Did they ever interview him before they spent the 20th overall pick in the draft on him? Glaring stupidity combined with a complete lack of dependability and accountability is not what you want for any player on your team, much less a first-round pick.
QuoteToney claimed that it's the referee's job to tell a player if he is lined up illegally. That's not a requirement of the officials' job, although officials do sometimes give warnings to players and coaches.
"Whether it was, an inch, two inches, whatever in front of the ball, the referee got a job to let me know," Toney told reporters in the Chiefs' locker room. "He didn't make no effort. You watch the video, he didn't make no effort to say anything about no alignment. So apparently, he wanted to do that regardless. But like I said, we're just going back to the details and just make sure we fine print everything."
Toney also said the NFL falsely claimed that a referee warned him about being offside. But referee Carl Cheffers' only comment came to a pool reporter immediately following the game, and Cheffers stood by the call and said the officials are under no obligation to warn players that they're offside.
"Then they came back and lied and said they gave me a warning, which I never talked to a ref," Toney said.
Toney said he considers the offside call "Pretty much bogus, and that it took away what should have been one of the highlights of Chiefs tight end Travis Kelce's career. Kelce caught a pass from Patrick Mahomes and then spontaneously lateraled the ball to Toney, who ran it in for a touchdown that the offside flag wiped out.
"Unfortunately, they took back the greatest play the greatest tight end that played the game did," Toney said. "Just a great play taken back by the greatest tight end."
https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/kadarius-toney-refs-job-is-to-warn-me-they-took-away-one-of-the-greatest-plays-ever
Gettleman let anyone who would listen know that he wanted to draft Devonte Smith. Philly came in and drafted him first, then, as I see it, Gettleman panicked and picked Toney because he was dead set on getting a WR, thinking that was going to be the answer for a struggling offense.
Quote from: ozzie on December 16, 2023, 08:16:27 AMGettleman let anyone who would listen know that he wanted to draft Devonte Smith. Philly came in and drafted him first, then, as I see it, Gettleman panicked and picked Toney because he was dead set on getting a WR, thinking that was going to be the answer for a struggling offense.
He traded back with Chicago after Smith went off the board, so it wasn't a pure panic move to draft Toney. But it certainly was strange (to say the least) to make that trade only to draft a guy who at best was a gadget player in college with noteworthy and questionable decision making.
Toney is a very talented athlete
As I recall he played a role in KCs SB victory last year
As for 2023 the Chiefs got "Taylor Swifted". Kelce lost his compass. LOL
With all the love and respect for you Rich
@MightyGiants , it is subjects like this that I am grateful that Coach Daboll and Joe Schoen wasted no time in sending him off to the highest bidder.
While we all can debate the value of the return of investment in that trade, I will say the drama with the whole offsides play illustrates why the Giants feel they made out well in the end.
Peace!
I remember the night well. I was both pissed and heartbroken when the Eagles jumped us to take Smith. I liked Parsons a hell of a lot, as most did, but I knew we weren't taking him given his iffy reputation at the time. And if I recall (I may be wrong about this) Slater had some injury concerns. So when they traded back, I liked the move because they got such a huge haul. The price the Bears paid in terms of draft capital and the points grid was definitely a high one.
I didn't mind the Toney pick at the time. I would not have wanted him in the top 15, but he struck me as kind of a raw player but an electric talent who might be able to be coached up into being a really good receiver. I remember at the time feeling like we desperately needed playmakers, and he fit that bill. I knew he was an unpolished route runner but he struck me as a guy who could just make plays if you get him the ball in space. I also thought the Bears would stink in 2022, so I thought we'd have a high pick from them, which we did.
