It's not an enviable record by any measure.
2012 to 2023
GMs - Jerry Reese - 2017 - Dave Gettleman - 2021- Joe Schoen
HCs- Tom Coughlin - 2015 - Ben McAdoo - 2017 - Pat Shurmur - 2019 - Joe Judge - 2021 - Brian Daboll
QBs- Eli Manning - 2018/201 - Daniel Jones (ended the season on IR 2021 and 2023)
It's not a surprise that this goes hand in hand with the OL falling off.
It fell off under Jerry Reese. Gettlemen couldn't fix it, though coincidentally, he's given us our best offensive lineman since Chris Snee. Most of Schoen's pieces haven't panned out either. When you couple this with average *at best* QB play, it's no wonder why we can't win any games unless the schedule is super easy. Move up to grab a QB. Use R2 picks for OL and I think that would help. The defense is fine, they just need help from complimentary football.
Quote from: drewsg on December 18, 2023, 10:05:53 AMIt's not a surprise that this goes hand in hand with the OL falling off.
It fell off under Jerry Reese. Gettlemen couldn't fix it, though coincidentally, he's given us our best offensive lineman since Chris Snee. Most of Schoen's pieces haven't panned out either. When you couple this with average *at best* QB play, it's no wonder why we can't win any games unless the schedule is super easy. Move up to grab a QB. Use R2 picks for OL and I think that would help. The defense is fine, they just need help from complimentary football.
It's not from lack of trying, in terms of drafting:
2011
4 James Brewer 117 T
2012
4 Brandon Mosley 131 T
6 Matt McCants 201 T
2013
1 Justin Pugh 19 T
7 Eric Herman 225 OL
2014
2 Weston Richburg 43 OL
2015
1 Ereck Flowers 9 T
7 Bobby Hart 226 G
2016
None
2017
2017 6 Adam Bisnowaty 200 T
2018
2 Will Hernandez 34 G
2019
2019 7 George Asafo-Adjei 232 T
2020
1 Andrew Thomas
3 Matt Peart 99 T
5 Shane Lemieux 150 G
2021
None
2022
1 Evan Neal 7 OL
3 Joshua Ezeudu 67 OL
5 Marcus McKethan 173 OL
2023
2 John Michael Schmitz 57 OL
Quote from: drewsg on December 18, 2023, 10:05:53 AMIt's not a surprise that this goes hand in hand with the OL falling off.
It fell off under Jerry Reese. Gettlemen couldn't fix it, though coincidentally, he's given us our best offensive lineman since Chris Snee. Most of Schoen's pieces haven't panned out either. When you couple this with average *at best* QB play, it's no wonder why we can't win any games unless the schedule is super easy. Move up to grab a QB. Use R2 picks for OL and I think that would help. The defense is fine, they just need help from complimentary football.
Not sure how we can say the defense is fine? The Saints moved the ball at will in the 2nd half yesterday. They do well and put up big numbers against lousy teams. Otherwise, they have been pretty terrible.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 18, 2023, 10:22:54 AMIt's not from lack of trying, in terms of drafting:
2011
4 James Brewer 117 T
2012
4 Brandon Mosley 131 T
6 Matt McCants 201 T
2013
1 Justin Pugh 19 T
7 Eric Herman 225 OL
2014
2 Weston Richburg 43 OL
2015
1 Ereck Flowers 9 T
7 Bobby Hart 226 G
2016
None
2017
2017 6 Adam Bisnowaty 200 T
2018
2 Will Hernandez 34 G
2019
2019 7 George Asafo-Adjei 232 T
2020
1 Andrew Thomas
3 Matt Peart 99 T
5 Shane Lemieux 150 G
2021
None
2022
1 Evan Neal 7 OL
3 Joshua Ezeudu 67 OL
5 Marcus McKethan 173 OL
2023
2 John Michael Schmitz 57 OL
I remember when people on here felt that Will Hernandez was ALMOST as good as Quinton Nelson and to get him in the 2nd round was a steal. Yeah, and I am almost as good as Quinton Nelson, too.
At what point do people start questioning the coaching. The way I see it is the that the OL is probably the part football that it is most imperative that they work as a team. It seems to me the coaching is absolutely the problem here. I have seen regression and I have seen the OL play above average. Which leads me to believe that there is a consistency problem and that to me is coaching. The lack of building off good performances only to fall flat in their faces time and again. The Giants need to get better coaching. Dump Kafka and get the OL coach from SF to be the OC. To me that's the disconnect Kafka and Johnson. I still don't think Daboll is a good coach outside of the first 6-7 games to his Giants career he has been a disaster. He can't even come up with a plan to compete vs division rivals.
