Kurt Warners tweet about DJ & the Giants.

[DragonSoul]

Yep keep up the Jones needs everything else around him to be at an elite level because he isn't

Again you showing ur truth.

First I never said DJ at the moment or near future will be elite. Time will tell what he is. So nice try.

Second I said he needs an average oline at least (where did you see me say elite?).

Third - it be nice if he had a #1 wr, but again that wasn't needed if our "speed" guys can get separation and hold on to the ball and/or not drop instantly. Not to mention worst rated wr core.

So if that is elite, not sure what you are reading or seeing. Again, keep it up.

[Rambo89]

Rich,

If we are to value each other's opinions, then we can't relabel them to fit our views. When Rambo says "Jones needs to be propped up to be successful" and you say "Jones can't be successful without an NFL-caliber supporting cast", you're both saying the same thing. But you call it "bashing" or "severe criticism" when Rambo says it.

This is the third and last time I will seek your response on this.

"If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge Tim's statement."

It's a similar story when topics relating to the offensive line come up.  We all pretty much agree that the line has been bad yet it gets taken that if you're being critical of Jones that means you're giving the offensive line a pass.  It's creating a straw man that doesn't exist while at the same time accusing others of doing the same thing.

[T200]

If that is your idea of how people should be conducting themselves here on this forum, we have a bigger issue.  The use of strawman arguments is fundamentally disrespectful, as you are misrepresenting other people's opinions.

People here are entitled to their opinions.  However, @Trench oversimplified things.  The reality is that to be respectful, you need not to be overstating your own opinion, and you can't be attacking others (as @Rambo89 did) just because they post grades you don't want to agree with.  People need to be respectful by not trying to hijack threads so they can continue overstating their opinions.

There is also another point, I don't think you appreciate.  In all my decades on this planet, I never once heard someone say they wish they could hear more complaints.  So when you are criticizing the team or the players or other members of the organization we are all fans of, if you are respectful of your fellow fans you should be erring on the side of less when trying to avoid being guilty of overstating one's views.

ARE YOU SERIOUS RIGHT NOW?!?!?!?!?

I have spent the last couple of hours being respectful and telling you that when you LABEL someone else's OPINIONS to fit your own views, it is intellectual dishonesty... something YOU yourself have introduced on this site to help everyone keep things on the up and up. Yet, when you do it and get called out on it, you completely move the goal posts to make it about PFF and Rambo's response to it???

Your site, your rules. You created this monster and continue to feed it.

[kingm56]

If PFF is good enough to assess our OL, then it should be good enough to assess the QB; concerning the latter, DJ has a below-average 65 rating.  If you disagree with DJ's rating, than you just invalidated PFF scoring system, which makes the PFF discussion pointless. Agreeing with PFFs assessment on DJs performance makes the discussion equally pointless.  If you find value in PFF, both the OL and QB are below-average, which further invalidates this entire discussion. If you don't believe PFF ratings are accurate, why bother posting PFF scores at all...

[MightyGiants]

Rich,

If we are to value each other's opinions, then we can't relabel them to fit our views. When Rambo says "Jones needs to be propped up to be successful" and you say "Jones can't be successful without an NFL-caliber supporting cast", you're both saying the same thing. But you call it "bashing" or "severe criticism" when Rambo says it.

This is the third and last time I will seek your response on this.

"If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge Tim's statement."

Tim,

I didn't "dodge" the statement.  I saw it as misrepresenting Rambo's opinion.  Rambo has said that Jones needs a top 5 offensive line and anything less will be considered "unfair" by people like me.  I am pretty sure (but I don't feel like going back to find it) that he has suggested that everything needs to be perfect for Jones in order for him to play well.


That is different from my suggestion that Jones can do well if just given NFL-caliber support (in other words adequate or average) in terms of protection, coaching/scheme, and receiving talent.  I also think you are needlessly limiting the critics to just Rambo.  Did you see our forum last week after Jones had a bad game?  I will accuse you of misrepresenting if you don't think what we saw last week on this forum wasn't "bashing". 

[T200]

Tim,

I didn't "dodge" the statement.  I saw it as misrepresenting Rambo's opinion.  Rambo has said that Jones needs a top 5 offensive line and anything less will be considered "unfair" by people like me.  I am pretty sure (but I don't feel like going back to find it) that he has suggested that everything needs to be perfect for Jones in order for him to play well.


That is different from my suggestion that Jones can do well if just given NFL-caliber support (in other words adequate or average) in terms of protection, coaching/scheme, and receiving talent.  I also think you are needlessly limiting the critics to just Rambo.  Did you see our forum last week after Jones had a bad game?  I will accuse you of misrepresenting if you don't think what we saw last week on this forum wasn't "bashing". 

There you go again. Twisting things to fit YOUR narrative.

Rambo is a big boy. He can speak for himself. If I mis-stated his position, he would have said so. Furthermore, he gave my post a LIKE. So, I feel confident that I did not misrepresent his opinion.

