Do you feel Daniel Jones can win with the Giants, if we build the right team around him? Apparently there was a survey that said that 76% of the franchise fans voted to move on from Jones while 24% voted to keep him. So 25% of the fans still have some belief that Jones can be the face of the franchise. I don't think Jones is solely the problem, to me he is part of the problem. The list goes on and on to why the Giants are so dysfunctional right now.
I found this interesting on Reddit
Does anyone NOT believe in Daniel Jones as much as me?
https://www.reddit.com/r/NYGiants/comments/18t4ybv/does_anyone_not_believe_in_daniel_jones_as_much/?rdt=48237
The responses are similar to what has been said here, he is one of them:
I certainly don't think he's a franchise QB worthy of the contract he received. I would say 67-75% percentile of starters. Top of the bottom third. I think he can win with a super stacked team.
He's an incredible athlete, almost along the lines of Lamar Jackson. This makes up for a lot of his shortcomings. He can get in a groove and ball out every once and a while.
The problem is, ignoring his injury history which makes it worse, is this:
The game moves slightly too fast for him. This causes an inability to keep his eyes downfield and an inability to improvise outside of the pocket. If a play breaks down, which is going to happen a lot with that OLine, he's running or sacked. The attempt to remedy the issues with fumbling has made this worse. His internal alarm goes off so quick in order to avoid getting stripped. Plays can't develop when your clock is that quick. His pocket presence has improved, but is still mediocre. He cannot step up and make a throw because his eyes were not downfield.
We have seen his best play. His good quarters, not games because he hasn't played an entire game dominantly, are too few and far between. He can't break a game with his talent, and he can't carry a team or elevate the play of others. I will also add that he makes an already bad OLine look worse.
"The guy"? No. I would say 2023 firmly closed the door on that, if it was still even slightly ajar. Even if people want to cling to the fantasy of him being a good QB someday, I don't see how "the guy" can ever be someone who gets seriously injured as frequently as he does.
He is a more mobile Ryan Tannehill. Right pieces around him and he can succeed. Not a difference maker.
Quote from: nicky1000 on March 29, 2024, 11:21:05 AMHe is a more mobile Ryan Tannehill.
That's a huge compliment for Jones.
Jones' best year (2022) didn't come close to Tannehill's best years.
Yes, I am one of those guys who believe DJ could still be "the one". I haven't lost faith in DJ or our GM and Coach, who I believe know far, far more than me or any of the fans. If Schoen opts to get one of the top QBs in this draft, then I'll concede that DJ is probably not the one, but until then...absolutely believe in Daniel Jones as a top flight QB for the future
As a side note: I am a self-proclaimed homer and live up to that moniker. I do not follow the whims of fans who are quick to throw out the baby with the bath. The USS Giants is listing, but Captain Schoen can right the ship IMHO
How can anyone judge anyone behind one of the 2 worst OLs in NFL History? That's like judging the strength of the U.S. Navy on December 7th when all hell broke loose.
I just cannot get past his neck injuries. That is not going away. One unlucky hit and it might be career ending. I cannot have faith in a guy when I see that risk. We can rehash all the old arguments about his play vs OL/WR issues but to me valid though talent/football IQ concerns might be they are a distant second to his physical fragility.
I think that 26 .percent who.wants to keep.him
Might of thought that it meant this year
I think he will be pretty successful once he gets away from the Giants. He's the poster boy for how important the development environment is. He has yet to have the opportunity to play behind a minimally adequate OL and throw to WRs that are better than mediocre. Some like to say those are excuses and that he needs everything perfect to be successful, but personally I think that is hogwash. The poor OL is a reason for Barkley but an excuse for Jones? And so far his supporting cast has been so far from "perfect" that I find that narrative laughable, considering that he has never even been surrounded by a half decent supporting cast.
The injury issue is a concern, but a lot of players get injured and are able to bounce back. If he is one of them I still think he has a good chance to be a very good QB for a team that is not perfect or super stacked but is reasonably competent in their OL and WRs, something he has never had with the Giants.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on March 29, 2024, 11:04:16 AMDoes anyone NOT believe in Daniel Jones as much as me?
brownE: I'm still with you, although not as strongly in the Jones camp as in prior years.
At this point in time, Jones MUST take a share of blame (although there's plenty to go around) for under-performance during his career.
Also, there are medical reasons to strongly consider moving on (in my opinion with no inside info on his health).
Bob
At the end of '22 I thought he had the chance to improve and grow into a full route tree type QB.
About week 3 last year, it dawned on me that this is not a long term solve at QB.
Not all his fault, but once you start seeing ghosts you're heading to a place from where there is no return.
It's time to move on IMVHO
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Count me as a believer in DJ. I just hope that through years of bad O lines and hit after hit, his mental and physical condition is not damaged for good. Through ineptitude, they were not fair to the kid... at least he got paid.
I think the trust Daboll showed in him in 2022 at critical times, and the fact that he would not promise competition for the starting job to QBs seeking a landing spot in New York, tells me Daboll sees something in him.