So I can't sit here today and pretend I hated all of that. I hated that we didn't get Devonta Smith, as he was the apple of my eye in that draft for where we were picking, but in terms of how that unfortunate miss was handled I didn't have a problem with it at the time. And I also thought we got good value on Azeez in that draft, as did pretty much every pundit and, if memory serves, most posters here.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 16, 2023, 08:43:27 AMI remember the night well. I was both pissed and heartbroken when the Eagles jumped us to take Smith. I liked Parsons a hell of a lot, as most did, but I knew we weren't taking him given his iffy reputation at the time. And if I recall (I may be wrong about this) Slater had some injury concerns. So when they traded back, I liked the move because they got such a huge haul. The price the Bears paid in terms of draft capital and the points grid was definitely a high one.
I didn't mind the Toney pick at the time. I would not have wanted him in the top 15, but he struck me as kind of a raw player but an electric talent who might be able to be coached up into being a really good receiver. I remember at the time feeling like we desperately needed playmakers, and he fit that bill. I knew he was an unpolished route runner but he struck me as a guy who could just make plays if you get him the ball in space. I also thought the Bears would stink in 2022, so I thought we'd have a high pick from them, which we did.
So I can't sit here today and pretend I hated all of that. I hated that we didn't get Devonta Smith, as he was the apple of my eye in that draft for where we were picking, but in terms of how that unfortunate miss was handled I didn't have a problem with it at the time. And I also thought we got good value on Azeez in that draft, as did pretty much every pundit and, if memory serves, most posters here.
Jeff,
I think it's worth remembering that there are the teams, and then there are the rest of us (fans and draftniks). Teams get to spend quite a bit of time interviewing players (at Combine/Bowl interviews, plus Zoom meetings and sometimes even team visits). They also have scouts who talk to coaches and other people around players to find out about the person.
If you watch the tape, you get Toney, a talented player with a few off-the-field red flags who was also injury-prone. When you talk to Toney, you get a sense that you don't want him anywhere near the team.
So that is why I question Judge and Gettleman on this.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 16, 2023, 08:53:04 AMJeff,
I think it's worth remembering that there are the teams, and then there are the rest of us (fans and draftniks). Teams get to spend quite a bit of time interviewing players (at Combine/Bowl interviews, plus Zoom meetings and sometimes even team visits). They also have scouts who talk to coaches and other people around players to find out about the person.
If you watch the tape, you get Toney, a talented player with a few off-the-field red flags who was also injury-prone. When you talk to Toney, you get a sense that you don't want him anywhere near the team.
So that is why I question Judge and Gettleman on this.
I certainly question the pick now, as anyone would.
How did you feel about it at the time? Did you express opposition to it? What about a few days after after you had had a chance to do more due diligence on him? Were you pessimistic? I don't recall who said what, but I remember people being generally optimistic about his potential.
I agree that the team obviously has more access, resources, and of course expertise, but the sentiment on Judge coming out of the 2020 season wasn't that bad. They had been 6-10, which was a clear improvement over the 2019 season, and they looked decent in a number of losses. I figured at the time that Judge had screened Toney and done his due diligence on him from a character standpoint. Obviously I ended up being wrong about all that, but I don't remember many other Giants fans/posters panning the pick at the time.
The marching orders were to get DJ Weapons. He was the BPA at that position when they traded down. I can't see anyone interviewing him and coming away thinking, that's our guy.
Because every team in the league is trying to find that tyreek hill clone. not saying they are the same caliber of player, but toney was supposed to have that game breaking ability. and with our oline issues, he was supposed to be a guy that takes a 6 yard pass 30 yards with his ability to make people miss.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 16, 2023, 08:59:15 AMI certainly question the pick now, as anyone would.
How did you feel about it at the time? Did you express opposition to it? What about a few days after after you had had a chance to do more due diligence on him? Were you pessimistic? I don't recall who said what, but I remember people being generally optimistic about his potential.
I agree that the team obviously has more access, resources, and of course expertise, but the sentiment on Judge coming out of the 2020 season wasn't that bad. They had been 6-10, which was a clear improvement over the 2019 season, and they looked decent in a number of losses. I figured at the time that Judge had screened Toney and done his due diligence on him from a character standpoint. Obviously I ended up being wrong about all that, but I don't remember many other Giants fans/posters panning the pick at the time.
