Instead ran for a 1st down.
Checkdown
Sack. Failed to read blizer pre-snap.
Clean pocket and rushed pass to check down for an incompletion instead of leading two open deep receivers..
Both drives demonstrate the false narrative that Receivers weren't getting open.
Third Drive- Saw Blitz coming behind WDR and failed to pass to Robinson or lead Slayton who he never saw on a crossing route. Fumble that led to a short-field TD for the Seahawks. Which btw was a reception given up by Banks who fell asleep on the play.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 04, 2023, 10:23:42 AMBoth drives demonstrate the false narrative that Receivers weren't getting open.
And demonstrate the same predictable reactions from the QB
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 04, 2023, 10:37:06 AMSaw Blitz coming behind WDR and failed to pass to Robinson or lead Slayton who he never saw on a crossing route. Fumble that led to a short-field TD for the Seahawks. Which btw was a reception given up by Banks who fell asleep on the play.
On this play Dan Orlovsky broke down that at the LOS Jones should have seen the Seattle formation and either audibled out of the play, adjusted the line or as you said dump it off quickly.
4th drive- Clean pocket but instead of throwing to an open Waller or Hyatt, he bailed the pocket and if he stayed, Slayton was also open downfield. Instead, he ran to the sidelines (he can't throw for xxxx on the run) and threw the pass away.
I've seen enough.
Thanks for the work on this, Ed. Interesting stuff.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on October 04, 2023, 10:56:57 AMThanks for the work on this, Ed. Interesting stuff.
I don't understand why Jones doesn't have a switch go off in his head to throw the ball. He hesitates and it kills the play for what could have been some nice completions. I'm sorry to say, that I actually think he's broken. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of confidence in Tyrod Taylor either.
Pat Shurmur had him pegged. Design one read plays. But even now the skinny on him is he bird dogs the Receiver. I actually think it would benefit him to sit a couple of games to gain some perspective. It worked out well for Josh Allen.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 04, 2023, 11:06:13 AMI don't understand why Jones doesn't have a switch go off in his head to throw the ball. He hesitates and it kills the play for what could have been some nice completions. I'm sorry to say, that I actually think he's broken. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of confidence in Tyrod Taylor either.
Pat Shurmur had him pegged. Design one read plays. But even now the skinny on him is he bird dogs the Receiver. I actually think it would benefit him to sit a couple of games to gain some perspective. It worked out well for Josh Allen.
It's a lack of instincts and awareness. It's why Daboll/Kafka simplified the offense last season to easy one read plays that didn't require him to adjust on the fly. The problem with that is after a season there is enough tape on the offense to figure out what Jones's one read is going to be and what he's going to do on any one play.
If we were talking about a first or second year QB I would agree that sitting him would be beneficial but this is a 5th year QB on his second contract. The only reason you would sit him is to see which issues the offense is having are a matter of him not picking up on things. Beyond that I don't believe it would make a difference. This is who he is. Only thing you can do is build a team around him to prop him up which now that you've paid him with his cap hit becomes that much more difficult.
https://twitter.com/digge546/status/1709561723764523226?s=61 (https://twitter.com/digge546/status/1709561723764523226?s=61)
Unless Jones does a 180 I think Daboll now knows the limit of what he has at QB. You could tell by the look of frustration(several times) on Daboll's face he requires/expects Jones to read open receivers and get them the ball. Jones just doesn't have the fearless element good to great QB's must have. Yes he can run and take a hit. His main job is to get the ball to open receivers. It's one thing to make the right read/throw and miss due to being rushed. It's a whole different thing not making the right read. As it stands now there will be a new QB under center next season.
The "nobody is ever open" theme is a suspect-at-best, if not downright false, narrative that gets put out there way more than it should, in my opinion. Time after time we have seen that excuse initially made for a less than ideal Jones performance, only to have all the film come out later in the week that completely debunks it. This has happened more times than I can remember, not just in this week's game.
Also, the fact that people snap-react and make this claim in the game thread in real time during the game, when they can't possibly know that with just the regular telecast unless they show it on the replay, pretty much proves that it's deliberately being made up at the time. Which in turn proves that there is an underlying agenda people have, and they are willing to make fictitious claims to support it.
Finally, the definition of "open" in the NFL is not only being wide open with nobody near you. I get the sense that some think that's the only definition of "open." That is, in fact, the definition of "wide open", not "open." NFL QBs throw at, and complete passes to, receivers who have one or two (or more) defenders on them all the time. It's not just a binary game of pitch-and-catch or bust. So I think this difference in definition of the word gets obscured a lot. Jones tends to hold the ball in situations where other QBs might take a shot. Naturally that leads to more sacks (or throwaways), and people call them coverage sacks. People can obviously think whatever they want, but the "nobody is ever open" narrative is grossly exaggerated at best in my opinion.
Quote from: files58 on October 04, 2023, 11:29:27 AMUnless Jones does a 180 I think Daboll now knows the limit of what he has at QB. You could tell by the look of frustration(several times) on Daboll's face he requires/expects Jones to read open receivers and get them the ball. Jones just doesn't have the fearless element good to great QB's must have. Yes he can run and take a hit. His main job is to get the ball to open receivers. It's one thing to make the right read/throw and miss due to being rushed. It's a whole different thing not making the right read. As it stands now there will be a new QB under center next season.