I hope he's right.
Quote from: londonblue on March 29, 2024, 11:46:42 AMI just cannot get past his neck injuries. That is not going away. One unlucky hit and it might be career ending. I cannot have faith in a guy when I see that risk. We can rehash all the old arguments about his play vs OL/WR issues but to me valid though talent/football IQ concerns might be they are a distant second to his physical fragility.
This is the main issue; the second neck injury shattered all confidence in his ability to stay healthy. The people who have been criticizing Jones for years will try to make it about talent, but you can't win games from the trainer's table.
In answer to this specific question "Do you feel Daniel Jones can win with the Giants, if we build the right team around him?". I say definitely yes!
But, it goes much deeper than that simple question.
For the next 5 years can he stay on the field? Given his injury track record, I think the FO needs to protect themselves here and draft the next Giants QB. Probably not this year, or at least not in the early rounds, because you are needing to "build the right team around" DJ. You made that investment in him.
The real issue I see for the future of this team is that you cannot afford to swing and miss in this draft. We have to strike gold this draft or we will be looking at a few more down years. I think you need an A or A+ draft.
That question is so vague is doesn't even bear answering. "Can the Giants win" - win what? A Superbowl? A playoff game? A regular season game? They've done 2 of those with Jones. If the question is can they win a Superbowl with him - probably not - but there are Hall of Fame quarterbacks who we can say the same of.
It's not even remotely the right question to be asking. The financials and implications around cutting a player loom large and most fans seem to want to forget that the salary cap exists. The only question is "Should the Giants cut Jones after 2024 and should they draft his successor this year"? We're about to find out on both.
The responder on REDDIT interpreted percentiles backwards. 67th percentile means he's in the top third of QBs which he most definitely is not. I would agree with the 35th percentile or so which puts him atop the bottom third. He has won a playoff game and played well in it. Certainly he can run and I did feel he was more or less tough until recent injuries likely broke him. He was able to protect the ball in his good year. He belongs in the league.
However I never thought he was a good passer, average maybe. He isn't terribly accurate and I don't think he reads defenses or routes well, has little pocket awareness. While the offensive line didn't do him favors, I saw these problems even with protection much like I saw other QBs manage the offense more competently. He never should have gotten that contract. I would also add I don't think JJ is the guy either. The scouting reports are pretty consistent on him being a reach even if he has a strong arm. I think going that route is another mistake, but would be glad to be proven wrong.
I like Jones ... but his injuries worry me .... And I know ACL injuries are not as bad as they used to be .... But his best feature was running .... So now that's a question mark
Do I think jones can lead a team lets say if the Giants were built like the niners deep into the playoffs and compete ..... YES I do
But not this team .... And this team is nowhere near to being built like the niners
So to me this is his last season to prove anything ....
That being said I think imo is the only way to move on from qb via draft is if one of the top 3 QBs drop in the draft to us
I don't believe giving up the farm or even a second round pick for that
And I still don't believe JJ is worth the farm or even the #6 pick
Get MHJ/Nabers/Odunze build the team as a whole and see where we land next season.
And now we hopefully/finally also have a WR1 and for the love of god an average O-line for Jones not to be excused anymore
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 29, 2024, 01:54:19 PMThis is the main issue; the second neck injury shattered all confidence in his ability to stay healthy. The people who have been criticizing Jones for years will try to make it about talent, but you can't win games from the trainer's table.
My support for Jones has waned with every passing season. My issue with him was never about talent; it was about performance. Yes, I know he relies heavily upon the 5 guys in front of him but I've seen enough of him when he has had protection. He's serviceable... not spectacular. He doesn't have that "rally the troops" mentality. I want that in my QB.
Any human playing a contact sport,who has had a neck injury,and continues to want to play that sport,is loose in the head..Anyone remember Daryl Stingley? Got paralised and in a wheelchair for the rest of his life.
Maybe Jones should call Daryl.
I think Jones is capable enough if the O Line has improved, and a #1 WR is drafted..If the O LINE is still bad,he should hold a clip board,and mentor the young QB's and become a coach..Great job,and your still one of the boys on the team..
Can, is one thing; will, is quite another. For me, it's almost a moot point as it would take something I am not expecting including DJ starting for the entire season, and winning a PO game for the Giants to invest the huge residual balance of his deal beyond this year. Then again, Eli beating Brady & Co twice certainly doesn't foreclose the possibility.
Cheers!
Has he done anything to warrant the contract he received? No, beating a historically bad Vikings team wasn't it.
Has he earned the right to be a starter? No, name one reason why he should be handed the job, I'll wait.
At any point in time Has he produced at an elite level?
Never
Has he lifted the team and carried them to wins? No never, the defense more often than not did the heavy lifting
He hasn't even been the face of the franchise in his time here.
