I think the Giants feel if they get better OL play especially in pass rush plus get a WR1 and add another RB or TE that a healthy DJ can be a top 12 or maybe top 10 QB and that they can win with that. I also think they are less concerned than fans are about the injury history and conclude better protection insures against that. This is the reason they go WR at 6 and maybe RB in round 2 or 3. If DJ fails, Dabs will be gone and a new coach will then go get another QB in 2025 however the offense will now have a true X WR1, plus a good WanDale and Jalin and a young RB to build around a new rookie QB.
I will concede that, for the most part, the ACL is one of those dumb luck injuries, and most injuries are one-and-done.
I wonder if the Giants thought it would be one and done-after the first neck injury. That didn't go as planned.
Still, even if one is willing to look past the injury issue, there is another elephant in the room. The Giants did a historically bad job protecting Jones last season. It was so bad that even a man as tough as Jones was seeing ghosts. I think Matt Waldman had the best analogy. If someone slams the window on your hand every time you put it in the window frame, even the bravest of men will start to flinch when asked to put their hand there again.
I guess I am of the view that if we had just finished the 22 season, I would concur with the Giants' beliefs. Only it's not 2023, but rather 2024. Things have changed for the worse in terms of DJ's future prospects. I am not completely ruling out a chance for success by DJ, but in my mind, those prospects are a bit of a long shot.
To your stated beliefs, I am not sure what the Giants believe at this point as Joe Schoen is pretty good about masking his intentions.
Quote from: Philosophers on April 14, 2024, 09:14:47 AMI think the Giants feel if they get better OL play especially in pass rush plus get a WR1 and add another RB or TE that a healthy DJ can be a top 12 or maybe top 10 QB and that they can win with that. I also think they are less concerned than fans are about the injury history and conclude better protection insures against that. This is the reason they go WR at 6 and maybe RB in round 2 or 3. If DJ fails, Dabs will be gone and a new coach will then go get another QB in 2025 however the offense will now have a true X WR1, plus a good WanDale and Jalin and a young RB to build around a new rookie QB.
I have never seen anything out of Jones in his five years as a Giant that makes me think he can ever exceed what he did in 22. At best he is a mid-level QB. The injuries just cement to me that there is not a chance that the Giants can be successful beyond maybe a wild card appearance with Jones as their QB.
Quote from: katkavage on April 14, 2024, 09:35:13 AMI have never seen anything out of Jones in his five years as a Giant that makes me think he can ever exceed what he did in 22. At best he is a mid-level QB. The injuries just cement to me that there is not a chance that the Giants can be successful beyond maybe a wild card appearance with Jones as their QB.
I think coaching staffs almost always think they can make some players top 10 at their position. Their egos are too big.
Quote from: Philosophers on April 14, 2024, 09:44:41 AMI think coaching staffs almost always think they can make some players top 10 at their position. Their egos are too big.
Not happening here. After the Commanders pick their QB there is a very good chance the Giants will have the worst QB in the division.
Quote from: Philosophers on April 14, 2024, 09:14:47 AMI think the Giants feel if they get better OL play especially in pass rush plus get a WR1 and add another RB or TE that a healthy DJ can be a top 12 or maybe top 10 QB and that they can win with that. I also think they are less concerned than fans are about the injury history and conclude better protection insures against that. This is the reason they go WR at 6 and maybe RB in round 2 or 3. If DJ fails, Dabs will be gone and a new coach will then go get another QB in 2025 however the offense will now have a true X WR1, plus a good WanDale and Jalin and a young RB to build around a new rookie QB.
I think they can win games and he was a top twelve QB in 2022. In the right system perhaps he can repeat it. I have my doubts after last season.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-nfl-quarterback-rankings-and-tiers
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 14, 2024, 10:01:29 AMI think they can win games and he was a top twelve QB in 2022. In the right system perhaps he can repeat it. I have my doubts after last season.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-nfl-quarterback-rankings-and-tiers
With a 1,500 yard rusher, yeah. And hope the opposition misses chip shot field goals. Wild card is the high ceiling.
Quote from: katkavage on April 14, 2024, 10:09:17 AMWith a 1,500 yard rusher, yeah. And hope the opposition misses chip shot field goals. Wild card is the high ceiling.
I agree, if you have been following my posts on him. I also have cautious enthusiasm for JJ McCarthy but his book in only in the first chapter.
What I am saying is how I think the Giants feel, not how I feel.
I think he is damaged goods both physically and mentally. Giants failed in protecting him last season so hard to tell what 2023 would have been had he played whole season and gotten sacked say 35 times. His psyche is affected as he won't gamble on downfield throws. Now Giants need a new QB.
Quote from: Philosophers on April 14, 2024, 10:16:48 AMWhat I am saying is how I think the Giants feel, not how I feel.
I think he is damaged goods both physically and mentally. Giants failed in protecting him last season so hard to tell what 2023 would have been had he played whole season and gotten sacked say 35 times. His psyche is affected as he won't gamble on downfield throws. Now Giants need a new QB.
I think he's broken.
