On his latest podcast, Sims talks about what he sees in Mike Pennix
If you want to hear his full eval, it starts around the 17:45 mark of his Complete Simms podcast
https://open.spotify.com/episode/7mndp47AuyUpLs1veoU6oE
I can't listen to the pod right now, but I will later. Thanks for sharing it.
I have come around some on my views on Penix. I actually could see him fitting well with a team picking later in the first round that already has somewhat of an established offense. Minnesota comes to mind. Seattle possibly as well, depending on their long term views on Geno.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 04, 2024, 09:29:38 AMI can't listen to the pod right now, but I will later. Thanks for sharing it.
I have come around some on my views on Penix. I actually could see him fitting well with a team picking later in the first round that already has somewhat of an established offense. Minnesota comes to mind. Seattle possibly as well, depending on their long term views on Geno.
If you back up, you can also hear his and his son's take on JJ McCarthy
I will say that I have probably seen only 2-3 Washington games this year. But every time I turn it on, the kid is making picturesque passes into tight windows. Multiple times a game I think while the ball is in the air: "oh, the defense will have a shot at it"... then it drops over the defender's shoulder into the waiting arms of the receiver. His mechanics are unsightly to say the least, but Rivers succeeded with a similar motion so it's not out of the question. And while he has injured his ACL twice, he has also been healthy for two seasons. I still don't know if I want the Giants taking him given the age and health considerations, but it would not surprise me at all if he plays well in the NFL given his arm talent.
Buyer beware.
6th year player playing with one of the Best OLs in the nation and the best WR corps in the nation. Injury prone with limited mobility. And the best thrower ever? Holy good god. Not even close.
I remember when Josh Rosen had similar accolades.
I just have this feeling if we get Pennix with #8 overall that his body would fall apart behind our OL.
The only concern I see with him is that injury history. He played well behind a poor OL at Indiana and made them competitive in the Big Ten. His motion is weird, but as we have seen it has not caused an issue and I doubt it would at the next level.
As for calling him the best thrower he has ever seen, I think recency bias can come into play.
I dont care about his throwing motion. At the end of the day, it's simple. Do his passes end up in the hands of the pass catchers 2/3s of the time or greater?
Calvin Peete was a 1970s golfer who could not straighten one of his arms. As a result he had a really unorthodox golf swing. I think he still holds the stat for fairways in regulation. He got it done. So does Penix.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 04, 2024, 10:44:36 AMI dont care about his throwing motion. At the end of the day, it's simple. Do his passes end up in the hands of the pass catchers 2/3s of the time or greater?
Calvin Peete was a 1970s golfer who could not straighten one of his arms. As a result he had a really unorthodox golf swing. I think he still holds the stat for fairways in regulation. He got it done. So does Penix.
What is more important than his form is the fact that he puts great RPMs on the ball, which certainly helps his passes cut through the fickle Meadowlands winds.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 04, 2024, 10:48:08 AMWhat is more important than his form is the fact that he puts great RPMs on the ball, which certainly helps his passes cut through the fickle Meadowlands winds.
Yes Rich. Great point. Time to think like Moneyball. Results not the way he looks.
Penix footwork for a 6th year college QB is horrible.
Quote from: AYM on January 04, 2024, 10:03:39 AMI remember when Josh Rosen had similar accolades.
I just have this feeling if we get Pennix with #8 overall that his body would fall apart behind our OL.
I'm not saying draft Penix at five but why does everyone assume that the offensive line will be just as bad next year. Do you not think management knows it has to improve and will make every effort to do so? Even if the first Giant pick is not an OL there are plenty of other picks and free agency to address the line.
Quote from: katkavage on January 04, 2024, 12:09:20 PMI'm not saying draft Penix at five but why does everyone assume that the offensive line will be just as bad next year. Do you not think management knows it has to improve and will make every effort to do so? Even if the first Giant pick is not an OL there are plenty of other picks and free agency to address the line.
Because the OL sucked last year, mgmt knew it had to improve and made efforts to do so, and the end result was the OL still sucked. And the year before. And the year before. And the year before ...
I will NEVER trust that this issue gets resolved until the issue is resolved in actuality based on a change in performance, culture, health, etc. Until then, the assumption will continue to be that this unit will drag this team - and whoever the QB is - down once again.
Quote from: katkavage on January 04, 2024, 12:09:20 PMI'm not saying draft Penix at five but why does everyone assume that the offensive line will be just as bad next year. Do you not think management knows it has to improve and will make every effort to do so? Even if the first Giant pick is not an OL there are plenty of other picks and free agency to address the line.
To answer the question in bold, because we are Giants fans. For over a decade assuming the O-line would be bad would be proven correct
Quote from: katkavage on January 04, 2024, 12:09:20 PMI'm not saying draft Penix at five but why does everyone assume that the offensive line will be just as bad next year. Do you not think management knows it has to improve and will make every effort to do so? Even if the first Giant pick is not an OL there are plenty of other picks and free agency to address the line.
I agree. There seems to be a view that a failure to use another top 10 pick on O line means the Giants aren't addressing the issue. They have two second round picks, one of which will be very early in the round and the other of which has a good chance of still being top 50 overall. They could use one or potentially both of those on O line. There are obviously other picks as well after those.
I appreciate that Neal looks like a bust and that OTs are hard to come by. IOLs however are available throughout the draft. You should certainly expect a quality front office to be able to find starting caliber IOLs in rounds 2-4 most years. Plenty of teams do. And not everyone with a good O line has two tackles that were both drafted in the top 10 or even first round. And obviously there is a free agent market for serviceable tackles in most offseasons.
