One common statement made by many fans was that it was a mistake to pay Daniel Jones. Some at the time and many more after his poor performances this season and the injuries, one of which ended his season.
If they chose to move on...
Would they have traded up for Anthony Richardson? I don't think there was any way they could have gotten Young or Stroud. Would they have picked Levis or would they have signed an FA or started Tyrod Taylor and then put off drafting a QB.
How would any of those decisions have changed the course of this season and the future of the team?
All hypothetical and the answers subjective but did Schoen make the best decision at the time?
Given all the circumstances, it was a really tough situation to be in at the time. Like unbelievably so. My preference would have been to tag Jones and either trade Barkley (in 2022) before the deadline or just let him walk completely. The problem with that course of action, which I 100% admit, is that that's virtually impossible to do and to sell to fans when you just won your first playoff game in a decade. How do you sell that? How would Mara have felt about that? You're taking a team that just won a playoff game and had somewhat of a feel-good season for the first time in forever, and you're going to cap yourself by letting your star RB go and tagging Jones (ie taking the full cap hit)? It was the right move, and I bet Schoen knew that at the time, but it was next to impossible to actually do. So he did the second best thing he could have done, which was tag Barkley and give Jones as flexible a contract as he possibly could. And he did. We weren't drafting high enough to get a palatable QB, and trading away a ton of capital for a team with such poor depth for a wildcard like AR-15 would have been a tough sell. The free agent options (Carr, Mayfield, Jimmy G) were not palatable and seemed no better than Jones, which they aren't really. Not materially anyway. It was just a tough situation.
I think, to a man, we all agree the Giants overpaid for Jones. Jones and his agent played hardball and Schoen (be it from Mara) crumbled and paid the piper. Myself, I would have drawn a line in the sane, tell Jones and his agent this is what we are paying and if you don't want to play here, so be it. Does anyone really believe, that if Jones had walked another team would have paid him what the Giants did? I seriously doubt it.
At the time, I don't think Taylor was the option. We had just won a playoff game and why would we even think of starting a new season, a hopeful season, with a perennial backup? Was there even a Plan B if Jones had walked or were we always going to pay him?
Again, those of us who were never enamored with Jones would have taken that money we were going to pay him and spent it on the best possible QB out there. We might have had a shot at Jimmy G or whoever else was available.
Personally, Jones played hardball and we caved. I really do not believe he would have walked as he knew his best value was right here in NY, and even if he held out, he would have signed eventually to a Giant-favored contract.
Quote from: LennG on November 28, 2023, 09:13:53 PMI think, to a man, we all agree the Giants overpaid for Jones. Jones and his agent played hardball and Schoen (be it from Mara) crumbled and paid the piper. Myself, I would have drawn a line in the sane, tell Jones and his agent this is what we are paying and if you don't want to play here, so be it. Does anyone really believe, that if Jones had walked another team would have paid him what the Giants did? I seriously doubt it.
At the time, I don't think Taylor was the option. We had just won a playoff game and why would we even think of starting a new season, a hopeful season, with a perennial backup? Was there even a Plan B if Jones had walked or were we always going to pay him?
Again, those of us who were never enamored with Jones would have taken that money we were going to pay him and spent it on the best possible QB out there. We might have had a shot at Jimmy G or whoever else was available.
Personally, Jones played hardball and we caved. I really do not believe he would have walked as he knew his best value was right here in NY, and even if he held out, he would have signed eventually to a Giant-favored contract.
Good point that the fans would have understood an offer less than what they gave him. Where would you have drawn the line? A one year or multi year and how much?
If they didnt sign Jones and the season unfolded like it has, there would be a HUGE uproar about how Schoen needs to go. He would not have ANY support among the fanbase,
Quote from: coggs on November 28, 2023, 09:53:53 PMIf they didnt sign Jones and the season unfolded like it has, there would be a HUGE uproar about how Schoen needs to go. He would not have ANY support among the fanbase,
For sure.
The Giants are victims of last year's success and Daniel Jones the beneficiary. I have hardly been a Jones supporter (and called many worse things since his drafting), but even I was somewhat onboard with the contract simply because I didn't perceive a reasonable alternative and it was at worst a 2-year deal. Tagging Jones meant they lose Barkley, who is the actual focus of the offense. Even in the best estimate of 2023, Jones was unlikely to thrive without a strong effort from Barkley (just see the first half of the 2022 campaign against this season where Barkley was injured). So I think the path forward they went with--with the optics at play, Jones's fifth year option being declined, and the playoff success--an overpay of Jones was not unreasonable. It didn't work out. That happens. The Giants fortunately found out he's not the guy in spectacular fashion, which is going to afford them the opportunity to draft his replacement.