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 14, 2024, 10:12:37 AMI agree, if you have been following my posts on him. I also have cautious enthusiasm for JJ McCarthy but his book in only in the first chapter.
I can't break down what makes a great QB in terms of evaluations. I do know McCarthy was at the helm of one of the most successful teams in major college football the past two years. And if the post philosophers had about how coaches think they can make a QB into top ten material, than I think they would be better suited with a younger QB with unlimited potential than one who has played five years and never shown any greatness in the position.
Quote from: Philosophers on April 14, 2024, 10:16:48 AMWhat I am saying is how I think the Giants feel, not how I feel.
If what you say is true, Philo, than we fans are in for an even longer drought of watchable football. And you might be correct. Mara is an owner stuck in the past. He has no vision. His father was the same. They might be nice, loyal, generous people, but as owners of an NFL franchise, they are hopeless.
Here's a question. If Giants do draft a QB at 6 does ownership give Dabs, Schoen, etc more than just next season to develop him otherwise we run into problem of mismatch between new head coach and previous regime's QB.
Quote from: Philosophers on April 14, 2024, 10:45:08 AMHere's a question. If Giants do draft a QB at 6 does ownership give Dabs, Schoen, etc more than just next season to develop him otherwise we run into problem of mismatch between new head coach and previous regime's QB.
Yes
Quote from: Philosophers on April 14, 2024, 09:44:41 AMI think coaching staffs almost always think they can make some players top 10 at their position. Their egos are too big.
I think this might apply more if they were the ones who picked him. Jones is now a clear losing poker hand. Daboll and Schoen are not going to bet their careers on him at this point.
Quote from: Philosophers on April 14, 2024, 10:45:08 AMHere's a question. If Giants do draft a QB at 6 does ownership give Dabs, Schoen, etc more than just next season to develop him otherwise we run into problem of mismatch between new head coach and previous regime's QB.
Yes, which is another reason why I think they will draft one. It buys them at least another year after this year.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 14, 2024, 10:57:08 AMYes, which is another reason why I think they will draft one. It buys them at least another year after this year.
I would be challenged to think of a worse reason to decide to draft a player
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 14, 2024, 11:00:27 AMI would be challenged to think of a worse reason to decide to draft a player
If that is the only reason they are drafting the player, yes. It's do we get fired if we continue to lose with an average, injury-prone QB or do we roll the dice on a a potentially good prospect and hope to turn the franchise around. If the latter is a bad outcome they will be gone just as they would be gone staying the course and losing with what they already have.
Quote from: Philosophers on April 14, 2024, 09:14:47 AMI think the Giants feel if they get better OL play especially in pass rush plus get a WR1 and add another RB or TE that a healthy DJ can be a top 12 or maybe top 10 QB and that they can win with that. I also think they are less concerned than fans are about the injury history and conclude better protection insures against that. This is the reason they go WR at 6 and maybe RB in round 2 or 3. If DJ fails, Dabs will be gone and a new coach will then go get another QB in 2025 however the offense will now have a true X WR1, plus a good WanDale and Jalin and a young RB to build around a new rookie QB.
Your assessment is a reasonable one, Joseph. Indeed, I anticipate that the Giants Draft, now in less than 2 weeks, will sustain your expectation, and put an end to the McCarthy at 6 or even worse at 4 or 5 speculation.
While I believe that short of a remarkable regular season/ playoff performance by Daniel Jones, 2024 will be his last with Our Heroes, that said, I share Baldy's view re JJ McCarthy.
It's always a gamble but JJ is too much of a risk to justify "fan pleasing", should he still be available at 6. And so like you, I want it to be a BPA WR1.
Cheers!
FWIW. Even more explicit.
https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2024/04/14/brian-baldinger-tiki-barber-warns-new-york-giants-against-drafting-jj-mccarthy/?newsletter_origin=giantswire.usatoday.com&newsletter_post_position=0&email=emailaddr
Cheers!
Quote from: katkavage on April 14, 2024, 11:06:07 AMIf that is the only reason they are drafting the player, yes. It's do we get fired if we continue to lose with an average, injury-prone QB or do we roll the dice on a a potentially good prospect and hope to turn the franchise around. If the latter is a bad outcome they will be gone just as they would be gone staying the course and losing with what they already have.
I never said it was the only reason. I said it was another reason. That means I'm saying it definitely isn't the only reason or even the main reason.
Quote from: Painter on April 14, 2024, 11:23:24 AMFWIW. Even more explicit.
https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2024/04/14/brian-baldinger-tiki-barber-warns-new-york-giants-against-drafting-jj-mccarthy/?newsletter_origin=giantswire.usatoday.com&newsletter_post_position=0&email=emailaddr
Cheers!
Maybe he was looking at a highlight reel? /sarcasm/
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 14, 2024, 10:46:41 AMYes
And that is reason WHY we are picking a QB.....job security and Schoen and hothead.