You can "accuse" me of whatever you like. I do my best to be very deliberate and careful with what I post to try and avoid any ambiguity.

[Trench]

If that is your idea of how people should be conducting themselves here on this forum, we have a bigger issue.  The use of strawman arguments is fundamentally disrespectful, as you are misrepresenting other people's opinions.

People here are entitled to their opinions.  However, @Trench oversimplified things.  The reality is that to be respectful, you need not to be overstating your own opinion, and you can't be attacking others (as @Rambo89 did) just because they post grades you don't want to agree with.  People need to be respectful by not trying to hijack threads so they can continue overstating their opinions.

There is also another point, I don't think you appreciate.  In all my decades on this planet, I never once heard someone say they wish they could hear more complaints.  So when you are criticizing the team or the players or other members of the organization we are all fans of, if you are respectful of your fellow fans you should be erring on the side of less when trying to avoid being guilty of overstating one's views.

"@Trench oversimplified things"

I don't understand what that means?..was that a good thing or a bad thing?

Nothing was meant to be disrespectful if it was taken that way. I tried to express this in a previous post. Sometimes things are read differently than how a post was intended.

[DragonSoul]

2 - There's a difference between posting content for the forum to digest and putting your own spin on it.

3 - Your response speaks directly to my point about intellectual dishonesty. Go back to the day after the Arizona win and you'll see plenty of squeaks about Jones.

4 - Not agreeing on a topic is not the same as twisting someone's words. Huge difference and too many people create strawmen to argue against and it causes threads to go off the rails because no one wants to be misinterpreted and go into defense mode.

5 - Yes, there is a block feature. Rich and the moderation team have routinely suggested and requested that members use it. Unfortunately, as a moderator, we don't have that luxury. Despite having that feature, it doesn't give members the go-ahead to be aggressive (passively or directly), twists words, or otherwise disrespect other members and then say, "If you don't like what I'm saying, block me."

Frustration is one thing. Arguing about who is more to blame or who deserves the most credit is childish at best. It screams "I need attention!" and it's a huge turn off. Very few people here agree to disagree. The same few people bring up Jones in every thread. The same few people deflect from Jones in every thread. Both sides are annoying as hell.

1- Some people post to get their point across from the pros (good/bad) others post for debate or just to inform.

2- Not sure if you are calling me intellectually dishonest. But I have praised and criticized DJ from the start. But vs Arizona I may have posted in only one thread about him (also spoke about st, etc), as u said there are many threads on him ad nauseam. So the people who supported him or neutral posted. Many who are "against" him not much of a squeak. I post in both pro/con and neutral, win/lose or draw. But I limit them because it is tedious and repetitive and much of it is out of context.

But just like the old forums with the Eli debate at a point I totally ignored them all. Even after Eli won people still either gave him a short leash or wanted him gone. Seems similar to what we got here. DJ hasn't won't a SB (and may never will) but you get the same feeling as when Eli & TC heads were called for to be fired.

[babywhales]

It's a similar story when topics relating to the offensive line come up.  We all pretty much agree that the line has been bad yet it gets taken that if you're being critical of Jones that means you're giving the offensive line a pass.  It's creating a straw man that doesn't exist while at the same time accusing others of doing the same thing.

The line is horrible, beyond horrible and the reality is Jones is not doing anything to buffer against that and at times he is actually making a bad line worse. He isn't identifying empty coverage, overhang players, hot reads, needed coverage adjustments, etc... 18 sacks in the past 2 games and at least 6 of them are directly associated with his inability to do his job presnap.  Add in the lack of accuracy and he simply leaves too many plays on the field as a result of his shortcomings.

If Jones doesn't demand 82 mill over 2 years, he gets more of a pass.  He demanded $'s based on future upside and he isn't delivering on the contract he wanted and got. It amplifies everything, including his critics.

The mess on the line and the impact on the rebuild and the impact on DJ's development is on Schoen, Dg before him and Reese before him. 

[T200]

1- Some people post to get their point across from the pros (good/bad) others post for debate or just to inform.

2- Not sure if you are calling me intellectually dishonest. But I have praised and criticized DJ from the start. But vs Arizona I may have posted in only one thread about him (also spoke about st, etc), as u said there are many threads on him ad nauseam. So the people who supported him or neutral posted. Many who are "against" him not much of a squeak. I post in both pro/con and neutral, win/lose or draw. But I limit them because it is tedious and repetitive and much of it is out of context.

But just like the old forums with the Eli debate at a point I totally ignored them all. Even after Eli won people still either gave him a short leash or wanted him gone. Seems similar to what we got here. DJ hasn't won't a SB (and may never will) but you get the same feeling as when Eli & TC heads were called for to be fired.

