https://x.com/jasrifootball/status/1777142731627708704?s=61&t=meiiQwOnGSoMsm66TJh5kQ
I'm guessing Hoge doesn't think much of the Carolina QB
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@jasrifootball
𝗧𝗥𝗘𝗡𝗗𝗜𝗡𝗚: Former #NFL fullback Merril Hoge says that Drake Maye will cost the job of whoever drafts him, via athlonsports.
"Drake Maye is the kind of player that will get you fired. Especially if you draft him in the top five or top three, he's going to get you fired. His last game was probably the most embarrassing display I've seen from a guy who is supposed to be an elite franchise quarterback. He's erratic. He's everywhere."
Every year QBs get talked up and talked down by talking heads in the run up to the draft. There is very little correlation between the consensus of commentary pre-draft and subsequent success or failure in the NFL. As a fullback Hoge spent much of his career with his face facing the ass of the QB. Let us leave it there.
Thank you Mr. 3.8 YPC and one TD every 3 games. It's too bad this provocative analysis didn't come out weeks ago. It would have saved everyone a lot of time and trouble. If anyone he should know best how to evaluate a JAG...
Quote from: londonblue on April 08, 2024, 02:40:01 PMEvery year QBs get talked up and talked down by talking heads in the run up to the draft. There is very little correlation between the consensus of commentary pre-draft and subsequent success or failure in the NFL. As a fullback Hoge spent much of his career with his ass facing the QB. Let us leave it there.
I think you meant facing the quarterbacks ass as the fullback lines up behind the quarterback. Further than that who cares? If the standard for having an opinion on a quarterback is to have been a quarterback in the NFL none of the current GM's wouldn't qualify neither would 90% of the current head coaches including Andy Reid. Hodge isn't alone in thinking Maye has bust written all over him. There is a former NFL quarterback who has done a break down of Maye on YouTube who pointed out serious flaws in his game that might make it difficult for him to have success.
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 08, 2024, 02:42:00 PMThank you Mr. 3.8 YPC and one TD every 3 games. It's too bad this provocative analysis didn't come out weeks ago. It would have saved everyone a lot of time and trouble. If anyone he should know best how to evaluate a JAG...
Come on Ed you should be better than that. He was a long time player in the NFL, which puts him in the top half of less than one percent of all people to ever play the game. Only in the American sports scene can someone look at someone that accomplished in his field and imply that he's a bum.
I did Mad but you got the point!
I dunno this would make me a bit nervous... I'm guessing Hoge gets more play now because of how well he called Manziel being a bust: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZXaEmS8zaQ . He was also right on CJ Stroud last year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLrHCw6RjcM .
Quote from: madbadger on April 08, 2024, 02:55:20 PMCome on Ed you should be better than that. He was a long time player in the NFL, which puts him in the top half of less than one percent of all people to ever play the game. Only in the American sports scene can someone look at someone that accomplished in his field and imply that he's a bum.
Call him what you want but he evaluated Maye based on one game. I know what I call that.
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 08, 2024, 03:21:01 PMCall him what you want but he evaluated Maye based on one game. I know what I call that.
Hoge compared Maye to Titans quarterback Malik Willis, who was a third-round pick in 2022 and is behind Will Levis on Tennessee's depth chart.
"Willis might be the only guy that I can think of that is as erratic as Maye," said Hoge, who was an ESPN analyst from 1996-2017 after the running back played eight seasons for the Steelers and Bears.
"I studied him for two years. I watched every one of his games last year. His last game against [North Carolina State] was probably the most embarrassing display I've seen from a guy who is supposed to be an elite franchise quarterback. He's erratic. He's everywhere."
https://nypost.com/2024/04/08/sports/taking-drake-maye-in-nfl-draft-will-get-you-fired-merril-hoge/
I have heard some compelling arguments against Drake Maye from quality analysts.
I believe it was one of the Simms that said something to the effect of- you need to make the layup throws, and then you add a few special throws a game.
There are some who feel Maye misses too many easy throws.
Greg Cosell was concerned about Maye's habit of drifting in the pocket, which makes it harder for the guys blocking for him.
