Does anyone think otherwise? Build through the Draft. They may actually sign a decent backup QB and skip drafting one.
AMEN Ed. From your lips......
Where was this "rebuild" during the season when we looked awful?
Barkley was my throw the remote draft choice until they drafted Daniel Jones, neither of which have any attachment to the current GM and Head Coach. Barkley lived up to the selection but he can get more elsewhere.
Reboot.
Quote from: EliWasrobbed on March 11, 2024, 04:32:58 PMWhere was this "rebuild" during the season when we looked awful?
I think you mean "season
s".
Quote from: Giant Obsession on March 11, 2024, 04:28:32 PMAMEN Ed. From your lips......
They let two of the best players on the team walk for comp picks. Signing frugal FA's so far. It's going to be an interesting Draft. I wouldn't be surprised if they go to the trenches heavily.
Extra 2nd rounder this year. Couple of 3rd round comp picks next year. If they can hit on some of these picks, they can add 5 impact starters in the next 2 drafts.
They need to preserve some flexibility for next year's free agency period and just worry about growth and program-building this year.
If this is truly a rebuild, then we really should draft a QB. Assuming that they like one of the top ones. This all said, sounds like at least three will go before we pick. I would rather go for one of the top WRs anyway. Or maybe trade down if someone offers a lot. We really need to start to accumulate picks and build this team. Again.
Wow this franchise has really fallen a long way. We have pretty much been a bad franchise for over thirty years now except for a few random years, as well as the early to mid Eli years. We literally have had losing seasons 50% of the time since SB 25. Not acceptable.
I like the moves so far, you over pay when your a piece away not 20. I think it was smart to let Barkley and Mckinney go. They would have cost us 110 million at nonprememuim positions. This is smart, the difference in Dane Belton and Mckinney isn't 20 million.
They're not going anywhere with their QB room as is. I doubt they're taking one high in this draft either.
So it's build up the roster and when all the pieces are in place, top it with a franchise QB.
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If the team flops again this year, will Daboll be around for 2025? Or is his departure part of the rebuild?
This may be the worst giants team to ever exist next year
Quote from: uconnjack8 on March 11, 2024, 04:54:27 PMIf the team flops again this year, will Daboll be around for 2025? Or is his departure part of the rebuild?
Interesting thought. It appears he's along for the ride unless he implodes.
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 11, 2024, 05:01:56 PMInteresting thought. It appears he's along for the ride unless he implodes.
Ed,
I just cannot see Daboll surviving a true rebuild year that it looks like they are headed toward. And don't get me wrong, I think a true rebuild is needed.
Just seems like he maybe a sacrifice for Schoen at this point.
The one thing I dont want to see is a QB drafted this year and regime change next year. And I will be happy if they get Maye or Daniel's somehow.
The philosophy of waiting until the end of the season to sit down and evaluate, eliminates snap decisions, and shoot from the hips moves.
The downside is that they lost out on any trade opportunities for Barkley and McKinney. Probably could have gotten a second and a third at least for each. Leo was on the back nine so that move was a good one. They can even sign him back if they wanted as a stop gap at a good price.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on March 11, 2024, 05:06:36 PMEd,
I just cannot see Daboll surviving a true rebuild year that it looks like they are headed toward. And don't get me wrong, I think a true rebuild is needed.
Just seems like he maybe a sacrifice for Schoen at this point.
The one thing I dont want to see is a QB drafted this year and regime change next year. And I will be happy if they get Maye or Daniel's somehow.
If they draft a QB, you don't think Daboll has at least until after 2025? If they don't draft a QB, then I can see Daboll out after this year.
The Giants have to do the painful work. The playoffs in '22 were a mirage. Soft loser schedule and a TON of good luck. Last year harder schedule and no luck and look what happened. They need to get better at 9 spots on offense and 7 spots on defense. They are not one or two star players away from Super Bowl contention. So build through the draft, stop gap with more "reasonable" FA's to bide time, and keep on building.
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 11, 2024, 05:09:17 PMIf they draft a QB, you don't think Daboll has at least until after 2025? If they don't draft a QB, then I can see Daboll out after this year.
