I was inspired by the 2023 Heroes and Goats threads to look at the season PFF grades for Schoen's two draft classes
2022
1 Kayvon Thibodeaux- 58.5
1 Evan Neal- 39.8
2 Wan'Dale Robinson- 66.4
3 Joshua Ezeudu- 42.4
3 Cordale Flott- 53.3
4 Daniel Bellinger- 49.1
4 Dane Belton- 51.7
5 Micah McFadden- 65.6
5 D.J. Davidson- 51.6
5 Marcus McKethan- 45.4
6 Darrian Beavers- Did not play
2023
1 Deonte Banks- 51.4
2 John Michael Schmitz- 41.4
3 Jalin Hyatt- 59.7
5 Eric Gray- 57.2
6 Tre Hawkins- 52.6
7 Jordon Riley- 33.1
7 Gervarrius Owen- did not play
(https://media.pff.com/2023/04/grade-scale-768x263.png)
How much of this is an indictment on coaching and how much on talent?
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 14, 2024, 10:16:27 AMHow much of this is an indictment on coaching and how much on talent?
It's hard to say. I will say that I personally believe that draft success is 50/50. Half of it is talent identification and acquisition and the other half is player development. The problem is that from the outside looking it, one is challenged to see what is causing/contributing to a prospect's success or failure.
So McFadden is the only one who graded as average. Every else was below average. The four OL picks were among the lowest grades.
The question of how much is on coaching and how much in talent is the right question to ask. It's ultimately up to Joe Schoen to figure it out and find a way to improve things.
I'm not really defending this, but how does the average PFF grade for rookies compare to say that of all fourth and fifth year players?
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 14, 2024, 10:26:12 AMSo McFadden is the only one who graded as average. Every else was below average. The four OL picks were among the lowest grades.
The question of how much is on coaching and how much in talent is the right question to ask. It's ultimately up to Joe Schoen to figure it out and find a way to improve things.
Robinson also earned himself an average grade
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 14, 2024, 10:32:24 AMI'm not really defending this, but how does the average PFF grade for rookies compare to say that of all fourth and fifth year players?
The grades for the 4th and 5th-year players are generally better. Of course, the longer you are on a team (or even in the league), the more filtering you see as poor players are let go and eventually find themselves out of the league or barely hanging on via the PS.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 14, 2024, 10:19:49 AMIt's hard to say. I will say that I personally believe that draft success is 50/50. Half of it is talent identification and acquisition and the other half is player development. The problem is that from the outside looking it, one is challenged to see what is causing/contributing to a prospect's success or failure.
What players that remained or left had an upswing in production from the Joe Judge regime to the Daboll team and as FA's that moved on? It's obvious Dex did as he was put in his proper position. Okereke had a better year here. Some of the O line who left faired better. Jones was up and down. Saquon, had injury issues. Slayton did better as did Engram away. The O line regressed with the exception of Thomas. Adoree went downhill. Can you compare the PFF Judge results total Offense and Total Defense to the two years of Daboll? Not player by player just total O&D separately for each of the four years. You can include special teams. Would we assume there are better players for Daboll? I think in some cases yes and some no.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 14, 2024, 10:48:24 AMWhat players that remained or left had an upswing in production from the Joe Judge regime to the Daboll team and as FA's that moved on? It's obvious Dex did as he was put in his proper position. Okereke had a better year here. Some of the O line who left faired better. Jones was up and down. Saquon, had injury issues. Slayton did better as did Engram away. The O line regressed with the exception of Thomas. Adoree went downhill. Can you compare the PFF Judge results total Offense and Total Defense to the two years of Daboll? Not player by player just total O&D separately for each of the four years. You can include special teams. Would we assume there are better players for Daboll? I think in some cases yes and some no.
This is from Len's article
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1mRQ9h.img?w=768&h=114&m=6)
I cannot for the life of me understand how Banks is rated so poorly. I thought he had an outstanding rookie season and should make all-rookie. I'm going by my eyeball test. He's had as good of a rookie season that Aaron Ross had in 07.
Quote from: TDToomer on January 14, 2024, 12:06:20 PMI cannot for the life of me understand how Banks is rated so poorly. I thought he had an outstanding rookie season and should make all-rookie. I'm going by my eyeball test. He's had as good of a rookie season that Aaron Ross had in 07.
Especially since Wink put him on an island all year long. PFF is often and enigma wrapped in a riddle.
Quote from: TDToomer on January 14, 2024, 12:06:20 PMI cannot for the life of me understand how Banks is rated so poorly. I thought he had an outstanding rookie season and should make all-rookie. I'm going by my eyeball test. He's had as good of a rookie season that Aaron Ross had in 07.
When it comes to CBs, one measure I value as much as their overall grade is the QB rating when targetted- 84.7
For some context, 84.7 is 5th best among rookie CBs.
His PFF grade is 17th among rookies.
One more insight on Banks
(https://i.imgur.com/W3Tpgoa.png)
Newsday's Kimberly Jones graded this years rookies
https://www.newsday.com/sports/football/giants/giants-rookies-nvk1nr0i
She gave Banks an A.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 14, 2024, 12:21:18 PMWhen it comes to CBs, one measure I value as much as their overall grade is the QB rating when targetted- 84.7
For some context, 84.7 is 5th best among rookie CBs.
His PFF grade is 17th among rookies.
17 rookie Cornerbacks qualified for a PFF rating? How many of them started 15 games?
Quote from: TDToomer on January 14, 2024, 12:30:28 PM17 rookie Cornerbacks qualified for a PFF rating? How many of them started 15 games?