The point of all this is just to say that folks who don't particularly want to use another top 7 pick on an O lineman aren't saying the O line doesn't need to be addressed. It does need to be significantly addressed. But failing to use another top 7 pick on O line does not negate significantly addressing the O line in the offseason.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 04, 2024, 12:44:00 PMI agree. There seems to be a view that a failure to use another top 10 pick on O line means the Giants aren't addressing the issue. They have two second round picks, one of which will be very early in the round and the other of which has a good chance of still being top 50 overall. They could use one or potentially both of those on O line. There are obviously other picks as well after those.
I appreciate that Neal looks like a bust and that OTs are hard to come by. IOLs however are available throughout the draft. You should certainly expect a quality front office to be able to find starting caliber IOLs in rounds 2-4 most years. Plenty of teams do. And not everyone with a good O line has two tackles that were both drafted in the top 10 or even first round. And obviously there is a free agent market for serviceable tackles in most offseasons.
The point of all this is just to say that folks who don't particularly want to use another top 7 pick on an O lineman aren't saying the O line doesn't need to be addressed. It does need to be significantly addressed. But failing to use another top 7 pick on O line does not negate significantly addressing the O line in the offseason.
I think some are just weary of this team being able to select the correct OL regardless of draft slot. The current regime has selected 3 OL in the 1st 3 rounds of the draft and none have showed much thus far. I am not saying, Neal, JMS and Ezeudu will never be good players, but as of now the results are not there.
I know JMS is a rookie and it can take guys a year to progress. I was as high on Neal as anyone and between injuries and poor play when on the field I have doubts now.
Bottom line is that this team keeps dumping resources into getting players and has yet to see any results. On the flip side, some OL who have left the team have gotten better on their new teams.
I certainly don't think a team needs to spend a 1st rounder on an IOL, but this teams has swung and missed in the 2nd, 3rd and subsequent rounds for years.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 04, 2024, 12:17:28 PMBecause the OL sucked last year, mgmt knew it had to improve and made efforts to do so, and the end result was the OL still sucked. And the year before. And the year before. And the year before ...
I will NEVER trust that this issue gets resolved until the issue is resolved in actuality based on a change in performance, culture, health, etc. Until then, the assumption will continue to be that this unit will drag this team - and whoever the QB is - down once again.
Then the Giants need new management... again.
Quote from: katkavage on January 04, 2024, 12:09:20 PMI'm not saying draft Penix at five but why does everyone assume that the offensive line will be just as bad next year. Do you not think management knows it has to improve and will make every effort to do so? Even if the first Giant pick is not an OL there are plenty of other picks and free agency to address the line.
It may seem like a pessimistic view but it's actually a positive one:
We're pretty positive that the line will not be fixed. =)) <:-P
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 04, 2024, 01:09:20 PMI think some are just weary of this team being able to select the correct OL regardless of draft slot. The current regime has selected 3 OL in the 1st 3 rounds of the draft and none have showed much thus far. I am not saying, Neal, JMS and Ezeudu will never be good players, but as of now the results are not there.
I know JMS is a rookie and it can take guys a year to progress. I was as high on Neal as anyone and between injuries and poor play when on the field I have doubts now.
Bottom line is that this team keeps dumping resources into getting players and has yet to see any results. On the flip side, some OL who have left the team have gotten better on their new teams.
I certainly don't think a team needs to spend a 1st rounder on an IOL, but this teams has swung and missed in the 2nd, 3rd and subsequent rounds for years.
Totally agree with that, but that's a different point from the one I was making.
I never gave Pennix much thought, but I watched the game the other night, and I was really impressed. He has a cannon for an arm, and his accuracy was pinpoint accurate. He can throw a 50 yd rope without throwing it a hundred feet in the air. His throws were smooth and effortless and reminded me of Warren Moon in his prime...and that's a huge compliment. Moon might be the least appreciated QB in history. Tremendous talent
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on January 04, 2024, 02:05:25 PMI never gave Pennix much thought, but I watched the game the other night, and I was really impressed. He has a cannon for an arm, and his accuracy was pinpoint accurate. He can throw a 50 yd rope without throwing it a hundred feet in the air. His throws were smooth and effortless and reminded me of Warren Moon in his prime...and that's a huge compliment. Moon might be the least appreciated QB in history. Tremendous talent
Couldn't agree more. I think Moon is one of the most underrated players in NFL history.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 04, 2024, 09:37:53 AMIf you back up, you can also hear his and his son's take on JJ McCarthy
His son said Kellen Mond was an elite quarterback and his darkhorse pick in the draft.
Not to get too far off topic, but regarding Warren Moon (who I agree was fantastic), how underrated can you be if you're in the HOF and were in on the first ballot? Also won the Walter Payton award, which is extremely prestigious.
He was a great quarterback, but I feel like he has always been considered that, hasn't he?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 04, 2024, 06:24:24 PMNot to get too far off topic, but regarding Warren Moon (who I agree was fantastic), how underrated can you be if you're in the HOF and were in on the first ballot? Also won the Walter Payton award, which is extremely prestigious.
He was a great quarterback, but I feel like he has always been considered that, hasn't he?
