Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: TDToomer on October 10, 2023, 12:24:07 PMGiants WR snap counts from Sunday

Parris Campbell   WR   16   22%   0   0%   0   0%
Sterling ShepardWR   20   28%   0   0%   0   0%
Isaiah Hodgins   WR   28   39%   0   0%   0   0%
Jalin Hyatt   WR   33   46%   0   0%   0   0%
Wan'Dale RobinsonWR   48   67%   0   0%   0   0%
Darius Slayton   WR   49   68%   0   0%   0   

Campbell has really been phased out with Shep getting into the game more.
Hodgins was almost our #1 WR in the playoffs but is also getting phased out now
Hyatt is on the field but is not getting the targets

Posted a thread on this yesterday.  I am interested in what Hyatt's snap count will be this week and whether last week was just a blip that had more to do with the opponent and match ups or if he's falling out of favor.  I do think the trend of Campbell and Hodgins of getting fewer snap counts each week means unless there is an injury that they are at the bottom of the depth chart.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 10, 2023, 01:27:05 PMPeople will always romanticize the Giants because we've won 2 super bowls that people can still remember and if you do win in the market then you are the guy and that can do wonders for your off the field career.

So no I doubt anyone would turn down the Giants for the bears or panthers.

People have short term memories of what the Giants used to be like.  It almost feels like those people are bashing the Giants to justify their own position over the current team's situation.  I just don't see how anyone can make the case that a QB prospect is going to see the Bears or Cardinals (remember Carolina doesn't have their 24 1st round pick) as a more favorable landing spot than the Giants.

Quote from: babywhales on October 10, 2023, 01:03:32 PMIn short I see Jones's being a better QB behind an average to above average line and ultimately the Giants offense being better and leading to more wins against the lower 2/3rds - 3/4's of the league's teams. But I do not see him excelling with the traits that will help him win against the best defenses in the toughest of games. I simply do not see an improved O line allowing for Jones to start excelling at the critical traits carried in an elite QB.

This is what it comes down to for me and why IMO if things don't do a 180 the Giants should be (if John Mara allows Schoen) drafting a QB next spring.  We are in year 5 and almost 60 starts into his career.  There is no mystery with him we've seen his ability and his limitations.  This isn't like Geno Smith or Rich Gannon who had half the number of starts Jones has had before they went elsewhere and put up good to great season's.  This is Alex Smith who has shown in the right environment that he was able to be a solid NFL QB.  But like Andy Reid found out in Kansas City that is only going to take a team so far especially when they are taking up a significant chunk of cap space.

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 01:36:34 PMInteresting point.

To add to that, it's also possible that Dab/Ka didn't expect teams to have a plan to counter what the Giants wanted to do offensively and have it be as effective as it has been so far.

Think they also expected Jones to take a step forward this season figuring they could put more on his plate and have found out that they can't.

Quote from: Messiah717 on October 10, 2023, 11:58:08 AMWhat I will never understand from some is the hyper obsession with Daniel Jones when overall the team absolutely stinks and is lacking in all areas.  Is this the New York Giants or the New York Daniel Jones?  This all needs to be rebuilt with a solid foundation on offense and defense.  Until that's done the Giants will never have long term success.  I don't see how one can watch this franchise stink up every Sunday slate and still have the main concern always be Daniel Jones.  Whether it's positive or negative.   

In a passing league a QB who is on their second contract is always going to get more attention and criticism when things aren't going well by the media and that team's fan base.  Fair or unfair it's just how it is.

Quote from: GMenRF on October 10, 2023, 11:58:10 AMThey cut ties with Meyer and got Pedersen to help develop Lawrence.  While DJ had a coach who knew how to use him and they let him go to get Judge/Garrett.  That's the complete opposite.

They also went into free agency to add talent to the WR group who actually have produced.  Did Golladay do anything for us to help with the development of DJ?  No.  Has Waller helped bailing out DJ thus far?  No - in fact you put number 88 on him and you could swear it's like having Engram with his case of dropsies.

Not to mention aside from the media @$s kissing that Lawrence gets, he doesn't have half the fan base bashing him.