Quote from: coggs on November 28, 2023, 09:53:53 PMIf they didnt sign Jones and the season unfolded like it has, there would be a HUGE uproar about how Schoen needs to go. He would not have ANY support among the fanbase,
I think that's probably correct, although that would depend somewhat on what was going on with Jones this year with whatever other team. If he was playing similarly to the way he has played here overall, and his new team was losing, or he was just a backup somewhere that wasn't seeing the field, I'm not so sure fans would be unanimously aligned against Schoen.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 28, 2023, 07:54:46 PMOne common statement made by many fans was that it was a mistake to pay Daniel Jones. Some at the time and many more after his poor performances this season and the injuries, one of which ended his season.
If they chose to move on...
Would they have traded up for Anthony Richardson? I don't think there was any way they could have gotten Young or Stroud. Would they have picked Levis or would they have signed an FA or started Tyrod Taylor and then put off drafting a QB.
How would any of those decisions have changed the course of this season and the future of the team?
All hypothetical and the answers subjective but did Schoen make the best decision at the time?
This pre-suposess it was Schoen's decision. It might have been Mara's decision.
I think Schoen and Daboll were well aware of Jones inner struggles with progressions and slow decision making. Which would explain why Jones often throws the ball behind the receiver.
He's late to release the ball
one way or another Jones walks away with over 80 million dollars, good for him, he is a good guy and always tries his best....it was a tough decision
no one is to blame. In the end I think the tough early schedule was the gating factor.
Do you bring him back? Another big Jones decision coming up
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 28, 2023, 10:34:23 PMThe Giants are victims of last year's success and Daniel Jones the beneficiary. I have hardly been a Jones supporter (and called many worse things since his drafting), but even I was somewhat onboard with the contract simply because I didn't perceive a reasonable alternative and it was at worst a 2-year deal. Tagging Jones meant they lose Barkley, who is the actual focus of the offense. Even in the best estimate of 2023, Jones was unlikely to thrive without a strong effort from Barkley (just see the first half of the 2022 campaign against this season where Barkley was injured). So I think the path forward they went with--with the optics at play, Jones's fifth year option being declined, and the playoff success--an overpay of Jones was not unreasonable. It didn't work out. That happens. The Giants fortunately found out he's not the guy in spectacular fashion, which is going to afford them the opportunity to draft his replacement.
H-T: I think Giants were thinking along your lines and just got the worse of two possible outcomes, apparently.
I say "apparently" because it ain't over til it's over. You never know. Questions...
Is the OL gelling, or playing better because they're rallying behind DeVito?
Or is it because recent competition stinks by comparison to the five teams they faced to open the season?
Or are DeVito's occasional excellent plays giving them hope and inspiration?
Bob
Jones would have been tagged if they failed to reach a deal. I am pretty sure Schoen said that Jones would be back either with a new contract or under the tag.
Schoen was hamstrung with Jones from the day he agreed to be the GM.
- The previous 'guy' brought in Jones. Schoen had no ties or obligation to pick up the 5th-year option. He didn't, and for good reason. They had already seen the limited success Jones had up to that point, lack of supporting cast noted.
- Daboll and Kafka employed a low-risk passing game and leaned heavily on Saquon to see how Jones would fare. It wasn't spectacular but it showed that, at a minimum, Jones was a capable game manager. After a great showing in his first playoff game, Jones backed the Giants into a corner.
- Jones gets paid and starts the season playing worse than he ever has. And then the injuries.
Until Jones and Barkley are off this team, the Giants will continue to suffer the decisions made by Mara/Gettleman. Schoen needs to cut ties as soon as possible. And it sucks because Barkley and Jones are genuinely good guys who got drafted by the wrong guy.
Quote from: T200 on November 29, 2023, 09:43:25 AMSchoen was hamstrung with Jones from the day he agreed to be the GM.
- The previous 'guy' brought in Jones. Schoen had no ties or obligation to pick up the 5th-year option. He didn't, and for good reason. They had already seen the limited success Jones had up to that point, lack of supporting cast noted.
- Daboll and Kafka employed a low-risk passing game and leaned heavily on Saquon to see how Jones would fare. It wasn't spectacular but it showed that, at a minimum, Jones was a capable game manager. After a great showing in his first playoff game, Jones backed the Giants into a corner.