I think the die hard fans of football back in the 60's - 80's know it. The NFL knew what he was and hence the HOF induction in first ballot. Younger folks think of Brady, Rogers, Marino, Montana, Elway, the Manning boys, Rogers, and now Mahommes. As for me, I have a better memory of Roger Staubach, Dan Pastorini, Roman Gabriel, Bart Starr, Joe Namath, Ken Stabler, Jim Kelly, Dan Fouts, Johnny Unitas, and of course Warren Moon (who I personally watched him carve up the Bills and never forgot his arm...or the stadium shaking chanting "juice, juice" when OJ hit the field). I guess certain eras of my life I had more time to watch and study the game then in other eras. The 90's and early 00's had me beating out a living that took all my energies and worked a minimum of 70 hours a week and any free time was spent going to my kids' games, plays, recitals, etc. when I was in the states. I spent over 10 years living out of hotels and airports and often flew out before the weekend in order to save the company money. So there's a black hole in memory of football
Moon's first year in the NFL- he was 28(!). And he's still statistically dominant on the all-time lists...despite also playing when rules for passing were obviously much tougher. But think about that...if this dude had played those 6 more years in the NFL, where would he be in the conversation? And let's not even get into all of the unreal stereotypes around black QBs that this guy had to push through.
I say one of the most underrated because his name rarely, if ever, comes up when folks discuss best QBs of all time. I think Moon and Brees are the two best throwers of the football that have ever played the game, personally.
I like a lot of Qbs more than Penix or Nix. Remember with Penix and Nix, they are almost 24 playing 18-20 year Olds, they've had almost 5 years of college football compared to a lot of guys they play.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 04, 2024, 08:52:59 PMI like a lot of Qbs more than Penix or Nix. Remember with Penix and Nix, they are almost 24 playing 18-20 year Olds, they've had almost 5 years of college football compared to a lot of guys they play.
Penix was good in his earlier years, just has the injury problems. He made Indiana competitive.
https://clutchpoints.com/nfl-rumors-several-teams-worried-michael-penix-jr-s-medical-eval-so-bad-undraftable
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Quote from: Uni on January 05, 2024, 01:40:55 AMhttps://clutchpoints.com/nfl-rumors-several-teams-worried-michael-penix-jr-s-medical-eval-so-bad-undraftable
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At this point in time, it's highly unlikely teams have done their medical evaluations. So when you hear comments like this one, you can be pretty confident it's misinformation being put out in the hope they can land the prospect (because he drops).
Quote"He won't even be on our board. That medical is going to be so bad that we're going to sub-board him. The only way we'll touch him is when there's no risk," Yahoo Sports' Charles Robinson says, paraphrasing sentiment he's heard around the NFL.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 05, 2024, 09:10:59 AMAt this point in time, it's highly unlikely teams have done their medical evaluations. So when you hear comments like this one, you can be pretty confident it's misinformation being put out in the hope they can land the prospect (because he drops).
Totally agree. They should be more subtle with their smoke-screens. If I'm an NFL team that's interested in Penix, and I read something like this, it just makes me think he's going to be even harder to get. Putting something like this out a few days after the guy has an historic game is idiotic from a strategy standpoint.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 05, 2024, 09:55:09 AMTotally agree. They should be more subtle with their smoke-screens. If I'm an NFL team that's interested in Penix, and I read something like this, it just makes me think he's going to be even harder to get. Putting something like this out a few days after the guy has an historic game is idiotic from a strategy standpoint.
I will expand further on my comment.
Teams get their first medical reports from the Combine (many teams and execs will tell you the medicals are the most important thing from the Combine). Teams will send their doctors, who will examine all the prospects and generate reports to be shared with all the teams.
Beyond that, teams will have visits, which often involve extra medical examinations. Based on the Combine data, you will often have the team's medical people reaching out to prospect's teams and care providers for more information if there are medical concerns, and there are also some players, after so many weeks, who are brought back for a second Combine medical.
In terms of GMs and Scouts, they don't really get involved in the medicals. They work independently of the medical people and work to generate the boards. After all the medical information has been gathered, there is usually a meeting with the people scouting and will be doing the drafting and the medical people. It is at this point in time boards are adjusted. I have heard former GMs lament how they dread the medical day because they remember losing a prospect (because he was removed from the board) who they liked.
All I can tell you about ACL repairs is a lifetime of swelling and achiness. The swelling makes the knee stiff. With two ACL surgeries Penix may have an NFL career filled with those moments after certain hits and may miss games.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 05, 2024, 10:58:22 AMAll I can tell you about ACL repairs is a lifetime of swelling and achiness. The swelling makes the knee stiff. With two ACL surgeries Penix may have an NFL career filled with those moments after certain hits and may miss games.
Medical science has come a long way in terms of how they treat torn ACLs. When did you get yours repaired?
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 05, 2024, 11:00:26 AMMedical science has come a long way in terms of how they treat torn ACLs. When did you get yours repaired?
1990 for one knee and 2007 for the other knee.
I agree Rich that the procedure continues to advance along with the rehab. That said, the joint is still prone from what I've read recently with continued periodic fluid buildup. I dont think they've solved that problem.
If the Giants draft Penix they better keep Slayton around. Him and Hyatt would be beneficiaries of drafting Penix as Penix had a beautifully accurate deep ball.
Quote from: sooners56 on January 05, 2024, 12:05:24 PMIf the Giants draft Penix they better keep Slayton around. Him and Hyatt would be beneficiaries of drafting Penix as Penix had a beautifully accurate deep ball.
