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What's more important: Great receivers or quarterbacks?

Started by Jolly Blue Giant, May 03, 2024, 09:50:15 AM

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kingm56 and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

kingm56

Quote from: sxdxca38 on Today at 12:49:13 AMIf you want to say that Brady playing behind a top five offensive line, for the majority of his career had absolutely no impact on his performance, well then be my guest.

Where did I, or anyone, state Brady and Manning did not benefit from playing behind top tier OLs?  You're reframing your own premise for reasons only you know.  What I stated, and objectively proved, was both QBs were ALSO successful playing behind poor-to-terrible OLs. Thus, they did always benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense."  Your reply is indicative someone who engages in 'resulting.'  Yes, Eli and Brady played behind some very good OLs; however, that doesn't invalidate thier successes playing behind bottom 10 OLs. 

And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it.

As I accurately predicted, and stated, your mind is already made up and no amount of objective data will sway you. So, why waste time providing a cogent, time-consuming response? However, since you brought it up, I will do so below."

So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning.
You remind me of Blue Fire; any opposing view and/or rebuttal were classified as "faulty." Do you automatically assume anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and/or employ fault logic?

In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham.
You're moving the goal post, presumably because you were unaware of the Giants' 2011 OL ranking. You explicitly stated "What is more important to the QB than the WR is the offensive line", "Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their career" and "It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defensee."  BTW, I don't think any fan would classify Manningham or Nicks as 'elite', especially the former.  How did both do without Manning?  Regardless, I digress as WR(s) weren't our focus; you introduced them after learning about the 2011 OL rankings

Have at it, as I'm now going to go to sleep.
This is akin to I'm taking my ball and going home...


BL: Your premise that Manning and Brady's successes were wholly predicated on "elite OLs" during "thier prime" is patently false. 

Eli's aggregate Oline Rankings:

2008    11  (Unk) * Made the Pro Bowl
2009    6  (12 Pass Blocking)
2010    13 (17 Pass Blocking)
2011    31 (31 Pass Blocking) * Made the Pro Bowl/MVP and AP votes
2012   11 (21 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2013    28 (31 Pass Blocking)
2014    20 (28 Pass Blocking)
2015    20 (28 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2016   20 (24 Pass Blocking)

2008*   27   NYG   QB   16   289   479   60.3   3238   21   10   86.4   66.9   PB
2009   28   NYG   QB   16   317   509   62.3   4021   27   14   93.1   71.7   
2010   29   NYG   QB   16   339   539   62.9   4002   31   25   85.3   57.7   
2011*   30   NYG   QB   16   359   589   61   4933   29   16   92.9   64.2   AP CPoY-6, PB
2012*   31   NYG   QB   16   321   536   59.9   3948   26   15   87.2   67   PB
2013   32   NYG   QB   16   317   551   57.5   3818   18   27   69.4   38.6   
2014   33   NYG   QB   16   379   601   63.1   4410   30   14   92.1   61   
2015*   34   NYG   QB   16   387   618   62.6   4432   35   14   93.6   57.9   PB
Note – I did not include 2016 through 2019 as the OP explicitly stated "in the prime of their careers."  On average, QBs not named Brady start to regress around their mid-30s; this was true for all of Manning's 2004 draft contemporaries (e.g. Big Ben and Rivers).

Key Takeaways:
1. With the exception of 2013, Eli's output remained consistent
2. Eli's best season was 2011, playing behind the NFL's worst OL
3. Eli's worst season was 2013, playing behind the NFL's worst OL
3. Eli's 4 PB seasons occurred playing behind the 11, 31, 11 and 20 rated lines.
4. 3 of 4 of his PB seasons were accomplished playing with bottom 10 pass blocking line (31, 21, and  28)
5. During his Prime, Eli's aggregate OL ranking was #18
6. During his Prime, Eli's average pass protection ranking was #24
7. On average, Eli did NOT benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense" in his prime; the exact opposite was true.
8. The same is true for Tom Brady; in his prime, he remained consistent, independent of his OL rankings.  His 2015 MVP season was accomplished behind the NFL's worst pass-blocking line.

The data is remarkably clear; Brady and Manning output were NOT wholly predicated on thier OL performances.  Brady and Manning literally prove the opposite of the premise introduced.  Each remained consistent during MULTIPLE seasons with poor Olines in thier prime. In short, it's possible for QBs to be e HIGHLY successful (e.g. MVPs/APs) playing behind terrible pass-blocking olines.   Looking at the data, can we at least agree on that point?  Can we agree Eli and Brady enjoyed MULTPLE Pro Bowl/SB seasons playing behind bottom 10 olines? If true, can we also agree that it's possible for Top-Tier QBs to be successful without elite OLs?   I will agree with the notion that 36 through 38 year old Manning needed a plus offensive line to be successful, as the data supports that conclusion; however, Prime Eli did not.