The narrative that seems to have been confirmed by the Giants is that DJ saw his spine specialist before the game and was cleared for contact. The Giants couldn't activate him for the game because they designated him "out" Friday.
Now I can understand the reluctance to play DJ on Sunday. The Jets defense is fierce, and it was supposed to be rainy, and DJ hadn't practiced with the offense for three weeks (he was taking scout team snaps when he was cleared to practice with no contact).
Still, when Tyrod got hurt (which came as a surprise to no one), DJ, without practice with the offense, would have been a superior option to DeVito, whom the coaches didn't trust to pass the ball. Had DJ come in for Taylor, the odds of winning the game would have been substantially higher.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 31, 2023, 08:34:03 AMThe narrative that seems to have been confirmed by the Giants is that DJ saw his spine specialist before the game and was cleared for contact. The Giants couldn't activate him for the game because they designated him "out" Friday.
Now I can understand the reluctance to play DJ on Sunday. The Jets defense is fierce, and it was supposed to be rainy, and DJ hadn't practiced with the offense for three weeks (he was taking scout team snaps when he was cleared to practice with no contact).
Still, when Tyrod got hurt (which came as a surprise to no one), DJ, without practice with the offense, would have been a superior option to DeVito, whom the coaches didn't trust to pass the ball. Had DJ come in for Taylor, the odds of winning the game would have been substantially higher.
to answer the original question, no i dont think so. this season isnt going anywhere. that game didnt exactly inspire me to think that hey if we win we can do something here. it was one of the worst games ive ever seen. so does it give us a better chance of winning? of course. did it cost us the season? i dont believe so.
Quote from: B1GBLUE on October 31, 2023, 08:36:50 AMto answer the original question, no i dont think so. this season isnt going anywhere. that game didnt exactly inspire me to think that hey if we win we can do something here. it was one of the worst games ive ever seen. so does it give us a better chance of winning? of course. did it cost us the season? i dont believe so.
Admittedly sneaking into the playoffs seemed like the ceiling at this point. I am somewhat torn as a fan. On the one hand, if the Giants need to do some major restocking being out of it before Halloween may prove to be the best outcome. On the other hand, I prefer and enjoy seasons where the Giants are playing meaningful games in December or, better yet, January.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 31, 2023, 08:34:03 AMThe narrative that seems to have been confirmed by the Giants is that DJ saw his spine specialist before the game and was cleared for contact. The Giants couldn't activate him for the game because they designated him "out" Friday.
Now I can understand the reluctance to play DJ on Sunday. The Jets defense is fierce, and it was supposed to be rainy, and DJ hadn't practiced with the offense for three weeks (he was taking scout team snaps when he was cleared to practice with no contact).
Still, when Tyrod got hurt (which came as a surprise to no one), DJ, without practice with the offense, would have been a superior option to DeVito, whom the coaches didn't trust to pass the ball. Had DJ come in for Taylor, the odds of winning the game would have been substantially higher.
Rich: That's precisely what I speculated about yesterday and at least a majority of members disagreed.
Even if I'm right, some members IMO believe there's more to it. I don't agree, but they make good points.
My analysis: the Giants paid Jones a lot of money and generally speaking were out-of-contention BEFORE losing to the Jets, so they believed they would/should be extra careful and give him one more week. The move (or lack thereof) should have paid off, but the Giants snatched defeat from the jaws of victory... and here we are.
Bob
PS. There IS in my opinion good news. Now all but completely out of contention, Daboll should un-leash Jones and tell him to adjust his risk tolerance to show us everything (if anything) he has been shackled (or afraid) to attempt previously.
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 31, 2023, 08:41:12 AMRich: That's precisely what I speculated about yesterday and at least a majority of members disagreed.
Even if I'm right, some members IMO believe there's more to it. I don't agree, but they make good points.
My analysis: the Giants paid Jones a lot of money and generally speaking were out-of-contention BEFORE losing to the Jets, so they believed they would/should be extra careful and give him one more week. The move (or lack thereof) should have paid off, but the Giants snatched defeat from the jaws of victory... and here we are.