I do not think Daboll gets fired because QB play sucks with DJ/Lock unless all the other stuff blows up around him again and our problems are much more widespread. Mara is clearly fed up changing horses and worried the instability is hurting us. IMO he won't hang the HC if the team plays hard and the mood music is happier staff and a unified locker room.
Quote from: londonblue on April 15, 2024, 09:17:59 AMI do not think Daboll gets fired because QB play sucks with DJ/Lock unless all the other stuff blows up around him again and our problems are much more widespread. Mara is clearly fed up changing horses and worried the instability is hurting us. IMO he won't hang the HC if the team plays hard and the mood music is happier staff and a unified locker room.
For those who may not appreciate Neil's reference, Ralph V reported:
The last thing Mara wants to do is fire another coach, especially after he fired each of his past three after two seasons or less on the job. He craves stability for his franchise and, said one team source, "He's legitimately embarrassed by how much turnover there's been."https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/how-the-giants-looming-qb-decision-could-shake-the-franchise-to-its-core
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 15, 2024, 09:23:01 AMFor those who may not appreciate Neil's reference, Ralph V reported:
The last thing Mara wants to do is fire another coach, especially after he fired each of his past three after two seasons or less on the job. He craves stability for his franchise and, said one team source, "He's legitimately embarrassed by how much turnover there's been."
https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/how-the-giants-looming-qb-decision-could-shake-the-franchise-to-its-core
He should be embarrassed. Who hired Shurmer, Gettleman, Judge? To avoid further embarrassment he should find someone who know football (and not stuck in the past) to run the Giants and stay out of it.
Quote from: katkavage on April 15, 2024, 09:52:15 AMHe should be embarrassed. Who hired Shurmer, Gettleman, Judge? To avoid further embarrassment he should find someone who know football (and not stuck in the past) to run the Giants and stay out of it.
Considering that a quarter to a fifth of head coaches turnover each season, and there is also significant turnover of GMs (though they tend to last longer than head coaches), I would argue finding a quality head coach and GM is as difficult and challenging as finding an elite QB.
As Bill Belichick waits patiently on the sidelines. :knockONwood:
If Bill's interested, and Daboll implodes, anyone here believe Mara wouldn't give him a call?
Killer may have a point that the Giants need another layer of management to oversee operations.
Quote from: Philosophers on April 14, 2024, 09:14:47 AMI think the Giants feel if they get better OL play especially in pass rush plus get a WR1 and add another RB or TE that a healthy DJ can be a top 12 or maybe top 10 QB and that they can win with that. I also think they are less concerned than fans are about the injury history and conclude better protection insures against that. This is the reason they go WR at 6 and maybe RB in round 2 or 3. If DJ fails, Dabs will be gone and a new coach will then go get another QB in 2025 however the offense will now have a true X WR1, plus a good WanDale and Jalin and a young RB to build around a new rookie QB.
Jones failing is not necessarily going to get anyone fired. They inherited him. For all we know, behind closed doors, Schoen and Daboll may be saying that Jones is not the answer and want to replace him. However, also saying they don't want to give up too much for someone like McCarthy as they may not see him as that much better.
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 15, 2024, 10:15:58 AMAs Bill Belichick waits patiently on the sidelines. :knockONwood:
If Bill's interested, and Daboll implodes, anyone here believe Mara wouldn't give him a call?
Killer may have a point that the Giants need another layer of management to oversee operations.
I don't think so because replacing Daboll with Belichik is just setting up another short tenure HC, because at 71 BB will be a stop-gap.
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 15, 2024, 10:15:58 AMAs Bill Belichick waits patiently on the sidelines. :knockONwood:
If Bill's interested, and Daboll implodes, anyone here believe Mara wouldn't give him a call?
Maybe, but that would mean firing Schoen, or at best significantly weakening him. If you bring in Bill, he's running the room, period, no matter what you get him to verbally agree to in the interview process.
If Mara is ok with that, then he absolutely might. I'm in the camp that Daboll will not get fired after this season though barring another huge internal blowup/meltdown. I can't see it otherwise, unless it's truly a debacle like 3-14, which admittedly cannot be completely ruled out with this team.
I wouldn't worry about it, everything I've heard points to The Giants being done with Jones. Can they draft his replacement?? That is the tricky part, but I don't think anyone in that organization think Jones is the answer let alone a top tier QB. And that's even before injuries.
I just don't know if there's a way forward right now since picking at 6 won't solve the problem and neither will 2025 from everything I heard.
Quote from: StompYouOT on April 15, 2024, 10:02:25 PMI wouldn't worry about it, everything I've heard points to The Giants being done with Jones. Can they draft his replacement?? That is the tricky part, but I don't think anyone in that organization think Jones is the answer let alone a top tier QB. And that's even before injuries.
I just don't know if there's a way forward right now since picking at 6 won't solve the problem and neither will 2025 from everything I heard.
Lets put it this way: we know what we (Giant fans) have currently can't be more than average but maybe, despite not a top three pick, the Giants will get lucky and find a QB at six or elsewhere that might strike gold. At least that gives us some hope. The status quo, even with a better line and receivers offers very little hope when the most important position on the field is no better than mediocre.