Quote from: kartanoman on November 09, 2023, 07:50:10 PMI still remember the handling of Simms' benching in 1991, his injury in 1992, his redemption in 1993 and his shocking release in 1994 in leading up to his jersey retirement halftime. The man is still bitter about it today and every time this subject gets brought up I have to fight back tears in writing this because our tough, valiant knight, unconquerable, determined to be the final man standing in the end. Indeed, he was, as he was given a night to be the martyr, for all he had done for a football organization that was about to go into a downward spiral, for a while, as he was being placed on a pedestal for all to see as the standard of the very definition of what "tough guy" was all about in those days. They might have called time on his career, but they couldn't take away his achievements which he worked so hard and so long for.
Consider this. There was a point in history when Phil Simms was mentioned in the same breath as the great Joe Montana. For those of you who were too young to be involved in that era, Montana was a god-like entity in this Bill Walsh fabled land called Camelot. But as the Giants eventually overwhelmed the 49ers with their amazing defense, and the offensive line blew the 49ers off the line for Joe Morris and Lee Rouson to run roughshod over them, they then had to contend with this #11 guy who made their all-star secondary spin around 'til they were dizzy in trying to stop the likes of dangerous receivers such as ... Stacy Robinson, Bobby Johnson, Lionel Manuel, Phil McConkey. Oh yes, there IS that one legendary figure, Mark Bavaro, who was Phil's go-to target. But Simms completely out-dueled Montana in 1985 and 1986 over a span of three games where Simms tossed a total of eight (8) TDs to Montana only one (1). Camelot lay in complete ruins after the '86 Divisional Playoff 49-3 thrashing in Giants Stadium. But when it was all said and done in Pasadena, CA, our #11 made history as the very first Super Bowl MVP going to Disneyland / Disneyworld. How sweet it was!
Phil never climbed back to the top of the Everest of the game again, despite his teammates carrying him up there one final time in 1990 after he injured his foot. He missed games in every season following the magical 1986 campaign but still led the Giants to winning football four more times and the playoffs three more times. His renaissance final season of 1993 is remembered for how efficient he played and his leadership nearly was enough to will a vastly inferior Giants team to a divisional championship over the best team in football at the time, the Cowboys. He should have been voted the NFL MVP for all the intangible things he meant to the Giants and to the NFL at a time when New York was hurting football-wise and the final curtain call for he and LT was one of the great stories of 1993.
He will likely stay on the outer fringe of the Hall of Fame. So be it. You can look no further than the Giants' Ring of Honor where you will see his name and his number 11 displayed for all to see from here until the end of time. Within the Giants' Legacy Club, you can see the bust of the "Great Phil Simms," as his old head coach describes him. He belongs to us, the "Old Giants Stadium" faithful who were there when he started his first full game against an undefeated Tampa Bay team, that would eventually make it to the NFC Championship game, and Simms and Billy Taylor beat them (NOTE: ironically, Simms also beat the NFC Champion that year, the LA Rams, in Los Angeles, for the Giants' first win in LA in 20 years at that point). If you watched the Cardinals' game earlier this season, and noticed a bunch of #11 jerseys all in a row, that was myself and my family.
Phil Simms was a quarterback for the people of North Jersey at a time when a tough quarterback was needed. We gave him grief when we thought he wasn't showing that toughness but we sure had his back when he did. He lives in our folklore because of it and that's why, as he said in his 1995 speech, "I will always, remember, the Giant fans."
Peace!
I love everything about this post and it needs to be reposted. Back in 1986 I liked Simms enough to chose Philip as my Confirmation name. It has nothing to do with Saint Philip. All due respect to Eli but Phil is my favorite Giants QB ever. I needed a practice football jersey to wear in 4th grade town football and my dad got me a white #11. I wore it on Halloween with my helmet.
If you are going to fire daboll it should of happen the second they accepted the kick in overtime against the Jets
There is no explantion for that
Especially since we have minus 9 yrds for the whole.game
I was in North Carolina yesterday watching my Grand daughter play in a softball tournament and did not see the game.
After reading reports and reactions to the game it appears I made a good choice not to pay attention or try to keep up with it.
I have given Daboll the benefit of the doubt to this point.
However after watching post game interviews from him and Barkley this morning on Giants app........yikes there is a major issue going on with the team. And it is not good....Barkley to his credit is a real pro and did not throw anyone under the bus ...however, all the signs are there that this team is a real mess ...
Daboll looked totally defeated in his post game interview.
I know some will say it has been this way for a while and " you just seeing it ?"
Yes I have seen it , but ...for the first time for me .... This was different ....When Shawn O'Hara describes the game in his opening comments...." This was like watching JV vs. varsity football" as they were never in game from the start.
Something has to happen very soon to shake up this team...I mean this week....hire somebody ...the offensive coordinator or somebody. . Or Daboll will have to go as bad as that sounds.
Not him being fired ...but it would be the what ? Fourth consecutive coach they didn't last three years?
As long as Mr Mara owns team ..nothing will change.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk