https://twitter.com/NYGDaily/status/1762514668067692783
He spoke of all the physical tools. Nothing about the mental and psychological aspects of his game. If he's that committed then drafting a QB in the first two rounds would contradict his support and I'm glad to hear it. It means that they can use those picks to improve the team and if he's wrong about Jones then he deserves to lose his job. The QB position is the number one, most important personnel decision a GM can make next to the Head Coach.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 28, 2024, 02:07:50 PMHe spoke of all the physical tools. Nothing about the mental and psychological aspects of his game. If he's that committed then drafting a QB in the first two rounds would contradict his support and I'm glad to hear it. It means that they can use those picks to improve the team and if he's wrong about Jones then he deserves to lose his job. The QB position is the number one, most important personnel decision a GM can make next to the Head Coach.
In fairness, there seems to be a taboo against talking about a player's mental abilities. We know pretty much every physical aspect of a player, even the size of their hands, but for anything testing that involves the mind, the NFL and the players seemed to be determined to keep it secret. They never publish the Wonderlics (although they tend to leak out), and players and agents were even upset with the results of the new S2 test that is supposed to measure processing speed to leak out.
Thinking back, unless it's praising a player's toughness, work ethic, or leadership, you don't hear much talk about a player beyond the physical. The days of publicly questioning a player's toughness, or intelligence, or even leadership seem to have passed (remember Parcells referring to a player as "she"?)
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 28, 2024, 02:21:41 PMIn fairness, there seems to be a taboo against talking about a player's mental abilities. We know pretty much every physical aspect of a player, even the size of their hands, but for anything testing that involves the mind, the NFL and the players seemed to be determined to keep it secret. They never publish the Wonderlics (although they tend to leak out), and players and agents were even upset with the results of the new S2 test that is supposed to measure processing speed to leak out.
Thinking back, unless it's praising a player's toughness, work ethic, or leadership, you don't hear much talk about a player beyond the physical. The days of publicly questioning a player's toughness, or intelligence, or even leadership seem to have passed (remember Parcells referring to a player as "she"?)
I don't believe discussing a player's processing time and ability to manage the game from the aspect of reading the Defense and setting up protections is taboo. He didn't want to go there and the caller who raised the question spoke in generalities and the question was poorly constructed.
I don't believe that Schoen is a stubborn man and I consider him highly intelligent. I predict a QB in one of those top three picks and most likely the 6 pick.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 28, 2024, 02:48:13 PMI don't believe discussing a player's processing time and ability to manage the game from the aspect of reading the Defense and setting up protections is taboo. He didn't want to go there and the caller who raised the question spoke in generalities and the question was poorly constructed.
I don't believe that Schoen is a stubborn man and I consider him highly intelligent. I predict a QB in one of those top three picks and most likely the 6 pick.
If it's not taboo, can you recall a time an NFL coach or GM has publicly talked about processing speed or the mental aspect of quarterbacking? I am asking because I couldn't recall one.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 28, 2024, 02:49:59 PMIf it's not taboo, can you recall a time an NFL coach or GM has publicly talked about processing speed or the mental aspect of quarterbacking? I am asking because I couldn't recall one.
It's taboo to speak of it negatively but if it's to praise the QB, then all is well. Similar to the adage, "praise in public, admonish in private." Sometimes, what's not said speaks louder than what is.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 28, 2024, 02:48:13 PMI don't believe discussing a player's processing time and ability to manage the game from the aspect of reading the Defense and setting up protections is taboo. He didn't want to go there and the caller who raised the question spoke in generalities and the question was poorly constructed.
I don't believe that Schoen is a stubborn man and I consider him highly intelligent. I predict a QB in one of those top three picks and most likely the 6 pick.
Schoen and Daboll aren't dumb, they aren't going to risk their future on a guy that has already cost 1 GM and 2 HCs their Job. They really had no other option than to sign him last offseason, because the part of the fanbase that loves Jones would have lost their mcnuggets had they not signed him and forced people to realize he was incapable of maning the ship. I agree with you completely I think they are all in on the hunt for the future.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 28, 2024, 02:49:59 PMIf it's not taboo, can you recall a time an NFL coach or GM has publicly talked about processing speed or the mental aspect of quarterbacking? I am asking because I couldn't recall one.
Why would that restrict his answer? There are no rules. But to answer your question,
https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2022/06/12/new-york-giants-daniel-jones-mike-kafka-had-honest-open-conversation-about-turnovers/
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 28, 2024, 03:57:08 PMWhy would that restrict his answer? There are no rules. But to answer your question,
https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2022/06/12/new-york-giants-daniel-jones-mike-kafka-had-honest-open-conversation-about-turnovers/
https://www.nfl.com/news/giants-gm-dave-gettleman-on-qb-daniel-jones-we-really-believe-he-s-the-guy
Jones had a nice season in 2022. He wasn't asked to do much and with the help of a healthy Barkley had success. Going into the Minnesota game there was no doubt in my mind the Giants were the better team and would win. Minnesota had a terrible defense and a young rookie coach. Jones played well and deserved credit for the win. The following week reality set in. To say that the Minnesota game proves Jones is an above average QB is absolutely ludicrous. I remember Gettleman pointing to a 400 yard passing game by Eli to say he still had something left and justifying the terrible Barkley pick at 2. One game does not make a QB. Let's just hope Schoen is just being diplomatic otherwise we Giant fans are doomed.
Some little things must be missing in their scouting of O line prospects!
Quote from: katkavage on February 28, 2024, 05:15:45 PMJones had a nice season in 2022. He wasn't asked to do much and with the help of a healthy Barkley had success. Going into the Minnesota game there was no doubt in my mind the Giants were the better team and would win. Minnesota had a terrible defense and a young rookie coach. Jones played well and deserved credit for the win. The following week reality set in. To say that the Minnesota game proves Jones is an above average QB is absolutely ludicrous. I remember Gettleman pointing to a 400 yard passing game by Eli to say he still had something left and justifying the terrible Barkley pick at 2. One game does not make a QB. Let's just hope Schoen is just being diplomatic otherwise we Giant fans are doomed.
It is simply amazing to me how people stick to same opinions year after year despite years of evidence.
The Barkley picks is terrible at #2 ? What is terrible about it? THere are good odds that any pick at any given draft slot could have been a bust. Barkley wasn't that. In fact he has pretty much been the whole offense . You really wished they would have drafted Darnold with that pick?
Also the Eli was cooked narrative again. This team did not make any kind of dramatic improvement without Eli. In fact they have pretty much sucked since he was gone. The guy was a top 10 passing yards QB in 2018. A Top 10 pass completed QB in 2018. A top 10 passing attempts QB in 2018.
Daniel Jones has little to do with anything Eli at this point. Gettle was right about a few things. And Shoen has not shown to be much of an improvement. He had every opportunity to bring in another QB.
Quote from: Fletch on February 28, 2024, 07:56:36 PMIt is simply amazing to me how people stick to same opinions year after year despite years of evidence.
The Barkley picks is terrible at #2 ? What is terrible about it? THere are good odds that any pick at any given draft slot could have been a bust. Barkley wasn't that. In fact he has pretty much been the whole offense . You really wished they would have drafted Darnold with that pick?
Also the Eli was cooked narrative again. This team did not make any kind of dramatic improvement without Eli. In fact they have pretty much sucked since he was gone. The guy was a top 10 passing yards QB in 2018. A Top 10 pass completed QB in 2018. A top 10 passing attempts QB in 2018.
Daniel Jones has little to do with anything Eli at this point. Gettle was right about a few things. And Shoen has not shown to be much of an improvement. He had every opportunity to bring in another QB.
Never said Barkley the player was a bust. I hated drafting a running back at 2 and I was right that it was mistake. Eli was a Hall of Fame QB, but they should have rebuilt and moved on when Gettleman took over. Instead they thought they could build around an aging QB. My point was that one good game does not indicate a career. I was referring to Schoen pointing out the win against a mediocre Minnesota team as a breakout for Jones.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 28, 2024, 02:07:50 PMHe spoke of all the physical tools. Nothing about the mental and psychological aspects of his game. If he's that committed then drafting a QB in the first two rounds would contradict his support and I'm glad to hear it. It means that they can use those picks to improve the team and if he's wrong about Jones then he deserves to lose his job. The QB position is the number one, most important personnel decision a GM can make next to the Head Coach.
Ed: Or they fix almost all of the team with a solid year of picks (not impossible in free-agency) at the right positions (partly a matter of luck for the right guys to be there at the right time in the draft) and then draft Drew Allar from Penn State next year (he will kick ass next season). Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on February 29, 2024, 06:54:23 AMEd: Or they fix almost all of the team with a solid year of picks (not impossible in free-agency) at the right positions (partly a matter of luck for the right guys to be there at the right time in the draft) and then draft Drew Allar from Penn State next year (he will kick ass next season). Bob
Drew choked against better Defenses. Let's see how he progresses as a JR.
Glad Schoen didn't say negative things about Jones, which is GMing 101.
I will say there is one striking difference between how GM Joe Schoen views the Jones situation versus how the majority of fans see it. Schoen recognizes that there are factors that can impact a quarterback's play that are out of their control, while many fans think the "right" quarterback can play great regardless of circumstance.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 29, 2024, 08:28:53 AMI will say there is one striking difference between how GM Joe Schoen views the Jones situation versus how the majority of fans see it. Schoen recognizes that there are factors that can impact a quarterback's play that are out of their control, while many fans think the "right" quarterback can play great regardless of circumstance.
The difference is vast. Players on the team praise DJ, as do coaches, and retired Giants...yet there is a significant portion of the fan base who routinely spew insults at DJ as if they know ten times more than the coaches and players
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on February 29, 2024, 08:36:17 AMThe difference is vast. Players on the team praise DJ, as do coaches, and retired Giants...yet there is a significant portion of the fan base who routinely spew insults at DJ as if they know ten times more than the coaches and players
Mel Kiper, Peter King, Eli Manning, Bob Papa, Phil Simms, and Carl Banks are still in DJ's corner. I don't doubt DJ's talent, but the injuries are a major concern for me.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on February 29, 2024, 08:36:17 AMThe difference is vast. Players on the team praise DJ, as do coaches, and retired Giants...yet there is a significant portion of the fan base who routinely spew insults at DJ as if they know ten times more than the coaches and players
You do realize that they are towing the company line correct? No ones going to speak how they really feel...
Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 29, 2024, 08:46:06 AMYou do realize that they are towing the company line correct? No ones going to speak how they really feel...
Is anyone towing the company line over at Jets HQ when it comes to the QB they drafted 2nd overall?
DJ has been in the bottom 3rd of Qbs his entire career if not outside the top 32 and you logically think that all these people don't wish they had a different qb?
Wait until we draft one and see how the entire tone changes towards Jones. The most diehard beat writers finally acknowledged his problems this past season and the need for a new qb.
If Jones ever was the answer, he isn't now otherwise everyone wouldn't be constantly saying we need to move up for a Qb or that we will be drafting one. Every NY Giants article right now is about us taking a Qb. If Jones was the answer and so loved, that would not be the case.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on February 29, 2024, 08:19:00 AMGlad Schoen didn't say negative things about Jones, which is GMing 101.
Of course, he may have trade value.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 29, 2024, 08:52:41 AMDJ has been in the bottom 3rd of Qbs his entire career if not outside the top 32 and you logically think that all these people don't wish they had a different qb?
Wait until we draft one and see how the entire tone changes towards Jones. The most diehard beat writers finally acknowledged his problems this past season and the need for a new qb.
If Jones ever was the answer, he isn't now otherwise everyone wouldn't be constantly saying we need to move up for a Qb or that we will be drafting one. Every NY Giants article right now is about us taking a Qb. If Jones was the answer and so loved, that would not be the case.
Quite obvious those cheap shots were over your head.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 29, 2024, 08:53:11 AMOf course, he may have trade value.
I don't believe he has trade value; not with his current contract. It's also highly unlikely DJ would ever receive a similar deal; thus, he would be crazy to renegotiate it, which negates any trade value. If fans being honest with themselves, ask what team would trade for DJ and his current contract? I suspect the honest answer is none, which belies this entire narrative.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 29, 2024, 08:52:41 AMDJ has been in the bottom 3rd of Qbs his entire career if not outside the top 32 and you logically think that all these people don't wish they had a different qb?
Wait until we draft one and see how the entire tone changes towards Jones. The most diehard beat writers finally acknowledged his problems this past season and the need for a new qb.
If Jones ever was the answer, he isn't now otherwise everyone wouldn't be constantly saying we need to move up for a Qb or that we will be drafting one. Every NY Giants article right now is about us taking a Qb. If Jones was the answer and so loved, that would not be the case.
The part in bold simply is not accurate. Take 2022 the one season where DJ had good coaching but below average blocking and receiving.
QB rating 13
QBR 6th
PFF 17th
That is not bottom third, not even close.
JS has a perfect out if he drafts a QB. Jones injury history. Jones will start when healthy, the young QB can watch and develop and if next season is another stinker with Jones at QB, they can move on. I personally think letting a young guy sit a year isn't terrible. I know financial considerations drive these "start right away" decisions but I think sitting for a year or part of a year to see the big picture and learn is in the better long term interest of the team.
Quote from: kingm56 on February 29, 2024, 09:02:01 AMI don't believe he has trade value; not with his current contract. It's also highly unlikely DJ would ever receive a similar deal; thus, he would be crazy to renegotiate it, which negates any trade value. If fans being honest with themselves, ask what team would trade for DJ and his current contract? I suspect the honest answer is none, which belies this entire narrative.
Every year, contracts for QB's get more expensive. His 2025 year cap hit is only 41 million for a team that would trade for him. That's also a weak QB draft class. Keeping their options open is smart.
Quote from: expatriot on February 29, 2024, 09:21:52 AMJS has a perfect out if he drafts a QB. Jones injury history. Jones will start when healthy, the young QB can watch and develop and if next season is another stinker with Jones at QB, they can move on. I personally think letting a young guy sit a year isn't terrible. I know financial considerations drive these "start right away" decisions but I think sitting for a year or part of a year to see the big picture and learn is in the better long term interest of the team.
I really think the sit-or-play option should be made with strong consideration of the support the QB enjoys or suffers. Sitting is usually the best option if the team has poor protection and weak receivers. If the QB enjoys good protection and has quality targets, they often benefit from starting sooner.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 29, 2024, 09:23:31 AMEvery year, contracts for QB's get more expensive. His 2025 year cap hit is only 41 million for a team that would trade for him. That's also a weak QB draft class. Keeping their options open is smart.
I can't think of a single team that would pay DJ $41M/yr, vice drafting a QB. The latter will be much cheaper and have the potential to be more than a bottom 10 passer. I wish you were right, Ed...I just view his contract, relative to his ability/performance to be a massive hurdle.
Quote from: kingm56 on February 29, 2024, 09:29:40 AMI can't think of a single team that would pay DJ $41M/yr, vice drafting a QB. The latter will be much cheaper and have the potential to be more than a bottom 10 passer. I wish you were right, Ed...I just view his contract, relative to his ability/performance to be a massive hurdle.
Although I believe it's time to move on and draft a QB, I don't believe he's as broken as he appeared last season. With a halfway decent Line, he can be an 8-12 QB if he can use his legs coming back from injury in the right system. I would take him over Jimmy G and Derek Card and that entire group of QB's which include Darnold and Mayfield. He's never been on a second team and lets face it, the Daboll/Kafka Offense has a lot to prove. I think he can be better than he showed in 2022. The new bar for a top five QB is 60mm. 40 mil is going to be the bar for these middling QB's.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 29, 2024, 09:18:54 AMThe part in bold simply is not accurate. Take 2022 the one season where DJ had good coaching but below average blocking and receiving.
QB rating 13
QBR 6th
PFF 17th
That is not bottom third, not even close.
Rich the one season you are pointing to he barely threw it beyond 20 yards before December. One season Where the passing offense was still bottom 3rd and everyone acted like him matching Davis Mills production was some huge deal. This is why we are were we are now because people thought Daniel Jones barely throwing over 200 yards 6 times was some great accomplishment.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 29, 2024, 08:55:45 AMQuite obvious those cheap shots were over your head.
Just perplexes me that we are still having a Daniel Jones debate going into year 6.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 28, 2024, 02:21:41 PMIn fairness, there seems to be a taboo against talking about a player's mental abilities. We know pretty much every physical aspect of a player, even the size of their hands, but for anything testing that involves the mind, the NFL and the players seemed to be determined to keep it secret. They never publish the Wonderlics (although they tend to leak out), and players and agents were even upset with the results of the new S2 test that is supposed to measure processing speed to leak out.
Thinking back, unless it's praising a player's toughness, work ethic, or leadership, you don't hear much talk about a player beyond the physical. The days of publicly questioning a player's toughness, or intelligence, or even leadership seem to have passed (remember Parcells referring to a player as "she"?)
Why not ask Terry Bradshaw about being publicky called a "dumb" quarterback, or having it inferred via the amount of time it took him to develop under an authoritarian coach who never spoke up in his defense; i.e. when Hollywood Henderson or others would offer soundbits in public about the quarterback.
Some might call Bradshaw hypersensitive but he grew into one of the greatest, toughest leaders ever to play the game. Yet, to this day, those words and inferences still hurt as if they happened yesterday:
Terry Bradshaw (https://steelersdepot.com/2023/02/bradshaw-feels-like-he-didnt-get-enough-support-from-steelers-noll-regarding-dumb-label/)
Bringing this back to the Giants, Schoen and Daboll, Mara as well, have stepped up and admitted that this football team succeeded in screwing Jones up. So, from that alone, we know Daniel is being given every opportunity possible to turn his career around. It very well may be too little, too late, but he has been first class and worn the colors well even if success has eluded him, for the most part. But to suggest that anyone hates him, in my opinion, has issues they are projecting on someone they know can't reply back, or wouldn't have the balls to say it to Daniels' face anyway.
If Daniel redeems himself, then you won't find an individual more excited than I will be. If he is unable to, I will continue to back him for every snap he plays for the Giants. If it doesn't work out, it is far less about him than it is the systematic issues with the football organization which set him, and other players of considerable to high potential, up for ultimate disappointment. Unfortunately, some of those issues are above Joe Scoen's pay grade.
Peace!
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 29, 2024, 07:48:53 AMDrew choked against better Defenses.
Ed: I'm not sure you're serious but I'll take that remark at face value. I can only re-watch one game per day, but I'll eventually review the 3 they lost, each of which was against a higher-ranked team.
Before starting with Penn State at Ohio State, you may not know Coach Franklin's record against AP Top Ten teams is currently 3-18 (counting the three in 2023) and his road record in those games is 0-10. So, to begin with, you've got a sophomore QB and a head coach who can't win big games, especially on the road. Against Ohio State, the three things you need to know are:
(1) Both D's allowed 1.9 yards per carry against the run; game was decided through the air. Chop Robinson, PSU's top pass rusher was injured and out early in the 2nd quarter, and the "pressure" battle was clearly won by Ohio State.
(2) There was no "choke" at QB. Allar threw two bad passes of 27 and no INT's, despite playing from behind through all four quarters; pressure was constant, with maybe three plays where he had time to even consider a long ball. On short and intermediate passes, the receivers were not open very often, and when they were, the passes were on-target and completed (except for two drops and two or three passes defended).
(3) If the teams switched QB's, the same team would have won. If the teams switched number-one WR's, Penn State would have won. The difference was Harrison, Jr. The ball went to him in almost every critical situation (as it should have). The coaches waited for those moments and schemed him away from Penn State's best CB's very well (and with success more often than not), especially in the second half.
