Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: madbadger on Today at 02:59:27 PMHe's the best tight end on the roster and it isn't close. If we're looking to free up money who would it be for, and would they do more to help us win next year than Walker if he plays? Or are you thinking about next years draft picks and are hoping we start ejecting dead "weight" in preparation for next year.

Take the 12 mill saved on a Post June 1 cut and go get someone that could be more impactful.  14mill for 500 yards and 1 TD isn't worth it

Quote from: TONKA56 on Today at 11:15:09 AMBased on his class and work ethic, Jones is an easy guy to root for, but I have a hard time picturing him at quarterback after 2026 for a myriad of reasons.

I don't see him beyond the designed out year after 2024

Any growth will be leveraged into using his trade value to move on. 

My hunch is Jones never sees his 2025 and 2026 contract years in a Giants Uniform

Waller's gutless, uninspired brand of football is not what the team needs. 

Paying 14 mill for what little he brings to the table I think is a huge waste. 

I suspect they will cut him post June 1 so only 1.9 mill will hit this year and 5.9 next year. 

It was a nice try but a swing and miss

Quote from: kingm56 on April 09, 2024, 03:14:28 PMSounds like a veteran player trying to avoid camps, much like Strahan in 07. 

Strahan was good

Giants are being held hostage by an uninspired, overpaid 1/2 ass

All those picks and no ability to make sure the proper coaches were in place to develop them.

he was horrible when he wanted to play, I can't imagine his indecision will increase the caliber of his play

Missed the opening drop of the gloves

Tuned in 1/2 way through second and rangers were in the process of giving up 2 goals in 2 shots

Played a solid third, Kreider's goal was sweet

pulled it out, grabbed the  2 points

Not sure how first half of game played out though

A dud no doubt.  Crap effort, with too many turnovers to count, horrible breakouts, 1:1 battles had no intensity.....  too much to dwell on really

Laviolette puts a real premium on rebounding after 1 lose, some of his speeches are real solid.  The team tends to react to him as the Rangers have only failed to break a losing streak after a 1st loss on 6 occasions all season (4x 2 games, 1x 3 games in a row, 1x 4 games in arow)

Onto the Devils tomorrow, hoping for a big rebound game.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 03:30:23 PMImagine taking a time-based test.  Now imagine 45% of the time,, 2 seconds after you start to read each question, you can smacked in the back with a 2 by 4.  Do you think that might impact your test score?

Agreed, but Jones makes mistakes without the pressure, before the play even starts. Presnap mistakes, you can not blame that on the line, on pressure or anyone else.

Now imagine a football smart QB who doesn't process information correctly in the face of pressure as well as the absence of pressure, stop imagining because that is Daniel Jones.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 03:14:34 PMWhy I love Cosell is he is the epitome of intellectual honesty.  Had the tape shown that the Giants had dumbed things down for Daniel Jones, he would have been sure to add that qualifier.  Since he didn't, it's fair to assume the tape and what he heard wasn't at odds.

Greg Cosell said in 2022 Jones was spoon feed the offense.

To me spoon feed means, given the offense in increments as to reduce the need to think


What exactly do you think Cosell means by that?

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 03:16:10 PMChris,

Let us be accurate here.  When Cosell says he hears how smart Jones is, he refers to football intelligence, not general intelligence.

Once again, avoiding the issue. 

But to you point and i will say it again, Jones is smart and as I have stated in this thread that includes Jones being football smart.  Jones is academic football smart though, white board smarts. Sitting talking shop, X's and O's with Gruden  he clearly knows his stuff. 

On the field, real time processing at the line pre snap and in the play smarts not so much.  They are not the same. 

If you produce anyone saying as much it will be the first time I have ever heard Jones's in game mental football processing is that of a smart QB. I would love to hear the reference if it is out there. The film does not show that nor has any film review I have ever heard of or heard refenced related to Jones.

It is crazy what happens when expectation and pressure change the reality for peoples thinking processes. With Jones there is clearly a difference.




 

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 02:29:08 PMChris,

Why do you think Greg Cosell was hearing how smart Daniel Jones is?

You have failed to address much of anything I have said.  You have however responded with logical fallacy after logical fallacy.
You ignore direct questions.
I agree Jones is smart.  I have said it over and over, he is very smart Duke grad.  I simply elaborated that he makes very simple mistakes in key moments in the absence of pressure.
But you brought up Greg Cosell, Greg Cosell said of Jones after the 2022 season. 
I feel like the spoon feed him (jones), watching the film I feel like they told him if you see an opening run. I (Greg) feel like they wanted him running more and throwing....

spoon feed is defined by  provide (someone) with so much help or information that they do not need to think for themselves.