Bob
PS. There IS in my opinion good news. Now all but completely out of contention, Daboll should un-leash Jones and tell him to adjust is risk tolerance to show us everything (if anything) he has been shackled (or afraid) to attempt previously.
Bob,
I think the oddest part of all of this is that for the Commanders' game, DJ was listed as questionable. I am really curious as to why the downgrade to "out".
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 31, 2023, 08:46:26 AMBob,
I think the oddest part of all of this is that for the Commanders' game, DJ was listed as questionable. I am really curious as to why the downgrade to "out".
A potential solution to this mystery may have just occurred to me.
As I noted yesterday, DeVito probably didn't get any (or certainly not many) reps during practice last week because Taylor needed all he could get and Jones was lingering around with a "no contact" label but permitted to participate.
Designating Jones "out" gave DeVito all of Jones' reps. It's not far-fetched although it's a super-wild guess.
Bob
Daboli, as well as most of the other coaches constantly play games with the "injury" designation. It's their way of making the opposing coaches wonder if said play might actually improve and play.
Coaches constantly trying to outsmart the opposition. they should spend that time working with what they got healthy.
Oh where are you Andrew Thomas ?? And never forget there was a chance Barkly may play against San Francisco, 3 days after his initial injury.
I guess we forgot how 'well' DJ was playing before the injury. To answer the question, no, this had nothing to do with how the seasons trajectory...
Quote from: kingm56 on October 31, 2023, 02:23:15 PMI guess we forgot how 'well' DJ was playing before the injury. To answer the question, no, this had nothing to do with how the seasons trajectory...
So you claim that DJ is no better than DeVito?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 31, 2023, 02:28:05 PMSo you claim that DJ is no better than DeVito?
Better than Devito...but not really good enough to win consistently with. At least not against any decent team.
Quote from: Gmo11 on October 31, 2023, 02:31:22 PMBetter than Devito...but not really good enough to win consistently with. At least not against any decent team.
Is that even in doubt any more? The giants were 1-4 with DJ this season and 22-36-1 overall.
Quote from: kingm56 on October 31, 2023, 02:42:42 PMIs that even in doubt any more? The giants were 1-4 with DJ this season and 22-36-1 overall.
How do you explain a 9-7-1 and a 1-1 playoff record last year?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 31, 2023, 03:17:17 PMHow do you explain a 9-7-1 and a 1-1 playoff record last year?
9-7-1 isn't bad until you add that they were 6-1 at one point. You cannot discount a playoff victory but the Eagles humbled that very quickly. In fact until proven otherwise there's a great distance between the Giants and the Eagles and Cowboys right now.
Quote from: Messiah717 on October 31, 2023, 04:47:06 PM9-7-1 isn't bad until you ad that they were 6-1 at one point. You cannot discount a playoff victory but the Eagles humbled that very quickly. In fact until proven otherwise there's a great distance between the Giants and the Eagles and Cowboys right now.
Great perspective! If I can add to it....every year teams with average QBs sneak into the playoffs, only to blown up by teams with elite passers. Last year, the Giants, Cardinals, New England and Pitts made it to the playoffs with average QBs, and were subsequently blown-out by Phil (Hurts), Rams (Stafford), Buffalo (Allen) and KC (Mahomes). This literally happens every year as a byproduct of NFL expanding the playoffs to 14 teams (44% of the aggregate). To use one season out of five, when you barely made the playoffs, and were blown out, as evidence that you can win with your current QB is perplexing. The SS Jones is sinking, it's time to abandon ship.
I certainly agree DJ would be a far superior option than Tommy as a QB. Clearly the "out" designation reduced their options when TT went down.
The irony is while it may have sunk the season, if it was not at that point, it may have saved DJ's career or at a minimum his career with the Giants, if that is even still possible.
DJ has not played well and has been outperformed by a backup who makes 1/8th the $'s what DJ makes. Not throwing DJ to the wolves at the last minute in the Jets game and giving him the benefit of a week of game prep will give him the highest probability for success in the Raiders Game for a player who desperately needs a quality showing.