Posting viewpoints from pros, beat writers, analysts, or even other fans is a great thing. I appreciate different perspectives. I don't have to agree with them but I also don't rail against them. Personally, I wouldn't have had an issue with your post if it wasn't for the "Funny how the pros and announcers can see the issue, yet others are blinded by their own Bias." you led off with.

As far as the intellectual dishonesty goes, you stated that there wasn't as much as a squeak when Jones played well. I said there were plenty of squeaks after the Arizona win. In fact, a thread was LOCKED because the squeaks weren't loud enough.

[DragonSoul]

Yes, they post a lot about Jones and it's all repetitive. Nothing new.

But it does not equate to bashing. It's misrepresentation like this that fuels the back and forth.

The incessant repetition is more akin to dead horse beating.

Really? The whole world knows their opinions and saying it obviously or overtly is not bashing? You can criticize the player, the plays but when everything is the same or sounds the same at what point do you put a cork in it? At what point is that not bullying/bashing. Your analogy of beating a dead horse is perfect example of bashing. Beating dead horse implies what? And then saying (bashing) the same thing over and over. Seems like bashing to me. Yes there are people similar on the other side. Still same crap, different smell.

[Rambo89]

1- Some people post to get their point across from the pros (good/bad) others post for debate or just to inform.

2- Not sure if you are calling me intellectually dishonest. But I have praised and criticized DJ from the start. But vs Arizona I may have posted in only one thread about him (also spoke about st, etc), as u said there are many threads on him ad nauseam. So the people who supported him or neutral posted. Many who are "against" him not much of a squeak. I post in both pro/con and neutral, win/lose or draw. But I limit them because it is tedious and repetitive and much of it is out of context.

But just like the old forums with the Eli debate at a point I totally ignored them all. Even after Eli won people still either gave him a short leash or wanted him gone. Seems similar to what we got here. DJ hasn't won't a SB (and may never will) but you get the same feeling as when Eli & TC heads were called for to be fired.

Haven't seen any criticism from Jones from you but maybe I missed that because most of the time I see you either defending him or taking shots at those who are critical of him.

Really? The whole world knows their opinions and saying it obviously or overtly is not bashing? You can criticize the player, the plays but when everything is the same or sounds the same at what point do you put a cork in it? At what point is that not bullying/bashing. Your analogy of beating a dead horse is perfect example of bashing. Beating dead horse implies what? And then saying (bashing) the same thing over and over. Seems like bashing to me. Yes there are people similar on the other side. Still same crap, different smell.

Now apply this to all of the threads on the offensive line and commentary bashing them.

[MightyGiants]

There you go again. Twisting things to fit YOUR narrative.

Rambo is a big boy. He can speak for himself. If I mis-stated his position, he would have said so. Furthermore, he gave my post a LIKE. So, I feel confident that I did not misrepresent his opinion.

You can "accuse" me of whatever you like. I do my best to be very deliberate and careful with what I post to try and avoid any ambiguity.

Check this out

https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?msg=916067

[DragonSoul]

Posting viewpoints from pros, beat writers, analysts, or even other fans is a great thing. I appreciate different perspectives. I don't have to agree with them but I also don't rail against them. Personally, I wouldn't have had an issue with your post if it wasn't for the "Funny how the pros and announcers can see the issue, yet others are blinded by their own Bias." you led off with.

As far as the intellectual dishonesty goes, you stated that there wasn't as much as a squeak when Jones played well. I said there were plenty of squeaks after the Arizona win. In fact, a thread was LOCKED because the squeaks weren't loud enough.

1- I used it as a way to jest to show the other side can do the same thing. But in all honesty as you say, they have to look at all things and decide for themselves. I have no issues with anyone posting things pro/con as it may open my eyes or give me another point of view, maybe it changes my mind, maybe it doesn't. But once u start beating a dead horse you made your point then I ignore/move on.

2- For the Ari posted I watched a bit then left. I posted in there, I saw many people who supported him post in there and some who come down on him, not post or backhanded compliments as per usual. So I stopped going in there. But if the haters or "realists" never said anything there, or backhanded compliments. I believe that supports my statement.

3- And we can agree to disagree. I actually do that quite often & move on. Did it several times in her already.

[T200]

Really? The whole world knows their opinions and saying it obviously or overtly is not bashing? You can criticize the player, the plays but when everything is the same or sounds the same at what point do you put a cork in it? At what point is that not bullying/bashing. Your analogy of beating a dead horse is perfect example of bashing. Beating dead horse implies what? And then saying (bashing) the same thing over and over. Seems like bashing to me. Yes there are people similar on the other side. Still same crap, different smell.

I don't know if you've read the entire thread but MightyGiants posted what he found on Google that constituted "bashing": it said "severe criticism." So now that I had that definition from him, my responses focused on the "bashing/severe criticism."

Now you're saying beating a dead horse is also bashing. Fine.

There is a difference. The bashing/severe criticism of Jones is not what it's made out to be. The constant, incessant criticism in every single thread does not constitute bashing, from where I sit.