Bob
What Schoen wasn't asked to address was the fact that Jones was outplayed this year by the other Giant QBs. I understand he faced tougher defenses and that there may be some other mitigating factors but the bottom line is that the vast cost gap between Jones and the other two means it shouldn't have even been remotely close. To me that's damning as hell and kind of closes the book, from my perspective at least. I appreciate that some fans just don't want to let go of this fantasy that he'a a really good QB who just hasn't had the help he needs, but the evidence that he's simply not very good and not getting better is pretty overwhelming. And that doesn't even address the durability issues with this player, which are also hugely problematic.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 29, 2024, 08:28:53 AMI will say there is one striking difference between how GM Joe Schoen views the Jones situation versus how the majority of fans see it. Schoen recognizes that there are factors that can impact a quarterback's play that are out of their control, while many fans think the "right" quarterback can play great regardless of circumstance.
Both can be true.
Many here have readily acknowledged the non-QB factors that can affect how productive the QB is, while simultaneously realizing that better QB play is possible despite the less-than-stellar support.
I'm willing to bet a medium Pepsi that Schoen feels the same.
Quote from: T200 on March 01, 2024, 08:45:06 AMBoth can be true.
Many here have readily acknowledged the non-QB factors that can affect how productive the QB is, while simultaneously realizing that better QB play is possible despite the less-than-stellar support.
I'm willing to bet a medium Pepsi that Schoen feels the same.
Schoen recognizes that PFF wasn't off to rank the Giants dead last in pass protection and receiver and he understands that no QB can properly function in that environment. That is not compatible with the view of so many fans that fault Jones for not performing much better than he did.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 01, 2024, 08:49:28 AMSchoen recognizes that PFF wasn't off to rank the Giants dead last in pass protection and receiver and he understands that no QB can properly function in that environment. That is not compatible with the view of so many fans that fault Jones for not performing much better than he did.
I don't disagree that there are fans who don't consider the other factors, as previously mentioned. Those are not the people I'm talking about.
Schoen is a smart guy. He's not going to publicly paint Jones in any kind of negative light. If he grabs a QB in this draft, that will let everyone know how he truly feels about Jones going forward. Especially if he has to give up draft capital to move up for him.
Quote from: T200 on March 01, 2024, 08:54:58 AMI don't disagree that there are fans who don't consider the other factors, as previously mentioned. Those are not the people I'm talking about.
Schoen is a smart guy. He's not going to publicly paint Jones in any kind of negative light. If he grabs a QB in this draft, that will let everyone know how he truly feels about Jones going forward. Especially if he has to give up trade capital to move up for him.
If Schoen share the views of the fans on this forum, he never would have paid Jones what he paid him.
Quote from: T200 on March 01, 2024, 08:54:58 AMI don't disagree that there are fans who don't consider the other factors, as previously mentioned. Those are not the people I'm talking about.
Schoen is a smart guy. He's not going to publicly paint Jones in any kind of negative light. If he grabs a QB in this draft, that will let everyone know how he truly feels about Jones going forward. Especially if he has to give up trade capital to move up for him.
Agreed, Tim.
I would further add that if Schoen in this offseason opts to not spread out this $47mm 2024 cap hit (by essentially committing to more years with Jones), that will also be telling insofar as his present level of confidence in Jones.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 01, 2024, 08:56:44 AMIf Schoen share the views of the fans on this forum, he never would have paid Jones what he paid him.
Not everything is absolute, Rich. Sharing an assessment of Jones does not include sharing thoughts on the Jones contract. Two different things.
Quote from: T200 on March 01, 2024, 08:58:22 AMNot everything is absolute, Rich. Sharing an assessment of Jones does not include sharing thoughts on the Jones contract. Two different things.
Tim, it's not a matter of absolutes. It's simply been that there is a sizeable portion of the fan base (and it's represented here) that is highly critical of Jones. I don't think one needs absolutes to fairly say that Schoen has a higher opinion of Daniel Jones than the fans who are strong critics of the man. No GM would signed a QB to what the Giants signed Jones to, if they felt about Jones the way the critics feel about him, it's just not done.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 01, 2024, 08:57:39 AMAgreed, Tim.
I would further add that if Schoen in this offseason opts to not spread out this $47mm 2024 cap hit (by essentially committing to more years with Jones), that will also be telling insofar as his present level of confidence in Jones.
I truly believe the contract was due to the playoff win and Mara's preference to keep Jones.
Schoen already let everyone know that he didn't want Jones when he didn't pick up the 5th-year option. Then, the deal was structured to be able to dump Jones after two years. Two years to get a QB in the draft.
He will not have his career defined by a QB he didn't bring in.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 01, 2024, 09:03:11 AMTim, it's not a matter of absolutes. It's simply been that there is a sizeable portion of the fan base (and it's represented here) that is highly critical of Jones. I don't think one needs absolutes to fairly say that Schoen has a higher opinion of Daniel Jones than the fans who are strong critics of the man. No GM would signed a QB to what the Giants signed Jones to, if they felt about Jones the way the critics feel about him, it's just not done.
Rich,
All I'm saying is Schoen's evaluation of Jones and what quite a few of us have said of Jones match up.
Your bringing up the contract situation is not part of what I'm addressing. You're trying to lump them together and that's why I said it's not absolute. We can agree on one aspect but not the other.
Quote from: T200 on March 01, 2024, 09:06:37 AMRich,
All I'm saying is Schoen's evaluation of Jones and what quite a few of us have said of Jones match up.
Your bringing up the contract situation is not part of what I'm addressing. You're trying to lump them together and that's why I said it's not absolute. We can agree on one aspect but not the other.
How do you have any idea if the part in bold is true? The evidence available (Schoen's comments and actions) indicates that the claim isn't true.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 01, 2024, 09:09:37 AMHow do you have any idea if the part in bold is true? The evidence available (Schoen's comments and actions) indicates that the claim isn't true.
https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?msg=942912
Quote from: T200 on March 01, 2024, 09:19:59 AMhttps://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?msg=942912
Quote from: T200 on March 01, 2024, 09:04:19 AMI truly believe the contract was due to the playoff win and Mara's preference to keep Jones.
Schoen already let everyone know that he didn't want Jones when he didn't pick up the 5th-year option. Then, the deal was structured to be able to dump Jones after two years. Two years to get a QB in the draft.
He will not have his career defined by a QB he didn't bring in.
A few points.
While we have insiders who will give us detailed glimpses as to what goes on inside 1925 Giants Way, not one of them has ever reported that Mara has instructed the GM what to do or overrode what a GM wanted to do. In fact, well-connected beat reporters have stated that it's complete fan fiction that Mara is behind the scenes pulling the strings.
Not picking up the 5-year option indicated that at a point in time, Schoen was unsure what they had in Jones, and so they didn't agree to a guaranteed 5th year. Since Schoen always had the option to re-sign or franchise, it's not accurate to say "Schoen didn't want Jones".
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 29, 2024, 08:49:01 AMIs anyone towing the company line over at Jets HQ when it comes to the QB they drafted 2nd overall?
the owner certainly isn't, and that paves the way for other critics. Zach also [provides for good scapegoat. Whereas here, the emperor is not wearing any clothes and mara loves Daniel Jones so we have to endure yet another year of excuses for Daniel Jones.
QB rating a dubious stat where the highest ratings are held by QBs in the modern era. I guess people like Joe Namath couldn't play QB?
QBR a made up ESPN stat.
PFF who even knows how they come up with their rating system and how do they know what the teams are trying to do on a play?
Quote from: katkavage on February 28, 2024, 08:52:41 PMNever said Barkley the player was a bust. I hated drafting a running back at 2 and I was right that it was mistake. Eli was a Hall of Fame QB, but they should have rebuilt and moved on when Gettleman took over. Instead they thought they could build around an aging QB. My point was that one good game does not indicate a career. I was referring to Schoen pointing out the win against a mediocre Minnesota team as a breakout for Jones.
