1) Jones with more weapons and a second year in a good system will take a step up- The O-line regressed, the "weapons" were not as good as advertized, and with the exception of the Cards game, Jones has looked worse than he did the end of last season.
2) Waller is the true number-one receiving threat the Giants were missing- While Waller looked unstoppable in training camp, he has looked ordinary during the season. Unknow if he hamstring issue he is dealing with has impacted him.
3) The defensive additions (2 DTs and an ILB) will fix the run defense issues- The run defense looks worse than last year with the team collectively forgetting how to tackle
4) Neal would be better because now he is used to RT again- Neal has shown little to know improvement
5) Thibodeaux will step up in year two- KT if anything seems to have regressed
6) Bobby Okereke will solve the problem at ILB- BO has looked worse than the player who played for the Colts. He is very hesitant in his play
7) The players will be further along since many are in the second year of the Giants offensive and defensive systems- Instead, the Giants seemed to have regressed either due to lack of effort or over-confidence
8) The massive influx of speed will give the Giants a boost- Two of the fastest Giants (Hyatt and Simmons) have played very few snaps. Campbell may be fast on paper, but it hasn't shown on the field. Waller seems slower than he looked in camp.
I think a major problem was not playing the starters in preseason games and really preparing them. Instead we got to see backups. Come the Dallas game, the starters looked so bad.
All preseason we read about how good Waller is then when they practiced with the Lions, not so much.
Evan Neal is my biggest disappointment so far. Maybe he becomes sooid by end of season but as of now he looks like Ereck Flowers.
I thought KT might be soft and had hoped others here would be right, but my observations are proving correct. He dances on plays. He plays with no power and explosiveness into players.
Their DL is playing like a bunch of kids. Run defense is awful.
Play calling adjustments in kight of problems is not good. Stop with all 3 yard checkdowns and roll out DJ to try to throw deep. Stop with all the same plays that are not working.
I think the title of the thread should be "what hasn't gone right YET this season."
Nothing is written in stone, especially level of performance (so far) by players mentioned specifically.
The good news is... when you start poorly there's plenty of room for improvement (it's EASIER to improve).
I can remember numerous playoff teams that started worse than the Giants this year.
Dallas and SF are very good teams when they're playing at full strength (as they did against the Giants).
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on September 25, 2023, 01:48:27 PMI think the title of the thread should be "what hasn't gone right YET this season."
Nothing is written in stone, especially level of performance (so far) by players mentioned specifically.
The good news is... when you start poorly there's plenty of room for improvement (it's EASIER to improve).
I can remember numerous playoff teams that started worse than the Giants this year.
Dallas SF are very good teams when they're playing at full strength (as they did against the Giants).
Bob
Bob,
I think many of the issues I listed are fixable (not so sure Evan Neal is "fixable"). That said, this team is running out of chances and time to right their ship if they intend to make the playoffs.
I agree, those are all concerns/issues/thoughts we have had. It may just come down to time with extra days off to get things righted.
It might just be time that is needed. New pieces to gel, etc... I start taking teams for who they are around week 4-6 w/in context. Especially with preseason reduced and barely any playing time for the vets. Add injuries. We are too thin in some places to potentially overcome the numbers we've had in key positions.
We did have a rough starting Schedule. I did expect a lot more vs. Dallas.
The team isn't developing the young drafted players.
I said it before the season and will say it again the FO didn't address the oline this past off season in case there wasn't any improvements. So far they haven't but it is only 3 games so there is still hope they can become good enough for stretches to allow the offense to attack down filed and open holes in the run game.
It's wild to see so many of the fans out here now agreeing about how bad Neal has been.
Quote from: RelaxTension on September 25, 2023, 02:10:11 PMThe team isn't developing the young drafted players.
I said it before the season and will say it again the FO didn't address the oline this past off season in case there wasn't any improvements. So far they haven't but it is only 3 games so there is still hope they can become good enough for stretches to allow the offense to attack down filed and open holes in the run game.
It's wild to see so many of the fans out here now agreeing about how bad Neal has been.