I couldn't help but notice his throws. Perfect spirals, no ducks, doesn't need a ton of height to throw it 50 - 60 yards. Hence, my previous comparison to Warren Moon, who threw - perhaps - the most beautiful ball I've ever seen thrown. The better QBs can throw a ball 60 yards. When they used to have the "QB Challenge" from 1993 to 2005, some QBs threw over 70 yards. Cunningham topped the list at 76 yds https://www.topendsports.com/sport/gridiron/longest-throw.htm Judging by what I saw in Pennix throws, he could match that
According to an article in the
New York Times, Moon has been documented throwing the ball 80 yds several times (just distance, not passer to receiver in a game) because he put so much spin on the ball and also used his entire body to uncurl from his feet to his head in order to load up his arm (the arm being the least important part of throwing a football...well, except the hand that puts the spin on the ball being part of the arm)
https://www.nfl.com/videos/huddle-flow-warren-moon-shares-how-he-could-throw-a-perfect-spiral
Seems like Penix will fall out of the 1st round as teams will be scared of the slot value and 5th year option. He probably needs to go to the a perfect situation where he has fast receivers and a great OL. In other words he is not an option for the Giants because of the later. Backing up someone like Prescott or Mahomes would be where he could wind up. Maybe the Vikings to groom him to take over for Cousins at some point.
Quote from: TDToomer on January 05, 2024, 01:30:56 PMSeems like Penix will fall out of the 1st round as teams will be scared of the slot value and 5th year option. He probably needs to go to the a perfect situation where he has fast receivers and a great OL. In other words he is not an option for the Giants because of the later. Backing up someone like Prescott or Mahomes would be where he could wind up. Maybe the Vikings to groom him to take over for Cousins at some point.
At this point, I really don't see any reason to think Penix will not be drafted in round one.
Quote"I don't know if I've ever seen a college kid throw the ball better in a game than what I saw from Penix," ESPN analyst Dan Orlovsky said Tuesday on the "Pat McAfee Show." "It was just perfect throw after perfect throw."
Penix, the Heisman runner-up, was so good against Texas that he had many rethinking their initial impressions of UW's left-handed QB.
That included some NFL talent evaluators, one of whom said he could see Penix emerge as a top-10 prospect entering the NFL draft in April.
"I have him high on my board. Very high," one AFC scout told The Times.
Longtime NFL executive Randy Mueller agreed.
"He is much more polished than people realized," Mueller said in an interview this past week. "He's asked to do a lot in that offense — all the shifts and motions and protections. And all that stuff he's going to have to do in the NFL, so it's good stuff for scouts to see."
https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/uw-husky-football/michael-penix-jr-rising-very-high-on-nfl-draft-boards-after-dazzling-sugar-bowl-performance/
1st point: I love the way Pennix throws the ball, but even more than that, the way he competes. He's persevered through a lot of adversity and is now on the verge of a National Championship.
A lot to like here!
2nd point: addressing the OL conversation.
Just as a team must build a culture to grow into a consistent winner....the same applies to position groups. It is my opinion that we have drafted and even signed some very good talent to begin building an offensive line.
But like the team, you put a solid player who needs to develop next to a player with bad habits...then the OL Coach is either not holding everyone accountable and/or not developing the player properly...it's going to appear that this is a talentless group when in reality it just needs a better culture and another piece or two.
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Quote from: MightyGiants on January 05, 2024, 01:46:42 PMAt this point, I really don't see any reason to think Penix will not be drafted in round one.
I'm less convinced of that. Two ACLs on the same knee and two separate shoulder injuries before he was even 22? I appreciate one can point out that he has had two healthy, highly productive years back to back, and I would agree that that strengthens his case considerably, but at an absolute minimum it seems fair to say that, so far, he appears to be a very injury-prone player. If I'm thinking about drafting him, I'd want some sort of discount on him relative to where he would be going if he hadn't had all these injuries. I know you're familiar with the "hurt guys stay hurt" adage. Maybe he'll be the exception to that rule, but am I spending a top 10 or top 15 pick to find out? I don't know that I would. It would take some convincing from unbiased medical professionals who have examined him to get me to even consider that.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 05, 2024, 02:25:21 PMI'm less convinced of that. Two ACLs on the same knee and two separate shoulder injuries before he was even 22? I appreciate one can point out that he has had two healthy, highly productive years back to back, and I would agree that that strengthens his case considerably, but at an absolute minimum it seems fair to say that, so far, he appears to be a very injury-prone player. If I'm thinking about drafting him, I'd want some sort of discount on him relative to where he would be going if he hadn't had all these injuries. I know you're familiar with the "hurt guys stay hurt" adage. Maybe he'll be the exception to that rule, but am I spending a top 10 or top 15 pick to find out? I don't know that I would. It would take some convincing from unbiased medical professionals who have examined him to get me to even consider that.
I appreciate the hurt guys get hurt axiom and agree with it. I am also mindful that there are guys who did shake the injury bug after an early rough start (like Phil Simms, for example) who go on to have long, productive careers.
I laid out how the medical side of things would go. I am still early in the QB evaluation process (waiting to see what our final draft position will be). At this point, it seems like Penix has demonstrated elite-level talent and ability.
With 32 teams, unless something serious turns up in his medical exams, it's highly unlikely every team will take them off their board or lower his draft position by round(s) because of medical. Some will, but not all.
Seems to me there are way too many teams needing or in desperate need of a QB that they will just let a QB prospect with elite abilities just pass them by.