Jeff,
I try to be optimistic about all the Giants' picks. That said, he wasn't even on my draft list (players I wanted for the Giants) because of his size, injury history, and off-field issues.
I would also point out that once fans got to hear Toney talk, many red flags were raised.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 16, 2023, 09:11:02 AMJeff,
I try to be optimistic about all the Giants' picks. That said, he wasn't even on my draft list (players I wanted for the Giants) because of his size, injury history, and off-field issues.
I would also point out that once fans got to hear Toney talk, many red flags were raised.
Funny, I recall being pleasantly surprised when I saw his size. I figured he was smaller than he is before I actually saw his height and weight. 6'0" 194 pounds for a player with his quickness and burst seemed like a really good size to me, not a liability. There are plenty of elite receivers who are both shorter and lighter than that, some significantly so.
Perhaps Gettleman mentally "retired" before he took the Giants GM job.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 16, 2023, 09:19:14 AMFunny, I recall being pleasantly surprised when I saw his size. I figured he was smaller than he is before I actually saw his height and weight. 6'0" 194 pounds for a player with his quickness and burst seemed like a really good size to me, not a liability. There are plenty of elite receivers who are both shorter and lighter than that, some significantly so.
I wanted the Giants to draft a true X receiver and Toney is undersized to play that position.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 16, 2023, 08:11:47 AMDid they ever interview him before they spent the 20th overall pick in the draft on him? Glaring stupidity combined with a complete lack of dependability and accountability is not what you want for any player on your team, much less a first-round pick.
https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/kadarius-toney-refs-job-is-to-warn-me-they-took-away-one-of-the-greatest-plays-ever
And now Mahomes and Reid have backed off, essentially admitting it was a correct call and that Toney failed to point to the sidelines, which is how a receiver asks if his position is OK. It's a learning moment for Reid and Mahomes. Toney is a weak reed to assume he did the right thing.
IMOFWIW...Gettleman was so completely invested in drafting Smith that he was mentally unprepared and panicked, grabbing the first highly ranked WR on the board. It was a bozo move. Every GM should have a plan A, B, C, D...when preparing for the first round. He didn't even have a plan B and was stunned, speechless, and dumbfounded and ended up standing by himself with johnson in hand and fighting back tears
Hindsight is 20/20. At the time, Toney was considered a first round talent. We don't really know what kind of background checks they did on Toney in terms of his character. It could just be that there were no red flags to be found.
Quote from: jgrangers2 on December 16, 2023, 10:28:12 AMHindsight is 20/20. At the time, Toney was considered a first round talent. We don't really know what kind of background checks they did on Toney in terms of his character. It could just be that there were no red flags to be found.
Did you read the quotes in the article I posted?
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 16, 2023, 10:40:11 AMDid you read the quotes in the article I posted?
The quotes have nothing to do with what kind of character issues he may have been laden with heading into the 2021 NFL draft. There may have been no reason to think he'd become what he's become
They drafted a mental midget in Toney too, as well as his stature. He isn't anything but a clown.
I wanted Parsons despite signs of immaturity. Hell.. LT was completely immature at UNC..once climbing the bell tower on a dare. Yet..he worked out
Sometimes great talent you have to trust in.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on December 16, 2023, 10:07:18 AMIMOFWIW...Gettleman was so completely invested in drafting Smith that he was mentally unprepared and panicked, grabbing the first highly ranked WR on the board. It was a bozo move. Every GM should have a plan A, B, C, D...when preparing for the first round. He didn't even have a plan B and was stunned, speechless, and dumbfounded and ended up standing by himself with johnson in hand and fighting back tears
With all of the talk about doing due diligence on top guys even when they aren't particularly interested in them, that doesn't seem to have happened in Toney's case. Even though picking a WR was high on their priority list. It is hard to imagine a scout talking to this guy for ten minutes and not getting him taken off the Giants' board.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 16, 2023, 10:40:11 AMDid you read the quotes in the article I posted?