A double edge sword in some ways
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 31, 2023, 08:34:03 AMThe narrative that seems to have been confirmed by the Giants is that DJ saw his spine specialist before the game and was cleared for contact. The Giants couldn't activate him for the game because they designated him "out" Friday.
Now I can understand the reluctance to play DJ on Sunday. The Jets defense is fierce, and it was supposed to be rainy, and DJ hadn't practiced with the offense for three weeks (he was taking scout team snaps when he was cleared to practice with no contact).
Still, when Tyrod got hurt (which came as a surprise to no one), DJ, without practice with the offense, would have been a superior option to DeVito, whom the coaches didn't trust to pass the ball. Had DJ come in for Taylor, the odds of winning the game would have been substantially higher.
I don't have a problem with not using Jones against the Jets pass rush adding on the weather issues. My big problem is why do you have DeVito as your backup to an oft injured QB and they are afraid to let him throw the ball at all. How is a QB on the field if there's no plan to throw? Second, if they have the QB who they won't let throw, why not use the wildcat exclusively and at least get an extra blocker on there?
My other point regarding this mess here is the roster construction from the start of the season. You have an OL that at best would not be an asset even without injuries. How do you keep just 1 TE who can block? And, when they cut Cager who does not block, how do they not replace him with a TE who can help an inept OL with blocking? For years, with a pathetic OL, they bring in TEs who cannot help protect the QB until Bellinger. Do you think another TE who can block like him would have helped more than lots of guys on the roster? And, when the OL gets decimated by injuries, isn't the need for blocking greater but they double down in the wrong direction.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 31, 2023, 03:17:17 PMHow do you explain a 9-7-1 and a 1-1 playoff record last year?
How many more coaches/coordinators need to be fired? Jones is a coach killer.
As for the record from last year: they played the AFC South and the NFC North. Both of those divisions were dumpster fires (outside of the Lions and Vikings).
When is Jones going to win division games (aside from Washington)?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 31, 2023, 08:34:03 AMThe narrative that seems to have been confirmed by the Giants is that DJ saw his spine specialist before the game and was cleared for contact. The Giants couldn't activate him for the game because they designated him "out" Friday.
Now I can understand the reluctance to play DJ on Sunday. The Jets defense is fierce, and it was supposed to be rainy, and DJ hadn't practiced with the offense for three weeks (he was taking scout team snaps when he was cleared to practice with no contact).
Still, when Tyrod got hurt (which came as a surprise to no one), DJ, without practice with the offense, would have been a superior option to DeVito, whom the coaches didn't trust to pass the ball. Had DJ come in for Taylor, the odds of winning the game would have been substantially higher.
This all boils down to the question, why the need to declare him out on Friday when they had the option to have him backup TT in case of injury if he was cleared for contact over the weekend?
I agree Rich, they either weren't thinking or one of the following reasons prevailed.
Afraid of reinjury
Afraid of criticism for not starting him.
Afraid he would play badly if they felt compelled to start him.
Interested in seeing how TT would do against a top five Defense.
Go with the hot hand.
All of the above.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 01, 2023, 10:54:09 AMThis all boils down to the question, why the need to declare him out on Friday when they had the option to have him backup TT in case of injury if he was cleared for contact over the weekend?
I agree Rich, they either weren't thinking or one of the following reasons prevailed.
Afraid of reinjury
Afraid of criticism for not starting him.
Afraid he would play badly if they felt compelled to start him.
Interested in seeing how TT would do against a top five Defense.
Go with the hot hand.
All of the above.
