Time to Clean House and start over?

[DaveBrown74]

Wasn't McCaffrey hurt when the Panthers dealt him last year?  I know he had years left on his contract making the trade easier but that's not to say they couldn't get something for Barkley

If memory serves he was coming off an injury or was on the very tail end of it.

In no way do I think the Giants will get anything like the McCaffrey package. My point is simply why not get whatever you can, even if it's very little, if you don't intend to sign or tag Barkley after this year and the season is clearly over? What's the point of not taking whatever you can get, even if it's just a fifth rounder? Do people really care about the difference between 5-12 and 6-11?

[fromthebside]

They're going to have to go through a period of lean years.  There is very little talent on this team and I'm starting to question the coaching staff.  Yes, it's time to clean house.  It's something they should have done in the off-season.  But I'm sure there was pressure from ownership after a playoff victory to keep the train moving.  But the train has run off the tracks.  Jones should have been franchised tagged and Barkley given a 2 to 3 year deal. Or let Daniel test free agency to see that other teams wouldn't come close to 40 million dollars.  But the Giants are here now and they have to deal with the remainder of the season.  Gotta see who can play, who will be around for 2024, and who will be dealt at the trading deadline.  It's like my Mets dealing away players after investing heavily in salaries.  They have to do it and position themselves for the future.  Acquire picks, reduce cap hits, and figure out the talent.  This season is done.

[Rambo89]

It's not 40%. They need depth. When John Schmitz went down, the line went from poor to pathetic. Injuries are too common. This isn't the first time Thomas has been hurt. As for Neal, I wouldn't give up on him yet, but at this point, he's a big question mark. The team was and is being built wrong for at least 10 years now. Longer if you go back to Reese not reloading when the line started to get old. This is the 2nd time they reloaded with WR's & pass catching first TE's. It don't work. They're never going to win consistently until they have a decent line with adequate back ups and that's not going to happen in the next draft and free agent signing period.

I don't think the D needs nearly as much to fix.

Again the Giants have invested a ton of draft capital into the offensive line.  I'm done spending another 1st or 2nd round pick on it.  Every team in the league that has a good line has invested less and gotten more out of their players.  The scouting and coaching is what needs to change before I spend another premium draft pick on it.

[Giant Jim]

Again the Giants have invested a ton of draft capital into the offensive line.  I'm done spending another 1st or 2nd round pick on it.  Every team in the league that has a good line has invested less and gotten more out of their players.  The scouting and coaching is what needs to change before I spend another premium draft pick on it.

They're on their 4th head coach, 5th if you count the end of Coughlin's run. How many offensive assistants? None of them could make it work. The line needed to be fixed or invested in for over 10 years. How many linemen left here and were successful with other teams? You think they should continue to build with this foundation and bring in more WR's and pass catching, no-block TE's? Neal and the rest of the 2022 draft were scouted by Gettleman's scouting staff, so Schoen deserves more time.

No, I'm not tired of drafting linemen with 1st and 2nd round picks. And I won't be until the can build a line and system that can form a pocket, open holes for running backs and push opposing defenses back in short yardage plays.

[uconnjack8]

The offense looks completely lost in the 1st half of every game so far. 

They haven't looked much better in the 2nd half, but they have scored 9 points in 8 quarters of 1st half play. 

Thst speaks to game planning and preparation.   

Further, when you have an offense that is struggling to score, when you get down 2 scores in the 2nd half it adds to the difficulty.   

Special teams play hasn't helped and -8 T/O differential is killer.  The defense has not gotten a single takeaway. 

[DaveBrown74]

The reality is the Giants have a serious talent problem at nearly every position. What broad unit on the team (secondary, O line, QB, D line, etc) do you feel genuinely confident and good about from a talent perspective from the top of the depth chart to the bottom? Is there even a single one?

[uconnjack8]

Feel pretty good about the DL if we are talking about the 3-4 base D.

After that, not so much. 

[Rambo89]

They're on their 4th head coach, 5th if you count the end of Coughlin's run. How many offensive assistants? None of them could make it work. The line needed to be fixed or invested in for over 10 years. How many linemen left here and were successful with other teams? You think they should continue to build with this foundation and bring in more WR's and pass catching, no-block TE's? Neal and the rest of the 2022 draft were scouted by Gettleman's scouting staff, so Schoen deserves more time.

No, I'm not tired of drafting linemen with 1st and 2nd round picks. And I won't be until the can build a line and system that can form a pocket, open holes for running backs and push opposing defenses back in short yardage plays.

I think they should change the line coach and how they are scouting linemen.  The Giants have too many holes on the rest of the roster on both sides of the ball to spend another set of high draft picks on linemen.  Spending more high draft picks on linemen is going to lead to the same result of a flawed roster.

[uconnjack8]

I think they should change the line coach and how they are scouting linemen.  The Giants have too many holes on the rest of the roster on both sides of the ball to spend another set of high draft picks on linemen.  Spending more high draft picks on linemen is going to lead to the same result of a flawed roster.

It may, but until they can block our division rivals, it won't really matter what the rest of the roster looks like.

If its coaching, then get the right coach in place.  This team is its 5th OL coach since 2016.  Switching the coach hasn't been the solution either. 