If the offense doesnt improve I don't see how Daboll survives. Even if they are playing a rookie QB.
The team seemed to be behind him last year as there wasnt an effort dropoff when they were out of it. If the offense continues to be one of the worst in the league, I doubt that is the case again.
Regardless its March and a lot can happen before September. Right now I feel like this year is going to be a 2 or 3 win season but maybe Runyan takes a step forward and Neal becomes a competent RT and they have a decent offense.
Sorry, but today has made me about as pessimistic as I get in the offseason.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on March 11, 2024, 05:20:26 PMIf the offense doesnt improve I don't see how Daboll survives. Even if they are playing a rookie QB.
The team seemed to be behind him last year as there wasnt an effort dropoff when they were out of it. If the offense continues to be one of the worst in the league, I doubt that is the case again.
Regardless its March and a lot can happen before September. Right now I feel like this year is going to be a 2 or 3 win season but maybe Runyan takes a step forward and Neal becomes a competent RT and they have a decent offense.
Sorry, but today has made me about as pessimistic as I get in the offseason.
maybe pigs will fly too
Unless the giants draft a non JJ McCarthy qb, they will be taking a step back offensively
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 11, 2024, 04:23:38 PMDoes anyone think otherwise? Build through the Draft. They may actually sign a decent backup QB and skip drafting one.
I think after the Burns trade, Schoen thinks otherwise
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 11, 2024, 07:00:39 PMI think after the Burns trade, Schoen thinks otherwise
in essence is was a draft build. They gave up a second and a fifth for an established player. Build the trenches, as I said.
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 11, 2024, 07:18:42 PMin essence is was a draft build. They gave up a second and a fifth for an established player. Build the trenches, as I said.
When you are rebuilding, you do so through the draft. You trade away highly-paid veterans for more picks, not the other way around.
Wait Burns is only 26 and has plenty of tread on his tires.
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Quote from: uconnjack8 on March 11, 2024, 05:20:26 PMIf the offense doesnt improve I don't see how Daboll survives. Even if they are playing a rookie QB.
The team seemed to be behind him last year as there wasnt an effort dropoff when they were out of it. If the offense continues to be one of the worst in the league, I doubt that is the case again.
Regardless its March and a lot can happen before September. Right now I feel like this year is going to be a 2 or 3 win season but maybe Runyan takes a step forward and Neal becomes a competent RT and they have a decent offense.
Sorry, but today has made me about as pessimistic as I get in the offseason.
If the OL additions don't work out, we're screwed.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 11, 2024, 07:20:37 PMWhen you are rebuilding, you do so through the draft. You trade away highly-paid veterans for more picks, not the other way around.
Mighty,
I agree with you
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on March 11, 2024, 07:37:11 PMIf the OL additions don't work out, we're screwed.
If Brian Burns plays like Leonard Williams we are also screwed.
Not a rebuild unless they bring in a rookie QB. If they traded McKinney and Barkley in mid season last year I'd say that is starting a rebuild.
Also they will need Waller to return or else they need a TE. Not sure if one will cut it
Unless I am mistaken, had we signed Barkley for $13 million and McKinney for $17 million that would be $30 million of cap space we used . What would be left to fill other holes . I do not know how Burn's contract now affects what we have left .
this team would be STACKED had we just signed Saquon to a 3 year and tagged Jones, we would be able to draft a Caleb Williams in that situation and be a contender next year.
FUCKIN JONES!
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on March 11, 2024, 07:22:17 PMWait Burns is only 26 and has plenty of tread on his tires.
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Exactly Andrew; a 26 year old edge can absolutely be considered part of a full rebuild; if all goes well, and the Giants get the QB right, they can be competitive in 2-years, which Burns will only be 28. If they don't get the QB right, non of it matters anyway...
Quote from: EliWasrobbed on March 11, 2024, 04:59:36 PMThis may be the worst giants team to ever exist next year
Ha ha. You don't know anything. Calm yourself. Been plenty worse in my lifetime.