Unless you want to fire Schoen and Daboll you would have an executive and a coach who were responsible for drafting and developing Josh Allen in Buffalo.  The same argument can be made as you did for Jacksonville with Trevor Lawrence.

At the end of the day a blue chip QB prospect is not going to turn away the idea of being drafted by the Giants unless it's a case like Philip Rivers who was a good old country boy who would never have been comfortable in a big market.

Quote from: GMenRF on October 10, 2023, 11:45:45 AMGiven with the track record our team has going back to 2008 do you have any confidence in being able to put a young QB coming in here to develop properly?

We couldn't even protect Eli let a alone a rookie who will be thrown into the fire day 1.

Then we're going to hear the same arguments made by those who supported DJ - well he doesn't have protection.  He doesn't enough talent around him.  There no competent coaches to develop him properly and 5 years down the line were back to square one.

It's called NFL for a reason - Not For Long - and the product that Dabes and Co are putting out there is garbage.  Like I said, he's not going to throw anyone under the bus but there is something wrong in that locker room and Daboll knows it.

From being competitive even in spite of the lack of talent to supposedly better talent all around and getting blown out  is absolutely alarming.

Again look at the Bears and Cardinals.  The Bears best QB that I can remember is Jay Cutler.  They've been a rotation of bad QB's that change frequently.  Then you have the Cardinals who a year after drafting Rosen dumped him to draft Murray.  Now they are looking to get him.

Unless you are in a situation like Mahomes was being drafted 10th when the team drafting him traded up chances are you are going to be drafted by a franchise that's a mess.  Trevor Lawrence was and yet he has succeeded in Jacksonville.

Quote from: GMenRF on October 10, 2023, 11:48:08 AMWe had TC.  He has a track record even with the Jaguars - as new franchise they were competitive during his tenure there.  We also had a good GM and a well respected owner.  That is completely different now.

Maybe you don't remember but at the time Coughlin didn't have the best reputation as being a player friendly coach after the way things ended in Jacksonville. 

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 11:38:31 AMWhat is it that you want me to see?

Look - I get it. Rambo has a few canned statements about Jones that he copies and pastes in just about every thread. You know it's coming, just like Jones checking down instead of hitting an open receiver. It is what it is.

As has already been pointed out: 1) he's not bashing Jones. If anything, we're taking more abuse having to read the same thing in every thread. But saying he's severely criticizing our QB is not correct. He's just stuck on repeating it. 2) He can be blocked.

I own my mistakes on here. I tried to clarify to Rich earlier (which he ignored) that my PFF thread post from yesterday was not intended to be a shot at him personally.  You're right that I am a big boy that can own mistakes admit wrong doing and acknowledge at times I'm repetitive.

What I can't stand are the individuals who refuse to acknowledge their own wrong doing and how similar their tactics are.  They make themselves out to be victims when they are no different than most of us here.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 11:38:37 AMTo answer the question, I would say no.  The owner of the Giants literally admitted to doing everything to screw up Daniel Jones (their current QB).  This season they are back to that "doing everything to screw up Daniel Jones".  So why on earth would I believe that if I were drafted by the Giants things would go better for me? 

We could have had the same conversation in 2004 as to why would anyone want to come to the Giants after the Dave Brown, Kannel and Graham debacles along with Kerry Collins in the disaster of a 2003 season?  Yet Eli Manning still wanted to come here over San Diego.

Quote from: JT39 on October 10, 2023, 11:36:11 AMT200,

What do you call the Jones consistent bashers who claim posters thst Jones needs "elite" talent in order for him to be successful - when not one poster has ever made this claim?

I know at least 4 posters who made this claim directly at me. That's why I am using the ignore posters.

These posters are the exact definition of posting "intellectually dishonesty".

The same thing you would say to those who have labeled those who have said Jones is an average QB as being haters and saying he is bad QB.  The same thing you would say to those who have been critical of Jones as being labeled as people who are giving the offensive line a pass.

Let's not act like this is just going in one direction.

Check this out and by the way this was a post that @MightyGiants liked encouraging shots at people who are critical of Jones as "lacking common sense".  What does it say to posters when he likes a post like that being in his position?  It says he supports those who take personal shots at Jones critics.

