Big Blue Huddle

I'm going a little conspiracy theory on this take...

Because of the tension between Daboll and Wink, maybe Wink didn't want to play any more of Daboll's 'guys' from Buffalo.

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 09:52:58 AMI guess that is where we differ.  I see examples of DJs being capable of being franchise QB.  I think his performance against the Vikings and even his record-setting performance against the Cards last season showed that he can be that franchise QB.   Of course, showing flashes and doing it consistently are two separate things.  Everyone sees things a bit differently, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I think that's the difference between being a franchise QB and not.

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 09:38:33 AMTim,

You know I choose my words carefully.  Do you think "a sense" is the same as knowing?  When I use the words "a sense," one is less than certain.   When one is less than certain, it should limit the strength of one's statements.   I have always held the position that we can't be certain about DJ being a bust and that there is still some potential (admittedly a bit of a long shot at this point) that he can even prove to be a franchise QB.   

Speaking strictly about *our* conversations, I never said he was a bust but I also said that he has not shown any traces or tendencies of being a franchise QB. He's the very definition of an average QB who is not capable of putting his team on his back and dragging them to a victory. He can get 7-9 wins but doesn't offer anything to get 12-15. He is a step down from Ryan Tannehill but with legs.

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 09:30:59 AMTim,

I think there is a nuance on this issue.  In a dysfunctional environment, every, or nearly every, QB will look bad.   In a poor environment, people should factor in the poor environment (many do not).

More importantly, the ability to properly evaluate a quarterback is really the purview of that quarterback's coaching staff.  As Daboll once said, people don't know the play calls.  An apparent open receiver may be meaningless because they ran the wrong route.   The fact of the matter is that we can get a sense of QB play by watching the games (or better yet, reviewing the all-22 with an informed eye), but no one outside the organization can evaluate with a strong degree of certainty (lacking the play calls and the QB's instructions).

And this is where we have and continue to disagree. No need to rehash it. Just thought it was curious that you said "I believe even with disparate support, we can get a sense of how good another QB is", which is exactly why I and others have been saying.

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 09:19:32 AMI will admit that some of that is assuming that Jones is healthy and will get a chance to operate in at least a minimally supportive NFL quarterback environment this season.  Plus, we have 2022, where DJ did operate in a less-than-ideal, but at least not dysfunctional (like 2023) environment.  Much like Schoen and Daboll were able to evaluate Jones enough in 2022 to give him his big contract.

I have been saying this every single year Jones has been in the league: he can be evaluated despite what support he has or doesn't have around him. I got a lot of pushback from you and others saying that it was too difficult to evaluate him because of the lack of quality NFL support.

Seems to me the ability to evaluate a player is subjective.

Quote from: kartanoman on Today at 09:15:08 AMP.S. Joe Schoen revealed his draft strategy and went with plan 1B (Nabers) after taking a crack at 1A (Trading up with NE for pick 3). I think his intent was clear regarding Jones' replacement vs. giving him a real receiver plus fixing the offensive line this off-season.

100% this.

I also wanted to get a replacement for Jones but my caveat was that it had to be someone Schoen and Daboll had the utmost confidence in that he could be the franchise QB for the next 10-15 years. They made a play for him and it didn't work. And I'm 100% OK with how the draft shook out for us.

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 09:12:21 AMTim,

I can't disagree with your sentiment.   I will say, though, if you don't like being second-guessed, being an NFL GM (or head coach) is the wrong career choice.  Being an armchair GM/HC/QB is part of the fun of being a fan.

As a fan, and in general, I try not to engage in it. It's self-defeatist, in my opinion.

I'm pretty sure all GMs and coaches know being second-guessed by fans and the media are a part of the job. They expect it and it probably doesn't phase them.

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 09:10:20 AMI don't think that will be the case. I assume you put me in the "pro-Jones" camp.  I believe even with disparate support, we can get a sense of how good another QB is.

            

1) No

2) No

3) No

Playing the hindsight game is pointless, IMO. Decisions are made with as much information that is available at that time. He made what he thought were the best choices for this team given the many circumstances. He, and we as fans, will live with those decisions. Anybody can sit back and second-guess and we all can sit behind our keyboards with zero pressure and say what we would do. But put us in the spotlight and on the hot seat and things look a lot different.

What's done is done. We press forward and move on.

If one of the three QBs that Schoen (and Mara) passed on has an outstanding season, here's what's going to happen here at the BBH:

- There will be a litany of "I told you so" threads from folks who wanted to move on from Jones
- There will be a ton of pushback from Jones supporters saying, "It's only one season. Daniel had a great 2022 and won a playoff game."
- There will be the same regurgitated arguments for and against Jones. The horse will be resuscitated to only be beaten to death again. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I prefer to evaluate them week to week, after they play the games. Every week brings new challenges and there's absolutely no way of knowing in May how this team will look against competition in September. Like Painter, I don't care for all the prognostications and rankings and B&M when a game has yet to be played.

I'm looking forward to the season, as I am every season. I'm hopeful and optimistic about the team overall. I also have no delusions of grandeur and will wait to see how things shape up to start the season.

Why the rush? Games don't start until September.

There is a human element in this game called football. If Schoen is good with letting Waller figure out his future, I'm fine. It ain't costing me anything to let him figure out what he wants to do.

Quote from: Ed Vette on April 30, 2024, 07:23:39 AMOnce Maye was off the table, I think Alt was the guy. Although I don't think they ever had serious intentions of trading the farm for Maye.

That would have ruined the draft for me. As much as I want to have the offensive line fixed, I think we have enough pieces already to see a significant improvement. It would have been putting all the eggs in the same basket.

I got one foot in the "Cautiously Optimistic" lane and the other in the "I'll Believe It When I See It" lane.

For me, it all hinges on Bricillo and what he can do with his guys up front. My second area of concern/interest is the running game. I don't picture a drastic fall off in production collectively from previous seasons. I actually think as a group, the production will be significantly better.

Quote from: LennG on April 29, 2024, 12:16:05 PMI was going to start another thread on a thought I had, but let's run it hear.

Many people have said and it is true, that Eli started out very poorly also. Thinking, about what really helped Eli become a much better QB, Plax and his ability to catch all the misguided passes that Eli threw to him. I'm sure there were many, but mostly I remember Plax using all his 6'whatever frame and arms to haul in many passes that were overthrown, underthrown, etc. Could Nabers be the Palx for Jones?
Most know and I won't deny it, I would like anyone other than Jones to be our QB, but he is our QB and I would never root for him to fail. If Nabers can do for Jones what Palx did for Eli, maybe there is hope out there.

Very good perspective, Len. I know you wouldn't root for him to fail.

But call me and tell me your REAL thoughts! 

I also want to see Jones healthy first, and then playing lights out. Quite honestly, I'm hopeful that he plays well but not very optimistic. Like you, I will be rooting for him to prove me wrong.

Quote from: katkavage on April 29, 2024, 11:02:17 AMSchoen is on the line with the QB as well. They are tied together (even though he never drafted him). If it goes bad for Jones, it reflects poorly on Schoen. While if it goes very good for him, Schoen shines.

I partially agree, mostly because he did ultimately give him the contract. However, I think Mara was behind it. I think Schoen would have been OK letting Jones test the market and come back with a "match it" opportunity. Because Mara wanted to keep Jones, the compromise was the 2-year out.

I don't think there is one fan who believes Schoen is all-in on Jones. I don't think the stink will be on Schoen if Jones doesn't live up to the expectations, whatever they may be. If nothing else, the cries for a new QB will be even louder.