Kurt Warners tweet about DJ & the Giants.

[Rambo89]

Now let's do the consistent severe criticism of the offensive line and a player like Neal from the same people over and over.  Why is that ok but it's not ok when it's Daniel Jones?

[T200]

Claiming Jones "needs everything perfect" to be successful is severe criticism.

When PFF gives Jones a good grade for his gutsy performance on Sunday the reaction is:



Those are but two examples of severe criticism

I'm sorry, Rich. I don't see either of those responses as "severe criticism" of Jones. Unfortunately, Jones does not routinely elevate his play and bring his teammates with him. Even in clean pockets, he has issues.

PFF is not the end all be all. People here on this site routinely do not agree with or care about what PFF says. No matter how many data points they use, it is still someone else's opinion. Not taking that opinion seriously does not constitute "severe criticism" of Jones. Hell, I had an issue with Isiah Simmons being in the "goat" category a few games back when he was the leading tackler!

[MightyGiants]

I'm sorry, Rich. I don't see either of those responses as "severe criticism" of Jones. Unfortunately, Jones does not routinely elevate his play and bring his teammates with him. Even in clean pockets, he has issues.

PFF is not the end all be all. People here on this site routinely do not agree with or care about what PFF says. No matter how many data points they use, it is still someone else's opinion. Not taking that opinion seriously does not constitute "severe criticism" of Jones. Hell, I had an issue with Isiah Simmons being in the "goat" category a few games back when he was the leading tackler!

Severe is a matter of opinion, in your opinion (and the opinion of others) the criticism isn't severe, in my opinion (and the opinion of others) it is severe.

[T200]

Severe is a matter of opinion, in your opinion (and the opinion of others) the criticism isn't severe, in my opinion (and the opinion of others) it is severe.

So now we're back to opinions being passed off as fact? You've spoken out about this plenty.

[MightyGiants]

So now we're back to opinions being passed off as fact? You've spoken out about this plenty.

That is incorrect; if I say there is a beautiful woman, I am not passing that off as fact; I am giving my opinion of the woman's looks.  When I use the term "bash," I am giving my opinion of the severity of said criticism.  You seem determined to invent some sort of fault on my part when none exists (at least in this case).

[GMenRF]

If it's not top 5 there will be complaints about Jones not having one.  Bottom line the supporting cast will never be good enough for him unless they completely prop him up.

I get that there are those who argue that Jones needs 100% everything to be perfect from him to produce and albeit I have supported Jones - I agree with you he doesn't need everything to be perfect to produce because we expect franchise QBs to at the very least make up the difference for their team.

Look at DJ in his rookie year - somewhat competent offensive minded HC, mediocre offensive line (https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2019/09/03/new-york-giants-offensive-line-ranks-17th-latest-pff-rankings/) - mind you thats withouth Andrew Thomas, and his main weapons were Saquon, Sheppard, Tate, Slayton and Engram - I wouldn't necessarily call them world beaters.  He threw for 3,027 yards or 238 per game, 24 tds or 2 tds per game and 2 to 1 TD/INT ratio.  He showed promised.  His main gripe was decision making considering he was rookie and ball protection.

So he has produced even with not the best around him.

If we compare him to the others Burrow - trash oline, but 2 #1 WRs plus Boyd who could be number 1 with our current roster.  Herbert - had a trash oline as a rookie (https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2020-offensive-line-rankings) but he had Mike Williams, Keenan Allen and Ekeler. 

My point at one time DJ did not have even any of the 3 - oline, weapons, coaching because he was stuck with the ineptitude of Judge/Garrett.

And fast forward to this year where we all believe he was poised for a break out season until the offensive line put on an absolute $hit show.  Even with Lamar with all his athleticism and elusiveness would be destroyed with our offensive line.

At this point in his career - with DJ being damaged as he is due to the offensive line - not just physically but with his psyche also - you see it when he has had time, he was still rushing throws in the fear of being sacked thats why he was short on that throw to Wandale, its time for management to start looking for a long term replacement at QB.

Its unfortunate that a kid who showed a lot of promise his rookie year its nowhere near that given with what this front office and owners have done and have not done to support him and let him develop.  Not to mention half the fan base is trashing you every chance they get - case in point him being booed at Yankee Stadium and many others.  Im amazed that he hasn't thrown the organization, his team mates, his coaches and even the fan base (IE Evan Neal) under the bus.

[Rambo89]

Severe is a matter of opinion, in your opinion (and the opinion of others) the criticism isn't severe, in my opinion (and the opinion of others) it is severe.

So we agree it's all opinion based about how we perceive what it is and that there isn't a right or wrong here?

[T200]

That is incorrect; if I say there is a beautiful woman, I am not passing that off as fact; I am giving my opinion of the woman's looks.  When I use the term "bash," I am giving my opinion of the severity of said criticism.  You seem determined to invent some sort of fault on my part when none exists (at least in this case).

Rich,

Maybe I'm having difficulty expressing what it is I see as a major problem on this site.