[Rambo89]

It may, but until they can block our division rivals, it won't really matter what the rest of the roster looks like.

If its coaching, then get the right coach in place.  This team is its 5th OL coach since 2016.  Switching the coach hasn't been the solution either. 

The rest of the roster is just as important and just as much of an issue especially the defense that lacks a consistent pass rush and isn't good in the secondary or LBers.  Let's say they spend another top 10 pick on a linemen and it improves the line next season......at the same time it comes at the cost of passing on a needed defensive player or play making receiver they lack.  Where does that leave the Giants?  Not much better than they are now.

[Jclayton92]

That was schoen ie buffalo's Achilles heal, they couldn't draft Dlinemen or olinemen ever to save themselves. The invested tons into both lines and still are having to go into FA to get the von miller's etc.

[uconnjack8]

The rest of the roster is just as important and just as much of an issue especially the defense that lacks a consistent pass rush and isn't good in the secondary or LBers.  Let's say they spend another top 10 pick on a linemen and it improves the line next season......at the same time it comes at the cost of passing on a needed defensive player or play making receiver they lack.  Where does that leave the Giants?  Not much better than they are now.

Unless you build an all-time defense this team isnt winning many games scoring 11.5 pts/game. And let's face it, they put up 31 in the 2nd half of one game for most of of those 46.  So outside of that game they are averaging 5 pts/game. 

That's obviously not all on the OL, and I am not saying they need to use 1st rounders ,but they need to get that group to where they can block Philly and dallas. Those teams live off of line superiority on both sides of the ball.

Regardless of what they have spent in the past to draft sign or whatever else, the line stinks. 

I think you would agree it might be a little easier on the defense if the offense had scored even a couple of TDs in the 1st half of games. Especially given our DCs style of defense.

The secondary has two rookies starting.  They have some things to learn but given they are rookies they look pretty good.  We will see if they learn as they play, but personally I think the safeties are more of an issue.  McKinney looks like he regressed and Pinnock over pursues regularly.

Is the QB not changing calls part of the issue for the OL? Is it coaching?  Do you think this team, when healthy has 5 guys that are starting caliber OL?

I have to say their inability to pick up stunts and twists seems like a preparation issue, not ability.  Is that the coach or the players?  Or both?

This post is all over the place and long, sorry about that

[Rambo89]

Unless you build an all-time defense this team isnt winning many games scoring 11.5 pts/game. And let's face it, they put up 31 in the 2nd half of one game for most of of those 46.  So outside of that game they are averaging 5 pts/game. 

That's obviously not all on the OL, and I am not saying they need to use 1st rounders ,but they need to get that group to where they can block Philly and dallas. Those teams live off of line superiority on both sides of the ball.

Regardless of what they have spent in the past to draft sign or whatever else, the line stinks. 

I think you would agree it might be a little easier on the defense if the offense had scored even a couple of TDs in the 1st half of games. Especially given our DCs style of defense.

The secondary has two rookies starting.  They have some things to learn but given they are rookies they look pretty good.  We will see if they learn as they play, but personally I think the safeties are more of an issue.  McKinney looks like he regressed and Pinnock over pursues regularly.

Is the QB not changing calls part of the issue for the OL? Is it coaching?  Do you think this team, when healthy has 5 guys that are starting caliber OL?

I have to say their inability to pick up stunts and twists seems like a preparation issue, not ability.  Is that the coach or the players?  Or both?

This post is all over the place and long, sorry about that

Right now the Giants are being outscored 46-122 through 4 games.  They're 32nd in points scored and 30th in points allowed.  The defense has been just as much of an issue (though not as much Monday night) as the offense.  In the 49'ers game they couldn't get off the field on 3rd down.  It's hard for the offense to get into a rhythm if they are barely on the field.

I'm not trying to argue the offensive line isn't an issue that doesn't need to get fixed I am arguing that trying to fix it with more premium investments at the expense of other areas of need is not going to change much when you are as bad as they have been in all areas.

[DaveBrown74]

O line is definitely a big issue as we have only one tackle on the team who isn't horrible, and we have no good guards and a rookie center.

That said with thomas and schmitz in there it's less bad than without them, so as they get healthy things should improve. But sadly it looks like we're going to be in the market for a tackle again. Amazing that thats the case after using two top 10 picks on the position in just two years.

[Giant Jim]

I've been following the Giants since the late 60's and from '64 to about '83, they had the poorest offensive lines and about the worst records each year. From about the mid 70's to '83, including LT's first few seasons, they had a top defense and still lost. They started winning consistently around '84 when the offensive line came together and continued winning until George Young failed to keep it together in the early days of free agency. It took until after Eli Manning was here to build the line back.

Look at all the running backs that did well during the years of strong line play. Phil Simms blossomed when the line came together, Joe Morris too. Tom Coughlin was able to plug and play a number of different running backs. Look what Tiki Barber did with the mediocre lines he played with. Remember how he hit the holes on the right side? Barkley doesn't get holes any where close to what Barber had.

Offensive lines make defenses better. Running plays eat the clock and keep the D off the field. They're also safer than passing plays, can't have interceptions, tipped balls, fumbles from sacks, etc.

11 sacks last week? 22 in 4 games? Never, ever going to win like this.