Remember RB Todd Gurley tore his ACL late in his college career, and he was still drafted 10th overall and at the position of RB. Do you really think none of the teams in the NFL would purchase a first-round lottery ticket at the most important position in the NFL?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 05, 2024, 02:25:21 PMI'm less convinced of that. Two ACLs on the same knee and two separate shoulder injuries before he was even 22? I appreciate one can point out that he has had two healthy, highly productive years back to back, and I would agree that that strengthens his case considerably, but at an absolute minimum it seems fair to say that, so far, he appears to be a very injury-prone player. If I'm thinking about drafting him, I'd want some sort of discount on him relative to where he would be going if he hadn't had all these injuries. I know you're familiar with the "hurt guys stay hurt" adage. Maybe he'll be the exception to that rule, but am I spending a top 10 or top 15 pick to find out? I don't know that I would. It would take some convincing from unbiased medical professionals who have examined him to get me to even consider that.
Consider Tua who was drafted 5th overall and his college injury history
— March 2018: During a spring practice before his first full season as Alabama's starter, Tagovailoa hits a lineman's helmet while throwing a pass and suffers a broken left index finger. The injury requires a quick surgery, but he misses no practice time.
— October 2018: Tagovailoa tweaks his knee during a win over Missouri. It's later revealed that he suffered a knee sprain, but he misses no time and is back in the lineup the following week against Tennessee.
— November 2018: During a late-season game against Mississippi State, Tagovailoa in the third quarter takes a hit to his left quad, the same leg of his knee injury a month prior. He sits out the rest of the game, an Alabama win, and returns the following week against The Citadel.
— December 2018: In the fourth quarter of the SEC championship game against Georgia, Alabama left tackle Jonah Williams accidentally steps on Tagovailoa's right ankle and causes an injury. Tagovailoa sits out the rest of the game and eventually has a tightrope procedure performed on his ankle so he can return for the College Football Playoff.
— October 2019: Tagovailoa suffers another right ankle injury, this time a high ankle sprain during a win over Tennessee. He again opts to undergo a tightrope procedure for a quick recovery. He misses one game (a win over Arkansas) before returning to start in Alabama's loss to LSU.
— November 2019: Toward the end of the first half of a blowout win against Mississippi State, Tagovailoa suffers the nasty hip injury that prematurely ends his college career.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 05, 2024, 02:35:28 PMDo you really think none of the teams in the NFL would purchase a first-round lottery ticket at the most important position in the NFL?
I didn't say that or anything like that. I said I am less convinced, which means I am uncertain. I also said I would need some convincing about his health prospects to take him top 10 or top 15.
Penix could certainly go in the first round, but I am not positive that will happen. Teams might get spooked about the injuries. I saw mock after mock predicting Ojulari to go in the 12-22 type range in the 2021 draft, and he fell to the mid 2nd. Like Penix, his injury history was from two years prior, and the most recent two seasons weren't an issue. I'm not saying the two situations are in any way identical, but the point is that his slide happened because of past injuries. I just wouldn't take anything for granted about draft order.
If Penix goes something like 15th I won't be surprised. I also won't be that surprised if he falls out of the top 25 or even into the second round. These things aren't always that easy to predict.
There is also more data to be collected, including the game on Monday night, the combine, pro day, etc. I'm not ready to make predictions of who will go exactly where.
Quote from: TDToomer on January 05, 2024, 01:30:56 PMSeems like Penix will fall out of the 1st round as teams will be scared of the slot value and 5th year option. He probably needs to go to the a perfect situation where he has fast receivers and a great OL. In other words he is not an option for the Giants because of the later. Backing up someone like Prescott or Mahomes would be where he could wind up. Maybe the Vikings to groom him to take over for Cousins at some point.
Not only would the Giants need a "great o-line", but they'd need a "great RT" because Penix is left-handed and the right side is his blind side
I like Penix alot
Hes a winner, magical, ultra quick release, incredible touch. Release so quick and ball speed so fast, I needed to see the replay to see the ball
I dont know why but as I watched that game (quite exciting to the end)
I thought Penix had a "Jim Brown" air about him. Not that they play/played the same position- just the power, confidence, strength etc
He's that good. I'll take him, gladly if he is still on the board
After that exhibition I expect he will be amongst the 1st 3 QBs picked
Former GM Randy Mueller was asked on his latest podcast what draft slot a team wanting to draft Pennix would need to be in. His answer, "top dozen"
Of course, this was qualified with Pennix passing a physical. This means they don't find any degenerative conditions in his knee or shoulders.
When Phil Simms calls Pennix the best college thrower he has ever seen, it is for him a statement of fact. For a lot us, apparently, it's a can of worms; for some, a wad in the crack of the ass. And so, that does make me think that I must have missed the part where one or both Simms promoted the idea that the Giants should draft Michael Penix if they can possibly do so.
Alright, so they didn't, which I guess leaves it us to determine the degree to which spiral accuracy and precision may be subject to discounts re age and potential degeneration once we are in possession of pre-Draft medical prognosis. And then there are those rising and falling whispers from the 'perts, not to mention some GM who may do the unthinkable.
Oh! why does this have to be so hard? ~X( =))
Cheers!
Penix is not great throwing out of the pocket on the run. He's also not particularly mobile. Playing behind our OL will not utilize his best attributes. Other more mobile QBs may survive it better.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 07, 2024, 02:17:28 PMPenix is not great throwing out of the pocket on the run. He's also not particularly mobile. Playing behind our OL will not utilize his best attributes. Other more mobile QBs may survive it better.
Penix isn't a running QB, but he is mobile with very good pocket awareness and the ability to avoid the rush.
That's why PFF has his pressure converted to sack rate at just 8%.
Compare
C. Willians 23.2%
D. Maye 19.6%
J. Daniels 20.2%
B. Nix 7.7%
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 07, 2024, 03:52:32 PMPenix isn't a running QB, but he is mobile with very good pocket awareness and the ability to avoid the rush.
