DJ vs Mahomes

[MightyGiants]

@kingm56

you said:

No disagreement here; however, there seems to be a narrative that DJ is playing without talent, which I simply believe isn't true.  Moreover, a top tier WR doesn't convert a bottom 10 passer to a top 10 one. Still, I do agree with your point.

Have you seen the improvement in Tua since he got Tyrek Hill?  Jalen Hurts since he got AJ Brown?

[beaugestus]

Although the Mahomes-DJ comparison is a bit much, but looking at the seasons that Rodgers, Brady, Stafford etc., as for Josh Allen yesterday he had a rough day getting sacked and pressured by the improving Jet D, the supporting cast is very important. I think we lose sight of that when we see them play. Another QB that is having his best season is Geno Smith he is finally playing with a very good coach and accentuated what he does best and building the O around that. Just like DJ. Now, I am not saying that DJ is better than the aforementioned, but I would like to see what he could do with better players around him.

[MightyGiants]

Although the Mahomes-DJ comparison is a bit much, but looking at the seasons that Rodgers, Brady, Stafford etc., as for Josh Allen yesterdayh e had a rough day getting sacked and pressured by the improving Jet D, the supporting cast is very important. I think we lose sight of that when we see them play. Another QB that is having his best season is Geno Smith he is finally playing with a very good coach and accentuated what he does best and building the O around that. Just like DJ. Now, I am not saying that DJ is better than the aforementioned, but I would like to see what he could do with better players around him.

Sometimes we forget that football is a team sport and a QBs is greatly impacted by the support he gets

[kingm56]

Missing throws was my point

You said he "looked like any other QB including DJ"; I completely disagree.  He looked special, and executed plays literally no other QB in the league could, despite the constant pressure from just the front four. If you watched the game, it wasn't too hard to glean that Mahomes was the best player on the field, despite said pressure.  I believe the same was true when he made perfect throws from a horizontal position during the KC vs TB SB.

[AZGiantFan]

I watched the entire Chiefs game.  Mahommes did not have an off night.  He was under pressure the entire night from both the edge and up the middle.  The Titans were relentless and hitting everyone hard and often.

Mahommes looked like any other QB including DJ when under constant pressure.  Rattled, uncomfortable and missing throws because he may get hit at any time.

The Giants are fortunate they didn't face this Titans' defense. 

[Trench]

This thread amazes me

[DaveBrown74]

I'm staying out of this one. I think the mere existence of the title of this thread speaks for itself.

[kingm56]

@kingm56

you said:

Have you seen the improvement in Tua since he got Tyrek Hill?  Jalen Hurts since he got AJ Brown?

@MightyGiants, Jalen Hurts was a Pro Bowler before Brown arrived; I was the poster on this very board that proclaimed he was going to be a Top 5 QB.  I didn't need to see him operating with a Tier-1 WR to glean he was special. Giants fans got a false impression of Hurts because he happened to have his worst game against us; still, he was Phili's entire offense last season and singlehandedly drove them to the playoffs. Also, when having this discussion, why doesn't anyone look at the other side of the coin?  Just as Mahomes hasn't seen a dip in production without Hill, neither has Tannehill:

2021: 357  531    67    3,734    7.0    21    14
2022: 323  496    65    3,729    7.5    20    10

As you can see, Tannehills numbers are almost identical with or without Brown.  Mahomes actually projects to have better numbers without Hill.  So, maybe there's a compromise by stating a tier-1 WR is more important to a young QB (<3yrs) than a veteran one? Regardless, I do concur that an AP receiver will help your QB; still, said players won't turn a bottom passer into a top-tier one...

[Trench]

King - you did nail it. I thought Hurts was one dimensional and was in the camp that he was being overhyped. Boy was I wrong.

[Ed Vette]

Funny how an off night was a 63% completion % with only one interception out of 63 throws. LOL

I'll bet Aaron Rodgers would take that off night any day.