- Jones gets paid and starts the season playing worse than he ever has. And then the injuries.
Until Jones and Barkley are off this team, the Giants will continue to suffer the decisions made by Mara/Gettleman. Schoen needs to cut ties as soon as possible. And it sucks because Barkley and Jones are genuinely good guys who got drafted by the wrong guy.
Barkley might already have that Gold Jacket if he was drafted by the Eagles.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 29, 2023, 10:02:05 AMBarkley might already have that Gold Jacket if he was drafted by the Eagles.
OMG! Can you imagine him behind that line??? :o :o :o
He would easily have a couple of rushing titles.
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 29, 2023, 09:12:39 AMH-T: I think Giants were thinking along your lines and just got the worse of two possible outcomes, apparently.
I say "apparently" because it ain't over til it's over. You never know. Questions...
I actually think there was a third possibility which was more insidious: Jones continued in a relatively similar fashion, flashing potential at times, but mostly middling play with short-of-the-sticks-don't-turn-it-over-at-all-costs approach. Maybe the Giants eke out a few more wins with that, continue to convince themselves with another year he can be a demonstrably different player than the entirety of his career, and their draft position suffers. That's true QB hell.
QuoteIs the OL gelling, or playing better because they're rallying behind DeVito?
Or is it because recent competition stinks by comparison to the five teams they faced to open the season?
Or are DeVito's occasional excellent plays giving them hope and inspiration?
Bob
I don't know about rallying, as I think the Giants players generally like and respect DJ. I don't see why they wouldn't play hard for him. I would have to imagine having an actual vertical element to the offense takes some pressure off. Washington and New England are two of the easier teams the Giants have faced this season (and Washington sold at the deadline and Rivera looks like a goner, so they may be packing it in).
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 29, 2023, 10:15:51 AMI don't know about rallying, as I think the Giants players generally like and respect DJ. I don't see why they wouldn't play hard for him. I would have to imagine having an actual vertical element to the offense takes some pressure off. Washington and New England are two of the easier teams the Giants have faced this season (and Washington sold at the deadline and Rivera looks like a goner, so they may be packing it in).
H-T: I agree about the OL and Jones. Yes, occasional success deep and/or behind the linebackers doesn't hurt, but they've even picked up a few stunts and blitzes in the process. I believe a lot of the "improvement" is/was Pugh getting up to speed (from rusty to not too bad) in the past few weeks along with the return of injured guys.
Bob
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 28, 2023, 09:47:14 PMGood point that the fans would have understood an offer less than what they gave him. Where would you have drawn the line? A one year or multi year and how much?
Ed
Most here had a number in mind that was a good deal for the Giants and Jones, something like 32-35 Mil. I think everyone could have lived with that, but Jones and his agent thought they could squeeze the Giants with a playoff game in the win column and they succeeded and we and the Giants are the losers.
\ How would you feel if Jones were making say 33mil? would we feel as bad now?
Quote from: coggs on November 28, 2023, 09:53:53 PMIf they didnt sign Jones and the season unfolded like it has, there would be a HUGE uproar about how Schoen needs to go. He would not have ANY support among the fanbase,
This may be so, but if we didn't sign Jones and brought in a viable option like say Jimm G, who knows how the season might have gone? And, I truly believe most of the fans are not infatuated with Jones the way the Maras are. Most basically blame him for our downward turn and with good reason, so I really do not think the uproar would be as bad as you say.
Quote from: LennG on November 29, 2023, 11:20:43 AMEd
Most here had a number in mind that was a good deal for the Giants and Jones, something like 32-35 Mil. I think everyone could have lived with that, but Jones and his agent thought they could squeeze the Giants with a playoff game in the win column and they succeeded and we and the Giants are the losers.
\ How would you feel if Jones were making say 33mil? would we feel as bad now?
On a one year deal? It would have hurt this year's cap but then he would be done. That's essentially the Tag amount.
I'm not sure about the financial implications, but whoever they brought in, short term, because I'm sure that would be their plan, the on field results would be no worse. They (Schoen/Daboll) both want to groom their own QB. Too bad they didn't do it immediately and were saddled with a mediocre QB to start their tenure.
I believe the Giants wiuks have started Taylor who'd get sacked 60+ times and the Giants would still be where they are at due to a crap OL and marginal QB play.