Weren't you critical of trading away 'DJs best WR'? Why the 180? Are you now supportive of the trade? If you are supportive of said trade, do you believe the current management is capable of executing a rebuild?
As stated on draft night, Toney was a terrible pick; the Giants deserve a medal for executing that trade, and that's not revisionist history.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 16, 2023, 11:45:02 AMWith all of the talk about doing due diligence on top guys even when they aren't particularly interested in them, that doesn't seem to have happened in Toney's case. Even though picking a WR was high on their priority list. It is hard to imagine a scout talking to this guy for ten minutes and not getting him taken off the Giants' board.
The scouts note should all have read, "NOPE". He's a total space cadet.
This story should have been enough to disqualify him, instead it they explained it away and drafted him anyway. This is malpractice.
https://www.nj.com/giants/2021/05/how-giants-dug-deep-into-kadarius-toneys-gun-related-incidents-at-florida-and-what-they-learned-about-him-hes-not-that-guy.html
Was Toney a product of targeting a position rather than going BPA?
Quote from: jgrangers2 on December 16, 2023, 10:28:12 AMHindsight is 20/20. At the time, Toney was considered a first round talent. We don't really know what kind of background checks they did on Toney in terms of his character. It could just be that there were no red flags to be found.
Are you kidding? There were numerous red flags. Anyways...I dont see Toney in the NFL very long. Defiantly any team going after him after his rookie contract is over wont be breaking the bank to sign him.
I understood at the time trading down to get an extra first round pick, and this is only Monday Morning quarterbacking , but if Gettleman did not make that trade , Micah Parsons was on the board to be drafted . Imagine a linebacking duo of Parsons and Thibodeaux !!!
So I guess it was Neal for Parsons !!!
Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on December 16, 2023, 01:46:14 PMI understood at the time trading down to get an extra first round pick, and this is only Monday Morning quarterbacking , but if Gettleman did not make that trade , Micah Parsons was on the board to be drafted . Imagine a linebacking duo of Parsons and Thibodeaux !!!
So I guess it was Neal for Parsons !!!
Now that post is the ultimate mike drop!
Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 16, 2023, 12:35:56 PMWas Toney a product of targeting a position rather than going BPA?
I think Elijah Moore was a significant better pure prospect than Toney was for pick 20. So I don't know if they had blinders on or what but Moore fit Garrett's offense significantly better than Toney.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 16, 2023, 02:06:27 PMI think Elijah Moore was a significant better pure prospect than Toney was for pick 20. So I don't know if they had blinders on our what but Moore fit Garrett's offense significantly better than Toney.
Seems the Giants thought the opposite. I have no idea how they grade prospects but their selection of Toney tells me who they liked better.
I would think the alleged versatility (WR, returner and RB on some types if plays) increased his grade even though he hadn't shown real development at the position which he was drafted to play.
I was just thinking parsons and tibs
With dex
That would be scary and delicious
But no way they should of drafted tony
That is what talking to people suppose to do
I dont think you can assume if they stayed put and drafted Parsons that they pick at the same place and get Thibodeaux.
Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on December 16, 2023, 01:46:14 PMI understood at the time trading down to get an extra first round pick, and this is only Monday Morning quarterbacking , but if Gettleman did not make that trade , Micah Parsons was on the board to be drafted . Imagine a linebacking duo of Parsons and Thibodeaux !!!
So I guess it was Neal for Parsons !!!
It was Thibodeaux for Parsons. If they draft a pass rusher in 2021, they're probably not spending another top pick on a pass rusher in 2022.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 16, 2023, 09:55:15 AMAnd now Mahomes and Reid have backed off, essentially admitting it was a correct call and that Toney failed to point to the sidelines, which is how a receiver asks if his position is OK. It's a learning moment for Reid and Mahomes. Toney is a weak reed to assume he did the right thing.