The Giants lost Nick Gates and Feliciano and only gained JMS. Considering the line played pretty poorly, they should have added more talent either via the draft or free agency. Hope (that players develop) is a poor substitute for a plan.
I'll take "everything" for 800, Alex.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 25, 2023, 01:50:09 PMBob,
I think many of the issues I listed are fixable (not so sure Evan Neal is "fixable"). That said, this team is running out of chances and time to right their ship if they intend to make the playoffs.
Rich: I'm worried about Neal too. IMO there's a mental aspect to the problem, but I don't like his feet at all.
Disagree that the Giants are running out of time after three of seventeen games. LOL
So far, they haven't lost a game the vast majority of people believed they would win (obviously).
By the way, the 49ers players should shut up. The game was a lot closer than the score, and I promise you the Giants CAN beat that team. It was their home opener and the refs IMO intentionally let a lot of border-line holding calls go early in the game that put the Giants behind the 8-ball. The missed calls all came at key times, but I won't use that as an excuse. The Giants dropped THREE INT's on the first drive of the game. Any one of those could have changed the tone, or at least got the Giants off to a decent start. Then Breida dropped a pass thrown right to him and ruined the Giants' first possession. I could go on with this, but instead I'll just say again that game was a lot closer than the final score.
Bob
With Neal, I remember watching a 335 pound player do a squat jump and land like 3 higher on some mats and thought that a ridiculous explosiveness for someone so big. I thought that would translate into lateral movement. It has not as he looks slow laterally. Also, he is getting bull rushed successfully by players 50 pounds lighter. That should not be happening. Is he just weak in core strength or is his technique to anchor down really bad? Either is not good. He has seemed very coachable and has taken to off-season coaching with Willie Anderson which shows maturity and dedication. I hope Neal evolves into a good player because right now, my misread of Neal has me questioning everything in my life. How could I be so wrong?
Quote from: Philosophers on September 25, 2023, 02:57:10 PMWith Neal, I remember watching a 335 pound player do a squat jump and land like 3 higher on some mats and thought that a ridiculous explosiveness for someone so big. I thought that would translate into lateral movement. It has not as he looks slow laterally. Also, he is getting bull rushed successfully by players 50 pounds lighter. That should not be happening. Is he just weak in core strength or is his technique to anchor down really bad? Either is not good. He has seemed very coachable and has taken to off-season coaching with Willie Anderson which shows maturity and dedication. I hope Neal evolves into a good player because right now, my misread of Neal has me questioning everything in my life. How could I be so wrong?
We all were and so was our GM. And if he didn't take him he would have been gone quickly after. Happens sometimes.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 25, 2023, 02:24:41 PMThe Giants lost Nick Gates and Feliciano and only gained JMS. Considering the line played pretty poorly, they should have added more talent either via the draft or free agency. Hope (that players develop) is a poor substitute for a plan.
The issue is those players have to be available and at a price we can afford. Anyone you're signing at that low price tag is unlikely to be a huge improvement. That's literally what Glowinski and Bredeson were. Realistically, they spent a 2nd round pick on a Center after spending the 7th overall pick on an OT last year. That's a solid amount of draft capital on the O-line. Not to mention they took two more guards last year.
We entered last offseason with questions regarding our QB and RB, a weak receiving corps, no quality linebackers and one good cornerback. Not to mention our best defensive player wanted an extension. Any short-term upgrades were going to have to come from either the draft or guys simply getting better. Sometimes, that is unfortunately the only answer.
Quote from: Philosophers on September 25, 2023, 02:57:10 PMWith Neal, I remember watching a 335 pound player do a squat jump and land like 3 higher on some mats and thought that a ridiculous explosiveness for someone so big. I thought that would translate into lateral movement. It has not as he looks slow laterally. Also, he is getting bull rushed successfully by players 50 pounds lighter. That should not be happening. Is he just weak in core strength or is his technique to anchor down really bad? Either is not good. He has seemed very coachable and has taken to off-season coaching with Willie Anderson which shows maturity and dedication. I hope Neal evolves into a good player because right now, my misread of Neal has me questioning everything in my life. How could I be so wrong?
and
@DaveBrown74 while Neal had those videos of athletic feats, perhaps it distracted from the huge red flag that Neal didn't do a single test at the Combine or his Pro Day
https://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?f=Evan&l=Neal&i=30894
https://www.tuscaloosanews.com/story/sports/college/football/2022/03/06/alabama-football-evan-neal-nfl-combine-workouts/6954785001/#:~:text=He%20left%20without%20participating%20in,gradual%20trend%20at%20the%20combine.