That's why PFF has his pressure converted to sack rate at just 8%.
Compare
C. Willians 23.2%
D. Maye 19.6%
J. Daniels 20.2%
B. Nix 7.7%
When I've watched him, he does not look all that mobile to me. His completion % plummets.
I'll say this about Penix:
Giants fans have a tendency to complain about the frequency of injuries on this team. If we draft Penix and we have another RG3 situation on our hands, we cannot (with a straight face at least) act like we're snake-bit or deserving of any sympathy. Penix has had a ton of major injuries. He is a risky pick because of this injury history, and if we draft him, we will have knowingly accepted that risk. I understand that his last two years have been healthy, but that was true with Ojulari as well, and he dropped precipitously in the draft because of his injury past.
I'm not saying we should or shouldn't draft Penix. Just that anyone who advocates strongly for it will have zero ground to stand on (as far as acting surprised or complaining) if/when he gets significantly hurt as a pro. The history is right there in black and white for everyone to see. Draft Penix, and you may have an elite pro QB on your hands. You also may have another Daniel Jones situation on your hands, and in the case of this guy, the health red flags are readily apparent.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 07, 2024, 04:51:03 PMWhen I've watched him, he does not look all that mobile to me. His completion % plummets.
PFF has grades for QB prospects when under pressure
C. Williams- 39.1
D. Maye- 57.8
J. Daniels- 63.0
Penix- 70.7
Bo Nix- 91.2
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 07, 2024, 05:07:08 PMPFF has grades for QB prospects when under pressure
C. Williams- 39.1
D. Maye- 57.8
J. Daniels- 63.0
Penix- 70.7
Bo Nix- 91.2
I can only by what my eyes see. What PFF calls pressure may or may not be how I see it.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 07, 2024, 05:05:15 PMI'll say this about Penix:
Giants fans have a tendency to complain about the frequency of injuries on this team. If we draft Penix and we have another RG3 situation on our hands, we cannot (with a straight face at least) act like we're snake-bit or deserving of any sympathy. Penix has had a ton of major injuries. He is a risky pick because of this injury history, and if we draft him, we will have knowingly accepted that risk. I understand that his last two years have been healthy, but that was true with Ojulari as well, and he dropped precipitously in the draft because of his injury past.
I'm not saying we should or shouldn't draft Penix. Just that anyone who advocates strongly for it will have zero ground to stand on (as far as acting surprised or complaining) if/when he gets significantly hurt as a pro. The history is right there in black and white for everyone to see. Draft Penix, and you may have an elite pro QB on your hands. You also may have another Daniel Jones situation on your hands, and in the case of this guy, the health red flags are readily apparent.
Jeff,
Ojulari is a poor comparison. Here was his history prior to the draft
"Checked in on the reports about Azeez Ojulari's knee," tweeted Duggan. "He tore his ACL as a high school senior and redshirted his first year at Georgia. But he didn't miss a game in his two active seasons at UGA.
One injury does not mean a player is injury-prone. The injury questions about Ojulari involve questions about the knee injury that resulted in arthritis in his knee. To date Ojulari's knee has not had issues with arthritis.
To consider drafting Pennix, he would have to pass a thorough physical that shows his knee and shoulders are sound. If he passes that physical, one needs to weigh the four significant injuries in his first four seasons with his two straight, healthy seasons.
I am not going to argue that history is a reason for concern. However, as was already mentioned, Pennix is a mobile QB rather than a running QB. Not being a running quarterback does mean he is less likely to get injured. Pennix's ability to avoid the rush should also help him stay healthy.
You mention RG3; he had only one injury (an ACL) in college, so it's not like he was considered an injury-prone prospect.
Just remember the same argument you are using against Pennix, applied to Phil Simms in his early NFL career. The Giants held on to Simms and were rewarded with two SB trophies (although Simms was injured in the second Super Bowl run, he spotted the team 11 wins before getting hurt.
With the Giants' likely draft slot, Pennix may be the team's only option for an elite QB prospect.
I'm all for drafting him if our scouts and GM believe he has a very good chance of being an elite pro. Lord knows we desperately need a good QB on this team. I'm just not going pretend there isn't a heightened risk factor with this player. Two ACL tears on the same knee by age 22 (plus two separate shoulder injuries) isn't kids' stuff. I'm fully supportive of taking a calculated risk if our front office thinks the upside justifies it. Taking calculated risks is what the draft is about in many respects. But if he becomes a Giant, and in the first year he goes down with some significant injury, am I going to be shocked and feel like we just can't catch a break? No, I am not.
Didn't he also have surgery surgery? Not sure if it was his throwing or non-throwing shoulder.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 07, 2024, 06:10:49 PMDidn't he also have surgery surgery? Not sure if it was his throwing or non-throwing shoulder.
From CBS Sports:
"A series of injuries at Indiana ground down the quarterback mentally and physically. Before he transferred to Washington in December 2021, Penix had already suffered season-ending ACL injuries (2018, 2022) as well as a clavicle injury that required surgery (2019) and a dislocated shoulder (2021)"
I am unsure if it was his throwing shoulder or not.
so his bad luck is behind him
I was incredibly impressed by Pennix
Film Room: Michael Penix Jr Vs Texas: All Passes
If you want to see Penix against a very good D, watch tomorrow's CFP final.
Dr. Jessica Flynn joined Phil Perry on a new Next Pats Podcast to share her insight, starting with Penix's two shoulder injuries.