Finally, Matt Waldman feels that there are issues with his processing where he passes on the easy throws, looking for the hard throws, and if the hard throw isn't there, it's too late to go back to the easy one. Matt thinks Maye needs to sit for a year and has him ranked as his 6th Qb
Much like JJ (especially earlier in the process), Maye seems like a polarizing prospect.
This QB draft class, while highly touted, doesn't seem all that clean.
https://www.nbcsportschicago.com/nfl/chicago-bears/bears-news/merril-hoge-dives-deeper-into-his-comments-about-caleb-williams-not-being-special/543309/?
https://www.giants.com/podcasts/giantshuddle
Here's Kurt Warner's take on the QBs and what he looks for when evaluating them. While not as " provocative" as the Hoge quote, he too seems leery of Maye. Though he doesn't come right out with one, I'm guessing his ranking would be Williams,Daniels,Penix, Nix, McCarthy, Maye
I have issue when someone comes out with a provocative and damaging statement about a kid who's worked hard to get to where he's gotten to today, on the weeks prior to the NFL draft. It's not play by play analysis or a discussion about pros and cons. It's basically calling the kid garbage, saying he's going to get some GM fired if he's drafted in the first round. Sensationalism to get a following.
It's not coming from some knuckleheads on a Bulletin Board fan site or some wanna be podcaster in his parent's basement. A former player who has some whiff of credibility.
I respect a balanced review from a former QB like Warner or Simms. They also understand the road that kid traveled and what lies ahead for him.
We all know the attributes and shortcomings of Drake Maye and Calib Williams, ad nauseam. We know it about all these QB's. What nobody knows is when they will be drafted and where they will go, what type of support and development they will receive and the effort and intestinal fortitude they will put forth. Their resiliency, leadership and face of the franchise they show to the fans, their teammates and coaches in good times and tough times.
Give these young men the respect they deserve. If you can't do that, then you don't deserve any respect as an analyst or journalist.
It's not the first time we've seen Hodge take a strongly negative view on a hyped up QB prospect:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZXaEmS8zaQ
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 08, 2024, 08:41:20 PMIt's not the first time we've seen Hodge take a strongly negative view on a hyped up QB prospect:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZXaEmS8zaQ
In particular, listen to what he is asked from 2:24 and listen to his answer. Very similar. Basically says anyone who takes Manziel is going to get fired within two years.
That was true, and that GM has never had an NFL GM job again 10 years after that pick.
I see the same sort of things in Maye. He's the only one of the top 4 QBs that I would legitimately be bummed about if the Giants took at 6. I wouldn't advise taking JJ at 6 but if they did I'd be excited to see what he could do. If they take Maye there wouldn't be any excitement. Just disappointment. Perhaps the most disappoint I've had on draft day since... well since they took Daniel Jones.
Happy to hear Maye is slipping. Hopefully he slips right on down to the Giants at 6!!!
Given Kurt Warner says he finds it impossible to evaluate how a college QB will transition to the pros I limit myself to red flag stuff on injuries, character etc. with these guys unless they just obviously lack an NFL arm or a functioning brain. Maye has an arm and a brain, but both sometimes misfire. Can that be coached up? If Kurt cannot say I surely can't.
This is what Schoen, Daboll et al get paid to figure out. There are signals that Maye is the guy they and others like and we are one of several teams trying to get to 3 to get him. In 16 days the smoke will disperse and we will know.
Lets not forget Merril Hoge was the guy that picked Brian Brohm over Aaron Rodgers.
Talking' Giants, Bobby Skinner breaks down Drake Maye.
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 10, 2024, 10:11:28 PMTalking' Giants, Bobby Skinner breaks down Drake Maye.
If you're sick of all the videos and podcasts, I recommend this one. Nice job Bobby. Fair, objective and astute.
I dont want this guy. His mechanics break down too easily.
Quote from: Philosophers on April 11, 2024, 08:28:23 AMI dont want this guy. His mechanics break down too easily.
What exactly do you mean by that? Be specific.
https://x.com/RealTannenbaum/status/1778403620263698637
Hoge's entire discussion on Maye and other QB prospects is here. The quotes were a bit out of context compared to his actual discussion
The Athletic published an article with quotes from current and former NFL people (GMs to former players/QBs)
Here were their comments on Maye
Current GM: People are going to pick Maye apart. If he ends up being the best of the group, it won't shock me. He is made of the right stuff.