Quote from: jgrangers2 on September 25, 2023, 03:13:53 PMThe issue is those players have to be available and at a price we can afford. Anyone you're signing at that low price tag is unlikely to be a huge improvement. That's literally what Glowinski and Bredeson were. Realistically, they spent a 2nd round pick on a Center after spending the 7th overall pick on an OT last year. That's a solid amount of draft capital on the O-line. Not to mention they took two more guards last year.
We entered last offseason with questions regarding our QB and RB, a weak receiving corps, no quality linebackers and one good cornerback. Not to mention our best defensive player wanted an extension. Any short-term upgrades were going to have to come from either the draft or guys simply getting better. Sometimes, that is unfortunately the only answer.
So the plan for the weak reciver group was to keep two of the starters and sign a slot player.
The Slayton money should've gone to a vet guard and Campbell has currently played like a bad signing and will probably be nothing more then injury insurance for most of the season.
Not sure what they could've done to free up some cap to sign a vet RT and after watching EZ playing the LT spot they should've at least been tried him at RT during the off season.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 25, 2023, 03:14:25 PMand @DaveBrown74
while Neal had those videos of athletic feats, perhaps it distracted from the huge red flag that Neal didn't do a single test at the Combine or his Pro Day
https://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?f=Evan&l=Neal&i=30894
https://www.tuscaloosanews.com/story/sports/college/football/2022/03/06/alabama-football-evan-neal-nfl-combine-workouts/6954785001/#:~:text=He%20left%20without%20participating%20in,gradual%20trend%20at%20the%20combine.
Wonder if testing without an actual edge rusher would have unmasked the problems.
I agree with the post above by Bob that it is too early in the season to draw meaningful conclusions and I agree with Phil that the way the preseason played out resulted in the team not being ready for the season. And it wasn't just the Giants.
A team cannot patch together a group of individuals on the Ol who have not played together at all and expect success against a defense like the 49ers. Add in losing the top offensive playmaker and 4 days rest and on the road. And, this is coming from someone who saw the Cowboy game as very important. Let the season play out and we'll see.
As an aside, I disagree with those who blame Schoen for the state of the OL at least for now. We lost 2 journeymen and added a high potential draft choice. Ez missed lots of last year and McKethan all of last year. I'm one who would have been ok with a Remmers or Pugh type but that's not a big deal and we need to find out what we have in Neal. We have to be patient
Quote from: RelaxTension on September 25, 2023, 03:33:33 PMSo the plan for the weak reciver group was to keep two of the starters and sign a slot player.
The Slayton money should've gone to a vet guard and Campbell has currently played like a bad signing and will probably be nothing more then injury insurance for most of the season.
Not sure what they could've done to free up some cap to sign a vet RT and after watching EZ playing the LT spot they should've at least been tried him at RT during the off season.
My point is that solving all these issues was never going to happen in two years. They opted to spend on the receiving corps rather than the O-line, which you can argue is a mistake. But also, the plan for the receiving corps was for Waller to be the top guy and everyone else to be somewhat supplemental.
I think Schoen had a 2-3 year plan, but winning 9 games last year messed with it because suddenly they were drafting 25th and had an actual decision to make on either paying Jones or going with a stopgap QB.
Quote from: jgrangers2 on September 25, 2023, 04:56:55 PMMy point is that solving all these issues was never going to happen in two years. They opted to spend on the receiving corps rather than the O-line, which you can argue is a mistake. But also, the plan for the receiving corps was for Waller to be the top guy and everyone else to be somewhat supplemental.
I think Schoen had a 2-3 year plan, but winning 9 games last year messed with it because suddenly they were drafting 25th and had an actual decision to make on either paying Jones or going with a stopgap QB.