"The sternoclavicular (SC) joint injury, it's an emergency when it happens because there's a lot of important blood vessels and things like that behind that joint. But once the athlete recovers, particularly a quarterback in the non-throwing hand, much less of a concern. Even if there's a little bit of instability afterwards, much less of a concern," Flynn said.
"The AC joint injury, we've seen how many quarterbacks go out with this injury just this season alone. (Indianapolis Colts QB) Anthony Richardson had a pretty high-grade injury. It's a little bit more of a concern, but the fact that he's able to throw after that injury is much more reassuring. So any time from that injury is going to help to reassure everyone he's throwing fine, it's not affecting his form."
Unsurprisingly, Flynn expressed far more concern over Penix Jr.'s right ACL.
"The knee issues are concerning unfortunately for him. When one ACL happens, that's a pretty common injury. But when you start to see a second, there are a few different concerns," Flynn said. "One is, is he just at risk for having these really high-level injuries in general? There really hasn't been found any kind of gene or anything that associates Achilles, ACL tears, but a lot of researchers think there is something that links them, and we do tend to see these things happen sort of in groups in professional athletes. So that's kind of number one.
"But number two is more just that damage, that added damage to that one knee. And so, I think the important thing for him is knowing, is this knee stable? It's been reconstructed multiple times, so you're going to want the team to get a really good examination of him. Obviously, they're going to want to see imaging. And the second issue is, OK, now he's had two injuries, we know one ACL injury can lead to some arthritis, so is there something degenerative going on already in this young quarterback at the start of his career? Those are the two big red flags."
Nowadays, many athletes return even stronger after undergoing ACL surgery. The recovery process is quicker, and the injury isn't commonly considered a potential career-ender as it was in years past.
However, as Flynn notes, Penix Jr. tearing the same ACL twice indicates a potentially chronic issue that other athletes have been unable to play through long-term.
"This is the kind of injury that does end careers, unfortunately, but it doesn't happen overnight. Yes, athletes can play through this until the day when they can't. And we've seen other quarterbacks in the NFL who have had significant osteoarthritis in their knees play through it. And honestly, we didn't really hear much about it. ...
"It's not just one ACL, it's two ACLs. So now he's had two ACL (injuries) that put him at risk of an ACL injury in the other knee. And we've seen athletes go through this. I mean, we know (former Patriots wide receiver) Malcolm Mitchell's history. He really struggled. Obviously, it's a different position, but he really struggled with ACL injuries. And then, you know, I have a good friend, Jake Butt, played tight end at Michigan, looked like he was going to be a star in the NFL and just could not stay on the field because of the ACL injuries and secondary arthritis in the knees."
https://sports.yahoo.com/pats-chance-michael-penix-jr-194751147.html
They have a bigger issue to deal with in terms of Jones and his big cap hit coming up and how that may affect any decision they can or will make re a QB in the '24 Draft. As for Penix, he means little more than an excuse for someone to get ahead of his skis. Except maybe for Phil Simms, Hmm, Yeah, Maybe, Yathink, Huh? Pooobbbbffff!
Cheers!
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 07, 2024, 07:19:09 PMDr. Jessica Flynn joined Phil Perry on a new Next Pats Podcast to share her insight, starting with Penix's two shoulder injuries.
"The sternoclavicular (SC) joint injury, it's an emergency when it happens because there's a lot of important blood vessels and things like that behind that joint. But once the athlete recovers, particularly a quarterback in the non-throwing hand, much less of a concern. Even if there's a little bit of instability afterwards, much less of a concern," Flynn said.
"The AC joint injury, we've seen how many quarterbacks go out with this injury just this season alone. (Indianapolis Colts QB) Anthony Richardson had a pretty high-grade injury. It's a little bit more of a concern, but the fact that he's able to throw after that injury is much more reassuring. So any time from that injury is going to help to reassure everyone he's throwing fine, it's not affecting his form."
Unsurprisingly, Flynn expressed far more concern over Penix Jr.'s right ACL.
"The knee issues are concerning unfortunately for him. When one ACL happens, that's a pretty common injury. But when you start to see a second, there are a few different concerns," Flynn said. "One is, is he just at risk for having these really high-level injuries in general? There really hasn't been found any kind of gene or anything that associates Achilles, ACL tears, but a lot of researchers think there is something that links them, and we do tend to see these things happen sort of in groups in professional athletes. So that's kind of number one.
"But number two is more just that damage, that added damage to that one knee. And so, I think the important thing for him is knowing, is this knee stable? It's been reconstructed multiple times, so you're going to want the team to get a really good examination of him. Obviously, they're going to want to see imaging. And the second issue is, OK, now he's had two injuries, we know one ACL injury can lead to some arthritis, so is there something degenerative going on already in this young quarterback at the start of his career? Those are the two big red flags."
Nowadays, many athletes return even stronger after undergoing ACL surgery. The recovery process is quicker, and the injury isn't commonly considered a potential career-ender as it was in years past.
However, as Flynn notes, Penix Jr. tearing the same ACL twice indicates a potentially chronic issue that other athletes have been unable to play through long-term.
"This is the kind of injury that does end careers, unfortunately, but it doesn't happen overnight. Yes, athletes can play through this until the day when they can't. And we've seen other quarterbacks in the NFL who have had significant osteoarthritis in their knees play through it. And honestly, we didn't really hear much about it. ...
