https://x.com/SpartanMike96/status/1724267791992402338?s=20
https://x.com/BobPapa_NFL/status/1724269874741190766?s=20
https://x.com/BobPapa_NFL/status/1724271888946561454?s=20
https://x.com/BobPapa_NFL/status/1724273855555137829?s=20
That kind of flies in the face of what a number of people believe here.
But what else would you expect out of a company guy?
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 14, 2023, 10:36:39 AMThat kind of flies in the face of what a number of people believe here.
But what else would you expect out of a company guy?
Ed,
Belief, by definition, is a position held without supporting evidence.
To your fair point about Bob being a company man. I have followed Bob for many years, from his time on NFL radio to his podcasts with Carl Banks and his Twitter account. Bob is not one of those company shill types. He rarely says anything controversial or makes strong statements.
So, from my perspective, there must be something about these beliefs being espoused by some fans that has motivated Bob strongly enough for him to speak out. I think that Bob means what he said in this instance.
I will also add that there are people with insider sources (like Mike Lombardi and Chris Bisignano). They both reported over the summer and at the start of the season that the building (not Mara) was high on Daniel Jones. Lombardi is close enough to Daboll that Daboll reached out to him for advice when Daboll was deciding between the Dolphins and the Giants. In a recent podcast, Mike Lombardi suggested that Daboll has been avoiding him because he doesn't want to hear the "truths" Lombardi would tell him like Jones isn't the answer or the team is not talented enough.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2023, 10:59:51 AMEd,
Belief, by definition, is a position held without supporting evidence.
To your fair point about Bob being a company man. I have followed Bob for many years, from his time on NFL radio to his podcasts with Carl Banks and his Twitter account. Bob is not one of those company shill types. He rarely says anything controversial or makes strong statements.
So, from my perspective, there must be something about these beliefs being espoused by some fans that has motivated Bob strongly enough for him to speak out. I think that Bob means what he said in this instance.
I will also add that there are people with insider sources (like Mike Lombardi and Chris Bisignano). They both reported over the summer and at the start of the season that the building (not Mara) was high on Daniel Jones. Lombardi is close enough to Daboll that Daboll reached out to him for advice when Daboll was deciding between the Dolphins and the Giants. In a recent podcast, Mike Lombardi suggested that Daboll has been avoiding him because he doesn't want to hear the "truths" Lombardi would tell him like Jones isn't the answer or the team is not talented enough.
But there is plenty of evidence that a) Mara is clearly fond of Jones, he's said so publicly, and b) he has said the Giants have done everything to screw the kid over.
If you're a first time head coach/GM and know the boss has strong feelings about a player because he has gone out of his way to make those feelings known publicly are you really going to go against him publicly by not extending him? Everyone who follows the Giants was stunned at the overly generous terms of Jones extension. Sure it was their call but to imply that there was no influence from Mara is absurd. I'm not even saying the interference was intentional but it was clearly there.
Quote from: madbadger on November 14, 2023, 11:24:11 AMBut there is plenty of evidence that a) Mara is clearly fond of Jones, he's said so publicly, and b) he has said the Giants have done everything to screw the kid over.
If you're a first time head coach/GM and know the boss has strong feelings about a player because he has gone out of his way to make those feelings known publicly are you really going to go against him publicly by not extending him? Everyone who follows the Giants was stunned at the overly generous terms of Jones extension. Sure it was their call but to imply that there was no influence from Mara is absurd. I'm not even saying the interference was intentional but it was clearly there.
Has Mara ever done anything but praise the Giants QBs? Has any owner ever said publicly said anything negative about their starting QB (with the possible exception of someone like Jerrah)?
Here's the thing, Mara has been around football long enough that sometimes you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. If you "did everything you can to screw up" a QB prospect you drafted, there will be a point where the damage done is simply not reversible (see David Carr) or could take years to reverse (see Geno Smith).
What are the questions or statements that Bob Papa is responding too???
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2023, 11:33:45 AMHas Mara ever done anything but praise the Giants QBs? Has any owner ever said publicly said anything negative about their starting QB (with the possible exception of someone like Jerrah)?
Here's the thing, Mara has been around football long enough that sometimes you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. If you "did everything you can to screw up" a QB prospect you drafted, there will be a point where the damage done is simply not reversible (see David Carr) or could take years to reverse (see Geno Smith).
