Big Blue Huddle

That is an interesting take. I didn't even know that's what WanDale was supposed to do

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 10, 2023, 03:45:03 PMRather than start a new thread just thought I would share Boomer Esiason's take https://twitter.com/wfan660/status/1711807557528850568?s=61

So for every thread that people want to find and post that says it wasn't Jine 's fault, we can find an equal number from more credible people that say it IS on him.

Excellent observations by Boomer.

Honestly, I do not understand how anyone could not see the reality of the offense is as an indictment on the play of both, the Oline and QB's fault. 

to put it kindly both have not played well. 

Quote from: babywhales on October 11, 2023, 08:03:06 AMHonestly, I do not understand how anyone could not see the reality of the offense is as an indictment on the play of both, the Oline and QB's fault.

to put it kindly both have not played well.

I see that a lot of folks want to focus on just ONE aspect of what's going wrong, despite there being a laundry list of issues. They are all intertwined and one unit affects another.

@babywhales and @T200

As Kurt Warner said, no QB can function behind the Giants' offensive line.    Their pass blocking is historically bad.  Here is the Giants' PFF pass-blocking grade and I will list the grade for the worst pass-blocking unit from prior years

2023-  30.4 (Giants)
2022-  52.4 (Titans)
2021-  51.8 (Dolphins)
2020-  50.7 (Giants)
2019-  46.1 (Dolphins)
2018-  55.7 (Cardinals)
2017-  54.8 (Texans)
2016-  58.2 (Seahawks)
2015-  62.0 (Chargers)
2014-  66.2 (Bucs)
2013-  64.5 (Cards)

This is a historically bad line, the type no QB can properly function behind.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 11, 2023, 08:22:34 AM@babywhales and @T200

As Kurt Warner said, no QB can function behind the Giants' offensive line.    Their pass blocking is historically bad.  Here is the Giants' PFF pass-blocking grade and I will list the grade for the worst pass-blocking unit from prior years

2023-  30.4 (Giants)
2022-  52.4 (Titans)
2021-  51.8 (Dolphins)
2020-  50.7 (Giants)
2019-  46.1 (Dolphins)
2018-  55.7 (Cardinals)
2017-  54.8 (Texans)
2016-  58.2 (Seahawks)
2015-  62.0 (Chargers)
2014-  66.2 (Bucs)
2013-  64.5 (Cards)

This is a historically bad line, the type no QB can properly function behind.

I think I have been very clear in my content for the Oline calling them embarrassingly horrible, in fact at one point think I said they were a disgrace.  I am not sure how I could make my disgust for their play any clearer.

in past I have stated they need to secure in draft or FA extra for each position and let the cream rise to the top to assure the matter has been handled.

In the past 2 games Jones was sacked 18 times; nevertheless, 6 of those were his fault. The line is horrible but his inability to run the offense and process information makes them worse. 

Watching the All 22 shows in every game, shows Jones inability to process the mental side of the game consistently.  Presnap data processing exist without pressure. Mitakes are routinely happening before the snap.

Quote from: T200 on October 11, 2023, 08:08:13 AMI see that a lot of folks want to focus on just ONE aspect of what's going wrong, despite there being a laundry list of issues. They are all intertwined and one unit affects another.

And one's poor play doesn't excuse the other's poor play.  This idea that because the offensive line's play has been bad excuses Daniel Jones's poor play doesn't fly with me.  As Boomer Esiason and other analyst's have pointed out Jones has made a bad situation worse.  This is a 5th year QB on his second contract who the Giants just paid.  The expectations should be higher for his play if they aren't then why did the Giants ever pay him?

Quote from: babywhales on October 11, 2023, 09:06:30 AMI think I have been very clear in my content for the Oline calling them embarrassingly horrible, in fact at one point think I said they were a disgrace.  I am not sure how I could make my disgust for their play any clearer.

in past I have stated they need to secure in draft or FA extra for each position and let the cream rise to the top to assure the matter has been handled.