If we are to value each other's opinions, then we can't relabel them to fit our views. When Rambo says "Jones needs to be propped up to be successful" and you say "Jones can't be successful without an NFL-caliber supporting cast", you're both saying the same thing. But you call it "bashing" or "severe criticism" when Rambo says it.

That's the fault I see on your part.

[Trench]

Claiming Jones "needs everything perfect" to be successful is severe criticism.

When PFF gives Jones a good grade for his gutsy performance on Sunday the reaction is:



Those are but two examples of severe criticism

That is because many people believe PFF is a farce. I know that doesn't sit well with some but we are allowed to have that opinion.

[Trench]

In fairness, you and @Rambo89 spend like 90% of your posts bashing Jones (directly or indirectly) or arguing with people who don't share your negative views of Jones.  For two people who claim that they believe he is just an "average QB" that seems rather odd.  If you guys honestly believe he Jones is just an average QB, why the constant need to put the man down, especially when he is playing under what is universally considered very difficult circumstances?

Because when anyone posts their opinion in a negative way, it is met with pushback. It is people's opinions. Why the need to push back?...why can't we all just let people have their opinion and leave it at that?..at the end of the day it is what it is.

[MightyGiants]

Rich,

Maybe I'm having difficulty expressing what it is I see as a major problem on this site.

If we are to value each other's opinions, then we can't relabel them to fit our views. When Rambo says "Jones needs to be propped up to be successful" and you say "Jones can't be successful without an NFL-caliber supporting cast", you're both saying the same thing. But you call it "bashing" or "severe criticism" when Rambo says it.

That's the fault I see on your part.

Tim,

Here is a prime example of the actual problem with our site (and it's not what you think).  I posted PFF grades as I have done for many years now.  Because Daniel Jones had a good grade from PFF, this is what he posted.

Think I am seeing why if you use PFF grades as the Bible and factual (when it's not) that you would come to the conclusion that Jones is usually great and it's all on the supporting cast.

Now is that being respectful?   

Now before you try to figure out a way to blame me for his post, keep in mind I posted the grades without posting my opinion on the grades.  Could you see how when someone reacts so violently to simple PFF grades being posted, they create an impression of "bashing"?

[T200]

Tim,

Here is a prime example of the actual problem with our site (and it's not what you think).  I posted PFF grades as I have done for many years now.  Because Daniel Jones had a good grade from PFF, this is what he posted.


Now is that being respectful?   

Now before you try to figure out a way to blame me for his post, keep in mind I posted the grades without posting my opinion on the grades.  Could you see how when someone reacts so violently to simple PFF grades being posted, they create an impression of "bashing"?

Rich,

You quoted me yet didn't address anything I said.

Personally, I don't care for PFF. I've said as much. I'm not too crazy about statistics in general because they can be presented to show whatever it is that needs to be shown.

But this isn't about PFF or people's response to their ratings.

https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?msg=916031

[Rambo89]

Tim,

Here is a prime example of the actual problem with our site (and it's not what you think).  I posted PFF grades as I have done for many years now.  Because Daniel Jones had a good grade from PFF, this is what he posted.


Now is that being respectful?   

Now before you try to figure out a way to blame me for his post, keep in mind I posted the grades without posting my opinion on the grades.  Could you see how when someone reacts so violently to simple PFF grades being posted, they create an impression of "bashing"?

I know this was directed at Tim but bringing up my post I thought I just clarify that when I said "you" in that thread I meant the general "you" not yourself personally.  If you go back that post did not include a quote from yourself it was a separate post.  If you took that as a shot at yourself I apologize as it wasn't the intention or implication of the post.

[T200]

Rich,

If we are to value each other's opinions, then we can't relabel them to fit our views. When Rambo says "Jones needs to be propped up to be successful" and you say "Jones can't be successful without an NFL-caliber supporting cast", you're both saying the same thing. But you call it "bashing" or "severe criticism" when Rambo says it.

This is the third and last time I will seek your response on this.

"If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge Tim's statement."

[MightyGiants]

Rich,

You quoted me yet didn't address anything I said.

Personally, I don't care for PFF. I've said as much. I'm not too crazy about statistics in general because they can be presented to show whatever it is that needs to be shown.

But this isn't about PFF or people's response to their ratings.

https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?msg=916031

If that is your idea of how people should be conducting themselves here on this forum, we have a bigger issue.  The use of strawman arguments is fundamentally disrespectful, as you are misrepresenting other people's opinions.

People here are entitled to their opinions.  However, @Trench oversimplified things.  The reality is that to be respectful, you need not to be overstating your own opinion, and you can't be attacking others (as @Rambo89 did) just because they post grades you don't want to agree with.  People need to be respectful by not trying to hijack threads so they can continue overstating their opinions.

There is also another point, I don't think you appreciate.  In all my decades on this planet, I never once heard someone say they wish they could hear more complaints.  So when you are criticizing the team or the players or other members of the organization we are all fans of, if you are respectful of your fellow fans you should be erring on the side of less when trying to avoid being guilty of overstating one's views.