I don't recall Mara ever praising guys like Dave Brown or Danny Kannell. It's one thing to praise a quarterback when he's done a good job and quite another when one has done a bad job and was entering his walk year.
Mara is clearly fond of Jones and has said things to that affect to the press. Does hearing that affect Schoen's decision?
Papa works for the Giants, but I would agree that he is not a rah rah guy. We listen to the postgame on the way home from every game. He praises them after a win, but he also rips them after losses.
We'll never know the extent of Mara's involvement unless someone like Judge comes out and talks about it, but the Maras have some juice in this league.
The problem is that the extension of Jones made sense, especially when you factor in front loading the contract. Unfortunately, it also can be seen as a compromise between what Schoen wanted (get rid of Jones) and what Mara wanted.
Mara sealed that perception the day he fired McAdoo in season and replaced him with Spags. When he claims the Offense is broken and Gilbride retires and Tom Coughlin doesn't shake his hand or look him in the eye at his final press conference, it highlights that conspiracy theories in Chat Rooms aren't created in a vacuum.
I love Bob Papa but he's coming to the rescue in an obvious way and disrespectful to a good portion of the fan base that doesn't have the wool pulled over their eyes.
MB makes a good point. I worked for an owner for 25 years and reported directly to him. He preached autonomy but he made his point in subtle ways and you better had to have compelling reasons to put your credibility on the line. Because if you're wrong too many times, your job is on the line.
I agree wholeheartedly with MadBadger. As long as the owner has opinions and expresses them openly, he is going to have some element of influence, whether intentional or not. Some GMs will resist it better than others. But that influence is going to be there. It's human nature.
Forget about players for a minute. What do you think Mara's response would be if Joe Schoen said in an internal high level staff meeting that he had decided that it was time to move on from Ronnie Barnes. Would Mara just say "ok, no problem, great, go ahead and do that, what is the next item of business?"
I get that there is a difference between Ronnie Barnes and a player. But it's still a NY Football Giants personnel decision that directly impacts what happens on the field. And it's a situation where emotions are involved. Unless one thinks that the GM has carte blanche to fire Ronnie Barnes tomorrow, it's kind of hard to buy the idea that any GM faces ZERO meddling from Mara - intentional or unintentional - on player decisions. That just doesn't add up. It may be totally unintentional, but it's definitely there given that Mara has clear opinions and airs them regularly.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 14, 2023, 12:10:20 PMMara sealed that perception the day he fired McAdoo in season and replaced him with Spags. When he claims the Offense is broken and Gilbride retires and Tom Coughlin doesn't shake his hand or look him in the eye at his final press conference, it highlights that conspiracy theories in Chat Rooms aren't created in a vacuum.
I love Bob Papa but he's coming to the rescue in an obvious way and disrespectful a good portion of the fan base that doesn't have the wool pulled over their eyes.
MB makes a good point. I worked for an owner for 25 years and reported directly to him. He preached autonomy but he made his point in subtle ways and you better had to have compelling reasons to put your credibility on the line. Because if you're wrong too many times, your job is on the line.
I would also say that if Mara felt comfortable expressing such support for Jones publicly, why would he be as and/or more restrained in interactions with Schoen? Let's think critically about this.
Quote from: madbadger on November 14, 2023, 12:04:24 PMI don't recall Mara ever praising guys like Dave Brown or Danny Kannell. It's one thing to praise a quarterback when he's done a good job and quite another when one has done a bad job and was entering his walk year.
I don't think John Mara was the owner when Dave Brown or Danny Kannell were the QB of the Giants.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 14, 2023, 12:10:20 PMMara sealed that perception the day he fired McAdoo in season and replaced him with Spags. When he claims the Offense is broken and Gilbride retires and Tom Coughlin doesn't shake his hand or look him in the eye at his final press conference, it highlights that conspiracy theories in Chat Rooms aren't created in a vacuum.
I love Bob Papa but he's coming to the rescue in an obvious way and disrespectful to a good portion of the fan base that doesn't have the wool pulled over their eyes.
MB makes a good point. I worked for an owner for 25 years and reported directly to him. He preached autonomy but he made his point in subtle ways and you better had to have compelling reasons to put your credibility on the line. Because if you're wrong too many times, your job is on the line.