"It's not just one ACL, it's two ACLs. So now he's had two ACL (injuries) that put him at risk of an ACL injury in the other knee. And we've seen athletes go through this. I mean, we know (former Patriots wide receiver) Malcolm Mitchell's history. He really struggled. Obviously, it's a different position, but he really struggled with ACL injuries. And then, you know, I have a good friend, Jake Butt, played tight end at Michigan, looked like he was going to be a star in the NFL and just could not stay on the field because of the ACL injuries and secondary arthritis in the knees."
https://sports.yahoo.com/pats-chance-michael-penix-jr-194751147.html
I remember reading that one thing biomechanical engineers were exploring with ligament tears in the knees is the angle from the hip that the femur takes going into the knee joint followed by the angle out that the tibia and fibula take exiting the knee down to the ankle. Everybody has different angles because of different hip sizes and construction. These biomechanical engineers postulated that with the bones coming in at different angles and the resultant ligaments being at different angles for everybody, that people with certain bone and ligament angles (because of different hip build) may be more prone to tears of the ACL and other ligaments. That may be the case with Penix.
Sorry but one correction to the article is that he did not tear the same ligament as they don't repair the torn ligament by sewing it back together. Once it tears it's lost. They replace the torn ligament with either a patella tendon from the person or they use a cadaver's ligament. So technically they did not repair the same ligament.
Wonder if Phil wants to turn back time and say something different.
Quote from: JT39 on January 09, 2024, 11:13:50 AMWonder if Phil wants to turn back time and say something different.
I doubt it; Simms said his impression was based on what he saw from Pennix all season, not just the playoff game. I doubt a single game will sway his views signficantly
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 11:19:43 AMI doubt it; Simms said his impression was based on what he saw from Pennix all season, not just the playoff game. I doubt a single game will sway his views signficantly
Trust me - Penix deficiencies have been noticeable all year. He throws a great deep ball but struggles in many areas.
People are wow'd by the big plays and tend to forget the simple ones that are missed.
Quote from: JT39 on January 09, 2024, 11:47:10 AMTrust me - Penix deficiencies have been noticeable all year. He throws a great deep ball but struggles in many areas.
People are wow'd by the big plays and tend to forget the simple ones that are missed.
I think it's worth noting Simms called him the "greatest college thrower" he has ever seen, not the greatest QB.
Quote from: JT39 on January 09, 2024, 11:13:50 AMWonder if Phil wants to turn back time and say something different.
He said he is the best thrower. He did not say he is the best QB.
Quote from: JT39 on January 09, 2024, 11:13:50 AMWonder if Phil wants to turn back time and say something different.
Phil couldn't make the latest episode of the Complete Simms podcast. He did give notes to his son and he did address your "wonder". After seeing Pennix throw for over 9000 yards the last two seasons, he wasn't going to change his views after one game against the best team he had ever faced. That said, Simms did list a few issues (you can hear on the podcast) Pennix has that will be problems in the NFL if he doesn't clean them up.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2024, 11:06:27 AMPhil couldn't make the latest episode of the Complete Simms podcast. He did give notes to his son and he did address your "wonder". After seeing Pennix throw for over 9000 yards the last two seasons, he wasn't going to change his views after one game against the best team he had ever faced. That said, Simms did list a few issues (you can hear on the podcast) Pennix has that will be problems in the NFL if he doesn't clean them up.
Penix is a steal
Go gettem
Losing to Michigan is not his fault
They were just a better team
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2024, 11:06:27 AMPhil couldn't make the latest episode of the Complete Simms podcast. He did give notes to his son and he did address your "wonder". After seeing Pennix throw for over 9000 yards the last two seasons, he wasn't going to change his views after one game against the best team he had ever faced. That said, Simms did list a few issues (you can hear on the podcast) Pennix has that will be problems in the NFL if he doesn't clean them up.
I think those problems have been consistent with his career. His footwork and mechanics are terrible.
His arm is very strong and he does make some nice throws but some of those you won't get away with at the NFL level.
Quote from: JT39 on January 11, 2024, 12:06:09 PMI think those problems have been consistent with his career. His footwork and mechanics are terrible.
His arm is very strong and he does make some nice throws but some of those you won't get away with at the NFL level.
He made some throws in the Texas game that were magical
Lets put it this way, he made throws that Jones could only dream about
Nothing wrong with his pocket presence and footwork. Walter Football praised
his footwork
He would immediately be the best QB on our roster in my opinion
his velocity, spin and accuracy are phenominal
Pass(no pun intended). His age, and injury history are big red flags for me. Did you see the way he came off the field holding his side/ribs? Michigan beat him up. What will happen in the NFL? I want a QB to last 10 years, not 10 minutes. We already have Jones who can't stay on the field.
There have been a lot of great throwers who never made it as NFL QBs.
Quote from: BluesCruz on January 11, 2024, 11:32:57 AMPenix is a steal
Go gettem
Losing to Michigan is not his fault
They were just a better team
I like Penix, but let's be fair here: he was AWFUL in the game against Michigan. He clearly doesn't get all of the blame, but he gets a decent chunk of it. He was not good at all, including on a number of passing plays where the pressure was minimal to moderate. He missed wide open receivers on multiple occasions. His accuracy was dreadful.
Quote from: BluesCruz on January 11, 2024, 11:32:57 AMPenix is a steal
Go gettem
Losing to Michigan is not his fault
They were just a better team
I disagree. He looked rattled to me and his overall posture wasn't inspiring in my opinion
Quote from: Trench on January 11, 2024, 01:57:59 PMI disagree. He looked rattled to me and his overall posture wasn't inspiring in my opinion
Yes I agree. He would be a rookie, they do get rattled. As do the big guns in the NFL at times
Michigan was a steamroller
Against Texas he was cool as a cucumber