Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 08, 2024, 10:08:45 AMThough it wasn't broadcast in the headlines of news stories, the Giants' ST squad was poor the last few seasons. Fans knew it, but it was a side-note in the news. Apparently, judging by the changes, Schoen decided to fix it...knock on wood

Some of the changes I've noticed:

- Fired STC Thomas McGaughey and hired new STC Michael Ghobrial

- Resigned Gunner Olszewski (and true to his name, is a "gunner") who was our best gunner on STs since the retirement of David Tyree. Olszewski is also our punt returner, but that could change after the addition of WR/RB Tracy in the draft

- Signed Miles Boykin, one of the best gunners in the NFL...but as you know, we need two gunners, one on each side of the field

- Signed former Indianapolis Colts wide receiver Isaiah McKenzie, on a cheap 1-yr contract. Should promote competition at the punt return spot between him and Olszewski (and probably Tracy)

- Resigned Carter Coughlin, our best STs player who led the team with nine tackles last season and has earned a reputation as a hard hitter https://www.giants.com/video/carter-coughlin-s-hit-stick-tackle-ends-patriot-kick-return-giants-vs-patriots-h

- Drafted shifty Tyrone Tracy as a RB, but is targeted to also be a returner who could be especially effective under the new kickoff rules

- Bryce Ford-Wheaton has spent the year and off-season practicing to make the STs squad as a "jammer" and possibly a "gunner"...he is apparently taking STs very seriously

- Drafted Darius Muasau who is known to be a special teams ace and an "unrelenting" attacker. He also played for our new STC Ghobrial. He is said to be an extremely hard hitter and a "film rat"

- hopefully, Graham Gano is back and in top shape as our place kicker

- Jamie Gillan "the Scottish Hammer" made impressive improvement last season and should be in even better shape this coming season

I'm sure there are other behind the scenes changes being made, but it certainly appears that Schoen and Daboll have not ignored the problem of the "Third Team", for which we have sucked, and have taken it very seriously to upgrade across the board. I suspect the biggest change is probably putting in a whole new system designed by our new STC Ghobrial

 

Great post and topic! Thanks for putting it together. Been thinking a lot about this and have many of the same thoughts.

I like the new coaching staff. I like how the return game is coming together. I like the focus on gunners and standout ST tacklers.

My one big concern is with the 2 kickers. Gano's return from injury at his age is definitely a concern. And I'm just not high on Gillan. Too inconsistent for my liking.

But if the return and coverage units can perform, I'll be happy.

It's really amazing, but in a few short years our WR corps went from being one of the worst units on the team to hands down the deepest. Kudos to Schoen!

Nabers / Hyatt
Slayton / Hodgins / A. Robinson
W. Robinson / McKenzie

That's a unit you can be competitive with. It's a unit that allows ST-types like Gunner and Boykin to focus on ST. In year's past, these types were getting meaningful snaps on offense.

DJ and Daboll get most of the press in terms of "pressure's on now," but I actually feel like it's Kafka we should be talking about in that context. He MUST develop strong gameplans that effectively use the talent available if he wants to stay on his current HC trajectory.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 07, 2024, 07:37:11 PMThe call stood up to the challenge. Refs make mistakes all the time in real time, but it's hard to believe an NBA playoff ref didn't understand the NBA rule book when he was watching the play frame-by-frame on a close up replay. If an infraction was not committed there, it seems extremely likely the ref would have seen that in the replay and overturned it.

As for willfully allowing a clear infraction just because it's the final minute or two of a close game, that's a matter of fan opinion and a controversial subject. I understand the spirit of that argument, but it's a slippery slope if you just start allowing anything to happen just because it's late. Which rules should get enforced and which shouldn't?

None of that makes it a good call in the final seconds of a playoff basketball game that had been officiated pretty loosely up until that point - as playoffs games should be.

Who knows if the Pacers would have made a shot or won the game had that call not been made. But that's the point. We'll never know, because the refs took that away from the teams and the fans.
It was a ticky tack call, and those types of calls shouldn't be how playoff games end. Let the players decide it.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on May 07, 2024, 02:16:58 PMI'm curious how you can say this with authority when we have numerous instances of Daboll showing and voicing frustration with Jones (sideline and post-game comments, respectively), Schoen built an out into Jones's contract after 2 years, and Schoen literally just tried to trade up for Maye? I'd even somewhat agree with your second statement, but it's difficult for me to get on board with your conclusions given that I think the inputs are at odds with what has transpired over last season and this past draft cycle.

That's fair. But they gave him a contact extension. Yes, there's an out to give them flexibility, but they would not have signed him if they didn't think they could win with him. And signing a guy who has started 5 games in the last 3 seasons doesn't change things, IMO.

And yes, the rumors of trading up for Maye are telling. But what does it really say? That they really liked Maye? Yes. But not necessarily that they don't like DJ. Had that been the case, then they would have drafted JJ at 6 or tried to trade down for him, Penix or Nix if they were really low on DJ. I don't think we can call really liking a guy (Maye) an indictment of DJ when they didn't feel the need to draft any of the other 3 first round QBs available.

And I don't consider Daboll bitching a sign of anything. That's his m.o. LOL

It's clear that Daboll / Schoen have a much higher opinion of DJ's abilities than the majority of the fan base. So it's not likely that Lock will be a legit threat to win the job early.

But, there are several reasons why it could - or maybe even should - happen over time.