We need a better plan for the OL. I hate to say this but the Giants do not have an identity. That is usually an extension of the coaches.
Quote from: coggs on December 18, 2023, 10:23:17 AMNot sure how we can say the defense is fine? The Saints moved the ball at will in the 2nd half yesterday. They do well and put up big numbers against lousy teams. Otherwise, they have been pretty terrible.
Wink called a lousy game. No pressure on a QB who folds under it.
Quote from: coggs on December 18, 2023, 10:25:15 AMI remember when people on here felt that Will Hernandez was ALMOST as good as Quinton Nelson and to get him in the 2nd round was a steal. Yeah, and I am almost as good as Quinton Nelson, too.
When he was drafted he looked like a great pickup. 20-20 hindsight
Gilbride told them this in late 2012 and was ignored then fired after 2013. Flaherty said the same and was fired.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 18, 2023, 11:27:36 AMWhen he was drafted he looked like a great pickup. 20-20 hindsight
The Ramses Barden of Guards
Quote from: Giantleap56 on December 18, 2023, 11:24:10 AMAt what point do people start questioning the coaching. The way I see it is the that the OL is probably the part football that it is most imperative that they work as a team. It seems to me the coaching is absolutely the problem here. I have seen regression and I have seen the OL play above average. Which leads me to believe that there is a consistency problem and that to me is coaching. The lack of building off good performances only to fall flat in their faces time and again. The Giants need to get better coaching. Dump Kafka and get the OL coach from SF to be the OC. To me that's the disconnect Kafka and Johnson. I still don't think Daboll is a good coach outside of the first 6-7 games to his Giants career he has been a disaster. He can't even come up with a plan to compete vs division rivals.
We need a better plan for the OL. I hate to say this but the Giants do not have an identity. That is usually an extension of the coaches.
You make a lot of sense. I was thinking about Tim Coughlin's attention to detail and he hammered it into his coaches and players. At some point they have to look at Daboll who's an excellent OC and QB mentor but is he a Peter Principal?
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 18, 2023, 11:29:52 AMThe Ramses Barden of Guards
You don't get a steak dinner. You had to call it then. ;)
RIP JimV
Let's throw a a little gasoline on the pyre. I've been a fan since 1965. Since then their record is 424-481 with 5 ties. That's a 46% winning percentage. They have been a historically losing franchise. I would like to see a large group of us in a meeting with John Mara, Pat Hanlon, Schoen and Daboll. Schoen and Daboll I would leave alone. They are their to listen and observe. However I'd RIP into Mara, and Hanlon starting with those statistics, then adding the financial rip-off they put on the fans in attendance(ticket price, seat license, parking, food, merchandise) while putting forth a consistently inferior product. Despite the four trophies numbers don't lie. Why Hanlon? I can't stand people that paint a rosy picture, it's sunny during a blizzard, while knowing the truth. I know it's PR, but you know what you can do with it. I'd start it like this. John, every one in this room has at least one thing in common, we love the Giants. Call it a family, so this is a family dinner. Then I'd RIP into them with the above. At the end I'd ask John to pass the mashed potatoes.
Quote from: files58 on December 18, 2023, 03:32:05 PMLet's throw a a little gasoline on the pyre. I've been a fan since 1965. Since then their record is 424-481 with 5 ties. That's a 46% winning percentage. They have been a historically losing franchise. I would like to see a large group of us in a meeting with John Mara, Pat Hanlon, Schoen and Daboll. Schoen and Daboll I would leave alone. They are their to listen and observe. However I'd RIP into Mara, and Hanlon starting with those statistics, then adding the financial rip-off they put on the fans in attendance(ticket price, seat license, parking, food, merchandise) while putting forth a consistently inferior product. Despite the four trophies numbers don't lie. Why Hanlon? I can't stand people that paint a rosy picture, it's sunny during a blizzard, while knowing the truth. I know it's PR, but you know what you can do with it. I'd start it like this. John, every one in this room has at least one thing in common, we love the Giants. Call it a family, so this is a family dinner. Then I'd RIP into them with the above. At the end I'd ask John to pass the mashed potatoes.
20. John Mara, New York Giants: 138-157-1 (.468)
Owner since: Oct. 26, 2005
Playoff record: 9-5 (2-0 in Super Bowls)
Coach inherited: Tom Coughlin
Coaches hired: Ben McAdoo (13-15), Pat Shurmur (9-23), Joe Judge (10-23), Brian Daboll (13-15-1)
The Mara name is legendary in the NFL, but the franchise's trajectory since Hall of Famer Wellington Mara merits some scrutiny.