The filter I used was 20% of 1146 snaps
If you want a higher threshold
50% of 1146 snaps- 9th (or last place)
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 14, 2024, 12:24:15 PMOne more insight on Banks
(https://i.imgur.com/W3Tpgoa.png)
Except for the Buffalo game and the second Dallas game he seemed to have his best ratings against the better teams.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 14, 2024, 10:19:49 AMIt's hard to say. I will say that I personally believe that draft success is 50/50. Half of it is talent identification and acquisition and the other half is player development. The problem is that from the outside looking it, one is challenged to see what is causing/contributing to a prospect's success or failure.
I think it's less on coaching and much more on finding talent that fits the NFL that shows in the players performance and stats in college play, or for different reasons may not have had a chance to show itself. 80/20 imo
Safe to say PFF didn't like Schoens 2 drafts! I'd have to say I agree with PFF. The drafts just haven't been good enough. I won't fault Schoen for the Thibs and Neal pick as those seemed like grand slam picks. GM is a tough job it seems.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 14, 2024, 10:11:13 AMI was inspired by the 2023 Heroes and Goats threads to look at the season PFF grades for Schoen's two draft classes
2022
1 Kayvon Thibodeaux- 58.5
1 Evan Neal- 39.8
2 Wan'Dale Robinson- 66.4
3 Joshua Ezeudu- 42.4
3 Cordale Flott- 53.3
4 Daniel Bellinger- 49.1
4 Dane Belton- 51.7
5 Micah McFadden- 65.6
5 D.J. Davidson- 51.6
5 Marcus McKethan- 45.4
6 Darrian Beavers- Did not play
2023
1 Deonte Banks- 51.4
2 John Michael Schmitz- 41.4
3 Jalin Hyatt- 59.7
5 Eric Gray- 57.2
6 Tre Hawkins- 52.6
7 Jordon Riley- 33.1
7 Gervarrius Owen- did not play
(https://media.pff.com/2023/04/grade-scale-768x263.png)
I take ratings with a grain of salt but was JMS and Banks that bad? Even some others seem a bit low.
Also how much is that on the QB ?
I mean russel.wilson was one of the most sacked QB
What would the pff ratings be on those lines
Our lined played better when taylor was in the games
Our offense then will not put our drefense better
Quote from: ralphpal1 on January 15, 2024, 11:21:19 AMAlso how much is that on the QB ?
I mean russel.wilson was one of the most sacked QB
What would the pff ratings be on those lines
Our lined played better when taylor was in the games
Our offense then will not put our drefense better
The fact that Neal, Ezeudu, and McKethan have looked awful and JMS below average has absolutely nothing to do with Daniel Jones. It's amazing the lengths to which some fans go to use DJ as a scapegoat for everything.
Neal was beaten like a drum all season long due to his terrible footwork, slow recognition, and poor technique. This has nothing to do with the QB.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 15, 2024, 11:32:20 AMThe fact that Neal, Ezeudu, and McKethan have looked awful and JMS below average has absolutely nothing to do with Daniel Jones. It's amazing the lengths to which some fans go to use DJ as a scapegoat for everything.
Neal was beaten like a drum all season long due to his terrible footwork, slow recognition, and poor technique. This has nothing to do with the QB.
The Giants have poor eyes for Oline talent.. they have to make changes there.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 15, 2024, 11:32:20 AMThe fact that Neal, Ezeudu, and McKethan have looked awful and JMS below average has absolutely nothing to do with Daniel Jones. It's amazing the lengths to which some fans go to use DJ as a scapegoat for everything.
Neal was beaten like a drum all season long due to his terrible footwork, slow recognition, and poor technique. This has nothing to do with the QB.
The most damning issue with Jones is that other, dramatically lower paid QBs on this team were more effective than he was behind the same line.
Even if Taylor were about the same as Jones, that wouldn't have been a good look at all. But he was in fact demonstrably better. There is simply no getting around or sugarcoating that fact.
His career numbers happen to be better than Jones' too, and Taylor has been on mostly bad teams his whole career.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 15, 2024, 12:09:01 PMThe most damning issue with Jones is that other, dramatically lower paid QBs on this team were more effective than he was behind the same line.
Even if Taylor were about the same as Jones, that wouldn't have been a good look at all. But he was in fact demonstrably better. There is simply no getting around or sugarcoating that fact.
His career numbers happen to be better than Jones' too, and Taylor has been on mostly bad teams his whole career.
Two other backups were much more aggressive and also made correct presanp reads.
Presnap reads exist before any pass rush is present, Jones inability to correctly do that to me is a huge issue. for a QB in his 5th year, this is one issue that is very hard to overlook. It really show s you where his mind is at. He made a very bad line worse.
Tommy and Taylor both had a bad line, albeit not as bad some pieces were back, but a bad line nonetheless and made them slightly better with the reads, adjustments, pocket presence and being aggressive in their throws.
Hell TT was slinging the ball down field over 15-20 yards 15% of the time, the highest % since Eli in 2011
Jones had a bad line but got flustered, played it safe and then by doing so consistently became part of the problem. I can buy the Giants wrecked him, I watched it too, but it is what it is now and he is shell shocked. The Giants owe him 69 mill so after they get another QB I suspect they will let the new QB learn behind Jones, let the Oline develop and hopefully let jones develop some kind of trade market.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 15, 2024, 12:09:01 PMThe most damning issue with Jones is that other, dramatically lower paid QBs on this team were more effective than he was behind the same line.
Even if Taylor were about the same as Jones, that wouldn't have been a good look at all. But he was in fact demonstrably better. There is simply no getting around or sugarcoating that fact.
His career numbers happen to be better than Jones' too, and Taylor has been on mostly bad teams his whole career.
All of that may be true, but it has absolutely nothing to do with this post or the play of the draft picks. They all own their performance themselves. It's just sad that some see DJ as the scapegoat for everything.