The fact is that the fans have this belief because they are judging based on Mara's actions, not his words, some of which you've outlined above. And even his words haven't been particularly subtle. He doesn't have to intervene directly in a decision, all he has to do is create an atmosphere where it is clear what he wants the decision to be. He's surrounded by yes men and much as I like Papa and Banks, and the rest of the in-house crew, that is what they all are.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2023, 12:56:31 PMI don't think John Mara was the owner when Dave Brown or Danny Kannell were the QB of the Giants.
His father was and he was involved with the day to day operation of the franchise. If Wellington was smart enough to keep his mouth shut about Brown and Kannell that John should have been taking notes. What makes his comments particularly egregious is he grew up in the NFL. I expect guys like Jones and Snyder who bought their franchises to shoot from their hips, Mara on the other hand should have known better.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 14, 2023, 01:06:52 PMThe fact is that the fans have this belief because they are judging based on Mara's actions, not his words, some of which you've outlined above. And even his words haven't been particularly subtle. He doesn't have to intervene directly in a decision, all he has to do is create an atmosphere where it is clear what he wants the decision to be. He's surrounded by yes men and much as I like Papa and Banks, and the rest of the in-house crew, that is what they all are.
Mara also strikes me as someone who doesn't hide their body language and any executive at this level will be a keen reader of Body language. The GM makes a statement and he can pick up on how it was received in an instant. It can be as subtle as that. If I can do it, I know Schoen can do it. You don't survive swimming with sharks if you can't.
Quote from: madbadger on November 14, 2023, 01:14:35 PMHis father was and he was involved with the day to day operation of the franchise. If Wellington was smart enough to keep his mouth shut about Brown and Kannell that John should have been taking notes. What makes his comments particularly egregious is he grew up in the NFL. I expect guys like Jones and Snyder who bought their franchises and were outsiders Mara should have known better.
If memory serves, Wellington Mara rarely if ever spoke to the press. So I am not sure what conclusions can be drawn from not hearing anything positive said about any Giants QB from Wellington. Hell, I don't recall Wellington saying anything good about Phil Simms either.
C'mon man, Schoen may have final say, but Papa is acting like Mara has no input in the decisions that are made. He's clearly in the room, he clearly has influence on the final decisions.
The way the contract is structured really feels like Schoen gave Jones a contract that he could back away from. $40 mil AAVE is a lot unless you consider they spent a few more dollars to engineer an escape hatch.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 14, 2023, 12:10:20 PMMara sealed that perception the day he fired McAdoo in season and replaced him with Spags. When he claims the Offense is broken and Gilbride retires and Tom Coughlin doesn't shake his hand or look him in the eye at his final press conference, it highlights that conspiracy theories in Chat Rooms aren't created in a vacuum.
I love Bob Papa but he's coming to the rescue in an obvious way and disrespectful to a good portion of the fan base that doesn't have the wool pulled over their eyes.
MB makes a good point. I worked for an owner for 25 years and reported directly to him. He preached autonomy but he made his point in subtle ways and you better had to have compelling reasons to put your credibility on the line. Because if you're wrong too many times, your job is on the line.
Bob Papa has been with the Giants long enough to have a pretty good idea of what's going on. So there are two possibilities:
1) Bob Papa is disrespectful towards the fans who espouse conspiracy theories about John Mara that he knows are correct, because he was asked or wishes to curry favor.
OR
2) Bob Papa is angry at the fans espousing the conspiracy theories about Mara, because he knows they are untrue.
All I saw in that from Lombardi is that we could have had Mike McDaniels if Daboll went to Miami. I like McDaniels a lot as a coach.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2023, 01:28:14 PMBob Papa has been with the Giants long enough to have a pretty good idea of what's going on. So there are two possibilities:
1) Bob Papa is disrespectful towards the fans who espouse conspiracy theories about John Mara that he knows are correct, because he was asked or wishes to curry favor.
OR
2) Bob Papa is angry at the fans espousing the conspiracy theories about Mara, because he knows they are untrue.
Or John Papa simply has a view on precisely what happens behind closed doors with the team, which he firmly believes to be true despite knowing for sure (he may know a lot but he is not involved in high level team meetings and never has been), and he's essentially putting down anyone who has an alternative theory.