Ed: Is this explanation possible: By declaring him out Friday morning they were able to give his Friday practice reps to DeVito. Notwithstanding your list above, this is the only football reason I can think of. DJ was practicing (taking up reps) even though he was still barred from contact, so DeVito otherwise probably got few if any reps earlier in the week. Why should he (a rhetorical question). Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 01, 2023, 11:14:34 AMEd: Is this explanation possible: By declaring him out Friday morning they were able to give his Friday practice reps to DeVito. Notwithstanding your list above, this is the only football reason I can think of. DJ was practicing (taking up reps) even though he was still barred from contact, so DeVito otherwise probably got few if any reps earlier in the week. Why should he (a rhetorical question). Bob
So Tommy was the backup and didn't get any reps until Friday? Then that makes
sense.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 01, 2023, 11:30:58 AMSo Tommy was the backup and didn't get any reps until Friday? Then that makes
sense.
Ed: I don't think so. I'm suggesting Jones was hoped to be the backup until a decision was made Friday morning to list him as "out" so DeVito could then get all of Jones' reps on Friday. On Saturday I'll bet Daboll was kicking himself, but remember... they won that game until he (and some players) threw it away. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 01, 2023, 12:19:07 PMEd: I don't think so. I'm suggesting Jones was hoped to be the backup until a decision was made Friday morning to list him as "out" so DeVito could then get all of Jones' reps on Friday. On Saturday I'll bet Daboll was kicking himself, but remember... they won that game until he (and some players) threw it away. Bob
Well, they actually didn't "throw it" away.
Bob, I think if he was cleared he would be starting. They would never have him as TT's backup. Practice or not.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 01, 2023, 12:37:01 PMWell, they actually didn't "throw it" away.
Bob, I think if he was cleared he would be starting. They would never have him as TT's backup. Practice or not.
Ed: I thought about that aspect. Assuming my other thing was correct and they put Jones "out" in order to avoid snubbing him at practice Friday, maybe DeVito was so bad at Friday practice that they figured if they had to put him in they couldn't trust him with anything downfield, then, to make matters worse the weather erased any chance they might allow him to let it fly. Also, Saquon was winning the game so no reason to not continue that approach (until they choked at the end and trusted Gano instead)!!! Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 31, 2023, 08:40:38 AMAdmittedly sneaking into the playoffs seemed like the ceiling at this point. I am somewhat torn as a fan. On the one hand, if the Giants need to do some major restocking being out of it before Halloween may prove to be the best outcome. On the other hand, I prefer and enjoy seasons where the Giants are playing meaningful games in December or, better yet, January.
Its a tough existence for us lol
Quote from: Hadron on November 01, 2023, 10:20:49 AMHow many more coaches/coordinators need to be fired? Jones is a coach killer.
As for the record from last year: they played the AFC South and the NFC North. Both of those divisions were dumpster fires (outside of the Lions and Vikings).
When is Jones going to win division games (aside from Washington)?
a coach killer? have ANY of his HC's or OC's gotten another job? had any success? i havent heard anything about pat shurmur. i havent heard anything about joe judge other than going to NE who is now terrible. those coaches did such a poor job coaching the talent around jones. very few qb's have any success in the same situation he has been in. he's not very good, but coach killer is a ridiculous thing to say.
Quote from: B1GBLUE on November 03, 2023, 04:40:50 PMa coach killer? have ANY of his HC's or OC's gotten another job? had any success?
Isn't that the exact point he's making?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 31, 2023, 08:34:03 AMThe narrative that seems to have been confirmed by the Giants is that DJ saw his spine specialist before the game and was cleared for contact. The Giants couldn't activate him for the game because they designated him "out" Friday.
Now I can understand the reluctance to play DJ on Sunday. The Jets defense is fierce, and it was supposed to be rainy, and DJ hadn't practiced with the offense for three weeks (he was taking scout team snaps when he was cleared to practice with no contact).
Still, when Tyrod got hurt (which came as a surprise to no one), DJ, without practice with the offense, would have been a superior option to DeVito, whom the coaches didn't trust to pass the ball. Had DJ come in for Taylor, the odds of winning the game would have been substantially higher.
I'd save you the trouble. The blunder of this staff was not going for it on 4th down. You make it its game over. You don't that's another 10 yards or so that the Jets had to drive to kick a game tying field goal.
Not to letting Gano play who apparently was injured and is now on IR. For all the right calls this staff has done last year, they have undone this year on epic proportions.