I would honestly love for someone to name a reason or two why he should automatically be the starter and not have to compete? The only acceptable answer would be because they are letting the future at qb sit and learn.
killarich right after I posted I was thinking about The Niners too. I find Brock Purdy a nice guy to cheer for, but also their weakness. Certainly not a QB I would build around. I definitely could see Jones being interesting on a stacked team like that and for his sake, maybe that happens. By the time Schoen constructs a roster like that, even it's even possible, it will be too late for Jones if it isn't already now.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 29, 2024, 01:54:19 PMThis is the main issue; the second neck injury shattered all confidence in his ability to stay healthy. The people who have been criticizing Jones for years will try to make it about talent, but you can't win games from the trainer's table.
Hi Rich
@MightyGiants . The neck IS a concern. I don't know, but we're you able to dig up any details as to the extent of this second injury, and if it compounded any impact from his first? I could have sworn I heard they were different "types" of injuries; however, you don't have to be a neurologist to understand what nerve damage in/around the cervical spine column can do to an individual.
Daniel Jones is behind a large enough eight-ball, as it is, without considering what could happen should he incur another injury to that area.
But getting back to the question asked on this thread, the fact that the Giants were given a Murderer's Row schedule, to open the season, was probably not the most fair means of evaluating him; especially when issues on the rest of the team contributed to their early season demise. But, to the point of the QB being your leader to step up and change the course of the team's fate by his play, we've seen Simms do it. We've seen Hostetler, Collins and Manning do it. We might have seen Dave Brown do it a couple of times in 1994. We witnessed Kent Graham do it for four games in 1998 starting with taking down the undefeated Broncos. But has Daniel Jones had one of those death-defying periods that lasted more than one game? His first full game was pretty awesome, as was his second. One could argue that he had a hand in the 6-1 start in '22, and helped get them in the playoffs, but that's as far as the sky appears to go for him unless he proves everyone wrong this coming year.
But can we say the Giants improved the supporting cast around him? Let's see how Round 1 in the draft plays out and I think there-in lies the answer.
To be continued ...
Peace!
Quote from: kartanoman on March 29, 2024, 10:59:17 PMBut getting back to the question asked on this thread, the fact that the Giants were given a Murderer's Row schedule, to open the season, was probably not the most fair means of evaluating him; especially when issues on the rest of the team contributed to their early season demise.
It also didn't help that Daboll ran a powder puff training camp, and our esteemed OL coach kept playing mix and match and never settled on a starting 5 so they could gel together.
He is destined to be a backup. A backup who can win. He is Jeff Hostetler. That is not a knock on either. It's what he is.
I have almost zero confidence at the end of a half or a game that he can drive down the field. When he does it is too few and far between and everything looks hurried and erratic.
Add in the fact he is an injury machine and it's almost certain the answer is no
Quote from: Trench on March 30, 2024, 01:59:11 AMHe is destined to be a backup. A backup who can win. He is Jeff Hostetler. That is not a knock on either. It's what he is.
I have almost zero confidence at the end of a half or a game that he can drive down the field. When he does it is too few and far between and everything looks hurried and erratic.
Add in the fact he is an injury machine and it's almost certain the answer is no
" He is Jeff Hostetler. "
You should only wish.
Two pluses for Jones is that he can run . Maybe not as well as Josh Allen but enough that opposing defensive coordinators have to plan for that. Secondly, but maybe not as important is that he is smart. He graduated from Duke with a degree in economics .
I am 81 years old and have been following the Giants and football for 60 years .
I know this has been said ad nauseum but I will repeat it . I don't care who your QB is or what team you are playing for , you cannot suceed in the NFL unless you have a really good offensive line . They don't have to be 5 All Pros but they have to work in full coordination with each other. They have to know exactly what the other 4 atre doing at all time.
Jones has never had that. He has been rushed and hit too many times . It seems that the OL has been up graded for 2024 but I have no idea how good or bad they will be. If I knew , and I don't , that Joe Ault could turn out to be an eventual All Pro at right tackle I would draft him at number 6 . He did come to Notre Dame as a tight end.
While they are both guards, both Quenton Nelson and Zack Martin were first round picks and have become perennial All Pros .
THe great Tim Russert said "Florida, Florida. Florida "!!. If he were here today he would ," Offensive line, offensive line , Offensive line " !!!
Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on March 31, 2024, 10:29:35 AMWhile they are both guards, both Quenton Nelson and Zack Martin were first round picks and have become perennial All Pros .
Great players, for sure. However, guards do not impact the game in the same way as other positions.
The difference between competent guard play and elite guard play is far different than an elite player at a premium position (ex: QB, WR, LT, CB, pass rusher) versus "competent" play at those positions.
Getting to "competent" line play has been an issue for this team for over 10 years despite investments in the line.
Given the draft and free agent resources invested in the line this off-season, i can't see the team investing a top 10 pick into an offensive line position. It stinks that we're even discussing the team drafting another tackle after the team invested a top 7 pick into Evan Neal just a few years back (not to mention a top 5 pick into Andrew Thomas a few years before that pick).
I think Jones will be a fine backup. If you needed him for a few games - he could get the job done.
17 games? Not so much.