Simms: If you watch 20 throws, you'll see good throws. Then ... the ball is all over the place. The decision-making can be all over the place, and the pocket presence is all over the place, let alone some mechanical flaws in how he throws the football. It (was) confirmed to me in his pro day, (which) was underwhelming. ... He's got all the size. He's pretty athletic when he runs. I always hear (Maye is) like Justin Herbert coming out or Josh Allen, and my brain wants to explode.
Scout 1: Maye reminds me a lot of Herbert.
Assistant coach: Maye is Herbert light. Take everything Herbert does and make it less. They'll be compared (because of the prototype size), but there's no comparison. I like Maye, but when I see the amount of work it will take to have him reach his potential, we'll be fired first.
Personnel executive 1: He scares the hell out of me. Longer thrower with a big arm but not quick release. Nothing feels like it happens in rhythm, and accuracy is average. Needs a year on the bench.
Former GM: He has accuracy you can't teach and is only scratching the surface with his upside while he physically matures. Wait for years two and three. If he progresses, he can end up like Troy Aikman.
https://theathletic.com/5375788/2024/04/11/nfl-draft-2024-top-quarterbacks/
A lot of the discussions on QBs in particular by the media forgets the golden rule of player evaluation (ignoring character side of things) as told to me by NFL employed family member.
Focus mainly on what they do well (physical and mental) that matters in your scheme.
Put what they do badly in perspective. Can you mitigate/improve?
Almost no QB can do everything equally well (not even Mahomes). The job of the coaches is to maximise the good and minimise the bad.
The magnitude of the good matters much more than the magnitude of the bad because you can mitigate many flaws but you cannot magically create strengths.
Maye's strengths are enormous. If they fit a team's scheme, situation (start day 1 vs sit and develop) and HC they will likely have him as QB2. If the strengths are not a good fit then the negatives/risk might have him 4-6. It is isn't that one team is smart/dumb. It is just fit.
In Maye's case he probably needs a team prepared to sit and work with him for a year. Being forced to start early might not be the path to success.
Quote from: londonblue on April 11, 2024, 11:21:57 AMA lot of the discussions on QBs in particular by the media forgets the golden rule of player evaluation (ignoring character side of things) as told to me by NFL employed family member.
Focus mainly on what they do well (physical and mental) that matters in your scheme.
Put what they do badly in perspective. Can you mitigate/improve?
Almost no QB can do everything equally well (not even Mahomes). The job of the coaches is to maximise the good and minimise the bad.
The magnitude of the good matters much more than the magnitude of the bad because you can mitigate many flaws but you cannot magically create strengths.
Maye's strengths are enormous. If they fit a team's scheme, situation (start day 1 vs sit and develop) and HC they will likely have him as QB2. If the strengths are not a good fit then the negatives/risk might have him 4-6. It is isn't that one team is smart/dumb. It is just fit.
In Maye's case he probably needs a team prepared to sit and work with him for a year. Being forced to start early might not be the path to success.
The NFL has demonstrated a less than 50% success rate in drafting round-one QBs. My own opinion is that NFL teams need to ask themselves (or screen prospects) the following:
1) Can we envision a scheme that the prospect can thrive in? Based on the perceived strengths, is there an NFL-caliber scheme that can make the most of the talent
2) Can that scheme also mask the QB's deficiencies? Can the same scheme that we envision for him also be adjusted to hide the prospect's weakness
3) Is our team prepared to develop a QB? Does the team have proper coaching, pass protection and receiving weapons to properly develop a drafted QB
4) Does the quarterback have the character, toughness, FB intelligence, and drive to be an NFL quarterback? Many a QB has flamed out due to lack of effort, annoying teammates, or simply not being able to handle the pressure of being an NFL starting QB
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 11, 2024, 08:37:55 AMWhat exactly do you mean by that? Be specific.
His accuracy plummets when he sets up to throw to one side then has to set up to other side because his initial read was not open.
He is much better when he throws to his primary first read.
All of this is most likely mute. Joe Schoen made it abundantly clear that he's not moving up to take a QB and the top four will most likely be gone by the time they pick. They have a lot of needs as he said. I don't need to make a 20-minute podcast to get that point out there.