He's well within his rights to do that, and he may in fact be correct in his theory, but I don't think his claim of precisely what happens behind closed doors in Giants meetings and what the precise dynamics and internal politics are, down to all the subtleties and nuances, should be taken as gospel myself.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2023, 01:28:14 PMBob Papa has been with the Giants long enough to have a pretty good idea of what's going on. So there are two possibilities:
1) Bob Papa is disrespectful towards the fans who espouse conspiracy theories about John Mara that he knows are correct, because he was asked or wishes to curry favor.
OR
2) Bob Papa is angry at the fans espousing the conspiracy theories about Mara, because he knows they are untrue.
Papa wasn't in on any of those closed-door meetings either. Keeping him informed is not a priority. The word that gets passed down is what they want him to hear. Any discussion between Mara and Schoen is not shared with Papa. Now, I'd like to hear what Gettleman and Reese have to say about this as long as their version isn't in their best interests.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2023, 01:17:46 PMIf memory serves, Wellington Mara rarely if ever spoke to the press. So I am not sure what conclusions can be drawn from not hearing anything positive said about any Giants QB from Wellington. Hell, I don't recall Wellington saying anything good about Phil Simms either.
That's the point. Owners shouldn't be talking about individual players as it creates undue influence. IMHO an owner should state publicly that it's his job to be concerned with the big picture and that all individual personnel decisions are the sole domain of GM. You really think any GM is gonna recommend firing Ronnie Barnes after the love Mara showered on him in public? It ties your GM's hands.
Quote from: madbadger on November 14, 2023, 01:48:42 PMThat's the point. Owners shouldn't be talking about individual players as it creates undue influence. IMHO an owner should state publicly that he it's his job to be concerned with the big picture and that all individual personnel decisions are the sole domain of GM. You really think any GM is gonna recommend firing Ronnie Barnes after the love Mara showered on him in public? It ties your GM's hands.
Just out of curiosity, what is your best guess as to what happened with the 2017 Eli benching decision that ended his consecutive games streak? Do you think that was proposed to Mara and he gave it the OK? Or do you think McAdoo (and perhaps Reese) just proceeded with doing it and didn't even seek approval?
I ask, because given how emotional and loyal Mara seems to certain people, it is peculiar that he would have OK'd something like that when the team was 2-9. And if he didn't approve it and they just went ahead and did it without even asking him or telling him, then that kind of backs up the claim that coaches/GMs do whatever they think is right, even if Mara himself isn't a fan of the decision.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 14, 2023, 01:55:49 PMJust out of curiosity, what is your best guess as to what happened with the 2017 Eli benching decision that ended his consecutive games streak? Do you think that was proposed to Mara and he gave it the OK? Or do you think McAdoo (and perhaps Reese) just proceeded with doing it and didn't even seek approval?
I ask, because given how emotional and loyal Mara seems to certain people, it is peculiar that he would have OK'd something like that when the team was 2-9. And if he didn't approve it and they just went ahead and did it without even asking him or telling him, then that kind of backs up the claim that coaches/GMs do whatever they think is right, even if Mara himself isn't a fan of the decision.
McAdoo made a decision and I believe Reese went along with it. I find it hard to believe that Reese wouldn't run it by Mara. I think he did and Mara said he disagreed but stepped aside. When the fan base and Eli didn't have his finest moment, Mara placated the fan base. When he should have stood up for his HC. Geno had a decent first game which turned out to be his last.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 14, 2023, 01:55:49 PMJust out of curiosity, what is your best guess as to what happened with the 2017 Eli benching decision that ended his consecutive games streak? Do you think that was proposed to Mara and he gave it the OK? Or do you think McAdoo (and perhaps Reese) just proceeded with doing it and didn't even seek approval?
I ask, because given how emotional and loyal Mara seems to certain people, it is peculiar that he would have OK'd something like that when the team was 2-9. And if he didn't approve it and they just went ahead and did it without even asking him or telling him, then that kind of backs up the claim that coaches/GMs do whatever they think is right, even if Mara himself isn't a fan of the decision.
Unlike his feelings about Jones he never made his feelings about Eli's benching public. I'm sure it didn't sit right with him and it probably made him sick to his stomach but beyond that I don't want to speculate.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 14, 2023, 02:02:03 PMMcAdoo made a decision and I believe Reese went along with it. I find it hard to believe that Reese wouldn't run it by Mara. I think he did and Mara said he disagreed but stepped aside. When the fan base and Eli didn't have his finest moment, Mara placated the fan base. When he should have stood up for his HC. Geno had a decent first game which turned out to be his last.