In the past 2 games Jones was sacked 18 times; nevertheless, 6 of those were his fault. The line is horrible but his inability to run the offense and process information makes them worse. 

Watching the All 22 shows in every game, shows Jones inability to process the mental side of the game consistently.  Presnap data processing exist without pressure. Mitakes are routinely happening before the snap.

Chris,

I appreciate and respect your opinions on this issue.  You stated that you couldn't understand how someone could have the opinion that this year's offensive line is so bad that it simply hasn't permitted adequate or good O-line play to such a degree that trying to evaluate DJ's (or any QB's really) performance is a bit of a pointless exercise.   I was just trying to explain why I hold the opinion I do.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 11, 2023, 09:44:14 AMAnd one's poor play doesn't excuse the other's poor play.  This idea that because the offensive line's play has been bad excuses Daniel Jones's poor play doesn't fly with me.  As Boomer Esiason and other analyst's have pointed out Jones has made a bad situation worse.  This is a 5th year QB on his second contract who the Giants just paid.  The expectations should be higher for his play if they aren't then why did the Giants ever pay him?

Very few of the players have earned their paychecks to this point in the season. And some coaches as well.

Quote from: T200 on October 11, 2023, 09:58:47 AMVery few of the players have earned their paychecks to this point in the season. And some coaches as well.

Absolutely no one is above criticism with how this season has gone (players, coaches and front office executives).

Quote from: T200 on October 11, 2023, 08:08:13 AMI see that a lot of folks want to focus on just ONE aspect of what's going wrong, despite there being a laundry list of issues. They are all intertwined and one unit affects another.

I don't know. I think we're all unified on the need to gut the OL and start over. For me personally, I want to hang on to Thomas and Schmitz and replace everyone else. If it takes 2-3 years to completely turn over so be it.

But I also understand that Daniel Jones is not the answer at the QB position. And that's where the divide is. There are people who say Jones can't be properly evaluated or no one can be successful behind this OL. I don't think you'll find anyone here who will defend the OL and say they can't be properly evaluated or deserve more time and grace.

If Eli Manning at his best were QBing this offense, I have no doubt they would be somewhat better. Not good, but not historically bad. The OL would still be terrible and in need of replacement but prime Eli would give you a professional QB performance.

I remember Ereck Flowers rookie year, Eli must have saved him from at least a dozen sacks allowed. Eli was masterful at covering up Flowers mistakes. I never understood why people thought Flowers played well as a rookie. It was all Eli bailing him out over and over again. But Eli was in his mid-30s by then and his decline was already starting.

Another example, people talk about David Carr as if he was a victim in Houston. He was sacked at historical records but as soon as they moved on from Carr and went to Matt Shaub, the number of sacks allowed by Houston went down by more than 50%. It was mostly the same OL but we're supposed to believe that Houston's OL was historically bad for 4 consecutive years and then when they change the QB the same OL is magically serviceable? And they magically went from 28th in passing offense under Carr to 14th under Shaub with largely the same OL personnel. That QB play had nothing to do with it? Sorry but I'm not buying it.

I think the intelligence, instincts and skill of a QB has a very real impact on the OL's statistical performance. This Giants OL is embarrassingly bad and needs to be replaced. But the QBs ineptitude is on him and he also needs to be replaced.

By the way, tremendous post by @babywhales. Good stuff!

I don't blame DJ for the situation they're in.

But he is not the answer at QB moving forward.

Here is my reasoning in a nutshell:

You cannot UNSEE GHOSTS.

Once it happens, even after all of last years therapy by way of game planning to hold his hand through last season, the next time the OL breaks down or can't hold off, which happened almost immediately this year...the ghosts come back and there's no returning from that long term.

The mistake Schoen and Daboll made was leveraging their ability to placate Meddling Mara in return for a shot at autonomously running this franchise.

The deal just blew up in there face and now they've taken us back to Joe Judge world part 2.

They should've known better, he's NEVER giving up control.


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