Quote from: kingm56 on March 11, 2024, 10:57:41 PMExactly Andrew; a 26 year old edge can absolutely be considered part of a full rebuild; if all goes well, and the Giants get the QB right, they can be competitive in 2-years, which Burns will only be 28. If they don't get the QB right, non of it matters anyway...
he absolutely is not when we GAVE UP a second rounder to get him and he is taking up so much of our cap space.
this is the move of a desperate power hungry man/GM who knows his ass is on the line if they don't win games next season. I have 100% confidence we are going QB seeing the Burns situation play out
Quote from: spiderblue43 on March 11, 2024, 11:08:10 PMHa ha. You don't know anything. Calm yourself. Been plenty worse in my lifetime.
i know plenty sir, no need to be a dick.
defensively after the Burns move we are much better.. BUT assuming we don't draft a QB, this will be potentially the worst offense of 21st century football even with our 2 oline additions. Save this post!
Quote from: EliWasrobbed on March 11, 2024, 11:09:39 PMi know plenty sir, no need to be a dick.
defensively after the Burns move we are much better.. BUT assuming we don't draft a QB, this will be potentially the worst offense of 21st century football even with our 2 oline additions. Save this post!
Okay, simply check the 64, 66 and 73 Giants..who were godawful. Hyperbole is so grand.
Quote from: EliWasrobbed on March 11, 2024, 11:09:39 PMi know plenty sir, no need to be a dick.
defensively after the Burns move we are much better.. BUT assuming we don't draft a QB, this will be potentially the worst offense of 21st century football even with our 2 oline additions. Save this post!
If we fix the offensive line, it will be a better offense even if Daniel Jones is still the QB.
Quote from: AYM on March 11, 2024, 11:22:06 PMIf we fix the offensive line, it will be a better offense even if Daniel Jones is still the QB.
fixing the oline does not make our running game any better without Saquon. This will easily be a bottom 5 run team especially without Jones's running being effective bc of injury.
unless they draft drake or daniels, this offense will be even worse than last year, no doubt in my mind.
Quote from: spiderblue43 on March 11, 2024, 11:13:17 PMOkay, simply check the 64, 66 and 73 Giants..who were godawful. Hyperbole is so grand.
I said "21st century"
the rules back then were also different
Quote from: EliWasrobbed on March 11, 2024, 11:31:59 PMfixing the oline does not make our running game any better without Saquon. This will easily be a bottom 5 run team especially without Jones's running being effective bc of injury.
unless they draft drake or daniels, this offense will be even worse than last year, no doubt in my mind.
The RB we signed had close to the same amount of yards as Saquon as was previously stated so I fail to understand what is so bad
Quote from: Trench on March 12, 2024, 12:34:26 AMThe RB we signed had close to the same amount of yards as Saquon as was previously stated so I fail to understand what is so bad
remind me what team he was on?and who his QB was?
The elephant in the room , not literally , is Evan Neal and we will not know how he will be under our new OL coach. If he turns it around and becomes the OL that we had hoped for when we drafted him, and we add a number 1 WR in either Nabers or Odozone, we will not be Debbie Downers as some posters on this board have become.
It is threads like this that make me wish we had an ignore button. Obstreperous opinion oft repeated becomes no more convincing.
Let us see where we are when camp starts. The roster today is not the roster tomorrow, let alone then.
Threads are becoming unreadable. Using the "f" word, making up things. Stating opinions as facts.
Tough to have a back and forth about this team the last few weeks...
Will preface my post by saying that I am uncharacteristically pessimistic right now. So apologies for raining on the optimism parade.
My first thought about this thread is that I cannot recall a "rebuild" ever starting with a spending spree on the 1st day of FA. I realize there was only one big money contract and we haven't seen any of the contracts full details.
Burns from what I have seen looks like a good pass rusher who is a average run defender and mediocre tackler. The projection involved to make his contract in line with his performance feels to me just like the Olivier Vernon signing in 2016. A young player who has pretty good numbers but is coming into his prime and will be better with the Giants than he was with his previous team. Vernon wasn't bad, but I seem to recall people couldn't wait to get rid of his contract in a couple of years after he was signed.
One of my biggest fears this offseason after the departure of Wink was that the Giants would now need to re-tool the defense to make the new system work. A 2nd round pick for a very good pass rusher is not a big price, but when coupled with one of the biggest contracts ever given to a DE, that's a lot. Hopefully Deonte Banks and most of the secondary are a scheme fit as well as the LBs (I doubt it though).