Spot on. Mara listened to an outraged WFAN host and his pitchfork carrying followers and should have let McAdoo finish out the season with Geno or Webb. The Giants still lost the final 4 games with Spags and Eli.
We can discuss semantics until we're Giants Blue in the face, but the common denominator through the cavalcade of HC'S & GM'S since Tommy Coughlin was scapegoated in 2015 are the Maras.
We haven't been (forget winning) a respectable franchise since.
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Quote from: Ed Vette on November 14, 2023, 12:10:20 PM" ... Tom Coughlin doesn't shake his hand or look him in the eye at his final press conference ... "
That was the eye opener for me. Seeing Eli sobbing the way he was. You just knew...
Quote from: TDToomer on November 14, 2023, 03:34:41 PMSpot on. Mara listened to an outraged WFAN host and his pitchfork carrying followers and should have let McAdoo finish out the season with Geno or Webb. The Giants still lost the final 4 games with Spags and Eli.
Not entirely true. The Giants defeated the Redskins, 18-10, to close out the dreary season it was. Just a splattered disaster when it was all over with nobody wearing red, white and blue spared. The scary part was that even darker seasons lay ahead, and we don't even know if this season will reach new lows.
Y'all sure know how to depress a generally happy-go-lucky person, you know! Thank goodness for the Rangers and my AFL Premiers the Collingwood Magpies or I'd be jumping out the window after hitting POST.
Peace!
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 14, 2023, 12:14:48 PMI agree wholeheartedly with MadBadger. As long as the owner has opinions and expresses them openly, he is going to have some element of influence, whether intentional or not. Some GMs will resist it better than others. But that influence is going to be there. It's human nature.
Forget about players for a minute. What do you think Mara's response would be if Joe Schoen said in an internal high level staff meeting that he had decided that it was time to move on from Ronnie Barnes. Would Mara just say "ok, no problem, great, go ahead and do that, what is the next item of business?"
I get that there is a difference between Ronnie Barnes and a player. But it's still a NY Football Giants personnel decision that directly impacts what happens on the field. And it's a situation where emotions are involved. Unless one thinks that the GM has carte blanche to fire Ronnie Barnes tomorrow, it's kind of hard to buy the idea that any GM faces ZERO meddling from Mara - intentional or unintentional - on player decisions. That just doesn't add up. It may be totally unintentional, but it's definitely there given that Mara has clear opinions and airs them regularly.
Not to get into any debate, but to ask a serious question, take a look at the Giants Front Office Roster (https://www.giants.com/team/front-office-roster/) and tell me is Ronnie Barnes' organization is a subordinate to Football Operations, or does it report directly to the CEO / Board of Directors? You have the other Functional organizations which wouldn't report to Football Ops, such as Finance, Marketing, Business Intelligence, etc. Has the organizational chart ever been publicly delineated before?
Just curious with no other inference intended.
Thanks!
Bob Papa talks about his Twitter exchanges. It all started when Bob posted some praise for Eli's iron man career. It starts at 24:30 minute mark.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 16, 2023, 08:48:31 AMBob Papa talks about his Twitter exchanges. It all started when Bob posted some praise for Eli's iron man career. It starts at 24:30 minute mark.
First it reminded me of this scene in a movie and then Carl did his best Holden Caulfield.
Quote from: kartanoman on November 15, 2023, 08:46:51 PMNot entirely true. The Giants defeated the Redskins, 18-10, to close out the dreary season it was. Just a splattered disaster when it was all over with nobody wearing red, white and blue spared. The scary part was that even darker seasons lay ahead, and we don't even know if this season will reach new lows.
Y'all sure know how to depress a generally happy-go-lucky person, you know! Thank goodness for the Rangers and my AFL Premiers the Collingwood Magpies or I'd be jumping out the window after hitting POST.
Peace!
Forgot about winning the Chase Young Bowl. Hey at least you are enjoying your Hockey team. My Islanders blew another 2 goal lead last night and have won 1 game this entire month. With the Yankees underachieving this has been the most depressed I have been as a sports fan probably ever. I get almost no joy out of watching any of my teams play. :surrender: :(