I would suggest the failure of Schoen's first draft class had more of an impact than the unexpected victories
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 25, 2023, 05:24:51 PMI would suggest the failure of Schoen's first draft class had more of an impact than the unexpected victories
Sure. Having two top 10 picks and neither of them looking good is obviously not great, but I think this offseason goes a lot differently if the team wins 4-5 games as opposed to 9.
This all starts and ends at the LOS.
OL & OL COACHING
DL & DL COACHING
SPECIALS & COACHING
ARE THE BIGGEST CULPRITS SO FAR THIS SEASON
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Outside of Dexter Lawrence's play I don't think I can point to a player on this roster that has played more than 2 quarters at a high level. Everything has gone wrong and they all need to up their games.
Quote from: Philosophers on September 25, 2023, 02:57:10 PMWith Neal, I remember watching a 335 pound player do a squat jump and land like 3 higher on some mats and thought that a ridiculous explosiveness for someone so big. I thought that would translate into lateral movement. It has not as he looks slow laterally. Also, he is getting bull rushed successfully by players 50 pounds lighter. That should not be happening. Is he just weak in core strength or is his technique to anchor down really bad? Either is not good. He has seemed very coachable and has taken to off-season coaching with Willie Anderson which shows maturity and dedication. I hope Neal evolves into a good player because right now, my misread of Neal has me questioning everything in my life. How could I be so wrong?
Phil: The issue for me relates directly to your observations. I was certain his feet were "better than" what I saw in these first three games. IMO no one loses his ability to "dance" (if he ever had any). That's why I say there is a mental element to his lack of success thus far in the NFL. He has GOT TO BE overthinking some of the changes the coaches have asked him to make. How much is mental and how much physical? Just don't know. Bob
Quote from: jgrangers2 on September 25, 2023, 04:56:55 PMMy point is that solving all these issues was never going to happen in two years. They opted to spend on the receiving corps rather than the O-line, which you can argue is a mistake. But also, the plan for the receiving corps was for Waller to be the top guy and everyone else to be somewhat supplemental.
I think Schoen had a 2-3 year plan, but winning 9 games last year messed with it because suddenly they were drafting 25th and had an actual decision to make on either paying Jones or going with a stopgap QB.
I just don't understand how especially after these past few years they haven't figured out the need for a functioning Oline because everything else won't matter. I'm not sure if Allen was able to overcome a bad oline and they thought they could get a way with it with Jones.
They decide to pay Jones a big contract where I again would expect them to want to protect that investment yet here we are will terrible oline play and a few more average WRs trying to make plays while under instant duress. .
Quote from: Bob In PA on September 26, 2023, 03:16:47 AMPhil: The issue for me relates directly to your observations. I was certain his feet were "better than" what I saw in these first three games. IMO no one loses his ability to "dance" (if he ever had any). That's why I say there is a mental element to his lack of success thus far in the NFL. He has GOT TO BE overthinking some of the changes the coaches have asked him to make. How much is mental and how much physical? Just don't know. Bob
Not sure about his foot speed but there was reports about how bad his balance was at the college level leaving him on the turf and that hasn't seemed to change.
Quote from: RelaxTension on September 26, 2023, 07:48:52 AMI just don't understand how especially after these past few years they haven't figured out the need for a functioning Oline because everything else won't matter. I'm not sure if Allen was able to overcome a bad oline and they thought they could get a way with it with Jones.
They decide to pay Jones a big contract where I again would expect them to want to protect that investment yet here we are will terrible oline play and a few more average WRs trying to make plays while under instant duress. .
They spent the 7th overall pick on a player that they penciled in at Right Tackle having used the 4th overall pick on a Left Tackle 2 years prior. If they didn't recognize the need for good offensive line play then I don't think they would have invested as much resources into it as they have. They have recognized the need for it they just haven't been able to get the ROI on the investments they've made into the Offensive line.
Quote from: RelaxTension on September 26, 2023, 07:48:52 AMI just don't understand how especially after these past few years they haven't figured out the need for a functioning Oline because everything else won't matter. I'm not sure if Allen was able to overcome a bad oline and they thought they could get a way with it with Jones.