Greg's words based on his film review.

He goes on to say he watched tons of Buffalo film and Daboll has a vast intermediate and vertical attack in his offense he choose not to use with Jones.

I am glad you choose Greg Cosell as the approved expert.  His 43 years with NFL films would certainly support that. Without the benefit of getting to ask him any follow up questions he is supporting everything I have been saying.

 

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 01:43:50 PMChris, when it comes to tape breakdown (particularly the Giants), I have absolute faith in only two outsiders.  This is due to my point earlier about the limitations of outsiders to be fully aware of the facts.


Carl Banks- because he can talk to the coaches, and when he breaks down tape before or does not speak to coaches, he discusses the limitations of his conclusions.

Greg Cosell-  The man is extremely careful in qualifying his opinions and clearly stating the limitations of his observations.  Speaking of the man back in July 2023 he had this to say about Jones, ""I've heard really good things about how smart he is"


Pat doesn't do tape breakdowns, but I enjoy listening to and watching Bobby and Nick. However, I don't take what either person says in blind faith because I know they don't have all the information they need to draw completely accurate conclusions (they will be right more than they are wrong, but they simply can't be perfect).

I'm not blindly listening to any individual and to remove them I specifically poised a question that exists in the absence of defensive pressure, absence of scheme  and analyst interpretation.

Presnap reads, this is as simple as simple gets; overhang pressure and empty protection.

How does a smart Duke graduate, 5th year starter make incorrect elementary pre snap reads ?

Maybe, just maybe Wonderlic Index doesn't account for all the intangibles associated with intellect and the situations it is applied...


The consensus idea was an extra , but fair enough. Maybe we can ask Patricia to ask Banks

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 12:02:03 PMChris,

Did you see the post I made a week or two ago where Daboll was very critical of the people claiming Jones was missing WRs etc because the people doing the reviews (in Daboll's opinion) lacked all the information about the play.  The reviewer would point to a wide receiver (for example), but be unaware the receiver ran the wrong route and that the QB wouldn't be looking there.

When you listen to outsiders breaking down Giants "film" you have to appreciate they are doing so with maybe 80% of the information they need to be accurate

I did but lets stay on topic.


Empty protection is a basic pre snap read,  6>5 or 7>5.

Certainly simple enough for a smart Duke grad who is a student of the game of football (both comments I complete agree with).  Yet he failed to recognize it,  as such failed to even look in the direction of it; resulting in sack instead of throwing to the hot read.   

Maybe other intangibles exist within a QB's mental game that are not accounted for in a Wonderlic Test Score?

This is not assuming QB progressions or if a route was correct as was the case on your referenced topic. 

Overhang pressure is an extremely basic pre snap read, this also has nothing to do with the Daboll's  comment on wrong routes.


Ask Tricia, Nick Falato and Bobby Skinner if Daniel Jones is :
1- In buffalo how would you describe Daboll's offense on degrees of complexity ?
2- Are the Giants running the same system as Daboll ran in Buffalo?
3- In Daboll's first year did Jones run a simple or complicated offense?
4- In Daboll's year 2 was Jones asked to grow and take on more complexity and how did he handle it?

Get their answers and lets revisit the conversation.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 11:29:48 AMChris,

Seeing ghosts because the Giants are guilty of malpractice in terms of getting the living crap beat out of him is different than not being intelligent and capable of processing.  I think you and many fans really fail to appreciate just how terrible the blocking was for Jones.  Jones had the fastest time to pressure (both Taylor and DeVito enjoyed more time before pressure) due to a massive failure of the line to pick up stunts and blitzes, and he was the one without Thomas that allowed for the LT to completely whiff on his blind side blocks.

Also, in 2022, as the season wore on, Barkley was running less, and Jones was throwing more (something you didn't mention)

Between the factual evidence of what two coaches and GMs did and Wonderlic test, I see little reason to believe the claims of needing to dumb things down

I gave you two presnap reads he failed to process in 2023.  That came before any pressure was applied.  On a white board I am sure he explained that just fine, yet on the field he clearly chocked.  Completely failed to recognize to simple pre snap reads. So that exist outside of facts?  I agree he is smart but it still happened even in week 1 when his PTSD didn't set in.

Furthermore, in game 1 vs Dallas last year, Jones was responsible for 5 of the 11 sacks and had the 7th most time of the QB's who played that day. At least 3 of those were his fault before the ball was even snapped. That throws out the line and pressure argument related to those. 

Jones had the 2nd worst line in NFL history, no doubt!!!   and Jones found a way to make them worse with his decision making and poor play.