Daboll and Schoen knew what they had in him and they still stuck with him and gave him a $40 MM contract. If they knew this they should have tagged Jones and negotiated with Barkley. As it is they overpaid SB. I don't know if this team can win another game until the Bye week. They could be looking at a first pick in the draft and a QB controversy.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 04, 2023, 12:22:01 PMThe "nobody is ever open" theme is a suspect-at-best, if not downright false, narrative that gets put out there way more than it should, in my opinion. Time after time we have seen that excuse initially made for a less than ideal Jones performance, only to have all the film come out later in the week that completely debunks it. This has happened more times than I can remember, not just in this week's game.
Also, the fact that people snap-react and make this claim in the game thread in real time during the game, when they can't possibly know that with just the regular telecast unless they show it on the replay, pretty much proves that it's deliberately being made up at the time. Which in turn proves that there is an underlying agenda people have, and they are willing to make fictitious claims to support it.
Finally, the definition of "open" in the NFL is not only being wide open with nobody near you. I get the sense that some think that's the only definition of "open." That is, in fact, the definition of "wide open", not "open." NFL QBs throw at, and complete passes to, receivers who have one or two (or more) defenders on them all the time. It's not just a binary game of pitch-and-catch or bust. So I think this difference in definition of the word gets obscured a lot. Jones tends to hold the ball in situations where other QBs might take a shot. Naturally that leads to more sacks (or throwaways), and people call them coverage sacks. People can obviously think whatever they want, but the "nobody is ever open" narrative is grossly exaggerated at best in my opinion.
Bottom line as we see in the game tape there are receivers that are NFL open that are being missed. They aren't ACC open and the expectation can't be that players are open like that in the NFL.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 04, 2023, 12:23:04 PMDaboll and Schoen knew what they had in him and they still stuck with him and gave him a $40 MM contract. If they knew this they should have tagged Jones and negotiated with Barkley. As it is they overpaid SB. I don't know if this team can win another game until the Bye week. They could be looking at a first pick in the draft and a QB controversy.
QB controversy is here, regardless of who plays behind Jones. The questions about him will dominate the cycle until he plays well (and even then that might only briefly quell the noise). But above-average play seems a remote possibility given the state of the line and Jones's own present shortcomings. So I think this is what we'll be hearing a lot of in the coming weeks.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 04, 2023, 12:22:01 PMThe "nobody is ever open" theme is a suspect-at-best, if not downright false, narrative that gets put out there way more than it should, in my opinion. Time after time we have seen that excuse initially made for a less than ideal Jones performance, only to have all the film come out later in the week that completely debunks it. This has happened more times than I can remember, not just in this week's game.
Also, the fact that people snap-react and make this claim in the game thread in real time during the game, when they can't possibly know that with just the regular telecast unless they show it on the replay, pretty much proves that it's deliberately being made up at the time. Which in turn proves that there is an underlying agenda people have, and they are willing to make fictitious claims to support it.
Finally, the definition of "open" in the NFL is not only being wide open with nobody near you. I get the sense that some think that's the only definition of "open." That is, in fact, the definition of "wide open", not "open." NFL QBs throw at, and complete passes to, receivers who have one or two (or more) defenders on them all the time. It's not just a binary game of pitch-and-catch or bust. So I think this difference in definition of the word gets obscured a lot. Jones tends to hold the ball in situations where other QBs might take a shot. Naturally that leads to more sacks (or throwaways), and people call them coverage sacks. People can obviously think whatever they want, but the "nobody is ever open" narrative is grossly exaggerated at best in my opinion.
People that make those claims in a game thread are absolutely full of $hit. The only way to determine that is by watching the All-22, like I did here.
Slayton this season has 2.1 yards of separation in his receptions with 13.2 targeted air yards. Anything less than that and DJ isn't throwing to him.
Waller 2.8 Sep with 8 TAY.
Campbell 3.7 Sep with 3.8 TAY.
It's plain to see he goes to the check down who is wide open instead of anticipating or releasing to a target like Waller who will fight for the ball against smaller men. The problem there is that the Defenders are running to the ball on Campbell. He doesn't trust his arm strength when he sees them or he just ignores the majority of the field.
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/receiving#average-separation
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on October 04, 2023, 12:30:25 PMQB controversy is here, regardless of who plays behind Jones. The questions about him will dominate the cycle until he plays well (and even then that might only briefly quell the noise). But above-average play seems a remote possibility given the state of the line and Jones's own present shortcomings. So I think this is what we'll be hearing a lot of in the coming weeks.
Maybe in the next weeks but except for this forum, nobody was looking at Jones as part of the problem. Not the fans on Twitter, not the Beat Writers, and not the Pod Casters. They all supported Jones and blamed the O-Line and Receivers. We even highlighted the play calling and preparation and nobody else did.
Even now, I see more press about the O-Line after this game.