Don't even get me started on the blunder before halftime on the Bills game greatly affected the outcome of that game.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 03, 2023, 06:43:47 PMIsn't that the exact point he's making?
I would argue that Shurmur was the one that really gotten the best of DJ in terms of production. Multiple 4 touchdown games with no real receiving threat. Shurmur didn't get to have another chance with Jones.
Shurmur was fired not becuase of Jones but how he lost the locker room.
This proves how inept really the owners and management. If Shurmur had lost the locker room and was dead man walking why draft a QB that is tailor fit for a coach's scheme when your going to fire him.
Quote from: B1GBLUE on November 03, 2023, 04:40:50 PMa coach killer? have ANY of his HC's or OC's gotten another job? had any success? i havent heard anything about pat shurmur. i havent heard anything about joe judge other than going to NE who is now terrible. those coaches did such a poor job coaching the talent around jones. very few qb's have any success in the same situation he has been in. he's not very good, but coach killer is a ridiculous thing to say.
We can argue that was DJ really given a fair shot this year? Before his injury, he was on pace to be sacked over 100 times this year. For perspective that's on pace for 30+ more sacks than David Carr. Yes they got him weapons but without any protection it was more of a disservice to DJ than really being beneficial.
At this point we really have no option but to look for another QB. Even if DJ balls out the rest of the season, the physical beating he's had over the past 5 years and given with his neck injury, we need a his eventual replacement.
Hopefully a QB that will unite the whole fan base and not divide it like what happened to DJ.
No, this team was not going to be good. Jones playing means more losing which is better for our draft position. We don't need to eek out meaningless wins that cost us a franchise chasing player.
I wish we traded Barkley honestly. Let him play for a winner while he can still run and get some capital in return.
Quote from: GMenRF on November 03, 2023, 08:36:29 PMWe can argue that was DJ really given a fair shot this year? Before his injury, he was on pace to be sacked over 100 times this year. For perspective that's on pace for 30+ more sacks than David Carr. Yes they got him weapons but without any protection it was more of a disservice to DJ than really being beneficial.
At this point we really have no option but to look for another QB. Even if DJ balls out the rest of the season, the physical beating he's had over the past 5 years and given with his neck injury, we need a his eventual replacement.
Hopefully a QB that will unite the whole fan base and not divide it like what happened to DJ.
Yeah i really dont know how much longer his body is going to hold up.
Lots of good posts in this thread (no matter which "side" they take). Thanks, everyone. Bob
If Jones played in the Jets game, there is a good chance they would have lost by more. Just look at the Seattle game. His two turnovers handed Seattle 14 points in a game our defense played very well in. This may have happened against the Jets.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 04, 2023, 01:42:09 PMIf Jones played in the Jets game, there is a good chance they would have lost by more. Just look at the Seattle game. His two turnovers handed Seattle 14 points in a game our defense played very well in. This may have happened against the Jets.
There's no question that Taylor played better in his 2.5 stints as Giants starter than Jones did all year overall. Not even up for debate. And he did it with the exact same team around him against overall very tough defenses. I mean it's not disputable. The facts/data are what they are. And the explanation that a previously horrid line suddenly decided to play well when Taylor came in is not a credible one at all. Taylor simply managed the challenges better than Jones has been able to.
I don't know about the season. So many other problem areas. :hmm:
I do know our Staff checked out Dimes on the sideline and told him he's good to go.
Next play, his knee buckles, season over. Quite possibly his Giants career as well.
Ronnie Barns & Co. did their best once again :boooo:
Quote from: Jaime on November 06, 2023, 01:40:18 AMI don't know about the season. So many other problem areas. :hmm:
I do know our Staff checked out Dimes on the sideline and told him he's good to go.
Next play, his knee buckles, season over. Quite possibly his Giants career as well.
Ronnie Barns & Co. did their best once again :boooo:
Jaime: You're right, but it's up to the player/patient to tell the medical people everything. We don't know this, but it is possible Jones was simply being overly optimistic or unreasonable in his self-assessment. Or just plain lying to them. Bob