Keep in mind this team now has over 50 million/year invested in two players on the DL. With Thibodeaux added in with his rookie deal its over 60 million/year in 3 players on the DL. I think the game is won and lost in the trenches, just have a hard time thinking its a good idea to invest 25% of the cap in 3 guys on the same unit.
The guards that were signed seemed to have good pass blocking ratings and much weaker run blocking ratings. The money invested was not huge (especially when you look at other guards signed yesterday) and I think its nice to see a theme of trying to develop one thing the unit is good at. One of the problems of the past is that there was a hodge podge of good zone blocker vs good man to man vs good in pass pro but not good in run blocking. Are either of these two guards thought to be much better than Glowinski was when he was signed? I'll assume they both fit what the new OL coach wants.
These moves tell me the plan is to move forward with Jones and try to get him better blocking to pass the ball. I am very much anticipating that a WR is drafted at #6 to give Jones a difference maker. I would also expect the 2nd round to be used on offense considering the investment made on defense already.
My conclusion thus far is that Schoen spent money on day 1 of FA because he feels pressure to make immediate improvements not start a rebuild. Jones will need to show he can really be a valuable pocket passer as he will no longer have the run game to lean on. It will likely be used more like it has been in Buffalo.
We'll see how the rest of the offseason goes and hopefully the moves they have made will be successful.
Quote from: londonblue on March 12, 2024, 06:26:43 AMIt is threads like this that make me wish we had an ignore button. Obstreperous opinion oft repeated becomes no more convincing.
Let us see where we are when camp starts. The roster today is not the roster tomorrow, let alone then.
There is an ignore function.
Click your name in the upper left corner and click ignore list.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on March 12, 2024, 08:19:03 AMWill preface my post by saying that I am uncharacteristically pessimistic right now. So apologies for raining on the optimism parade.
My first thought about this thread is that I cannot recall a "rebuild" ever starting with a spending spree on the 1st day of FA. I realize there was only one big money contract and we haven't seen any of the contracts full details.
Burns from what I have seen looks like a good pass rusher who is a average run defender and mediocre tackler. The projection involved to make his contract in line with his performance feels to me just like the Olivier Vernon signing in 2016. A young player who has pretty good numbers but is coming into his prime and will be better with the Giants than he was with his previous team. Vernon wasn't bad, but I seem to recall people couldn't wait to get rid of his contract in a couple of years after he was signed.
One of my biggest fears this offseason after the departure of Wink was that the Giants would now need to re-tool the defense to make the new system work. A 2nd round pick for a very good pass rusher is not a big price, but when coupled with one of the biggest contracts ever given to a DE, that's a lot. Hopefully Deonte Banks and most of the secondary are a scheme fit as well as the LBs (I doubt it though).
Keep in mind this team now has over 50 million/year invested in two players on the DL. With Thibodeaux added in with his rookie deal its over 60 million/year in 3 players on the DL. I think the game is won and lost in the trenches, just have a hard time thinking its a good idea to invest 25% of the cap in 3 guys on the same unit.
The guards that were signed seemed to have good pass blocking ratings and much weaker run blocking ratings. The money invested was not huge (especially when you look at other guards signed yesterday) and I think its nice to see a theme of trying to develop one thing the unit is good at. One of the problems of the past is that there was a hodge podge of good zone blocker vs good man to man vs good in pass pro but not good in run blocking. Are either of these two guards thought to be much better than Glowinski was when he was signed? I'll assume they both fit what the new OL coach wants.
These moves tell me the plan is to move forward with Jones and try to get him better blocking to pass the ball. I am very much anticipating that a WR is drafted at #6 to give Jones a difference maker. I would also expect the 2nd round to be used on offense considering the investment made on defense already.
My conclusion thus far is that Schoen spent money on day 1 of FA because he feels pressure to make immediate improvements not start a rebuild. Jones will need to show he can really be a valuable pocket passer as he will no longer have the run game to lean on. It will likely be used more like it has been in Buffalo.
We'll see how the rest of the offseason goes and hopefully the moves they have made will be successful.