Quote from: LennG on November 29, 2023, 11:23:59 AMThis may be so, but if we didn't sign Jones and brought in a viable option like say Jimm G, who knows how the season might have gone? And, I truly believe most of the fans are not infatuated with Jones the way the Maras are. Most basically blame him for our downward turn and with good reason, so I really do not think the uproar would be as bad as you say.
IMO, they would be just as bad, if not worse with Jimmy G as QB.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 29, 2023, 11:28:58 AMOn a one year deal? It would have hurt this year's cap but then he would be done. That's essentially the Tag amount.
If they played their cards right, we should have been able to sign Jones for that under-inflated number and then either lock up Barkley or go out and possibly buy a decent enough QB. We did it with Kerry Collins years back. Going into this past offseason we weren't strapped for cash, we had some to be a player, but Jones prevented that with that massive contract, then Barkley, and then Lawrence.
The front office should not worry about the fans. Fans have the temperament of children. They'll stomp their feet, hold their breath till they look like Grumpy Smurf, and storm out in a huff. Then when the blood seeps back to their brain, they'll come back in droves. It happens all the time. The NFL is a business and business decisions are made by people who have the inside info and will face consequences for their decisions. Not by people who sew their names on the back of a # 56 jersey. Jones was not, and is still not, worth the contract. They did not believe in him fully by putting in a 2-year-and-out clause in the contract. They should have let him test FA to see that other teams weren't going to come close to 40 million dollars. Or, throw him a bone and tag him for 30 + million. Now Jones is taking up a roster spot next year because of salary implications. Schoen had to say that he is the starter next year to save face. But he should have to fight for his position, just like everyone else.
Quote from: fromthebside on November 29, 2023, 01:59:14 PMThe front office should not worry about the fans. Fans have the temperament of children. They'll stomp their feet, hold their breath till they look like Grumpy Smurf, and storm out in a huff. Then when the blood seeps back to their brain, they'll come back in droves. It happens all the time. The NFL is a business and business decisions are made by people who have the inside info and will face consequences for their decisions. Not by people who sew their names on the back of a # 56 jersey. Jones was not, and is still not, worth the contract. They did not believe in him fully by putting in a 2-year-and-out clause in the contract. They should have let him test FA to see that other teams weren't going to come close to 40 million dollars. Or, throw him a bone and tag him for 30 + million. Now Jones is taking up a roster spot next year because of salary implications. Schoen had to say that he is the starter next year to save face. But he should have to fight for his position, just like everyone else.
I love your throwing in an 80's Saturday morning cartoon reference.
Quote from: LennG on November 29, 2023, 11:23:59 AMThis may be so, but if we didn't sign Jones and brought in a viable option like say Jimm G, who knows how the season might have gone? And, I truly believe most of the fans are not infatuated with Jones the way the Maras are. Most basically blame him for our downward turn and with good reason, so I really do not think the uproar would be as bad as you say.
Im not sure you're correct re: most fans not being infatuated - Just using this board as an example, the vast majority of high volume posters were definitely infatuated with Jones, those that weren't were labelled "haters" amongst other things.
The idea that the majority were not delighted when Jones was re-signed is incorrect.
However, the majority of those Jones followers cartwheeling and taking victory laps over the extension have skipped to the other side. But that's sports fans, I guess.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 29, 2023, 07:03:06 PMIm not sure you're correct re: most fans not being infatuated - Just using this board as an example, the vast majority of high volume posters were definitely infatuated with Jones, those that weren't were labelled "haters" amongst other things.
The idea that the majority were not delighted when Jones was re-signed is incorrect.
However, the majority of those Jones followers cartwheeling and taking victory laps over the extension have skipped to the other side. But that's sports fans, I guess.
Ed I won't quibble on those items. From reading this board, I would still say though that more than half t he board was not happy with Jones resigning the way he did. Most here know I was always a vocal poster against Jones, to begin with, but I still rooted for his success as the NY Giants QB. You simply cannot root for him to fail, and then the team fails. Only the real 'haters' not the ones labeled that by Jones's supporters wanted him to fail and that means the Giants fail also.
Anyway
I was hoping they would pass on Jones and sign Geno. He signed with Seattle for far less than Jones.
Jones was a crap QB who made something with his legs, and I knew once he had a contract they would throttle down the runs. They kind of didn't care when he was on the last year of his deal.
They were calling Jones Vanilla Vick, but really he was RG3 all over again, making plays with a gimmick offense and bombing out the next season