With Coughlin already in place, the Giants won two Super Bowls in the first six seasons after John Mara took over for his father. The team ranks 27th in winning percentage since that second Super Bowl victory following the 2011 season. The Giants' 82-123-1 (.400) record over that span outranks the records for the Commanders, Raiders, Jets, Browns and Jaguars. The Lions recently overtook the Giants since 2012.
https://theathletic.com/5115078/2023/12/08/nfl-owners-ranking-32-teams/
John is like his father. Wellington was revered, but after the success in the early NFL days he was a pathetic owner. He let the game pass him by. Always too conservative. Nepotism also did them in. It took an intervention to get them back to winning with George Young. Coughlin is part of the Parcells/Young tree. Since then, John Mara has been an abysmal owner, making bad hire after bad hire. I mean, who hires Joe Judge?
Surely the o-line drop off is down to the CBA and the lack of padded practices.
Same for grabby players in the secondary?
You can't teach this technique in shells (coming from someone 4,000 miles away and never padded up so not attacking, just asking).
Mara is meddlesome...too. Barkley is his pet, for example..Jones another. Neopotism permeates during his ownership. Cronies get a pass (Ronnie Barnes) as well. And he gave loyal fans that awful stadium as a bonus.
The results speak for themselves.
:sick:
Quote from: spiderblue43 on December 18, 2023, 05:01:43 PMMara is meddlesome...too. Barkley is his pet, for example..Jones another. Neopotism permeates during his ownership. Cronies get a pass (Ronnie Barnes) as well. And he gave loyal fans that awful stadium as a bonus.
The results speak for themselves.
:sick:
You know, I've studied and studied this phenomena and I still don't get it. Stadiums and the presences of NFL teams have shown almost uniformly that they do not: stimulate the local economy, create jobs or make the destination a more desirable tourist attraction. They typically don't generate huge tax dollars.
I totally understand why NFL owners try to negotiate some monies towards a new stadium be footed by the public - it doesn't cost them anything to ask/demand and the return can be huge in terms of offsetting the cost. My question is why do public servants and politicians cede to those demands, or in the event a team is moving, like the Rams did a few years back - why a new location would jump for joy and throw money at them to move?
Totally baffling to me. I'm of the opinion that no public monies should ever go towards the building/maintenance of an entertainment venue. If owners want to try to push that cost on their consumers via PSLs, that's their right but I sure as xxxx wouldn't sign up for that. The corporations can buy those up and give them away and your fan base will be fair-weather fans and one-time only attendees, not die-hards.
Agree with you on stadiums. Public money should not go towards them. The economic analyses show that the spending impact pretty much cannibalizes entertainment spending that would otherwise be spent in the same city but at different locations and at different times. But the Giants are one of the few (only?) franchises to not get public funding for a stadium.
Another take on the original post. I believe (this is armchair speculation) that Mara has less wealth outside of the team than most other owners. (This needs to be checked.) I think that means he is more conservative with his decisions than other owners. That could lead to going with safer choices which also leads to over-reliance on people you personally know. Like hiring Mac-A-Don't.
The 2023 value of the Giants is 6.8 Billion. John share is half that. No need to be conservative, and safe with choices.
Quote from: files58 on December 18, 2023, 08:21:28 PMThe 2023 value of the Giants is 6.8 Billion. John share is half that. No need to be conservative, and safe with choices.
It's not about the money.
Quote from: bldevil on December 18, 2023, 06:46:37 PMAgree with you on stadiums. Public money should not go towards them. The economic analyses show that the spending impact pretty much cannibalizes entertainment spending that would otherwise be spent in the same city but at different locations and at different times. But the Giants are one of the few (only?) franchises to not get public funding for a stadium.
Another take on the original post. I believe (this is armchair speculation) that Mara has less wealth outside of the team than most other owners. (This needs to be checked.) I think that means he is more conservative with his decisions than other owners. That could lead to going with safer choices which also leads to over-reliance on people you personally know. Like hiring Mac-A-Don't.
I have read the same about the Maras. Almost all of their money is the team.
Quote from: files58 on December 18, 2023, 08:21:28 PMThe 2023 value of the Giants is 6.8 Billion. John share is half that. No need to be conservative, and safe with choices.
Yes, but that $3.4B is not in actual liquid assets unless they sell. Cash flow and annual income is a concern for them.