Quote from: Philosophers on April 11, 2024, 11:52:27 AMHis accuracy plummets when he sets up to throw to one side then has to set up to other side because his initial read was not open.
He is much better when he throws to his primary first read.
Did you watch Bobby Skinner's review?
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 11, 2024, 11:59:28 AMDid you watch Bobby Skinner's review?
No. I just went by what I saw when I watched some of his games.
Not only does Mike Lombardi theorize the Giants want Drake Maye. On his last podcast, he said he heard from reliable sources the Giants want Drake Maye
I know most have made up their minds they don't like Drake Maye, but I guess I am in the minority on him. I'd be extremely excited if he became a Giant.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 12, 2024, 05:24:08 PMI know most have made up their minds they don't like Drake Maye, but I guess I am in the minority on him. I'd be extremely excited if he became a Giant.
I don't know but from what I've read, I'm left with the impression that both Maye and McCarthy are equally polarizing. If Schoen and Co. take a QB at 6 (regardless of who) I would be excited for the future and pray to God they got the right guy
Drake Maye, North Carolina
Most frequent scout/exec comps: Josh Allen (with less arm strength), Carson Wentz
Teams that place high value on physical traits in their quarterback evaluation will love Maye, who is the classic upside play with high boom-or-bust potential. "Extremely gifted athlete, best size of all the guys -- confident he's still developing with enormous upside," said an NFC exec of the 6-foot-4, 223-pound Maye. "Can make all of the throws and is a very good athlete to create on his own as a runner and passer. Highly competitive. He's got star potential."
Maye helped elevate a subpar supporting cast to produce 359 plays of 10-plus yards since 2022, second to Michael Penix Jr. in the FBS. While some evaluators place him in Tier 1, above Daniels and on par with Williams, others knocked him for lack of refinement.
"Huge upside, but way more of a project than he appears to be," an NFL coordinator said. "Footwork all over the place, same with his eyes. Kind of just makes plays off raw talent and athleticism. Thought he would be much more polished."
Multiple coaches say Maye flourishes while creating off schedule but not often enough when on time, with one pointing out: "I've got a 50-play cut-up of him dropping back, seeing an open window and taking off to run."
To be sure, Maye underwent coordinator changes at North Carolina and didn't have enough support at the receiver and offensive line spots. His running ability is a premium, with shades of Allen, though his arm strength isn't considered on par with Allen or Justin Herbert -- "good but not that good," as one AFC scout put it, who rated it at a seven out of 10. Maye throws an impressive deep ball, particularly on post routes, coaches say.
"He does need some time, and there will be growing pains, but you take him because he has the most upside of everybody," one high-ranking NFL personnel man said. "There's major ability there. I worry that if you take him and you don't have a supporting cast and a good offensive line or receivers and he has to play right away, he will struggle early."
Multiple evaluators pointed out Minnesota is the perfect place for Maye in that regard, should the Vikings move up to get him. Scouts noted he's smart, relaxed and even witty in interviews.
"Super competitive and will rush for 400 to 500 yards a year," an AFC scout said. "He's just never played big in big moments, doesn't have that signature win to elevate his team, though he wasn't always in the position to provide that."
https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/39914870/2024-nfl-draft-quarterback-tiers-scouts-executives-caleb-williams-jayden-daniels-drake-maye
Quote from: Rosehill Jimmy on April 12, 2024, 05:46:03 PMI don't know but from what I've read, I'm left with the impression that both Maye and McCarthy are equally polarizing. If Schoen and Co. take a QB at 6 (regardless of who) I would be excited for the future and pray to God they got the right guy
I agree. There is no other option other than prolonging QB hell.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 16, 2024, 12:00:08 PM"He does need some time, and there will be growing pains, but you take him because he has the most upside of everybody," one high-ranking NFL personnel man said. "There's major ability there. I worry that if you take him and you don't have a supporting cast and a good offensive line or receivers and he has to play right away, he will struggle early."
That doesn't sound like a great fit for any recent version of the Giants. Except he wouldn't have to play right away. But the Giants haven't shown the ability to supply a QB with "a supporting cast and a good offensive line or receivers" no matter WHEN he has to play.
Giants will definitely take a QB in 1st round if for no other reason it will ensure some added years of job security for the GM and possibly the Head coach also