Quote from: DragonSoul on October 06, 2023, 01:34:03 PMNice job with the common sense. Most seem to be lacking. Get hit 30 times a game, you get shell shocked like David Carr did in Houston. Then ur internal clock is sped way up and you trust nothing. Which in turn makes you miss potential opportunities. Or you can stay in the pocket get drilled, then injured or a concussion as another option.

The line will finally be fixed when we we have no QB who can play that position well. There will be an oline but no real qb. Now we have a QB & when we had Eli & no oline.

Quote from: DragonSoul on October 10, 2023, 11:12:30 AM1- Some people post to get their point across from the pros (good/bad) others post for debate or just to inform.

2- Not sure if you are calling me intellectually dishonest. But I have praised and criticized DJ from the start. But vs Arizona I may have posted in only one thread about him (also spoke about st, etc), as u said there are many threads on him ad nauseam. So the people who supported him or neutral posted. Many who are "against" him not much of a squeak. I post in both pro/con and neutral, win/lose or draw. But I limit them because it is tedious and repetitive and much of it is out of context.

But just like the old forums with the Eli debate at a point I totally ignored them all. Even after Eli won people still either gave him a short leash or wanted him gone. Seems similar to what we got here. DJ hasn't won't a SB (and may never will) but you get the same feeling as when Eli & TC heads were called for to be fired.

Haven't seen any criticism from Jones from you but maybe I missed that because most of the time I see you either defending him or taking shots at those who are critical of him.

Quote from: DragonSoul on October 10, 2023, 11:22:57 AMReally? The whole world knows their opinions and saying it obviously or overtly is not bashing? You can criticize the player, the plays but when everything is the same or sounds the same at what point do you put a cork in it? At what point is that not bullying/bashing. Your analogy of beating a dead horse is perfect example of bashing. Beating dead horse implies what? And then saying (bashing) the same thing over and over. Seems like bashing to me. Yes there are people similar on the other side. Still same crap, different smell.

Now apply this to all of the threads on the offensive line and commentary bashing them.

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 10:57:25 AMRich,

If we are to value each other's opinions, then we can't relabel them to fit our views. When Rambo says "Jones needs to be propped up to be successful" and you say "Jones can't be successful without an NFL-caliber supporting cast", you're both saying the same thing. But you call it "bashing" or "severe criticism" when Rambo says it.

This is the third and last time I will seek your response on this.

"If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge Tim's statement."

It's a similar story when topics relating to the offensive line come up.  We all pretty much agree that the line has been bad yet it gets taken that if you're being critical of Jones that means you're giving the offensive line a pass.  It's creating a straw man that doesn't exist while at the same time accusing others of doing the same thing.

Quote from: Trench on October 10, 2023, 10:47:01 AMI totally disagree Rambo. I believe our coach has made a very comfortable environment and it has now manifested onto the field. We lack a hunger instinct and if the owner wants to chime in that is his right.

It's the source the quote came from that I take issue with. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 10:42:06 AMTim,

Here is a prime example of the actual problem with our site (and it's not what you think).  I posted PFF grades as I have done for many years now.  Because Daniel Jones had a good grade from PFF, this is what he posted.


Now is that being respectful?   

Now before you try to figure out a way to blame me for his post, keep in mind I posted the grades without posting my opinion on the grades.  Could you see how when someone reacts so violently to simple PFF grades being posted, they create an impression of "bashing"?

I know this was directed at Tim but bringing up my post I thought I just clarify that when I said "you" in that thread I meant the general "you" not yourself personally.  If you go back that post did not include a quote from yourself it was a separate post.  If you took that as a shot at yourself I apologize as it wasn't the intention or implication of the post.

Teams that are in a position to draft a QB at the top of the draft typically aren't ideal situations which is why those teams are at the top of the draft.  You can take this and also apply it to teams like the Bears and Cardinals who will also be in that position.

And BTW it makes no sense to bring up point number 3 then finish off the post by going after the coaches.  You can't complain about instability and in the same breath go after the coach in year 2.  At some point you need to give one of these guys a third season and coming off a playoff appearance and win in year one I think Daboll has earned that.