Well done.
Regarding the spending spree, I heard on Talkin Giants the Giants spent $200 million yesterday, which led all teams. As you say, that is most definitely not how traditional rebuilds are done
It seems to me that there is a shift in how the Offense will be based on. It's moving from a Run Based to a Pass Based Offense. The focus was not to invest Cap dollars on two players, when there are glaring needs at the foundation level of the team. Pass Protection and Pass Rush.
When the new DC was brought in it was portending a change in philosophy from an attacking blitz rush the passer to getting pressure from the Front four or five. The contract bringing in Burns in a few years will be dwarfed by other deals and the draft capital given up was what was received for Leo. So a younger player that will along with Thibs apply pressure on the edges while Dex provides push up the middle.
No matter who the QB was last season, the pass protection hindered the passing game from getting the ball downfield. Two important holes were plugged and if they resign Bredeson and Phillips, the upgrade is significant. It doesn't tell me anything about their plans over the QB situation. If they draft a QB, the anticipated protection will only aid in the development and rapid progress. If they don't draft a QB in the first round, it doesn't preclude them from targeting one in the second round or next year.
They have needs to fill, but Oline and Pass Rushers are now taken off the table for the first round. They can still pick up an olineman later in a deep draft. They need to bolster Defensive Backs and that may be a FA decision, but they need a Safety and two Corners. Flott and Holmes ain't cutting it. WR, can be upgraded in the draft, but they need to get the ball to the two Receivers they drafted, WDR and Jalin Hyatt. A 3 Tech is a need. They need another RB and Gray may or may not be the guy.
No matter how this team winds up, it's still a year or two away from being a contender. They need to Draft solid players and a couple of All Pro caliber players and that will take more than this year to accomplish.
If they don't move on from Barkley and McKinney, they would have needed to add PR and PP to their list of needs in the Draft and we know the crap shoot that is. So proven commodities allow the focus to address the many needs still outstanding.
Leo, Adoree, Saquon and McKinney all gone. Waller likely gone. Ojulari reduced to a backup.
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 12, 2024, 09:28:54 AMLeo, Adoree, Saquon and McKinney all gone. Waller likely gone. Ojulari reduced to a backup.
Ojulari may thrive and be healthier as the back up to both burns and thibs
Quote from: Jclayton92 on March 12, 2024, 10:45:56 AMOjulari may thrive and be healthier as the back up to both burns and thibs
His FA price just dropped too. If that's not an incentive, he's not paying attention.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on March 12, 2024, 10:45:56 AMOjulari may thrive and be healthier as the back up to both burns and thibs
THis I agree with 100%
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 12, 2024, 09:28:54 AMLeo, Adoree, Saquon and McKinney all gone. Waller likely gone. Ojulari reduced to a backup.
I thought Waller stated he wanted to keep playing ... and Giants stated they wanted him back?
Did something else happen ?
Quote from: killarich on March 12, 2024, 10:54:10 AMI thought Waller stated he wanted to keep playing ... and Giants stated they wanted him back?
Did something else happen ?
Really? Ok, didn't know that.
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 12, 2024, 10:58:52 AMReally? Ok, didn't know that.
I mean I believed that was the wording used.... well at least I hope so lol
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 12, 2024, 10:58:52 AMReally? Ok, didn't know that.
Last I saw was that he was "undecided" and the giants weren't pressing him for a decision.
Quote from: EliWasrobbed on March 11, 2024, 11:09:39 PMi know plenty sir, no need to be a dick.
defensively after the Burns move we are much better.. BUT assuming we don't draft a QB, this will be potentially the worst offense of 21st century football even with our 2 oline additions. Save this post!
Exactly the post that will get you banned. Congrats for making this easy
Quote from: gregf on March 12, 2024, 01:29:42 PMExactly the post that will get you banned. Congrats for making this easy
did you see the post I was responding to? I am here to talk about the Giants not engage in personal attacks.
Hopefully we get off to a good start. Thibs will be under scrutiny as will the new defense. Will we allow big yardage ...will we play for only allowing field goals...will our pass rushers get tired early....do we have too many for mer Bills ...is Daniel Jones ready to turn the page