They decide to pay Jones a big contract where I again would expect them to want to protect that investment yet here we are will terrible oline play and a few more average WRs trying to make plays while under instant duress. .
They've spent three top 90 picks on the O-line in the last 2 years. They got Glowinski and Bredeson last year. If they could literally just pick any player they want to be on their team, I'm sure they'd grab a couple of All-Pro guards but it doesn't work that way.
Quote from: jgrangers2 on September 26, 2023, 09:18:59 AMThey've spent three top 90 picks on the O-line in the last 2 years. They got Glowinski and Bredeson last year. If they could literally just pick any player they want to be on their team, I'm sure they'd grab a couple of All-Pro guards but it doesn't work that way.
Not asking for all pro players although for next season they will have the cap space to get one especially at Guard.
Fixing a bad oline line by drafting a Center and then leaving the rest with a hope and prayer with the ones that played so poor will improve enough doesn't make sense to me.
I get they had to see if Neal was going to improve but they also need a back up Tackle so I felt the investment was warrented.
Quote from: Rambo89 on September 26, 2023, 08:26:31 AMThey spent the 7th overall pick on a player that they penciled in at Right Tackle having used the 4th overall pick on a Left Tackle 2 years prior. If they didn't recognize the need for good offensive line play then I don't think they would have invested as much resources into it as they have. They have recognized the need for it they just haven't been able to get the ROI on the investments they've made into the Offensive line.
So your in the camp that they can't make bad draft choices picking that high and can run with garbage players as back up?
Just drafting a center and nothing else this off season is what they did which has proven to be a bad choice after 3 games. There is no option at this point but to have hope these players won't continue to be the worse in the league at their positions and EZ did look good enough at LT that maybe he can be that swing tackle back up or the starting RT if Neal contnues to play the same.
Quote from: RelaxTension on September 26, 2023, 09:29:42 AMSo your in the camp that they can't make bad draft choices picking that high and can run with garbage players as back up?
Just drafting a center and nothing else this off season is what they did which has proven to be a bad choice after 3 games. There is no option at this point but to have hope these players won't continue to be the worse in the league at their positions and EZ did look good enough at LT that maybe he can be that swing tackle back up or the starting RT if Neal contnues to play the same.
I'm in the camp that they haven't gotten the return in the offensive line play for all that they've invested into it. The issue isn't that they haven't tried to fix the offensive line or invested highly into it. There isn't a team that has invested two top 10 picks into their offensive line. Teams that have invested less have gotten better line play than the Giants.
Quote from: RelaxTension on September 26, 2023, 07:51:17 AMNot sure about his foot speed but there was reports about how bad his balance was at the college level leaving him on the turf and that hasn't seemed to change.
RT: Agree. I think there's a direct relationship between slow/bad footwork and overall balance.
If your don't move the feet fast/soon enough to get them under your center of gravity you're usually in trouble.
The very best OL's get out-maneuvered almost as much as bad OL's. IMO, the difference is that good OL's are quick to reset themselves to a "neutral" position (which often bears a strong resemblance to the position in which they began the play immedately after coming out of their set at the time the ball is snapped.
Bob
Quote from: Rambo89 on September 26, 2023, 09:32:55 AMI'm in the camp that they haven't gotten the return in the offensive line play for all that they've invested into it. The issue isn't that they haven't tried to fix the offensive line or invested highly into it. There isn't a team that has invested two top 10 picks into their offensive line. Teams that have invested less have gotten better line play than the Giants.
They had a real bad oline last season and their solution was to only draft a Center to fix it for this season.
Sucks that the Neal pick has been a bust so far but the player does have a great work habbit and maybe can turn it around but in my eyes you have to dismiss that investment at this time because he's been so bad.
I thought KT might be soft and had hoped others here would be right, but my observations are proving correct. He dances on plays. He plays with no power and explosiveness into players.
Phil, in Banks latest video with Papa he said KT has to play with violent hands. I would think it would be useful to get the OT off balance instead of allowing him to clutch and grab.