1. DJ should have a short leash if he continues to "see ghosts," is unwilling to take shots down the field, takes unnecessary sacks, turns the ball over too much, etc.

2. DJ should have a short leash if he shows that he's not recovered from his ACL or if he plays scared due to his neck injury.

3. DJ should have a short leash due to the injury provisions in his contract.

#1 is the least likely, for the reasons above re: Daboll / Schoen's opinion. #3 is probably next least likely, as the Giants have typically avoided morally questionable practices relative to their players. So it leaves #2. I could see them pulling him in favor of Lock if he just doesn't look healthy. Let's pray that it doesn't happen due to another injury.

That offensive foul call at the end was pretty terrible. You have aggressive playoff basketball being played for 47 minutes+, all for the refs to decide the game at the end.

It was such a great back and forth battle and great game. Just wish the players could have determined the outcome.

It's all going to come down to DJ and the offensive line.

I think the WRs will be fine. I think the running game will be middling but will be just enough to keep teams honest.

But I'm not as sold on the OL additions, and I have little to no hope of Neal improving - better OL coach or not. So if that unit continues to fail, then there's a real possibility the Giants are a bottom 5 offense.

And then with DJ, he needs to stay healthy first and foremost. And if healthy, he needs to play with confidence and he needs to be willing to take calculated risks. If he fails to do that, the Giants will be a bottom 5 offense. If we turn to Lock early enough in the year, I could see them being a bottom 10 offense.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on May 04, 2024, 06:20:57 PMThere is more than ZERO evidence.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/nfl/article-12691269/NFL-Trade-Deadline-Giants-star-Saquon-Barkley-draws-DeAndre-Hopkins-coy-possible-deal-Broncos-good-offer-wide-receiver-Jerry-Jeudy.html

Again, "interest" and "offers" are 2 different things. To Mighty's and others' point earlier, had someone offered a 3rd rounder, you can bet those details would have leaked. But that never happened.

Like Doc said, GM's do their due diligence on a ton of guys all the time. That's their job. That would be construed as "interest".

But that's a far cry from saying unequivocally that the Giants failed in trading Saquon. Maybe someone did try to lowball them and offered a 5th. Would that have been a failure in not accepting that?

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 05:58:24 PMThe season itself was a total nightmare. And so were all the optics involved, whether Barkley was there or not.

Foregoing opportunities to try to better the team's future for the purposes of clinging to a defunct season and keeping up appearances is a typical move by this franchise and one of the reasons it can't pull itself up off the mat.

This is my issue. You state it as fact that they received trade offers for him and turned them down, when there is zero evidence that it happened.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 12:39:40 PMThe Giants got a 2nd round pick for Leonard Williams.  Do you honestly believe they couldn't get a 3rd or 4th for Barkley?

Yes, I honestly believe there was no one willing to give up a 3rd or 4th for one of the least valued positions in football and for a guy who can't stay healthy and needed to be signed to a contract extension.

I don't see OBJ having an impact. They have 2 guys who will dominate targets, they have a couple of solid slot guys in Berrios and Cracraft, and they have a legit pass catching TE in Smith.

They would have been better served spending that money on their DL.

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on May 04, 2024, 12:20:28 PMNo that's another incorrect assumption on your part. I won't speak for anyone else. My position is if Schoen called every GM of every contending team (excluding those with a healthy and premier RB) and no one wanted to give up a mid-round pick for Barkley, then Schoen did his job. However, if Schoen didn't do that then he failed to do the due diligence needed to create a market. Normally when you make calls to 12-18 GMs, there are numerous leaks that you're shopping the player. Since I didn't see reporting that that was the case, I'm assuming Schoen didn't do the work needed to create a market for a talented player.

That's not what you said, though, and that's not what I opined on. Your statement was that "there absolutely was a market for Barkley."

And your last post is a good example of why my opinion is that perspective is off base. There are a whole lot of "ifs" and "normally" and "I'm assuming" for it to be the basis of a definitive statement that Schoen failed.

It was never intended to be a personal attack. Simply an opinion.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 12:09:07 PMI have seen you criticize front office decisions numerous times and have strong views on what a front office should or should not do. As I see it, there is absolutely zero wrong with that - it's part of being a passionate fan - but it seems a bit pot/kettle to be putting down other fans with "armchair GM" labels when they do precisely the same thing.

When did I ever suggest that I'm not an armchair GM like everyone else? Further, there's a big difference in having an opinion on whether a guy should have been signed or not or who the right starter should be vs. making definitive statements that the Giants failed in not trading someone when there's no evidence to suggest that any team was willing to trade for him. 2 completely different things.

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on May 04, 2024, 12:04:34 PMNo you just made a definitive statement about the different markets as if you aren't every bit an armchair GM  who isn't speculating as much as anyone else. You don't know what they could've gotten for Barkley at the time. As others have pointed out, it's fair to think a playoff team would've given up a pick for him. Yet you seem to think that's an unreasonable take?

Maybe you should go back and read the posts. I clearly said the assumption of a market wasn't a good one. That is far from definitive. I did not say the assumption was wrong.

Whereas you were the one with the definitive claim that "there was a market". And then act as if I attacked you personally simply by pointing out my opinion on the assumptions made.

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on May 04, 2024, 11:45:08 AMUnlike you. A REAL general manager. You have special insights no doubt. Smh.

Give me a break. I'm not the one claiming that a mistake was made when there is 0 evidence to suggest there was a single team with any interest in trading a draft pick for him. In fact, the evidence suggests the opposite.