[kingm56]

Funny how an off night was a 63% completion % with only one interception out of 63 throws. LOL

I'll bet Aaron Rodgers would take that off night any day.

Not to mention 400+ yards and another 63/1 TD running.  It shows us just how special of a player Mahomes is. 

[MightyGiants]

@MightyGiants, Jalen Hurts was a Pro Bowler before Brown arrived; I was the poster on this very board that proclaimed he was going to be a Top 5 QB.  I didn't need to see him operating with a Tier-1 WR to glean he was special. Giants fans got a false impression of Hurts because he happened to have his worst game against us; still, he was Phili's entire offense last season and singlehandedly drove them to the playoffs. Also, when having this discussion, why doesn't anyone look at the other side of the coin?  Just as Mahomes hasn't seen a dip in production without Hill, neither has Tannehill:

2021: 357  531    67    3,734    7.0    21    14
2022: 323  496    65    3,729    7.5    20    10

As you can see, Tannehills numbers are almost identical with or without Brown.  Mahomes actually projects to have better numbers without Hill.  So, maybe there's a compromise by stating a tier-1 WR is more important to a young QB (<3yrs) than a veteran one? Regardless, I do concur that an AP receiver will help your QB; still, said players won't turn a bottom passer into a top-tier one...

Matt,

As I said before, I like to be consistent.   So I look at QB rating, QBR and PFF

With both Tua and Hurts they have seen dramatic jumps this season

[kingm56]

Matt,

As I said before, I like to be consistent.   So I look at QB rating, QBR and PFF

With both Tua and Hurts they have seen dramatic jumps this season

I hear you; however, both were not bottom 10 passers to begin with. Plus, both have less than a combine 5 years starting in this league.  To that point, do you agree that good QBs show dramatic improvements between years 2 and 3, regardless of the acquisitions of a top tier WR? Isn't it plausible that Hurts, through gained experience, would show significant improvements? Also, just so I'm clear, you're implicitly implying that if the Giants acquired a T. Hill, DJ would become a top 5 passer? Why do you believe Tannehill and Mahomes haven't seen dips in production (using PFF, RTG and QB) without Hill and Brown?   In general, I DO agree with you; adding a difference-maker at WR matters.  I think we just disagree on how much it matters...

[AP44]

Mahomes was not off last night. His INT was a dropped ball. There were about 5-6 drops as well. He was the entire offense yesterday with no run game.

I am not sure Jones could have won that game last night. Mahomes was pretty special.

[Philosophers]

You said he "looked like any other QB including DJ"; I completely disagree.  He looked special, and executed plays literally no other QB in the league could, despite the constant pressure from just the front four. If you watched the game, it wasn't too hard to glean that Mahomes was the best player on the field, despite said pressure.  I believe the same was true when he made perfect throws from a horizontal position during the KC vs TB SB.

Matt - Here's exactly what I said:  "Mahommes looked like any other QB including DJ when under constant pressure.  Rattled, uncomfortable and missing throws because he may get hit at any time."

Any QB who throws the ball 68 times is going to compile a lot of yards.  68 or more pass attempts has only been done six times and 5 times since 1990.

Jon Kitna - 2001 - 35 for 68 for 411 yards
Jared Goff - 2019 - 45 for 68 for 517 yards
Patrick Mahommes - 2022 - 43 for 68 for 446 yards
Vinny Testaverde - 2000 - 36 for 69 for 481 yards
Drew Bledsoe - 1994 - 1994 - 45 for 70 for 426 yards

They all throw for lots of yards.

As usual, Andy Reid abandoned the run.  That's been his mantra since the Eagles.  Mahommes throws in under 2.8 seconds so he completes a lot.  What I noticed during the game was that because he was uncharacteristically under a lot of pressure, Mahommes was missing much more shorter throws than he typically does and he was really missing on intermediate and long throws more than he typically does and that was because of the pressure he was under.  He looked way more mortal than he typically does.