Why was it a mistake? And again who would you have drafted at that spot? If you wanted a QB and you felt a RB at 2 was a wasted pick--then the obvious thing to do would have been to draft Darnold.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 01, 2024, 09:25:07 AMA few points.
While we have insiders who will give us detailed glimpses as to what goes on inside 1925 Giants Way, not one of them has ever reported that Mara has instructed the GM what to do or overrode what a GM wanted to do. In fact, well-connected beat reporters have stated that it's complete fan fiction that Mara is behind the scenes pulling the strings.
Not picking up the 5-year option indicated that at a point in time, Schoen was unsure what they had in Jones, and so they didn't agree to a guaranteed 5th year. Since Schoen always had the option to re-sign or franchise, it's not accurate to say "Schoen didn't want Jones".
The absence of a report about Mara's influence means nothing. He's the owner. He has influence, to varying degrees.
"Joe, we really did a disservice to this kid by not protecting him. He deserves more than what we've given him to date. I know you didn't draft him and you don't want to pick up his 5th-year option. I completely understand. Hopefully he plays well enough to earn your trust."
If that's a one-on-one conversation, what insider is there to report it? As I said, the lack of a report is a non-factor.
Not picking up a 5th-year option means that Schoen didn't want to sign Jones to a long-term deal. If Schoen inherited Mahomes in the same situation, I think that option gets picked up.
Just know that I am on record with a very strong feeling that the Giants will pick a QB in this draft. And if they trade up for him, it will solidify my point even more that they are not sold on Jones.
Quote from: Fletch on March 01, 2024, 09:35:13 AMthe owner certainly isn't, and that paves the way for other critics. Zach also [provides for good scapegoat. Whereas here, the emperor is not wearing any clothes and mara loves Daniel Jones so we have to endure yet another year of excuses for Daniel Jones.
QB rating a dubious stat where the highest ratings are held by QBs in the modern era. I guess people like Joe Namath couldn't play QB?
QBR a made up ESPN stat.
PFF who even knows how they come up with their rating system and how do they know what the teams are trying to do on a play?
I appreciate that you like to dismiss data that doesn't fit your beliefs, but I don't agree with that approach. When it comes to stats, I look at who gets sorted to the top of the list. If the best players make it to the top, that I will accept a stat as useful.
Take QB rating
Filtered for QBs who played double-digit games, the top ten are (Regular season, which one should keep in mind with Mahomes who was played much better in the playoffs)
Brock Purdy
Dak Prescott
Lamar Jackson
Tua Tagovailoa
CJ Stroud
Russel Wilson
Jared Goff
Derek Carr
Jordan Love
Baker Mayfield
You look at how many playoff QBs are in the top ten, and despite your claims to the contrary, the QB rating is still a solid measure.
Now QBR
Brock Purdy
Dak Prescott
Josh Allen
Lamar Jackson
Justin Herbert
Patrick Mahommes
Jordan Love
Tua Tagovailoa
Jared Goff
Jalen Hurts
So how do you explain this "made-up stat" doing such a great job identifying the top QBs?????
I am not going to put in the work for PFF, but needless to say, PFF's top 10 also showed an excellent correlation to the top grades and the top QBs
@ Mighty it doesn't fit my narrative.
Those QBs not only have high QBr QB rating and PFF but they also have things like top 10 passing yards ; Top ten TDs thrown , and things like pro bowl awards, and votes for MVP.
Are you really saying Daniel jones is in that category despite having NONE OF THOSE OTHER THINGS except some dubious , subjective stat? Wasn't there someone here touting Jacoby Brisset as a good QB because of his QBR? Seems to me like people trying to justify some stinky QB pulls these stats up. Also, you can be a QB who totally stinks and still have a respectable QBR if you run the ball a lot and ; never throw a pick but at the same time never play with any balls and throw a pass over 4 yards.
Again you never answered the question about it grading modern QBs higher.