Here is why.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/chiefs/2023/12/16/kansas-city-chiefs-patrick-mahomes-andy-reid-fined-criticizing-refs/71943648007/
There were so many things wrong with the Toney pick. First, from what I've read, he was often injured in college. Same here. Second, i dont know about his non football intelligence but he clearly is not an intelligent football player; I've read he does not know the play book. Highly unlikely to me is he didn't have similar problems in college. Similar to Deondre Baker. I can't believe a guy who falls asleep at meetings had a pristine college career in that regard. The front office and/or scouts missed stuff.
Last, at a highly critical position of need then (and now), they passed on Darrisaw.
Quote from: nb587 on December 16, 2023, 04:01:10 PMThere were so many things wrong with the Toney pick. First, from what I've read, he was often injured in college. Same here. Second, i dont know about his non football intelligence but he clearly is not an intelligent football player; I've read he does not know the play book. Highly unlikely to me is he didn't have similar problems in college. Similar to Deondre Baker. I can't believe a guy who falls asleep at meetings had a pristine college career in that regard. The front office and/or scouts missed stuff.
Last, at a highly critical position of need then (and now), they passed on Darrisaw.
Pretty sure he had a gun charge at Florida among other things.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 16, 2023, 04:09:04 PMPretty sure he had a gun charge at Florida among other things.
It was a fake gun or something. He may have been arrested but I don't think he was actually criminally charged with anything. He was definitely suspended from the team though at least once. His record was not spotless by any means.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 16, 2023, 04:37:49 PMIt was a fake gun or something. He may have been arrested but I don't think he was actually criminally charged with anything. He was definitely suspended from the team though at least once. His record was not spotless by any means.
He was pulled over with an assault rifle in the back seat, which was not a crime since FL doesn't require you to have a gun license so there was no arrest. There was an earlier incident with an airsoft gun painted to look like an AR-15. He claimed he bought the real AR-15 because he got into a scuffle with some locals. The whole thing should have been a huge red flag.
Had they not traded back and not taken Parsons, they could have taken Slater to be the RT and possibly Thibs the next season, although who knows what their record would have been with Slater at RT (his season ending injury in LA notwithstanding, it's no guarantee he would have his season cut short if he played for the Giants). If they take Parsons, it's probably Neal in 2022. It was just a bad year to pick OL.
We can play that woulda/coulda/shoulda game with countless decisions made over the past decade by multiple GMs, multiple coaches, and the owner. It would be a conversation you could have for days, weeks, maybe even months on end. It is of little use now though, particularly lamenting the decisions of individuals who have long since been fired for being bad, and in multiple cases downright horrible, at their jobs. The hope is the current leadership is competent and that the franchise is heading in a positive direction. I believe that they are, albeit they have certainly not been perfect and there have been some bumps.
A man needs to have his priorities.
Why on earth did Reid trade for him?
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 16, 2023, 03:27:45 PMHere is why.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/chiefs/2023/12/16/kansas-city-chiefs-patrick-mahomes-andy-reid-fined-criticizing-refs/71943648007/
Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 16, 2023, 07:40:42 PMPotential
Yup. Reid traded for a player he thought he could bring into the fold. He did for years in Philly...
Quote from: Philosophers on December 16, 2023, 06:40:19 PMWhy on earth did Reid trade for him?
Because they whiffed on Skyy Moore who is an even bigger bust. But they hit the jackpot with Rashee Rice so they are less dependent on Toney now.
I said this on another thread when I saw Deebo Samuels take over a game a few weeks ago. Toney has a similar kind of skill set physically. I wonder if Reid thought he could harness that in the same way the Giants did but Reid should be much better at coaching plus he has Mahomes as the leader of the offense. Toney is a tremendous talent but clearly something is missing between the ears and he may just end up being a very good punt returner.
My question on the other thread, was Toney a Gettleman pick or a Judge pick? I've seen speculation for both. My anti Gettleman mindset is to blame him for everything plus he was the GM but I've never seen anything definitive and am very curious for some strange reason.
Toney is at it again. Gifted an interception to the Patriots after he had the ball in his hands.